ESPN & THE MITCHELL STEROIDS REPORT

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>There is a report on ESPN2 that Roger Clemens former trainer obtained steroids.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>That's old news...I think. I read somewhere about a year ago that his trainer and former bullpen catcher in Toronto was tied to the steroids investigation. I believe that the falling out between Roger Clemens and manager Tim Johnson was more related to Clemens' relationship with this trainer than it was the whole Viet Nam story. Now that I think about it though I might not have read that, but got that secondhand at a Lincoln Saltdogs game where Tim Johnson is the manager. Anyway I think there's going to be some real shockers today when the Mitchell report comes out.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>if involved , definetely would tell you why he has acted weird in signing a contract the past couple of years.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Clemens will be named in the Mitchell report according to ESPN.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Apparently a number of Yankees will be named. Wouldn't it be shorter just to make a list of those who didn't partake?

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Report due at 2 PM EST and Selig to have a presser at 4:30 EST.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I read a story that said some of the names will shock you and I thought to myself,yeah if youre the most naive person in the world. There couldnt be a name on the list that would shock me because i work at a restaurant that has alot of customers from locals gym's and I've seen plenty of people who have done one thing or another and they range from the obvious to people you wouldnt have guessed in a million years. That might be why these steroid investigations dont bother me in the least when names come out,it's not like only a few people in the world do them.<br /><br /> Only the people who actually got caught after the rules were in place are guilty of cheating in my mind and look at some of those people,again ones you wouldve never guessed. Some of the minor leaguers who get caught, theyre 155 pounds soaking wet. Dan Serafini was the latest guy to be caught among major leaguers,hes 6"1 185 lb lefty reliever. Not the kind of person everyone is on the witch hunt for,he doesnt throw hard and he hasnt hit a home run in his career,so if anyone is surprised by a name that could be on the report,youre in some wierd type of denial of whats going on around

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Posted By: <b>Rob Scales</b><p>It might also explain why he threw the bat shard at Piazza...

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>to see A-Rod's name.<br />might see Jr....I hope not, but all the injuries make him suspect.<br />Clemens was an obvious one<br /><br />Most of the Mets and Orioles will likely be named<br /><br />and probably Honus Wagner (I mean, look at those arms he had!)<br /><br />Pete Rose will probably be named too...just because.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>According to a source, no current Mets are named.<br />Several Yankees will be named,,, several means more than 2.<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Andy Pettite has just been named by ESPN.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p><i>Pete Rose will probably be named too...just because.<br /></i><br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> That was funny.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I have heard that Damon, Farnsworth, Petitte and Clemens are on the list.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>makes me wonder, "what real effect will Bonds' alleged (or actual) use have on his HOF chances and legacy?"

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>If only they had all stuck to the Babe's way - hot dogs and beer. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Bonds will not get into the HOF now, and Clemens won't either, depending on how bad he comes out of this.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Damn....Jason Varitek named in the report. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Hopefully all will be banned from ever entering the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>There won't be a formal ban, because there will not be any real proof other than hearsay...and none of this will go to court. But I think there will be an informal agreement amongst the writers to keep these players out. There may be a movement many years down the road when a lot of these steroid era players enter their twilight where some sympathy votes may start happening.<br /><br />If nearly everyone was on steroids doesn't that even the playing field?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Glad I'm not an 'investor' in the shiny stuff. Albert Pujols will be named in the report!!!

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>I have deleted this list of alleged players, due to errors by NBC.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Interesting story on the genesis of the steroids problem:<br /><br /><a href="http://baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracy.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracy.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />I agree. I posted this on the other thread. It all seems to make sense.

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Posted By: <b>Alan U</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />If that really is the list, with the few people Mitchell was able to interview, the actual list of all offenders is huge.<br /><br />-Alan

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Both this list and the one in the other thread appear to have come from CNBC, who has since taken down the article.<br /><br />If this it the list, I guess my initial reaction is ... that's all? Really? Ho-hum. I'm a bit shocked. I guess I thought there would be some surprises, but not really. Heck, there aren't even enough people on the list for there to be a lot by way of surprise.<br /><br />I only see 3 or 4 that have ever played for the Tigers as far as I know. If that's it, then I'm back to ho-hum.<br /><br />Maybe the real bullets will be in the parts of the report that don't name names, something like a statement that 90% of pitchers and 70% of field players between the years of X and Y took steroids. <br /><br />Because if the whole bang is limited to this list, then it's not that big a deal as far as I can tell.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>The reaction of the players union will be VERY interesting. I'm betting that Fehr and/or his henchman/poop boy Orza will be their usual sanctimonious selves and threaten to file suit on behalf on the "innocent" players.

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Roger Clemens would be a no-brainer. Look at his last 4 years with Boston. He was 1 game over .500 and washed-up. Boston knew it and wouldn't resign. he then went through an off-season metamorphosis and became dominant. Look at the stats!

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Kudos to Jay Behrens -- he called it on Clemens about two years ago on this board. Many (including me) disagreed, thinking that Clemens' physique didn't fit the prototype of a 'roid user.

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Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>What team did Mitchell work for? I'm expecting no Sox to be on the list, but every single member of the Yankees...

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>How about Varitek, Nomar, Damon?<br />Mitchell has been a bastion of integrity his entire life and he is above reproach. <br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>TONY Galovich</b><p>Lasorda, where is Tommy's name?<br />I know he did the juice !!<br />Just look at his frame.<br />It's so obvious<br /><br />Also is this Seligs last press conference at 4:30 today?<br />Someone has to take the blame<br />Selig seems to be the easiest choice as to who has to go<br />Guess he can go back to selling cars?<br />Reportedly He has the best choice of previously Used Yugo's in the country, bar none

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Looks like we'll have to put an asterisk next to the Sox two Series wins, their leader was cheating. Maybe he wouldn't have bee able to catch all those games if he were banged up. The Cardinals deserve an asterisk too if Pujols was cheating. Clemens' victory total...asterisk. Thanks for telling us that Fernando Tatis was a juicer. Didn't Albert Belle retire like 10 years ago?

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Mitchell press conference highlights:<br /><br />(1) Mitchell made a direct connection between the widespread use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in major league baseball, and the rampant steroid use among high school athletes ("hundreds of thousands" of high school athletes). <br /><br />(2) He noted that almost none of the active players responded to the invitation to cooperate with the investigation.<br /><br />(3) Regarding the MLB drug-testing program, adopted in 2003 and which began in 2003 -- many players received advance notice of testing. While the program has improved, it falls short of "current best practices" in drug testing. Some improvements suggested in the report can be unilaterally implemented by the commissioner, and others will require players' union support.<br /><br />(4) The report will recommend that: (i) MLB form a department of investigation to detect steroid use, (ii) improve educational programs about the danger of use, and (iii) implement a "state of the art" drug testing program (administered exclusively by a completely independent organization, with results transparent to the public, with unannounced year round testing).<br /><br />(5) An effective drug-testing program was actively delayed by the players' union, although ownership did not force the issue.<br /><br />(6) Regarding disclosure of names, the goal of the investigation is to bring "this troubling chapter to a close", and prevent the future use of such substances. Goal is not to start numerous disciplinary proceedings, which will not be productive. Many of the incidents discovered occurred long ago -- some 9 years ago, and many before 2005, when there was no penalty for testing positive.<br /><br />(7) The problem can only be solved with cooperation of everyone in baseball. Commissioner should give most a chance for a "fresh start", except where the integrity of the game is implicated. Giving most a pass now will give the commissioner the basis of imposing strong discipline for future violations.<br /><br />(8) Players who used illegal performance enhancers put others at a competitive disadvantage, and were wrong, but the commissioner, players' union and owners are all to blame -- a collective failure to act, which gave rise to an environment where such substances were used.<br /><br />(9) The public's focus should be on the report's recommendations, not the players named.<br /><br />[edited to fix typos]

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>It (was) the Steroid Era. Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Pujols, Sosa, etc. will all be in the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: <b>davicycleback</b><p>Long before this report, some people noted that Clemens signed these unusual one season, or even portion of one season, contracts. Most players, of course, want long term contracts. Clemens' signed at the last second contracts meant he was not under any MLB contract during the off season and wasn't drug tested. MLB can't require tests for someone who isn't a member of the league, and possibly retired for what anyone knew, and Clemens' heartbeat contracts created long durations where he wasn't a member.

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>I find it funny how the topic of steroids has consumed baseball conversation for the past three years. Steroids were being passed out to teams in 1996 in hopes of bringing back the fans to this great game of ours. Steroids were not a bad thing back in 1995 because there was not a rule/law that said it was wrong for a player to take it. Bud Selig allowed the use of steroids to benefit him just like Clemens and other ball players used it to benefit themselves. If Selig had a problem with steroids or HGH, he could have stopped McGwire, Sosa or Bonds from breaking records. Instead, he decided to let it continue because he wanted the revenue and publicity of it all for baseball and himself. He could have so easily put a stop to it years ago, but financially it was best for the game to let it continue. <br />There are so many other people that have used HGH/Roids in baseball that are not being exposed because they don't have a trainer ratting them out. <br />The main reason why a Clemens would desire to be on steroids is not to be stronger necessarily, but more importantly so he can train harder and so that the body can recover quicker. Most people have in their minds that the steroid guy is the meat head with 22' arms with no neck. You are right when you see someone like that, but it can also be the Kevin Brown or the Andy Pettitte type body that needs recovery.( to go every five days.)<br />This report was done in the middle of the off season so it did not interrupt the game/post season/records being broken. Selig placed this to come out right now because no one is chasing a major record. <br />I am not a user of steroids, however I am around them where I train everyday. I think it is stupid to use the steroids if you have a family and you have a normal job like the rest of us. However, if your paycheck is based upon performances on the field and your opponents are using them to get ahead of you. I think I would probably consider them myself.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Shane <br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>david cycleback - that is genius. Never even crossed my mind.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>I have deleted this list of alleged player violators, due to errors by AOL News.<br />--<br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>I'd love to see a breakdown by team to see how evenly spread the list is; Were there some clubhouses were he made no headway and got 0 names?

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Posted By: <b>keyway</b><p>Of coarse Baseball knew steroids were being used. They did not care because Baseball was still trying to recover from the strike and know we had a homerun derby getting fans back. They still don't care and neither does the players union. Money, money ,money, thats all it is about. Who cares if these guys all die young as long as they can line thier poskets with money. The players are the fools and will one day have to pay for it.

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>With respect to which teams have the most implicated names, is it true that Mitchell is employed in the Red Sox organization? I thought I read that somewhere ... (no, I'm not trying to be an obnoxious Yankee fan)<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Mitchell is a minority owner of the Red Sox (very small piece).<br />However he has an unmatched record of public service and his integrity has never been questioned.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Excellent summation, Keyway.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So no Pujols?

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Bonds is not on the list?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Richard:<br /><br />No Sosa or McGwire (as originally indicated?) Glad I am not a betting man, as I thought for sure that they would be heading this list.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>The CNBC list, which came out a few hours before the press conference, only had about half the names right ... no Pujols, Garciaparra, Bagwell, Wood, Prior, Damon, Bret Boone, Aaron Boone, Varitek and Pudge Rodriquez ...

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>The list posted above is not accurate.<br /><br />Here is the report -- you can use the search/find function to search the pdf for your favorite players ...<br /><br /><a href="http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf</a>

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Posted By: <b>jerms</b><p>The bottom line is -- no one really cares too much that these guys are using steroids, almost 80 million tickets were sold to games last year, so the fans dont care too much, and since it doesnt hurt their bottom line, the owners dont care either.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Rob, the relationship between Mitchell and the Red Sox is a legitimate concern. While there seems to be some question as to whether or not he actually owns a piece of the Sox there is no doubt that he is part of their front office and draws a salary from them. As such I believe he was an inappropriate choice to lead this investigation regardless of his outstanding public and private careers.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Yahoo List:<br /><a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ag5TO4nM2uVXclfHf9eRJ5M5nYcB?slug=ys-mitchellnames121307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ag5TO4nM2uVXclfHf9eRJ5M5nYcB?slug=ys-mitchellnames121307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns</a>

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Lenny Dykstra<br /><br />David Segui<br /><br />Larry Bigbie<br /><br />Brian Roberts<br /><br />Jack Cust<br /><br />Tim Laker<br /><br />Josias Manzanillo<br /><br />Todd Hundley<br /><br />Mark Carreon<br /><br />Hal Morris<br /><br />Matt Franco<br /><br />Rondell White<br /><br />Andy Pettitte<br /><br />Roger Clemens<br /><br />Chuck Knoblauch<br /><br />Jason Grimsley<br /><br />Gregg Zaun<br /><br />David Justice<br /><br />F.P. Santangelo<br /><br />Glenallen Hill<br /><br />Mo Vaughn<br /><br />Denny Neagle<br /><br />Ron Villone<br /><br />Ryan Franklin<br /><br />Chris Donnels<br /><br />Todd Williams<br /><br />Phil Hiatt<br /><br />Todd Pratt<br /><br />Kevin Young<br /><br />Mike Lansing<br /><br />Cody McKay<br /><br />Kent Mercker<br /><br />Adam Piatt<br /><br />Miguel Tejada<br /><br />Jason Christiansen<br /><br />Mike Stanton<br /><br />Stephen Randolph<br /><br />Jerry Hairston<br /><br />Paul Lo Duca<br /><br />Adam Riggs<br /><br />Bart Miadich<br /><br />Fernando Vina<br /><br />Kevin Brown<br /><br />Eric Gagne<br /><br />Mike Bell<br /><br />Matt Herges<br /><br />Gary Bennett<br /><br />Jim Parque<br /><br />Brendan Donnelly<br /><br />Chad Allen<br /><br />Jeff Williams<br /><br />Exavier “Nook” Logan<br /><br />Howie Clark<br /><br />Paxton Crawford<br /><br />Ken Caminiti<br /><br />Rafael Palmeiro<br /><br />Luis Perez<br /><br />Derrick Turnbow<br /><br />Ricky Bones<br /><br />Ricky Stone<br /><br />The following players were cited under “Alleged Internet Purchases of Performance Enhancing Substances By Players in Major League Baseball.”<br /><br />Rick Ankiel<br /><br />David Bell<br /><br />Paul Byrd<br /><br />Jose Canseco<br /><br />Jay Gibbons<br /><br />Troy Glaus<br /><br />Jason Grimsley<br /><br />Jose Guillen<br /><br />Darren Holmes<br /><br />Gary Matthews Jr.<br /><br />John Rocker<br /><br />Scott Schoeneweis<br /><br />Ismael Valdez<br /><br />Matt Williams<br /><br />Steve Woodard<br /><br />The following players were linked through BALCO:<br /><br />Benito Santiago<br /><br />Gary Sheffield<br /><br />Randy Velarde<br /><br />Jason Giambi<br /><br />Jeremy Giambi<br /><br />Bobby Estalella<br /><br />Barry Bonds<br /><br />Marvin Benard<br /><br />. <br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>A question is when many of these players have medical problems 30 years from now will they sue MLB and the Players Union for hundreds of millions of dollars for their ailments? My guess is players will turn around and sue baseball, including their union, for being to lax about drug use. This report can be used as evidence, stating both sides were lax-- in particular when comparing to Olympic sports identified and seriously addressed the problem decades before (Remember, Ben Johnson was tested and banned almost 30 years ago). One of the pressing issues for the Olympics is that steroids and similar banned drugs cause major health problems in 1980s Communist troubles. MLB and the Players' Union heads had to have been well aware of the horrendous health problems many East German athletes developed from using the same drugs baseball was 'being lax' about. If the drug use leads to similar health problems, including early death, baseball may have a huge financial liability down the road.<br /><br />In a case, jurors would address MLB's liability in part by comparing it to how other contemporary sports addressed, if they addressed, the issue. That's part of how a jury determines if an company was doing what a reasonable company would and should do-- by comparing it's practices to what other companies in the same field were doing at the same time. If every other propane storage company was known to follow a well recognized safety practice, and your company chose not to-- the comparison of practices between companies will be used as evidence if your lack of practice leads to injury or death. That the Olympics, which included the sport of baseball by the way, had addressed the issue with testing and penalties literally decades earlier, may prove to be a damning comparison for baseball. Again, this would be reinforced by MLB's own commissioned report that states baseball was lax and probably should have been used the accepted practices long used other sports like the Olympics.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>did that list say nook logan? or hulk hogan?!?!<br /><br />pete ullman

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>That's exactly what's on my mind, David. Will they also be authoring books and making the media circuit, claiming victimhood? Funny how people insist on acting in ways that are detrimental to them and when their own behavior comes back to bite them, play the victim, railing at the injustice of it all.<br /><br />Yes, they can claim that MLB and the union were lax, but ultimately, especially considering that the info indicating how harmful steroids can be, has been out there a long time, we are responsible for our own behavior.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Going down the list I noted a large number of marginal ballplayers, some I've never even heard of. I think the use of performance enhancing drugs was much larger than what was made public, and that many ballplayers were fortunate to slip beneath the radar.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Barry........slip........for now.......<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>Should there be a steroid wing built at Cooperstown?

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Posted By: <b>David Davis</b><p>This now places Aaron and Maris back at the top of the food chain, where they belong.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>Someone near the top of this thread said they hoped to see AROD on the list? Why would anyone want to see anyone's name on this horrible list? I get not liking a guy or his attitude or whatever; but wishing someone was on the list - wierd. Guess as an AROD fan that bugged me - oh well I'm glad to see he's not on any of the lists. Sorry to see Pujols is on a few - though someone said he's not?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>For the marginal players, the banned substances may be the reason they were in the bigs at all. Without the drugs some may have been AA players at best.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Pujols is NOT on the list.<br />From what I hear they have Clemens pretty good,, and he is lying through his teeth already.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Can someone (the one responsible, perhaps), please delete all of the inaccurate lists that were posted on this thread BEFORE the damn report was even released!!! Sorry, but that sucks to implicate someone with false info. <br /><br />Thanks

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Is you close information on Clemens coming from the same source where you at first implicated Pujols but then redacted him from the list of offenders? Let's let the news come out from some official sources.....never retreat, never surrender, huh?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>I am likely in a minority but I question the appropriateness of using this quasi-investigative process to accuse people very publicly of what in some instances could be criminal conduct. I think he should have kept the report in general terms without naming names.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>If Landis was commissioner, or even Kuhn or Vincent, what would happen? One thing I also thought interesting is if both pitchers and hitters are on steroids, is it then a perverse level playing field? For example, how did Giambi do againt Clemens and Pettite from 98 on?

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I said I wouldnt be surprised by a name on the list an i lied because Fernando Vina is on the list. He was on baseball tonight all season long talking about steroids,bashing the players who used it and defending people who havent been caught and saying he knew nothing about it going on. I really wish the show was in season right now and they were live on the air when the names were being read just to see his reaction when they said his name. <br /><br /><br /> Wonder if he will be on the show next year? and if he is,if they would run a clip of him every once in awhile from last year badmouthing steroid users just to bust his chops.Like if he made a mistake or didnt know the answer to some question. He had to know he would be named since he seemed to be one of the biggest buyers,you figure he wouldve came out about it ahead of the report

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>As exemplified by Bonds and Clemens, if the drugs extends a player's productive years, both pitchers' and hitters' longevity records will be artificially bloated. For career numbers, it's not an either/or proposition, but a both/and. Both Bonds and Clemens were churning out big times numbers unusually late in their careers, which directly effects career stats like home runs, wins and strikeouts. If you could have added four or five extra productive years to Lefty Grove, Catfish Hunter, Wille McCovey, Ty Cobb or Jimmie Foxx, their career stats would have all ballooned as well. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Ken I took your advice and deleted the inaccurate lists.<br />Tom I thought I was quoting official sources when I posted lists coming from major news organizations. I certainly did not make up names to put on the list. And if you think Clemens is innocent now, well you are certainly entitled to your opinion.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Ken, that pre-list was likely accurate. Just because Mitchell had no goods on those others (yet) just buys the vermin some time. I'm certain They're frantic trying to cover their tracks.<br /><br />How these greedy knuckleheads can trash their legacies so is confounding.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>Eighty players were named and it's safe to say many steroid abusers from that era still haven't been called out. Eighty players is more than three full team rosters.<br /><br />We talk about how individual player's stat are most likely inflated because of steroid use and there appears to be an outcry such as putting asterisks on certain player's records from this era or banning them from the Hall of Fame. But now that we see that Clemens, Pettite, Mike Stanton and Chuck Knoblauch have been called out, this puts a blemish on the Yankees three World Series Championships from 1998-2000.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p><i>But now that we see that Clemens, Pettite, Mike Stanton and Chuck Knoblauch have been called out, this puts a blemish on the Yankees three World Series Championships from 1998-2000.</i><br /><br />A bigger Yankees hater than me you will not find, but if the illegal use of steroids was as widespread throughout MLB as you say and as the report implies -- and I agree that it likely was -- then why are the championships from the Yankees blemished? Because of the caliber of players who were cheating? Come on.<br /><br />Be mad at baseball as a whole all you want, and be mad at your favorite player for shooting up, but there are enough reasons to dislike the Yankees without making this kind of stretch.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> The 2000 Yankees team had 10 guys from the list but as much as i hate the Yankees i dont think thats a higher percentage of players than any other average team from 2000 and I doubt those 10 players were the only ones either. When they say certain players had an advantage I laugh because who did they have an advantage over? Im sure that list couldve easily numbered 500 if people talked.<br /><br /> When they elect for the hall of fame I still think they should just take the best players from the era because no one is going to forget that this is the steroid era,every player will be presumed guilty years from now and who knows if it will ever get better,or who is going to care,not the fans who want to watch baseball played by the best players. Im sure there are a few people who dont attend games because of what happened but i dont know anyone in my everyday life who stopped going altogether,or started going more often because of drug testing.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I have a dumb-a$$ question. I haven't read the report yet so maybe that's why I don't understand this.<br /><br />There are several places in the report where it says that one of the clubhouse attendants produced a check written by Player A for steroids, and this is part of the evidence that got Player A mentioned as a user.<br /><br />How does this happen? How does the guy that the check was written to produce the check? If he cashed it, it would be in the possession of either the payor bank or the player. How would the clubhouse guy get it back?<br /><br />More likely, if he produced it for Mitchell it was because he never cashed it and still had it as written. Why wouldn't he cash it? Are steroids so cheap he can front the money and forget about the check? Were there so many checks he lost track of some and forgot to cash them? <br /><br />Did he intentionally hang on to them thinking he may need them as evidence someday? Or maybe that they would be more valuable in the future to sell on ebay (either as an autograph or even as a purported "check used to purchase steroids")? <br /><br />And I know these players make a ton ton ton of money, but at some point wouldn't someone (the player or accountant or whatever) realize that the checks for steroids hadn't cleared yet and were still floating around out there somewhere?<br /><br />For some reason, this business of clubhouse attendants being able to produce checks for the Commission is really nagging at me as being a bit odd.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />Edited for punctuation. Trying to keep this a high-end board and all. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>The reason that certain teams are over-represented on the list of names is very simple to explain -- there was someone associated with the team and/or the players on the team that was willing to talk.<br /><br />Which highlights one of the worst things in the report that has not been discussed in the press (yet), and that is the almost total silence and uncooperativeness with the investigation by the players. I understand that they are only acting in their own self-interest, but they are all complicit.<br /><br />And I disagree with anyone that says nobody was disadvantaged in the steroid era because the use was so rampant. When you see marginal guys like Scott Schoenweiss on the list, and Randy Velarde (whose career was extended by steroid use), then you have to feel for the dozens of clean minor leaguers who could have (and should have) taken their spots, but never got their shot. And that scenario plays itself out down the chain in the minor leagues, all the way to the high school prospects.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>For me, this was a waste of 40 million dollars to investigate and publish the report. These players probably won't be punished in any way.<br /><br />Why not draw a line in the sand, say January 2008 as an example: Anyone caught using any drugs that are illegal after that date are punished. Whatever that punishment would be, I don't know.<br /><br />joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Joanne,<br /> I think the obvious answer is that they simply copied the checks before depositing them. Many legitimate enterprises do this for record keeping purposes (as I do for my Ebay transactions). Why did the Clubbies do it? Probably not for record keeping reasons, but for just such eventualities as this, where their own skin was on the line, and they needed something to use as a bargaining chip.<br /><br />Edited for spelling.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I love baseball more than any other sport. I love everything about it. As much as it pains me, anyone who thinks only a few percent of the players do enhancement drugs, is living in a dream world. It's in all sports. And it ain't goin' away. My brother used to be a competitive weight lifter. He worked out with some athletes that everyone on here would know. They "All" took roids. Every single one. It is just part of the routine. Even the woman who were doing the competitive weigh lifting were into it. Now this was 15 years ago, but somehow i doubt they have all found religion. It's wrong, it's cheating, it's not good for one's health, but they do it. For all the obvious reasons. Last Spring, my shoulder was killing me. Couldn't lift my arm above my head. Or lift anything over about 5 pds, without screaming pain. Age, and many thrown baseballs and softballs from shortstop trashed it. Now, if I was in danger of losing my starting spot, or being cut from the team, due to the inability to perform, do you think I would take roids to fix me up? Hell yes. So would everyone else in here. One quick shot from the Doc, and the pain was gone by the next day. Hasn't bothered me since.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Ed, <br /><br />Ohhh. OK. I get it. I was thinking they had produced the actual checks themselves, not photocopies. That makes more sense. They should have clarified that.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>I'm actually surprised it took this long to get pictures like this circulating...<br /><br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/kkkkandp/roids.jpg"><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Nice shot of the "The Roidket". Which is my new favorite nickname.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>So does this elevate a guy like Greg Maddux ahead of Clemens in your mind? They are both racing towards Spahn's modern day record for wins and if Maddux can win 13 games in each of the next two seasons he will tie Alexander and Matty for 3rd with 373. Only Cy Young and Walter Johnson ahead of him...

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>JoAnn, the bigger question is who is so dumb as to write a check for such things, rather than paying cash? Why on Earth leave a paper trail?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>lol Todd. I thought about that one too. I think players may write checks to clubhouse guys pretty routinely for various things. <br /><br />I read that at least one player was confronted by the commission with a check they got from a clubhouse guy that the player had written, and demanded to know what the check was for. The player said he didn't have the first damn idea what it was for - could have been McDonald's, could have been dues, could have been who the hell knows what, but all he knew was that it wasn't for steroids. I think this particular players ended up not being named in the report, and got the impression that checks between players and clubhouse guys aren't at all uncommon. <br /><br />Wish I remembered who it was or where I read it - it was only yesterday. But if it was more than 20 minutes ago and is not related to the Sales and Negotiable Instruments exam I have tomorrow, then it doesn't have a spot in my brain right now!<br /><br />Still though ... writing a check for steroids? What - they don't have ATM's in clubhouses?? They will now, I bet!<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I saw that too. I want to know of anyone who has ever written a check to McDoonald's. I mean, you don't have a twenty or less to pay for food? Dues? Payable to a clubhouse guy and not an entity of some sort? Gimme a break. What's the pricing on these steroids anyway--same as a Happy Meal supersized?<br /><br />OK Joann, if the player makes the check payable to the clubhouse guy, who then places a restrictive endorsement such as payable to John Doe only after January 1, 2008, is a party who takes delivery of the check from John Doe as consideration for another transaction a holder in due course? Is the answer different after January 1, 2008? Are you nervous about your exam? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>The check would not necessarily be written out to McDonalds (or Burger King, etc.) but rather to the club house attendant in payment for going to McDonalds. A large check could be a cumulative payment for going to McDonalds several times over the course of a week or a month. Or it could be payment for slipping a comely fan the players phone number. The point is that players routinely tip club house guys for any number of things so unless the player was stupid enough to write "steroids" on the memo line there is reasonable doubt as to what the checks were for.<br /><br />Howard

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Howard, there could be some doubt, but I won't concede it's reasonable. These were apparently often visiting players who come into town what, anywhere from three to ten days a year? They have plenty of food in the clubhouse, and although I suppose there could be some favors requested here and there, I have trouble believing them as being the subject of check transactions. It's been way too many years, but when I once saw the old Yankees roll into Minnesota and hang out, wads o' cash were being flashed for payment around the hotel and watering hole. It also seems with the proliferation of ATMS, cash is more readily available than ever. I just have difficulty believing these players are taking the time to write checks for every little favor or even for a bunch of them over time. That's why I say if the pricing for the roids at all matches up to the amounts shown on these checks, somebody's got a lot of 'splainin to do, and while it may not be proof positive, it is certainly relavant and likely probative.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Paul Loduca wrote out three checks for $3200 each to Radomski.<br />That would have been an amazing coincidence for him to tip the clubhouse guy $3200 each time he saw him.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>the juice is EXPENSIVE..........<br /><br />Wonder if that was for the Cream or the Clear.....?<br /><br />p.s. Todd.......Gonzo wasn't on the list I don't think......nor Williams or some of the other guys.......maybe second round, huh?<br />

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Todd and Richard, you both make good points. Checks like that are certainly pretty strong evidence.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>I have heard some people discussing those that were on steroids had an advantage over the others. However, being realistic on the steroid thing, I would wager that the steroid issue has existed for the past 15 years and the percentage of users in the MLB is close to 85%. If this is true the level of play is equal. This list of 87 is just the list that got ratted out by their trainers/clubhouse managers. Usually the strength and conditioning coach would be the guy giving the drugs instead of a trainer. <br />The issue of using a substance to enhance your play has been around a long time. It started with drinking in the dugout or being drunk on the mound(1920s-60s), to being high on cocaine or speed(1970s-80s), using tobacco throughout the life of baseball and now the steroids. All of these are accelerants that allow a player to release their nerves.<br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>You really think alcohol, cocaine and tobacco enhance play?????????<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Richard<br />Yes I do think so. When someone is nervous they smoke. <br /><br />SL

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>Come to think of it, isn't the mere presence of athletically gifted genes/dna an unfair advantage?<br /><br />Just kidding. "There's no excuse for juice." I wrote that.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Shane - somebody may grab a smoke during a game, but doing lines of coke or drinking booze? Obviously they don't do that during a game and I never heard of either of those chemicals being called helpful to athletes, before, during or after a game.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>It has been said that many baseball players from the 1880's and 90's used cocaine and that baseball had a problem with it. <br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>To think that only Barry is guilty, is a load of BS. MLB, just like NFL, NBA and NHL are LOADED with ROIDS. Anyone notice how these ballplayers, despite the sport, fill a piece of cardboard more than our players on T206? Yep, they are all on some kind of enhancement performance get more hits, homeruns, strikes (if a pitcher), touchdowns, catches, goals, dunks... &lt; you get my meaning. It is completely retarded to hang this entire thing on Bonds, there are multiple users and before the leagues lift "the rock" of information, they may want to think twice...

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I'm unaware of a single person who thinks Bonds is the only one. Further, one only has to look at the reception for McGwire and Palmeiro to see Bonds is not the only one the receive the wrath or roids. A difference for Bonds is he chose to stay in the game and gun for popular records. McGwire and Palmeiro quickly moved to the sidelines. Presumably, if McGwire came back after the hearing to gun for Maris' record a second time, his reception wouldn't be as sweet as in 1998.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>According to SI.com Andy Pettitte has admitted using HGH on two occasions.<br />Not from SI.com but I have heard now that Bennett and Santangelo have verified what the Mitchell Report said about their drug use.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm very disappointed with Pettite. While he only claims to have used HGH twice, when confronted last year by Jason Grimsley's accusation, he flat out lied. As for Clemens, his weak and getting weaker denials are not helped by Pettite's admission: Pettite totally corroborated the version of events provided by the trainer that he and Clemens shared. If Barry Bonds is denied entry into the HOF, Clemens had best be as well.

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Spillman</b><p><br />This NY Times Mitchell Report article shows a picture and a concise report on each player on the list. It includes a chart showing before and after performance-enhancing substances were used.<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/13/sports/20071213_MITCHELL_FEATURE.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/13/sports/20071213_MITCHELL_FEATURE.html</a>#<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Some of the names I was glad didn't appear include Bagwell, Ripken, Junior, Frank Thomas, Albert Pujols, and Ivan Rodriguez. Not surprised at all that Albert Belle and Juan Gonzales were named.