O/T Pet Peeve on Best Offers (Ebay) [Archive]

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12-21-2007, 10:22 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo I see a card on ebay which allows for a best offer. The card was sold on ebay a few weeks ago for about half the current "buy it now" price -- and I make a best offer for about the price that this very card sold for a few weeks ago. Now I know people on ebay (and otherwise) want to double their money in a few weeks but unless the rest of us are morons it's pretty easy to find out that the card being offered for sale is overpriced by 100% - based on the sale of the very card a few weeks back. Anyway, my best offer is not declined, not countered -- just ignored. WTF is up with that?

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12-21-2007, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThere is a Nebraska Indians postcard on ebay right now with a $200 BIN or Best Offer...I made an offer of about twice what the average NI postcard sells for and was turned down. It will not sell at his price and it probably would not sell to anyone but me if he lowered it to my offer. He's just wasting his time and money on ebay with such a high BIN.

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12-21-2007, 10:58 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmI dislike the whole BIN/Best Offer game. It seems like more times than not the seller is just trolling for suckers. As a seller, I don't use that method; I always put things up for auction and let the market take its course. As a buyer, when I find something that I really want that isn't offered very frequently, and I am willing to bite the bullet, I have found that an offer of about 90% of the BIN price is usually accepted. But some sellers may have a lot more 'padding' in their BIN price than that, so it is certainly worth trying lower offers too (e.g. fair market value).

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12-21-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Jason LJeff, seller is lazy and lacks courtesy Eric, I agree. I just had a seller accept my Best Offer of 88% of BIN, but unlike Jeff's situation, seller's BIN was pretty close to market to being with...

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12-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: nbrazili dont see anything wrong with BINs/Best offers on ebay. This is the seller's perception of what this card is worth. He offers it to the public. See if anyone bites or offers something near to his price. If he overprices the card, so be it....he'll have to pay the listing fees. I dont see what the difference is between a BST post stating a price with the footnote "Willing to hear offers." At most, viewing these best offers are annoying. Now, not responding to a person's offer or inquiry....that's rude. But, I've also had that on the BST as well.

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12-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: Richard Cline - RCI think that no matter what anyone thinks of BIN or best offer, the seller should at the very least show the courtesy of a response when a potential buyer submits an offer. Think of it as if it was a potential sale in person, is the seller going to totally ignore the customer? I don't think so. Again, they are just being inconsiderate and rude and probably lose potential clients this way.

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12-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanOh, and for the record, the seller received a single offer for his card -- mine -- during the entire week it was up for auction. Gee, perhaps the 100% markup had something to do with that?

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12-21-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: MattJeff - you sound very annoyed at this seller, but if he wants to overprice his cards, that's his business. I've had situations where I was able to win a card well below what it had sold for in the past. Should I then be expected to sell it below those prices as well, or would asking that amount be OK? In fact, even if a seller wanted to sell it for 10 times what it has ever sold for, I don't have an issue with it; he may be a moron and have to eat his ebay fees, but a seller can ask whatever he wants. That said, he should have the courtesy of responding to your offer.

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12-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWell the NI postcard has been listed twice and so far mine was the only offer on it....and there was one time I listed a lot of empty vintage baseball boxes...about 50 of them with a BIN of $399...when I got an offer of $50 I ignored it. Was I rude to ignore that offer? Or was it rude of the buyer to make such an insulting offer?

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12-21-2007, 11:24 AM

Posted By: leonI agree that there is no question folks should respond to all offers. A polite "no thank you" can go a long way in future dealings. With that being said I am sure you will agree that a seller can ask whatever they want to for a card. All you have to do is sort by highest price cards and you will see 22 out of the top 25 never get bids with either the BIN multiples too high, or just the same conclusion of the starting bid being multiples more than the value. It doesn't really bother me. I find it kind of amusing sometimes...People should always have the courtesy to respond ...and that especially goes for the BST area. Brian and I do want to know about crap going on over there. There was a recent transaction on the BST where the seller said they would take paypal as an option and clearly stated that in the original post, but would charge the additional 3%. The potential buyer said they would take the card and AFTER that had a problem with the 3%.....That's the wrong way to do it. IF you accept an offer you accept their terms if nothing else is negotiated up front. Adding paypal fees, on the BST, is fine and if you are a buyer please don't disregard that caveat. The seller can ask for whatever terms they want to...You don't have to agree or buy the card(s)....regards

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12-21-2007, 11:48 AM

Posted By: T206Collector<> You say "about" -- was it slightly less, slightly more or exactly the same? If it was slightly less or exactly the same, then if I was the seller I would obviously not be taking that number. Heck, that's what I bought it for, and I'm looking to turn some kind of profit. Even if it's an offer that's only slightly better than what I paid, I'd probably turn it down for the same reason. Heck, if that's what you wanted to pay for the card, then you should have bid a few weeks ago at that price. The seller should not be penalized for nabbing it while the nabbing was good and, if he got it at a below market price for some reason, then he deserves a profit. But it is rude not to respond at all to a best offer. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for my T206 blog, card galleries, articles and more!

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12-21-2007, 12:03 PM

Posted By: jeffdrum"Best Offer" is a misnomer, seller is under no obligation to accept any offer. Should be called "Make an Offer." I hit on about 40% of my offers. My impression like many others is that most people are trolling for someone who doesn't know what something is worth or doesn't care. And after all, if somebody is willing to "overpay" for something, on that day, at that time it was worth that. As I heard a retired ballplayer say of a current player, "He makes what someone is willing to pay him!" No excuse for not making a polite refusal for any remotely genuine offer.

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12-21-2007, 12:17 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree- you can decline any offer you want, but you shouldn't ignore them. Just politely say you are going to pass.

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12-21-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanit is their card and they can offer it for whatever they want. I really do not buy the whole "he paid this so sell it to me for this plus a buck" line of reasoning. I mean, if I found a 1933 Goudey Ruth for ten bucks, by that logic I am doomed to sell it for $11. I buy stuff all the time that I think is vastly undervalued. If a buyer comes along and offers me what I paid plus a little but I still think the card is undervalued, my answer is "no". If the offeror is rude (I've actually gotten offers that go something like "I know you paid X for this card so where do you get the nerve offering it for Y; I'll pay you Z") I admit that I ignore it. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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12-21-2007, 12:43 PM

Posted By: Eric Brehmboxingcardman, I hear what you are saying, but I disagree slightly. I believe, perhaps somewhat naively, that some concept of fairness is appropriate for these types of transactions. If nothing else, it builds good will between buyers and sellers. Perhaps there are very few sellers who would be swayed by 'moral' arguments as to how they should set their prices, but as a buyer I certainly feel better when I know that I haven't been taken to the cleaners on a card purchase.

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12-21-2007, 12:44 PM

Posted By: MarkThere was a card I wanted and the seller had the Buy it Now price at $450 which was about double the going rate. I offered $225 but was prepared to go higher if he countered. His response was basically 'how dare you offer me such an insulting offer compared to my buy it now price!! Never bid on any of my auctions again!!!' After listing and lowering the prices two more times, he took a best offer of $250 from another buyer. Guess my offer wasn't so insulting after all.

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12-21-2007, 01:27 PM

Posted By: jay woltI don't use the Best offer option when I sell since I feel that no one would pay the listed price as if I listed it too high knowing I'd take a lower amount. With that said. I always thought if you offer a seller a price on his lot he either accepts it or rejects it, I didn't know a response was forthcoming or even a counter offer proposal was due.

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12-21-2007, 01:49 PM

Posted By: Mark SteinbergI agree with Dan on this... a very similar situation to the Nebraska Indains Postcard... A seller was asking $500 for a $125 item that I really wanted. I offered him $200, and never heard back. I told him that he would never sell it for even close to his asking price, and he would not likely encounter a more interested potential buyer than me. Still... no reply. Of course it wnt unsold. I think some sellers are just out to see who they can ream.

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12-21-2007, 02:03 PM

Posted By: DougI haven't had a lot of luck with the best offer feature buying or selling. Usually when buying I run into a card with a buy it now that's twice what the card is worth and if I make a reasonable offer it's usually ignored or countered with a price that's barely different than the buy it now. When I sell something I usually try to list it at what I consider a fair price with a little "bargaining room", but it seems like the great majority of the offers I get are less than half of what the card is worth. Given that, I still respond to all of them. If it's close to something I'd accept I will counter with the least I'd be willing to take. If it's ridiculously low, I just politely decline it and go on.

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12-21-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: dstudebaEric - How exactly are you being taken to the cleaners if you pay fair market value?

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12-21-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: keywayI never make an offer on any of these items. Ebay is supposed to be an auction site. I am also sick of all the buy it now stuff that pops up every time there is a cheap listing price day. Ebay should open up a for sale sight for all of these people.

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12-21-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: leonThat site is called "Ebay Stores"....all of that high priced stuff that sits there not selling gets dumped on low cost, or no cost, listing days into the auction area we sift through....

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12-21-2007, 03:05 PM

Posted By: Red"The card was sold on ebay a few weeks ago for about half the current "buy it now" price -- and I make a best offer for about the price that this very card sold for a few weeks ago. " You offered the buyer of the card about what he just paid for it? Out of curiosity how much money were you allowing him to make. Was it enough to cover the postage he also had to pay when buying the card and the Ebay and PayPal fees he must now pay when selling the card? If the card just sold a few weeks ago you could have won the card at that time with just one more bid, thereby cutting him out of the loop completely. It's also possible that if you placed that next bid he still would have won it at one bid or even multiple bids higher. Maybe he was prepared to pay 50% higher than he ended up paying, so why would he want to sell it now for less than what he was prepared to pay.

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12-21-2007, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRed, fair questions. The card was won a few weeks back with one bid -- the starting price on the card. No one bid on it for a week because it was overpriced as it was. Finally, the winner put a snipe in at the end and was the only bidder for the card -- thus making it clear to me and everyone else who watched the card that it was overpriced -- except to this one bidder. So maybe the bidder was willing to pay 50% more for the card; however, not a single bidder was willing to even pay what he paid for it -- and then he immediately tried to flip it for nearly double the price he paid for it, just a few weeks later. Still think my offer to pay what he paid for it was a bad offer, not even worthy of a response?

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12-21-2007, 03:24 PM

Posted By: Eric Brehmdstudeba -- good question, I suppose you are right that I shouldn't feel ripped off as long as I get a price that is fair with respect to the current market. And of course, as a buyer, the choice is always mine. But I guess it depends on the situation. For example if Levi Bleam (707 Sportscards) lists a card on eBay or on his website, I can choose to either pay his price, or not pay his price. I am not going to call Levi and ask him who he got the card from, how much he paid, how long he has been sitting on it, etc., just so I can feel good about the purchase. If I did, he would probably laugh in my face anyhow. I was thinking more about situations where I am personally acquainted with the seller, and/or happen to know the sales history of the card in question. This happened recently where a card I wanted was listed as BIN/Best Offer on eBay, and I just happened to know how much the seller paid for the card, when he paid it, and to whom. I made my offer based on what I thought was a reasonable profit for him, and informed him that that was what my offer was based on, which he accepted. I wasn't willing to pay any more than that, even though maybe I could have afforded it, just because of the principle of the thing. As a result, I think everyone came out happy on the deal. I hope that makes sense.

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12-21-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Cobby33I love (not) the sellers who do not set an auto-decline at a given floor and email back, making some stupid comment about how they would "rather burn the card" than sell it at that price. Use auto-decline, Einstein, unless of course you enjoy being a tool.

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12-21-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI will never understand the business model of having hundreds of items priced well above their market value, and virtually none of them will sell. And then a couple of months later, the same overpriced group will appear and likewise little to none of it will sell. I like to start things low and let it ride. I achieve 100% sales, and while a few items may go lower than I hoped, the average is always equal to or somewhat better than I expected. But to each his own.

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12-21-2007, 04:00 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanCobby: I didn't know there's an auto-decline function. Cool. I'll have to check that out. Eric: I think perhaps where I differ most from other views here is over the idea that telling me what I paid for the card is a negotiation point. When I sell I really don't care why the buyer wants the card, who it is for, what he plans to do with it, whether it finishes a set, etc. It will not affect my price. I know what I paid for it and I know what I will take to sell it. Anyone who thinks that the vast majority of sellers will be cowed by a recital of what they paid for the card is just kidding themselves. Similarly, when I buy a card I do not begrudge the seller his profit as long as I feel I got a good deal. And I'm not just saying that. A few years ago I watched a seller buy a $3K+ card from a walk-up for $250. I offered him $1,500 on the spot, which he refused, and later I bought the card for $2,500, which was a fair price on a very scarce card. Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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12-21-2007, 04:00 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldOne of my favorite sales I ever made was when I offered a card for a $9.99 starting price and a BIN of $500.00 (what I wanted to get for the card). I bidder rushed to bid on the card to get rid of the BIN function. As the 10 day auction played out, the initial bidder who bid instead of using the BIn won the card - for almost $870.00. Needless to say, I was happy.

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12-21-2007, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Eric Brehmboxingcardman - well, I suppose that if you are buying a card, then using the seller's investment in a card as a negotiation point (if you happen to know what it is) is always worth a try: "Hey you only paid $250 for that $3000 card, so you will be making out like a bandit if you sell it to me for $2500."

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12-21-2007, 05:04 PM

Posted By: Ed IveyI recently bid what I thought was market on one and got an instant rejection, like an out of office auto reply.

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12-21-2007, 05:17 PM

Posted By: leonIf you know what someone paid for something then that can certainly go into the thought process of an offer...however, to me what is much more important, is the fair market value. I have a standard answer for most folks that ask what I paid for something....it's usually "$1.00". (note obvious sarcasm).....I do use what I paid for something in determining a price but I use what I feel is fair market value more so.....I always answer questions and offers...no matter how ridiculous. Recently I was offered $225 for a card that I had priced at about $600....I paid $500 for it....I politely declined but the potential buyer and I had about 10 good emails that evening chatting about other stuff. I am sure if I was an ass, or didn't respond, we would have never had that nice dialogue....best regards

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12-21-2007, 05:43 PM

Posted By: Joe D.I am beginning to dislike both sides of the Ebay Best Offer process. It seems like a broken tool more often than not. Jeff - the guy is fishing - plain and simple. He is hoping to catch something. Either that or he actually believes his ask is close to market value. I see a card on eBay right now that is 3.5 times the price it sold for here on N54 back in August. 3.5 Times! Somewhat hopeless.... buyers are faced with cards way overpriced and are conditioned to offer half and less. Then sellers who list a reasonable ask price receive those '1/2 and less' lowball offers anyway. nobody wins.

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12-21-2007, 06:55 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmLeon -- you are a wise man, with a fair and balanced attitude, and I think you are right, a buyer should be motivated only by what price they can get, not by how much the seller might or might not be gaining out of a deal. Push comes to shove, I am not in any big hurry to do business with a seller who makes small profits, if I don't get a good price on my end. On the other hand, I do think it is true, in baseball card trading as well as any other business, that a savvy buyer can use knowledge of the seller's position to their advantage in negotiating a price. What else is new. But I'm just a mathematician who lives in a dream world of ideals. And for some crazy reason likes vintage baseball cards.

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12-21-2007, 07:27 PM

Posted By: Cat (ret.)Jeff: I don't know if you mentioned this or not, but if your offer is unanswered and has not expired he may simply be waiting to see if he gets a higher offer. If there is no higher offer, he may accept yours. Offers have a certain time before they expire (72 hours ?). He may still come back at you and accept your offer, if the auction is still live. I have had good luck with the best offer function. But right now, with a soft market, I am less inclined to BIN cards or make Best Offers since I feel like I am trying to catch falling knives.

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12-21-2007, 07:47 PM

Posted By: James GalloHere is one thing that has not been brought up. What if something is so rare that there are no price points or very very few. How do you price it aside from a best offer? Often I let stuff build up so I will run a bunch of auctions at once but want to get it listed to "be seen". I have a lot of stuff in my ebay store and most have best offer options. I am always willing to consider something however if I have something listed for $600 and someone offers me $11, that is rude on their part and they don't get a response. Let's assume that the piece is even overpriced and is on;y worth $300, is $11 a serious offer? Come on... Why are you wasting my time by reading the offer.... I listed a few high grade m101-5s and based my prices on other cards in people's store. After talking to someone about the card i made a deal that gets me about $500 in value. if I was offered the $500 cash I probably would have taken it, however for a high grade early card it is hard to price. So I think these are a few reasonable points as to why people have high BIN and why some people never get a response. James G Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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12-21-2007, 08:52 PM

Posted By: JKEric, Lets assume a seller picks up a card for 2k that has a fair market value (FMV) of 7k and lists it on ebay with a BIN for the FMV. If I understand your position correctly, you would expect that seller, assuming you knew the history of the card, to sell it to you for less than the FMV, say 5k (or 2k less than FMV) as he will still make a 3k profit. Fair enough. However, Im curious if the situation was reversed, say the seller picks up the card for 2k, but its only worth 1k. Assuming once again that you know the seller and the history of the card, are you willing to pay the seller 3k (or 2k above FMV) to insure that he still makes a profit?

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12-21-2007, 10:19 PM

Posted By: Dan Koteleswhy would you only offer what or close to what he paid. He may have bought it relatively cheap and wants to make a little. You arent necessarily saying you do not want hime to make a profit...but what are you saying ? Plus ,if they recognize your name and realize you have a little cabbage....ah ,ya never know.

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12-22-2007, 03:39 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Whilst we find the discussion on Buy It Now Offerings on E Bay to be quite interesting, it is, in our opinion academic. We must remember four facts (1) EBAY is a business. The objectives of the seller and buyer are diametrically opposite. The seller wants to receive the maximum price and the buyer wants to acquire the item for as small an amount as possible (2) There is not an established market for baseball cards. If one looks at a random analysis of 100 pre-1960 high grade cards on Vintage Card prices, one finds wild swings in many individual card prices. If one looks at the sale of the same card in a Goodwin, Mastro, Memory Lane and Huggins Scott Auction a (all within a 12 month period) prices often vary as much as 200-300% (3) Whilst it is not appropriate to ignore a response, we can assume that the dealer or seller recognizes the differences between a "serious offer" and someone who is nothing more than an annoyance (4) Although the vast majority of BIN cards do not sell, some do and are later auctioned at record prices. Over the past year a distinguished dealer had an E 93 PSA 7 HOF on E Bay- for a high, but fair BIN/Best Offer Price. Finally the card made its way to an auction house. The price realized with the buyer's premium was within 5% of the last BIN price This is America. Capitalism will always rule. Buyer beware. Seller beware. Happy New Year! Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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12-22-2007, 03:59 AM

Posted By: MikeWhen Ebay becomes like a show we are all in trouble. Having attended about a dozen Nationals it is amazing how many dealers like to display their collections (not inventory) with astronomical prices. Cards that go for $100 on Ebay are priced over $250.00 with little room for movement. Maybe these are the same people who also have high buy it nows on Ebay. When I see a high BIN, I dont even make an offer figuring the seller would not be realistic based on the outrageous initial offer to sell.

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12-22-2007, 04:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- if your assertion is true that prices in various auction houses can have as much as 200-300% swing, something sounds fishy. There is always a margin of error in any market, but that's too large a margin. You can't have two houses that are exactly the same next door to each other and one is priced at 300K and the other at 700K. Your example, if accurate, suggests some market chicanery.

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12-22-2007, 04:47 AM

Posted By: Bobby BinderBarry, It is true that the prices realized in auction houses such as Goodwin and Memory Lane bring in much higher amounts in the 300%+ range even for cards that commonly sell on eBay. I am not so sure that something funny is happening in this case. I think there are some people that collect that do not use eBay and when a card they need for their registry is available they have bidding wars. They do not want to deal with the hassles of eBay and sellers they do not know. They are comfortable over paying and dealing with the same auction houses to build their sets or collections.

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12-22-2007, 04:52 AM

Posted By: Glen TurnerI have called and e-mailed Ebay many times asking them if they would put a box you could check that would allow you not to see BIN. What do you all think of that?

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12-22-2007, 04:56 AM

Posted By: Ed Hans"The hassles of eBay"? I can't imagine a much simpler or safer process, with PayPal protection and the feedback system. Compare that to some of the horror stories we hear (and those we do not) from auction houses. Ebay is certainly not perfect, but neither are the auction houses.

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12-22-2007, 05:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBobby- I'm not sure that ebay is that much of a hassle. If you had a choice of buying say a PSA 8 on ebay for $1000, or from a major auction house for $3000, I can guarantee you there are enough people out there who are willing to deal with the hassle. Like I said, something isn't connecting here.

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12-22-2007, 05:38 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmGlen -- I think if you do a Search in eBay, you can click tabs at the top of the search results page that will let you display Auction items only, or Buy It Now items only. Thus if you click the "Auctions" tab, the Buy It Now items won't be visible. Is that what you are asking?

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12-22-2007, 06:09 AM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman"It is true that the prices realized in auction houses such as Goodwin and Memory Lane bring in much higher amounts in the 300%+ range even for cards that commonly sell on eBay. I am not so sure that something funny is happening in this case." Bobby, you're joking, right?

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12-22-2007, 06:11 AM

Posted By: MattEric - I'm pretty sure that the "Auction" selection just eliminates store listings, but active listings with a fixed price/buy it now remain.

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12-22-2007, 06:21 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmNot to belabor this point, but okay, I'm convinced that a seller's investment in a card should generally be irrelevant as far as what I should be willing to pay for it. I should really only be concerned about whether the price is acceptable to me or not. There are two cases recently however where I did take the seller's potential profit into account: (1) In this case, which I think I described previously, the seller bought a card for about $2600 and then immediately offered it for sale (BIN/Best Offer) with a $1000+ mark-up. He knew I needed the card for one of my sets and contacted me directly to see if I was interested. And I happened to know what he had paid for it. I was willing to pay a strong price for the card (it was a low pop card that is rarely offered), but I told him $1000 profit on an immediate turn-around didn't seem fair, so I offered $3000, which he accepted and closed the listing. Had I not known the history behind the card I might have offered more for it, closer to the listed BIN price, to make sure I won it. On the other hand, heck I don't know, maybe my sense of 'fairness' didn't really have much to do with it -- I was willing to pay $3000, and he was willing to sell it for that, so for us, on that day, that was 'market value'. (2) I bought a large lot of high grade vintage cards from someone who was liquidating a portion of their collection. He offered the cards to me at the price he originally paid for each of them, with a premium added (i.e. profit for him) based on a fixed percentage of the original price. So the pricing for each card was not based on current market value, but rather on the seller getting a reasonable return on his investment. In some cases this meant I got a good deal on the card (if his original investment was low), and in others I probably paid above market, after his profit percentage was factored in. Generally, the cards had not appreciated significantly in value since the seller originally acquired them, so on average, I probably ended up paying more for the cards, to get them all in one fell swoop, than if I had been willing to wait patiently for each of them to turn up somewhere for sale in the future. Maybe I'm a fool for paying above market for anything (though as Bruce says that can be an elusive concept, especially for relatively scarce items), but the pricing scheme offered by the seller in this case seemed fair enough to me and I went for it. I also did another deal, with a different seller, for another large lot of high grade cards, but in that case, the pricing was based on estimated FMV. I have no idea what the seller's original investment in any of the cards was. In this case I probably paid closer to FMV than I did in case (2) above, so in retrospect, this deal worked out better for me. By the way, back on the main topic, I have had reasonable offers ignored by BIN sellers. They just let the offer expire without ever contacting me. I didn't think that was terribly rude, but it did sort of leave me hanging; I would rather in such situations that they decline my offer, so I can either consider making another offer, or just move on to something else.

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12-22-2007, 07:44 AM

Posted By: martindl Jeff, You said that the guy who is selling the card was the only bidder when he won it and that it was clear to you and everyone else that he paid 50% too much for it. You're now making him an offer for about what he won it for, which I assume is still 50% more than the card is worth. You didn't want the card the first go around and surely you don't want it still. Sounds to me like your intent was to just aggravate the guy versus really buy the card but yet you want to complain that he's not being courteous?

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12-22-2007, 07:49 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMartin, I didn't say he won it for 50% more than what it was worth. I said he put in the only bid for an item that no one else thought was worth as much as he did. I suppose I presumed that when he saw that no one else even bid on the card he might have believed that he overpaid. I offered him basically the same amount of money that he paid which would have allowed him to get out of the card without a loss. How could I have been seeking to annoy him in that sense? The fact that he immediately tried to flip the card -- with no bids at all -- might have been more annoying to him I think.

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12-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Posted By: SteveJeff with all due respect, what you have been saying makes little to no sense. (To me at least) How do you know that he is the only person that thought it was worth what he paid for it? Just because he was the only bidder does not make that a reality. Maybe for that day it does, it is very possible that other people feel it was worth what it sold for only they were not online or saw the auction, or for 100 other reasons. I agree with you that he could have replied to your offer but he is not obligated to. Also, and in closing, just because he put it up on ebay does not mean he wants to sell it, he may be seeing how many offers he would get. I can think of more reasons as to why people put things up on ebay w/o wanting to sell, (unless it is at there price) To say you wanted to help him get out from under a bad buy is a stretch IMO. (Even though I believe that was your intent. Steve edited to add my first name.

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12-22-2007, 01:59 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, I wasn't looking to help the seller do anything but sell me a card. As for your belief that there may have been others interested in the card, two facts: 1) No one but him bid on it the first time. 2) Weeks later, no one but me put an offer in on the card at his inflated price. End of story.

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12-22-2007, 02:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm not sure I am comfortable with the idea of putting something up for auction, on ebay or elsewhere, without any intention of selling it. I know it's done, but I don't think it's a really such a great practice.

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12-22-2007, 02:15 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethMany sellers are looking for that one buyer either impatient, naive, price-indifferent, or stupid to pay a crazy price. What's wrong with that? If it's my card I can do what I like with it, no?

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12-22-2007, 02:16 PM

Posted By: SteveJeff Since you feel it is the end of story i will not go any further. Steve

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12-22-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYes Peter, anyone can do what they want, and ebay allows a reserve. However, I'm just talking about good faith dealing, that's all. If an object has a fair market value of $1000 and you reserve it for $2500, you either have no intention of selling it or you are looking to rip someone off. Technically allowed, not the greatest way to do business. Just my opinion.

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12-22-2007, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethUnless there is a misrepresentation as to the value of a card, I don't see an ethical problem. If it's wrong to overcharge for a baseball card at a fixed price sale, isn't it equally wrong to allow someone to bid a lunatic amount in an auction?

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12-22-2007, 03:06 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, I don't think it's ethically wrong to try to lure someone into buying a card at a wildly inflated price; however, it is at the very least boorish and scummy.

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12-22-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff articulated it better than I did. There is no ethical boundary crossed, it's just bad form. People have sometimes come to me asking if I would sell them a special piece from my collection. I often respond I will only do so if they offer a crazy price. That is fine, because it is between the two of us. But once I put something on ebay or in my catalog auction, there is sort of an unwritten agreement that I am prepared to sell the item for what the market will bear. If that weren't the case, then I should just try to sell it privately.

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12-22-2007, 03:21 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThe whole desperate attempt to try to lure someone into spending more money on a card than what it is worth is just offensive, sorry. As an example, a couple years back I had been buying up cards of a certain player and spending a lot of money on the cards. I then received an unsolicited offer from a board member to sell me a "minor league card" of the player -- sight unseen -- for some obscene amount of money. Of course, the "team" the player was supposedly playing for on the card was a team the player never was on! I questioned the seller a bit about the card and received some vague, ridiculous answers. I then asked for a scan which, of course, never came. I know that selling cards isn't my vocation but I think trying to lure buyers into spending too much money on a card is just a scummy thing to do. This is our hobby that we love. Perhaps it wouldn't be so much to ask that we treat each other with a bit more respect when it comes to buying/selling.

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12-22-2007, 03:51 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethGentlemen I don't see the big deal, and I certainly would not call guys whose business model works this way (one about whom frequent complaints have been lodged in this very forum comes to mind) scummy. If a guy prices a card too high, don't buy it. "End of story" lol. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> This is baseball cards, not home heating oil or food.

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12-22-2007, 03:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI don't think it's a big deal either. I just don't care for it. That's all.

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12-22-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI don't see the difference between a lunatic paying a crazy price on ebay or placing a crazy bid in an auction. In both cases if a buyer wants to pay that price, so be it.

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12-22-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Steve<<< But once I put something on ebay or in my catalog auction, there is sort of an unwritten agreement that I am prepared to sell the item for what the market will bear.>>>> Barry I agree with you, however, who is to say what someone else can start an item in which they own at? If they want to set a price that is 2x-10x what previous examples sold for that is there business. Jeff, In the last Goodwin auction a card, (Cepeda -Maris) 1962 topps sold for thousands when it can be bought on ebay all day long for 180.00. Knowing Bill Goodwin and his reputation I do not think any hanky panky went on, So, it does happen. A CU thread was devoted to it. My take (in this example) is 2 guys that do not buy from ebay must have gotten into a war, or thought the card had a shot at a nine. I have seen other examples as well. Steve

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12-22-2007, 04:09 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethPerhaps Bill should have stepped in and told the bidders they were overpaying. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 05:09 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAnybody is free to do whatever he wants. And if two people want to bid up a 180.00 common to thousands of dollars, that is fine too. All I am saying is my preference is to start items low and let bidders decide the final price. When I look at ebay I ignore all lots that have a high starting bid, and zero bids on them. I will only participate when I see a lot that has started low and has some activity. That is my preference. It is neither right nor wrong.

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12-22-2007, 05:11 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanPeter's right. A card is worth exactly what two people are willing to buy and sell it for. It isn't "scummy" or "bad form" or anything else to offer a commodity for sale for a price of your choosing; it is simple capitalism at its most basic form. You don't like the price, don't buy the card, but don't badmouth the guy selling it for trying to make a buck. It seems to me that deep down inside the reason some folks are so peeved about the situation is that they want the card and can't have it at the price they want to pay. I mean, if it was a "overpriced" can of corn you'd just chuckle and buy another one at another store and wouldn't think twice about it, right? Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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12-22-2007, 05:16 PM

Posted By: RedWithout knowing what the card is it's hard for us to judge how crazy, or justified, the guy's price is. If it comes up for sale frequently then it's not worth bothering the guy and you just buy it someplace else. If it's rarely offered and hard to value then the original seller starting it at a high price made it hard for potential buyers to ascertain a value. People may have been unsure what the card was worth and some figured on being able to contact the seller after the listing ended with no bids to make a deal. The one person brave enough to place a bid stopped that from happening. It's possible that had the seller started it out at $1 and then allowed a bunch of people unsure of its value determine the final price, it could have far exceeded the BIN he had it priced at. Say the item had a $1000 BIN and you just didn't feel confident enough to make that bid. It's later auctioned and all the participants in the auction now see that there are other people willing to pay 500, 600, 800, 900, 1100, etc. You now have the confidence to bid 1200 knowing that somebody else was willing to pay 1100. Another guy or two starts thinking the same way and the item winds up selling for a lot more, maybe more than it should sell for. But the winner's happy because he only had to pay one bid more than the underbidder.

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12-22-2007, 05:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAdam- part of "trying to make a buck" is to treat people respectfully and have them as repeat customs. If you treat them shabbily you will be making less bucks than if you do them right. I think that's Economics 101.

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12-22-2007, 05:42 PM

Posted By: pasAdam and I skipped Econ 101 and went straight to 102. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 05:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThat's why nobody gets what I am talking about...you were absent that day! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 06:30 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRedman, your points are well taken. And I don't begrudge anyone making a buck--God knows I helped plenty of people make a buck this year. I just don't like to be treated badly when I offer fair market value for a card. As for the possibility of shill bidding in auctions, with all respect, other than Barry Sloate I would not give anyone a pass without looking at their books first (you know, the books that haven't been lost or destroyed yet).

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12-22-2007, 06:38 PM

Posted By: pasYeah I still find it hard to believe two someones bid that much for that 62 card.

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12-22-2007, 07:05 PM

Posted By: JulianIs Julian a communist or just an idiot.

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12-22-2007, 07:20 PM

Posted By: pasHe might be both, are they mutually exclusive?

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12-22-2007, 07:21 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMark M., like I've said -- more time billing hours and less time taking anonymous shots at a lawyer who actually matters might allow you to give up the record for being the oldest law firm associate in North America. Just a thought. edited last name (leon)

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12-22-2007, 07:24 PM

Posted By: pas(Edits Lichtman's post to add smiley) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><----------<-----------

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12-22-2007, 07:27 PM

Posted By: leonWhomever "Julian" is needs to email me before they will be allowed to post anymore. ..regards

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12-22-2007, 07:30 PM

Posted By: MWJulian, You've got it all wrong. Sloate is the Communist, not Lichtman.

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12-22-2007, 07:36 PM

Posted By: pasHey no fair picking on Sloate after he has gone to bed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 07:40 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanHahaha! It's 1040 pm -- that means we have at least 9 hours before the first Cheerios hit the bottom of the bowl in the Sloate household!!!!

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12-22-2007, 08:04 PM

Posted By: JulianFair enough MW. Julian is the idiot. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 08:07 PM

Posted By: JoannAnd thus ended the brief and completely forgettable visit by Julian to Net54.

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12-22-2007, 08:09 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMark M.-the guy who by the age of 40 who is still required to buy Pop Tarts for the senior partners on the mornings of trial -- that guy is considered to be the idiot. So that makes you the idiot. edited last name (leon)

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12-22-2007, 09:34 PM

Posted By: JKNow this is entertainment <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-22-2007, 11:43 PM

Posted By: XanaduNowHey Billy, your V-neck sweater sucks and you're a loser. Oops, sorry guys. I thought this was the thread where we took pot shots at arbitrary people for no other reason than the fact that we're perpetually nine years old. Arthur

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12-23-2007, 04:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateGeez- taking pot shots at an old man after he's gone to bed. Okay, so I'm a Cheerio eating Communist- so sue me! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-23-2007, 05:59 AM

Posted By: Mark HoltHow did this thread become yet another personal attack train wreck?

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12-23-2007, 06:04 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMark -- it all started with Mark M. getting passed over for partner at his law firm yet again. Be thankful that he took his aggressions out on me on an internet forum instead of grabbing a rifle and going to the top of a tower..... edited last name (leon)

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12-23-2007, 06:31 AM

Posted By: Mark HoltLooks like you are dishing out most of the attacks and insults Jeff....particularly appropriate during the Holiday season in your mind no doubt.....

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12-23-2007, 06:41 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMark, I'm not one to get abused anonymously on the internet if I can help it. Sorry if that doesn't comport with your turn the other cheek mentality during the holidays.

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12-23-2007, 06:42 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayHow do you know that Julian is Mark? The reason I ask is that Mark's a pretty nice guy and I would not expect this from him.

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12-23-2007, 06:43 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, if you'd like I can email you privately. Anyone who has been stalked by McCleary via the net would know that this can only be him.

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12-23-2007, 06:43 AM

Posted By: leonSomeone is anonymously being an ass. I don't blame Jeff a bit for retaliating. It would be nice if we could all get along but obviously this "Julian" is testing the unlimited amount of IP's I can block. BTW, I am tracing them too....so we'll see how far I can get...First one was from the Chicago area...

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12-23-2007, 06:44 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSteve- for the record, Mark sent me a series of private emails that were borderline deranged. I finally had to ask him to stop. I think the man has some issues.

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12-23-2007, 07:38 AM

Posted By: Steve Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a healthy New Year to all. Steve

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12-23-2007, 07:47 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, don't be afraid to support me when I'm right, really, it won't hurt too much. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-23-2007, 07:54 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayDon't get me wrong (yes I know you were referring to Steve Winpitcher) but if as someone has suggest it was "Julian" who started the Reinstate Peter C. thread then I think you're on to something. I recall how Mark would come on in defense of something you may have said regarding Peter's banal discourses.

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12-23-2007, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSteve, you're right: "Julian" started the "Reinstate Chaos" thread as well and in it claimed I was feeilng inferior about going to a lesser law school than Chao (I went to Duke -- I'm deeply ashamed). Curiously, this same comment was made by Mark M. many many months ago when he was defending Chao and attacking me. Plus, M. has been known to act irrationally via email and attack others solely because of their purported friendship with me (see Sloate, Barry). No one else has ever brought up this very ridiculous argument but M. and "Julian" and there were many months in between their posts. With all respect, Ray Charles could see through "Julian"'s ruse. I started this thread to discuss a practice on ebay that annoys me. I didn't out the auction. I didn't out the seller or publicly chastise him. I simply discussed the issue in as vague of a manner as possible -- and I very well may be wrong on this issue as I've noted. None of that justifies an anonymous personal attack. No doubt I'm tough on certain people on this board but never in an anonymous manner and very rarely do I start it (Peter Chao excepted -- but for God's sake, I couldn't take anymore, I am human, really), though I do respond with gusto. I suppose what I am trying to say to "Julian" is I don't mind the personal attacks: but a) be a man and don't do it anonymously; and b) be prepared for a response which you may not enjoy. edited last names *(leon)

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12-23-2007, 08:04 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThose were the private emails I was getting on a daily basis- blaming me for being part of a clique that was insulting Peter and trying to get him kicked off the board. Frankly, I thought I was supportive of him, and certainly more civil than many.

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12-23-2007, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinI have from now until Wednesday with NO obligations -- and the entertainment value of this thread is good <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> In all seriousness; however, guys (and Joann) can't we declare an holiday truce; shoot the soldiers in World War I could do so; why can't we? See link below <a href="http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/a/christmastruce_3.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/a/christmastruce_3.htm</a> I propose a holiday season truce on personal attacks on this board. Does anyone wish to be a second Regards Rich

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12-23-2007, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Dave SRich--just jumped thru this thread for the 1st time. What started as a totally appropriate topic to alot of guys and gal on here, twisted unbelievably into childish B.S. I'll gladly second...but doubt what good it'll do..

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12-23-2007, 08:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think parts of this discussion are worthwhile because there is a troll coming on this board anonymously and disturbing threads, and we are trying to figure out who it is and why he is doing it. The conversation has been civil so far (except for the troll himself).

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12-23-2007, 08:27 AM

Posted By: SteveOk now I am confused. I thought all along jeff was replying to Steve M. I'll end my postings as Steve D from now on. Steve D

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12-23-2007, 09:25 AM

Posted By: pasReinstate Julian!!

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12-23-2007, 10:17 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmIf I could interrupt for a second to re-visit something Red said Friday night ... because I think he made an astute observation, that may not have been fully appreciated here. Seems to me that when an item is in high demand but low supply, auctioning it is often more effective than setting a (high) fixed price for it, because the auction process itself may reveal to potential buyers, as Red suggested, what the 'market value' of the item really is. That may partly explain why auctions (on eBay and elsewhere) typically receive a lot more attention, and in many cases even bring higher sales prices than, fixed price BIN listings or dealer inventories. I realize that those who participate in 'bidding wars' may be operating with a false sense of security about the price level that is reasonable to bid for a particular item (i.e. that could likely be realized again in the future if the item were re-sold), and that the whole process can spiral out of control on occasion, but that is all part of the game. I'm sure the auction format is also popular with many buyers because they may hope to get an item for less than it has sold for in the past, if a particular auction for some reason doesn't attract a lot of bidders. But I think that is fairly unlikely to occur with high demand, low supply items such as I am talking about. (Usually all you need are at least two people who really want an item to get the bidding to rise to at least the 'market' rate.) From a selling perspective, I realize there is some risk that if you auction an item you won't recoup your investment. But I still find it puzzling that so many sellers on eBay use Buy It Now with unrealistically high prices, or run auctions with very high starting bids (which is practically the same thing). Most of the time the stuff just sits there, with no action. It cycles through and you see the same listing over and over again. It has been suggested that these sellers are just patiently waiting for the right (impatient, ignorant, or rich) buyer to come along and pay their price. Perhaps I am missing something? edited to add: Red's post on this subject was actually Thursday night - way back in this thread

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12-23-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: dstudebaThis is the most disgraceful thread I have read in a long time. Just incredible. Steve, you're right: "Julian" started the "Reinstate Chaos" thread as well and in it claimed I was feeilng inferior about going to a lesser law school than Chao (I went to Duke -- I'm deeply ashamed). Mark was not the only person to see this or remember it, just the only person to post about it. I am as likely to be Julian as the next guy. For any personal attacks : I am a computer programmer who went to Northwestern.

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12-23-2007, 11:36 AM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenI go out Xmas shopping and miss what I guess is a jurisprudential pot shot taken at Jeff by one anonymous "Julian," aka idiot. I feel like I'm trying to follow an episode of 24 after missing the preceding couple of episodes. That'll teach me to put off my Xmas shopping till the last few days. Anyway Jeff, I'm sure you don't need me to defend you.

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12-23-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Mark MJeff, I am not your anonymous poster. I barely read n54 since I asked Leon to delete me from the members' list a couple of months ago, I have not posted on here since then and I haven't thought of you since then. I could care less about your opinions on sellers' practices, I would not have opened this thread if your remarks were not brought to my attention. I did take issue with your over-the-top attacks toward peter c., I'd had dinner with Peter and Steve Murray around the time that you suggested the unabomber might have blown off one of his arms. I didn't use an anonymous login then and I have not done so now (actually, I've never used an anonymous login on any forum). About the same time I had my membership deleted, I did email Barry to delete my auction account solely because he was friends with you. Perhaps that seems odd to you, but I couldn't see paying buyer/seller commissions to a friend of yours while you were periodically posting similar statements about me being a 40 year-old associate carrying briefcases for senior partners. There simply are other places to buy and sell cards. Your statements about me are untrue and I believe that makes them defamatory. You've suggested to any client or potential client who might read this thread that I am a low-level associate (world's oldest..haha), passed over for promotion, who fetches food for senior attorneys. These statements are all untrue. I was promoted to Special Counsel earlier this year. And of course I'm not doing junior associate work as you imply. By using my full name, I have to think you are purposely posting these inaccuracies in an attempt to adversely affect my ability to get clients and/or my status at my employer. Again, I believe that's defamation. Leon, thanks for tracing the IP address. I know, per your email, that you are reluctant to delete Jeff's posts, but anything you can do to help get him to stop posting about me would be appreciated. I already tried quitting the forum, but that doesn't seem to have helped.

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12-23-2007, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMark, nice to see you using your full name. I think I'd be more impressed if not for your repeated "deranged" emails to Barry Sloate in which you attacked him for being my friend. Sorry, I consider Barry to be about as normal as they come and as he has noted your behavior was bizarre. As for your apparent threat of legal action please be advised that there will be a countersuit -- and based on our relative incomes I would argue that I have the potential for more damages. You can't disparage me on an internet chat board and then cry when you get it back. If I recall you started it many months ago and then ran away, complaining loudly to Leon via emails, Barry, etc. when your nose was bloodied. I rarely initiate an attack but I usually finish quite well.

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12-23-2007, 03:19 PM

Posted By: Al SimeoneWOW! Im going to go hide on the memorabilia side for awhile and talk to Dan B. about his Wagner decal bat! I can see myself getting in a lot of trouble over here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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12-23-2007, 03:28 PM

Posted By: KeywayI am a fairly new poster on this board, but after reading this thread I wonder why the person in charge does not delete it. Let all the kiddies go to a kiddie board an mouth off to eachother. It really has no place here.

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12-23-2007, 03:30 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSince my name is in the middle of this I guess I should say a few things. Mark- I never knew you well but we had a cordial relationship and did some business. To ask to be deleted from my mailing list because I am friends with Jeff was very strange to say the least. Second, you accused me of being in a clique with Jeff and others to disparage Peter Chao. I always felt I was respectful to Peter and when he was attacked, which was often, I just stayed out of it. And you thought I was rude for criticizing Peter's grammar because English is in fact his second language. Well, about a week later Peter was having trouble with something he wrote on the board and actually asked for my help, publicly no less. So I think you treated me unfairly, and sent me more emails than was necessary for such a trivial matter. With that, I will let you and Jeff duke it out (hey Jeff, get the pun "Duke" it out).