OT: The Mitchell Report: Who Will Be Named??

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I think this is the first OT post I have ever started so with apologies here we go:<br /><br />The forthcoming Mitchell report will reportedly name names of players previously not mentioned as steroid users. The report will also reportedly include the names of well known players not previously named.<br /><br />Lets hear your speculation on who these players will be--no more than 10 guesses--1 point for each correct answer. No credit for those players already named(Bonds, Sosa, Juan G, McGwire etc.). Also must be current players or in Bagwell's case just retired<br /><br />Here is my list<br /><br />1)Roger Clemens<br />2)Craig Biggio<br />3)Jeff Bagwell<br />4)Miguel Tejada<br />5)Pedro Martinez<br />6)Jason Kendall<br />7)Frank Thomas<br />8)Todd Helton<br />9)Ivan Rodriguez<br />10)Alex Rodriguez<br /><br />HM Eric Gagne<br /> Jeff Kent<br /> Ryan Klesko<br /> Jermaine Dye<br /><br />Retired Players: <br /><br />Albert Belle<br />Brady Anderson<br />Darren Daulton<br />Raul Mondesi<br />Larry Walker<br />Bobby Bonilla<br />

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>I think those names are all reasonable. But most of the names will come from the NY Mets Batboy so I would think you have mostly NY players in his reports.<br /><br />But here's a few more. Lenny Dykstra (got huge and signed a big contract), Mo Vaughn (tore his triceps swinging a bat), Juan Gonzales (kept nreaking down).<br /><br />Side note: Gotta love Juan Gone refusing to sign Detroit's 8 yr $144 million offer as being too low.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Eric,<br /><br />I tried to focus on current players but...<br /><br />I would say Gonzo is a no-brainer--hasn't he been named before.<br /><br />Dykstra ceretainly possible and if Lenny was juicing then I would bet Darren Daulton was and possibly John Kruk.<br /><br />3)Mo Vaughan-agreed.<br /><br />My hope (prayer) is that it doesn't include players such as Ripken, Chipper or Jeter.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Just so I understand the criteria here, we're trying to find out of shape, overweight players that hit for power?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />In some cases--unusual buildup in muscles, unusual statistical year could be a giveaway? The team connection works in certain cases...for example Orioles(Palmiero, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada, Segui, Tatis, Patterson).

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Speaking just for the Orioles, or ex-Orioles.<br /><br />1.) Brady Anderson<br />2.) Albert Belle<br />3.) Bobby Bonilla<br />4.) Miguel Tejada<br />5.) Brian Roberts<br />6.) Jay Gibbons<br />7.) Rafael Palmeiro<br />8.) Jason Grimsley<br />9.) David Segui<br />10.) Sammy Sosa<br /><br />and unfortunately, a lot more.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I would add that every one of my 10 guesses has at leasst some hope for being named to the HOF so if some are named that would obviously have a big impact on that.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>James,<br /><br />The only name that surprises me is Brian Roberts?

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Who has already admitted to taking steroids?<br /><br />James

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you forgot Andy Pettite. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />The Clemens connection?<br /><br />James,<br /><br />We also left out Roberto Alomar.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>There have been grumblings in Orioleland about Brian Roberts for a while, particularly his close relationship with user Jay Gibbons. No doubt, the Orioles are probably the most implicated team of all steroid users. As for those who have admitted, I know Wally Joyner admitted to juicing for a time, along with Giambi, who else has admitted?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>might it be easier to list the names of non-users?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No, Jim, actually it was Grimsley's unredacted statements in an affidavit that included Pettite along with Clemens as recipients of HGH I believe.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I didn't know that--interesting.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>"In some cases--unusual buildup in muscles, unusual statistical year could be a giveaway? The team connection works in certain cases...for example Orioles(Palmiero, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada, Segui, Tatis, Patterson)."<br /><br />This is absurd. That list is every power hitter on that team. While I do not deny many players have taken steroids in the majors, I do debate that it makes you a better baseball player. If more big strong guys took steroids, it's only because they figured that added strength is conducive to their style of play - hitting HRs or fastball pitchers. I'd be very interested to see cases of guys who had smaller frames and didn't hit for power in the minors, come to the majors, take steroids and become HR machines. Here's my bet - when the list comes out, it will be full of players who had no major discernible jump in stats from college/the minors to the majors. A power hitter on the list would have always been a power hitter, and a finesse pitcher who took steroids would not become a good power pitcher.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />I will take that bet giving odds.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jeff, I'm not surprised, but I've never actually heard Clemens or Pettite associated with actual statements, only speculation.<br /><br />Where can I find those statements?<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, I think Gonzalez is a safe bet, as is Brady Anderson. I wouldn't be surprised to hear Pudge Rodruiguez, Bret Boone, Alfonso Soriano, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, Bobby Abreu, Brian Roberts, Brady Anderson, Jeff Bagwell, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Roberto Alomar, Eric Chavez, and Chicken Stanley.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Matt, why is that absurd?<br /><br />Palmeiro, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada and Segui have already been implicated in one way or another. <br /><br />EDIT: as for no discernible jump in stats, well, tell that to Brady Anderson.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - what are you putting up as a wager?<br />Al - Brady Anderson is an interesting discussion - do you propose he juiced only during his 50 HR season and it wore off rapidly before and after? Was he juicing all through his career and if so, what caused that huge jump? If he was only juicing during that 1 season, why stop if he was so successful with it?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />....or Bret Boone.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Matt, I wish I knew. <br /><br />Or maybe I don't, I don't know.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Team connections from the 1980's: Oakland A's, then Texas Rangers and Cleveland Indians.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Al - here's the point - if he was juicing his whole career then we can't attribute that crazy HR season to the juice, can we? Again, I'm not saying he wasn't juicing (I have no idea) just that I don't think the juice makes you a better baseball player.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />That means if Brady or Boone or Bagwell or Tejada are named I win as I think they all increased their power numbers after they juiced--same with McGwire and Sosa. Batters took steroids to increase power and it worked.<br /><br />Add Luis Gonzales to the list too.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Does anyone have a copy of the article that tied it all back to Bagwell?

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jim - so explain Brady's 5 seasons after that 50 HR season?

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I personally saw Brady Anderson roid rage at Oakland in 1996.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>James - do tell!<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>He took mp with a women's pro tennis player--Amanda Coetzer--who said its either me or the juice and he gave up the juice <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>jim, i think it would be pretty safe to say ripken chipper and jeter wont be on that list...i think they are smarter than that, especially ripken with his community involvement<br /><br />jeter's a natural star, has his slumps<br />ripken never produced like a steroid user, he was a better than average player<br />chipper's like jeter but on the wrong team<br /><br />****OT anyone else see the size of tony gwynn???? talk about out of shape players

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>50..........look at Luis Gonzales in 2001..........57 HRS......next highest I think was 31 HRS for him............<br />

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I won't repeat the words, but this is what happened. In July of 1996, I was visiting family in Northern California and my brother and I decided to go to an Orioles/A's game in Oakland. We sat in the outfield bleachers between Left and Center Field. During the 7th inning stretch an A's fan sitting directly to my left started heckling Bonilla, it was not out of line or mean spirited at all. Brady Anderson turned around and for 5-10 minutes spewed a torrent of expletives, what he was going to do to this guys mother, etc. He did this between pitches during that 7th inning, and didn't care that the fellow was with his children. It was an absolutely pathetic display. Everytime my brother and I discuss someone losing their cool, we call it "Doing a Brady..."<br /><br />James

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Kevin Youkilis<br />David Ortiz<br />Manny Ramirez<br />Mike Lowell<br />J D Drew<br />Jason Varitek<br />Mike Timlin<br />Curt Shilling<br />Josh Beckett<br />Eric Gagne<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>It seems that every player that has had a good year or career<br />has been mentioned on this thread. Is this what Baseball has<br />come down to?<br />That everyone is a suspect?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Not on the list!<br /><br />Thats why I appreciate Ken Griffey Jr. so much<br /><br />(well, for that reason, and because of the cases and cases of 1989 Topps and Fleer cards I have <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )<br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Jim- you once again have started the "hottest thread in the hobby"...congrats!<br /><br />how's that for an ego boost? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i doubt that jeter or ripken will be on that list...as for chipper, i could care less, although i wouldn't put it past him...<br /><br />MS

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Luis Gonzalez looks the same now as he ever did, lean and not particularly muscular. He has probably not weighed 200 pounds in his life. Take your witchhunt elsewhere.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Said like a true Yankee fan--wow would Red Sox fans be devastated if Ortiz was on the list.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Joe D,<br /><br />Being a life-long Cincinnati Reds fan, I have KGJ as a dark horse as far as someone being named that has NEVER been mentioned before.<br /><br /><br />My reasons:<br /><br />1) Power hitter in the 1990's<br /><br />2) Played on the West Coast (closer to Oakland and San Francisco) and was a team mate of Bret Boone<br /><br />3) Friend of Barry Bonds and was supposedly at a dinner party when Bonds was talking about juicing because of the attention Sosa and McGwire (two lesser players in Bonds' opinion) were getting during the Home Run chase<br /><br />4) Demanded a trade to the Reds and only the Reds (instead of taking Seattle's 8 year $140 million dollar contract and also DID NOT go Free Agency route) then signed with the Reds. Had ONE good year before MAJOR injuries hit<br /><br />5) Lives in Orlando, THE town where one of the largest busts occured. A Pharmacy and some employees were arrested for distributing steroids, HGH and other PED's around the country.<br /><br />I am not saying KGJ DID juice, I am just saying there are reasons to raise some suspicion. So, if the Mitchell report comes out and KGJ's name is on it, I wont be surprised, unlike a LOT of other people.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'll be interested to hear about Pettite -- after all, he is an extremely religious guy. Not sure though that the New Testament forbids the Clear and the Cream. As for Gonzo, I agree that he's never looked 'steriod huge.' However, to hit 57 HRs one year with his next highest total at 31 does suggest something funky was going on.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Hey Jeff, <br /><br />Just to play devil's advocate here...<br /><br />What was Maris's second highest HR total? You know better than to convict on that kind of evidence.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jim--He's gone from medium Poppi to big Poppi; I suspect something

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I hear you. I think the difference is that Maris did not play in an era when so many players used steroids and HGH. Unfortunately, it is at least appropriate to question such a jump in power during these times.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I make this case all the time.<br /><br />Maris had one monster year, during which time he hit 61 home runs. He never approached that number again. Not even close.<br /><br />During that season, his hair fell out in clumps. People blamed stress.<br /><br />He had a reputation for being surly.<br /><br />If he were playing today and those things happened, he'd be the poster boy for steroid abuse.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>no witchhunt and frankly, don't care as baseball has made their bed and are now lying in it.........<br /><br />Anyway, you can't indict Brady Anderson for a single season in the middle of his career without thinking about 'Gonzo'. Just a logical conclusion.....<br /><br />Brady, in 1996, hit 50 HRS........never hit more than 24 before or after.<br />'Gonzo', in 2001, hit 57 HRS.......never hit more than 31 before or after.<br /><br />Brady's teammates in 1996.........Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonnilla <br />Luis's teammates in 2001..........Mark Grace, Matt Williams, Curt Schilling<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Maris hit 61 because he was in Yankee stadium and Mantle batted behind him.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff--agreed--Luis Gonzales is a good bet.<br /><br />Ten players who will not be implcated:<br /><br />Jeter<br />Ripken<br />Chipper<br />Maddox<br />Glavine<br />Smoltz<br />Ichiro<br />Juan Pierre<br />Wakefield<br />Jimmy Rollins<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Your telling me Wakefield didn't take steroids? I would have never guessed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The problem is it was (and still is) the players' own union, a union that works at the behest and vote of the players, that has prevented drug test of players-- and, thus, promoted its use. The union is still against testing for HGH. So if there is any fan anger, frustration, iffy rumors, bad accusations, not believing players regular' denials, the players can blame themselves as much as anyone for this environment. Players' inevitable denials or excuses after testing postive, hardly give fans and the press reason to trust them.<br /><br />What Marion Jones showed us is that an athlete can never test positive (in an sport the test much more and harder than baseball), deny it for years and still have used steroids. Jones has made it a whole lot harder on athletes who deny and say stuff like "I never failed a test." Whether fair or unfair, fans and the press are going to say, "Marion Jones never failed a test either."

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Peter, <br /><br />Did Maris play in Yankee Stadium in any other years, with Mantle batting behind him? How did he do?

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>This is probably the first time I've heard anyone implicate Frank Thomas. The guy's nickname was "The Big Hurt" since he broke into the league in 1990. He's always been huge. Had he not hurt his arm diving for a grounder, he'd have way more than 500 homers. Steroids? No way.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Peter:<br /><br />Didn't Maris play in Yankee Stadium with Mantle hitting behind him all those other years?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>My list is as follows:<br /><br />1.) Brian Giles<br />2.) Julio Franco<br />3.) Roger Clemens<br />4.) Reggie Sanders<br />5.) Jason Kendall<br />6.) Albert Pujols<br />7.) Brady Anderson<br />8.) Ruben Sierra<br />9.) Gary Matthews, Jr.<br />10.) Bobby Abreu<br />13.) Alex Rodriguez<br />14.) Miguel Tejada<br /><br />Sorry, but these are 14 players I GUARANTEE have used HGH and steroids. And I could easily make this list larger.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>now you name matt Williams and Mark Grace as Dbacks who were teammates of Gonzo in '01, plus Schilling. Are you suggesting these players used steroids too?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />There were a couple of other years with lesser results.<br /><br />But the thing with Roger he had the perfect swing for Yankee stadium, if you recall he never really hit monster home runs like Mantle. But he had a swing tailored for the outfiend fences at Yankee stadium.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Marc,<br /><br />Interesting list--why are you sure on Pujols?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Mitchell won't be providing a list of every player who used illegal performance enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think a huge number took steroids, perhaps the majority of major leaguers, because it was the only way for them to stay competitive.<br /><br />If they didn't take them, they could lose their job to someone bigger and stronger who did.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>David,<br /><br />Correct but a person who has seen the list termed it "enormous" with a lot of undisclosed big names.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with you Barry.<br /><br />My belief concerning sports and competitions where performance enhancing drugs are prevalent and commonly used by the top competitors (MLB, Tour de France, etc) is that superior performance is good indication of use of performance enhancing drugs/methods, in particular with winners (beat everyone else). If an athlete's competitors are using the illegal drugs/methods, it is close to unbelievable that an athlete could be beat them au natural. Amongst the strongest evidence than Floyd Landis cheated in a Tour de France infested with cheaters is that he won. With performance as significant indicator, do I believe Lance Armstrong did not cheat while beating for seven consecutive years against competitors who cheated? No I do not. I think one would have to be naive to believe it physiologically possible. In fact, the director of the of the Tour de France was asked where the top racer not medically cheating would finish. "Perhaps fifty fifth," he said.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>"But he had a swing tailored for the outfield fences at Yankee stadium."<br /><br /><br />Peter, <br /><br />Are you aware that Maris hit 30 HRs in the Stadium and 31 on the road in 1961? <br /><br />In 1960, his other MVP season, he hit 26 on the road and 13 at home. <br /><br />The benefit of the short porch at the Stadium is an urban legend. <br /><br /><br />(Edited to correct peter's typo. Happy now? I used cut and paste and didn't even notice your typo. I did notice the incorrect assumption in your post.)

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Your a great guy and all, but you don't need to repeat my typos. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>There doesn't seem to be much about baseball history that Peter C <i>is</i> aware of.<br />No shame in that, but after being called out time and time gain, you'd think he'd stop making his pronouncements.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The air in Yankee Stadium in 1961 had to be "rarefied" (as it is in Denver). Besides Roger and Mickey hitting a lot of HR's,<br /> the two catchers Blanchard and Howard hit over 20 HR's each and Yogi (LF) hit 22 and Skowron hit 28.<br />1961 was a very good year in NYC.<br /><br />And, a reminder that Maris won the MVP, also, in 1960. He only had 39 HR's that year, but a lot of clutch hits and 112 RBI's.<br /><br />His "hair loss" in 1961 was due to the stress he constantly felt from the media push. He was a simple and shy country guy that<br /> couldn't deal with the daily onslaught of the NY sports media. <br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Ted, <br /><br />I always attribute a big part of the 1961 season statistics to the dilution caused by expansion. Two new teams, on an eight team base, watered down the pitching, a lot.

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>TAKE A-ROD OFF!! I bet he never took anything, he has always been a great player since day one. Never got huge.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I have a personal question for everyone:<br /><br />You are a ball player. You're good, some would say great. To go from great to becoming a legend or arguably the greatest player ever...would you take steroids?<br /><br /><br />My answer – absolutely!<br /><br /><br />Right now I could actually use some HGH.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm having my afternoon Stella Artois as I type this...but never took steroids.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />No--I would not.<br /><br />Aside from the health aspects and legal aspects of this which I will allow Peter C to expound upon, this is a game filled with enormous history and tradition. I could never live with myself knowing I broke records of some of the greats of the game because of illegal performance enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Who are you talking about, Barry? George Mitchell?

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Ted, of course I know all that, but again, if Maris were playing today, we'd be hearing all about it, in the form of speculation that Maris was on steroids.<br /><br />The fact is that there were plenty of illegal activities going on in Major League clubhouses in the 1960s, 70s and 80s as well. What was missing during the majority of that time, as well as during all the time before it, were 24-hour news and sports networks, 400 channels of original programming, dozens of websites and newspapers, each desperate for the next scoop and the next pile of dirt to report. The desperation to achieve ratings successes is what's uncovered so many of these stories and made them public.<br /><br />Before all this, with news media traveling with (and in some cases, having their expenses paid by) the teams, reporters did not have quite the incentive to question whether Roger Maris was ingesting anything that might be helping him muscle more balls over the fence, perform better in day games after night games, or better acclimate to the insanity of west coast road trips. Nobody bothered to ask the question.<br /><br />So when Tom House came out and said pitchers were doing steroids in the 60s, everyone was surprised. Not me!<br /><br />I guess my main point is that the Mitchell Report, to me, will be interesting purely from a gossipy, human interest sort of angle. But it's not going to change my opinion of the game or the people who are playing it today one iota. <br /><br />-Al<br /><br />Edited to correct the spelling of "ingest", although "injest" is, perhaps, a more ironic spelling.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>David- I think I am missing some clever reference, but Stella Artois is an imported beer.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />It all goes back to the money and the fact the players only have a short time to earn it.<br /><br />We all like heart-warming stories about pros who suffer in the minors for 10 years and then become productive major-leaguers.<br /><br />The problem though is a major league career normally only lasts less than 10 years. So if you are going to earn the big bucks you need to learn how to be competitive soon. If the studs on the team take steroids, then I 'm sure you would seriously consider it yourself.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>I like Amstel

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Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p>Kevin, hearing that from you will be bad for your new business! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Jay Buhner

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Brooklyn '55 Pennant Ale.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>There's no reason to not exclude ARod as a possible user. He is the highest performer in baseball, and if Rafael Palmeiro can test positive, there's no reason to automatically exclude other stars. At the time, many people thought, "Man, if Palmeiro used steroids, then anyone could have."<br /><br />As mentioned, if players feel suspicions are unwarranted, then they only have have to blame their union, players' guilty denials, ludicrous excuses and the common 'code of silence' amongst players. If players were willing to admit their guilt, fans would be more willing to accept denials. Fans know players have a code of silence about illegal activity ('Don't snitch'), in part because players have said they have one. This means fans know players hide information and aren't to be considered reliables source of information. Then, when players complain that fans don't accept what they have to say, the answer is "No ****, Sherlock."

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David -- true. Same goes for Chicken Stanley. And Mark Belanger.

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Didn't some Pitchers a few years ago (White Sox?) step forward and say they would be willing to be tested? Also, didn't other players or the Union urge them NOT to do this??<br /><br />All I know is some players stepped forward BEFORE testing was allowed by the Union and said they were clean. They were quickly quieted and that idea was never heard of again.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>Glen Turner</b><p>Has anyone mentioned Kevin Brown and Pudge Rodriguez?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>Duly note that I included superior performance as a factor. If a league is filled with artificial performance enhancers, it's physiologically unlikely for someone clean to be the best.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jason Kendall?? what part of his 6 HR's a year would make anyone think he was taking roids? He doesn't even swing for the fences he always chockes up on the bat a few inches and tries to poke balls to the gap over the 2bman.

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>Apparently you are someone who didn't watch Jason Kendall play with Pittsburgh. He was a bigger and stronger player who once averaged about 12-15 homeruns per year. Now, the guy is lucky to get 1 homerun a year. Not sure where you got this average of 6 homers recently? If my memory serves me, I want to think Kendall didn't even hit a homerun last year. Considering I'm a Pirates fan and have been since birth, I've watched enough of Jason Kendall to know what I'm talking about.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>He hit 1 HR vs Kansas City last year<br />and He hit a HR vs the Astros this year (almost 2 in the same game and he hit 1 other HR this year as well.<br />He hit 1 in 06<br />0 in 05<br />3 -04<br />6 -03<br />3 -02<br /><br />The most he ever hit was 14 in 2000 and he hit double digit HR's only 3 times in his career.<br /><br />While I won't claim to be a guy who followed him obsessively in his career before Oakland he was a player I paid attention to and I was psyched when he came to Oakland (and one of the few who were upset when he was traded) He has always been a double to the gap swinger I sincerely doubt he used roids.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Glen,<br /><br />I mentioned Pudge in my original 10.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>David they didn't offer to be tested the pitchers were going to refuse to take the test which would have made them automatic failures which would have put the failure rate above the minimum % and would thus force the MLBPA to start the testing policy that we have now.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>What has made people think Alex R. is a user? He has never performed differently over his career, never grew or did anything else to show the effects of performance enhancing drugs? I'm curious - is this a personal dislike of the guy (which he certainly has his detractors)?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I have to agree with you on the ARod issue. His stats and physique have not grown over time. Other than for reasons of schadenfreude, I can't conceive of any reason why one would think he has ever used 'roids.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Oh heck no. Did Jeff really just break out a "schadenfreude"? I KNEW this was a high-end board!<br /><br />Clemens<br />Pudge<br />Frank Thomas<br />Kruk<br />Sosa<br />Maybe Sheffield<br /><br />No's<br />Ripken<br />Jeter<br />Ichiro<br />On all three, I'd just be crushed if they did. It would seem like the loss of some true and decent players that I admire and believe in.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Why does everyone think Thomas was on the juice?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I never said ARod used drugs. It has been said often that ARod can automatically be removed from the list of possible of users, and I was indicating that I did not see justification for this stance. I don't why any player can be automatically removed from the list, in particular one who performs at a superior level.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>First....someone in this thread has implied that if a player is overweight (John Kruk for example) he is suspected of being on steroids ? ?<br />Well Kruk overcame testicular cancer and I would suggest that the medication he took to cure this malady might have something to do<br /> with his weight.<br />And, while oversize Phillies players are being targeted....was "The Bull" Luzinski on steroids ?<br /><br />And, have you taken a good look at Tony Gwynn lately....is he, or was he on steroids ?<br /><br />And, Alex Rodriguez.....GIVE ME A BREAK ! !<br /><br />2nd....this "Mitchell Report"....is that old has been senator from Maine, George Mitchell conducting this "inquisition" ?<br />He can't be trusted any more than Selig or Steinbrenner.

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Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Amstel is my fav also. And my 23 year-old female bass guitar player just introduced me to Stella. Fantastico!!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"Luis Gonzalez looks the same now as he ever did, lean and not particularly muscular. He has probably not weighed 200 pounds in his life. Take your witchhunt elsewhere."<br /><br />HMMMMMM.........................<br /><br /><img src="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/ws_top20_large/20.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jeez, that picture. Yeah, I guess it surely would be a witch hunt to question whether Gonzo was on the juice at the time his HR total jumped from 31 to 57....<br /><br />We all are capable of thinking objectively about this issue even when it impacts our favorite teams and players, right? After all, we're adults, right? No one has posters of Gonzo in their room still, right?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Interesting photo.<br /><br />No reason for anyone to get offended. There will be a list of new names--take a shot with your 10 most likely of those who have not been prominently mentioned in past.<br /><br />Actually if I had to do over I would put Luis in and take Arod out.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Looks like normal muscle mass growth for a dude with a 32 or 34 waist, huh?<br /><br />I agree with Jim.......don't get offended. No witchhunts.....certainly makes you think though.........

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>But if that's the best you got, I still say no way. Anyone ever heard of a weight room? <br /><br />Those guns are impressive, no doubt. But I'd bet that current DBack Chris Young could show you the same flex, maybe Justin Upton too. I'd also bet every team has at least one player who could do the same. Of course, they're probably juicers too.<br /><br />I don't take it personally. I just think its a gossipy old lady's game to sit around and toss people into the pit like this. Let the evidence, such as it is, come out and be analyzed before appointing yourself members of the character assassination league. And Jeff, my daughter still has a Got Milk poster of Luis and his triplets in her room--make of that what you will.<br /><br />BTW, Tom, you didn't answer my earlier question--are you throwing Matt Williams, Mark Grace and Curt Schilling into the pit too?

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Posted By: <b>Cat (ret.)</b><p>First, wouldn't it be easier to come up with a list of those that WON'T be named?<br /><br />Second, I'll take a speculative guess at those who are:<br /><br />1. All Dominican Players<br />2. Any Player that had his best season after age 36<br />3. Any Pitcher that has had a major injury since 1998<br />4. Any Player playing after age 40<br />5. All Players from the 2003 Red Sox (excluding Nomar perhaps)<br />6. Any Player who says they have an "in season" weight-lifting regiment<br /><br />Those who may not:<br /><br />7. Angels, Padres, and Dodgers players; and this doesn't mean they didn't take, this just means they had a different method of acquisition (Vlad will be but not necessarily tied to his Angels days) and therefore may not have made this list. The Dominican players have acquisition methods that go back to their minor league days.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Frankly, Todd, I wasn't directing my comment to you. It just seems that sometimes posters will defend their heroes on here even at the expense of common sense despite the fact that we're all rational adults now. As long as the Gonzo poster isn't hanging in your room, I'm going to presume you are still capable of being objective on the issue.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>That picture of Gonzalez is insane.<br /><br />Wow.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>for arguements sake, lets say every player from the 90s took 'roids. if it wasn't illegal/banned until like 2003 or something then what can be done? <br /><br />Will this report name players who took steroids AFTER it was banned? I just think they should quit worrying about who took it when it was legal because obviously we won't ever know of EVER person that ever took it. <br /><br />Concentrate on cleaning up the present and suspend the player for a full season (first offense) or forever (2nd offense) if they are caught with illegal/banned PEDs. That should clean up the game a little.<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I'm certainly not the first person to note Schilling (nor Gonzo for that matter). Grace and Williams might be a stretch but Williams did have four nice long years hanging out with Mr. Bonds in San Francisco. Speculation is just that, speculation. Jim's initial response was to SPECULATE who might be part of the document. If the D'backs or whoever is your team, there is, as was stated earlier, nothing personal. I can see being for your team and it's players but if you'd be surprised by ANYTHING that might have happened in baseball over the last 10-15 years, then objectivity is out the door............

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Steroids usage has been officially banned by MLB since 1991, but they didn't test for it until 2003. Beyond baseball's rulebook, illegal drugs are illegal as long as they were and are illegal. Bud Selig and Donald Fehr have as much legal power and ability to legalize illegal drugs within baseball as they have to annex Russian into the American League. In other words, none. If you asked Fehr if MLB agreements ever make illegal drug use legal within baseball, he might respond "Not unless Bud Selig and I want to time in prison."<br /><br />Players have considered taking steroids cheating since before then, which is why they refuse to talk about it or admit taking them. If they didn't consider it cheating, it wouldn't be the taboo subject that it is. If it wasn't considered cheating, players would have no problem admitting they took it before there was penalty and there would be no need to make silly excuses when they are caught. If it wasn't considered cheating, the many players who did wouldn't have risen up and demanded that there be testing and penalties. If it wasn't considered cheating players wouldn't threaten a libel case against Jose Canseco when their names are mentioned in his book. You don't sue for libel because someone wrote you like apple pie or that you walk dogs, or even that you like the Chicago Bears when you really like the Philadelphia Eagles. You sue for libel in part because some wrote something that you personally feel reflects horribly on you as a player and as person and damages you. In the case of threatened suits against Canseco, players felt that claims of steroids usage reflected horribly upon them as men and as players and portrayed their statistical accomplishments as being aided by cheating. As demonstrated by Rafael Palmeiro and Barry Bonds, who were two who threatened libel suit against Canseco and used steroids (one tested positive and admitted, the other admitted under oath), this is the feeling about steroids usage even amongst players who used steroids. So the players' feelings about usage of steroids is clear-- they themselves consider it cheating and wrong, even when they do it.<br /><br />The steroids equation is as follows: 1) If it didn't help their performance, players wouldn't take steroids. 2) If they didn't think taking steroids was wrong (cheating) they would freely talk about their usage.

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Posted By: <b>bill latzko</b><p>bucky dent!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />You are no doubt aware of the article 'The Bagwell Conspiracy". For others not aware I will quote:<br /><br />"Gonzalez took his own advice that off season, though, having seen so many teams with the juice, and began pumping steroids into his puny little body. As the veins came out of his arms, his hits began to fly out of the park, and Gonzales watched his production increase each of the next five years from 10 home runs in 1997 to 57 home runs in 2001. Gonzales would reunite wiith Finley in Arizona in 1999 and together they convinced Jay Bell and Matt Williams, two veterans in the twilight of their years to juice as well. Bell and Williams, each of whom hit 20 homers the year before, increased their home run totals to 38 and 35 respectively and managed to salvage their eroding skills and halt their fading careers."<br /><br />More on Gonzalez in this article as well as a whole host of players.<br /><br />Among the others implicated in the article are:<br /><br />Jeff Bagwell<br />Pete Incaviglia<br />Lenny Dykstra<br />Karl Rhodes<br />Sammy Sosa<br />Steve Finley<br />Ken Caminiti<br />Wally Joyner<br />Greg Vaughan<br />Phil Nevin<br />Tony Clark<br />Bobby Higginson<br />Melvin Nieves<br />Bob Hamelin<br />Travis Fryman<br />Tony Gwynn(sigh)<br />Jason Giambi<br />Matt Stairs<br />Ben Grieve<br />John Jaha<br />Eric Chavez<br />Miguel Tejada<br />Reggie Sanders<br />Sean Casey<br />Ed Taubensee<br />Jeff Hammonds<br />Mike Cameron<br />Pokey Reese<br />Junior(sigh)<br />Mike CameronJ<br />Jay Buhner<br />Edgar Martinez<br />John Olerud<br />Bret Boone<br />Aaron Boone<br />Scott Servais<br />Barry Bonds<br />Benito Santiago<br />Andres Gallaraga<br />Jeff Kent<br />Morgan Ensberg<br />Craig Biggio<br />Richard Hidalgo<br />Rich Aurelia<br /><br />Great article! Not sure its all true but filled with anecdotes--I bet most is.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Thanks for the post. Craig Biggio too, sigh.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Do me a favor, do not under any circumstances delete that last post.<br /><br />This is what Jim would have pass for investigative journalism. Please note that not one source is cited, and the author does not offer one bit of explanation as to how he came up with his "findings". Read on and draw your own conclusions:<br /><br /><a href="http://asher.baseballevolution.com/bagwellconspiracy.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://asher.baseballevolution.com/bagwellconspiracy.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Why would I delete it?<br /><br />Said I wasn't sure it was all true but it is filled with anecdotes and I bet most of it is true.<br /><br />You are very defensive about Luis Todd? We are only speculating here and trying to draw from whatever sources we can.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>Popeye- I never did beleive that spinach theory.<br /><br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>I won't answer because reckless disregard of truth or falsity is libelous. <br /><br />I, like everyone, has suspicions. But speculation has gone overboard.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ed, are you concerned that after Barry gets through with Curt he'll come after you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>No. I just wanted to see if my mind retained any of that jargon from the bar exam.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, depending upon when you took it I'm impressed. If you can still (ever?) explain the Rule of Perpetuities, however, I'll be floored.

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>Capable of vesting, lives in being. No sweat.<br /><br />It's that fertile octagenerian garbage that trips me up.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, on that one my advice would be to always use birth control just to be safe.

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>Got me laughing, Jeff. Still, can't defeat "capable" with less than 100% proven reliability. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The Rule Against Perpetuities is itself laughable. New York legislators have made some sensible reforms to it.<br /><br />Now, back to juice talk. It's all the rage these days.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>brock</b><p>I could see Curt Schilling's name coming up on the list. He had played with players that took it(2001, and i could see him of taken during 2004 game 6 of ALCS). And i could see David Ortiz as one to, he was small with the Twins and only hit 20 home runs and then comes to the sox's gains weight and then starts to hit 40-50 home runs.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>Gagne<br />Beltre<br />LoDuca

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Hey everyone.....consider this, if you are making the the big $$$$$ these guys are making you are probably eating<br /> pretty darn good....and, certainly better than most. Compound that with "pumpimg iron" in your younger days, and <br />then that muscle build-up turning to fat by the time you are in your mid-30's. So, you are looking quite "bulked-up".<br />But, that doesn't automatically suggest you are on steroids.<br /><br />No, I don't believe Gwynn or Schilling are on steroids as has been alluded to here on a prior post. They are "heavy" <br />simply because of my above stated reasons.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />Sorry to say Matt is in the news today as buying steroids and HGH. IMO, Gonzalez will follow and probably at least 1 other teammate.<br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />Was that your call on Matt Williams--good one.<br /><br />How did noone name Guillen--in retrospect that seems like an easy one.<br /><br />The Mitchell report should be very interesting.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Has anyone SEEN Tony Gwynn? Steroids? More like Twinkies...<br /><br />Who next, Mickey Lolich?

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Terry Forster.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Joe Steffens</b><p>Look at Tony Gwynn's late career surge. He went from being essentially washed up at age 32 to having his best power years after age 35. I wouldn't be surprised if he was implicated.

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Posted By: <b>Howard</b><p>Didn't Jose Canseco say that he had some dirt on A-Rod that he would reveal in his next book?<br /><br />If A-Rod is implicated before he signs a contract how do you guys think that will affect the $$$ he gets?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>From what I see, he followed a pretty typical downward spiral. His BA stayed up but he had only 1 full season after age 34 due to injuries (and had the amazing total of 17 home runs that year). His SLG #s were pretty much the same. Compare that with the other guys and you will see a marked difference.

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Posted By: <b>Scott T</b><p>I don't think Gwynn will be named in the Mitchell report.<br /><br />I cannot deny that he added 40 pounds (at least) during his career, but I don't think it was from "the cream and the clear". It was from the "the biscuits and the gravy".<br /><br /><br><br>Scott <br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Scott,<br /> I agree... Tony has always enjoyed eating and makes no bones about it, no pun intended. But, he always loved road games in Atlanta, where good fried chicken, biscuits(gravy or not), and barbeque are always on the menu. Not to mention all of the great Steak places in the area.... Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS I'm with Tony... I like to eat too... but not quite that much.

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Posted By: <b>Jantz</b><p>"Moonlight" Graham....well since he never got an at-bat....we will never know! Hmmmmm.<br /><br />Jantz

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Tony Gwynn gave an alternative explanation for why he was better the second half of his career. He met Ted Williams.

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Posted By: <b>Joe S.</b><p>By late career power surge, I am referring to the increase in Tony Gwynn's slugging percentage. I'll admit he was never a great home run hitter.<br /><br />At age 32 Gwynn slugged .415, the lowest percentage of his career. But the next year, his slugging percentage made an abrupt jump. Then he had his career high at age 34. At age 37 and 38, he slugged over .500. He never came close to a .415 slugging percentage for the remainder of his career.<br /><br />That's not the normal career trajectory that players in the 1950s and 1960s had. Check out guys like Rocky Colavito, Harvey Kuenn (Not a HR hitter, but he essentially was finished by his early 30s), or Eddie Mathews. BTW - those guys were contemporaries of Ted Williams. Perhaps other factors, like the new offense friendly ball parks, helped Gwynn.<br /><br />Roberto Alomar is a guy who, based on his career trajectory, I believe never took steroids.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>"11 free agents are named in the forthcoming George Mitchell report and have been notified by the commissioner's office, the Boston Globe reports. It's still unknown when the Mitchell report will be made public, but there's been nothing recently to suggest it will happen by the winter meetings. Jose Guillen is one of the 11 players fingered, and we assume Barry Bonds is in there somehow as well. Several others will remain mysteries for a while longer."<br /><br />Source: Boston.com, Nov. 8, 5:23 pm<br /><br />It sounds like some more names will be coming soon ...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />Thanks for the update. However, in a way it doesn't matter who is named. MLB doesn't have any penalties for being named in the Mitchell Report.<br /><br />Furthermore, as long as the player can continue to produce they will continue to get the huge contracts. Look at Paul Byrd.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Any guess who the 11 will be? No doubt Jose Guillen is one of them. There's quite a few perennial candidates in this year's free agent class. Aside from Guillen, here are a few players bound to be considered ...<br /><br />Bobby Abreu (disappearing power)<br />Luis Gonzalez (one shot power wonder)<br />Roger Clemens (I bet he retires)<br />Barry Bonds (I wish I could believe him, but I can't)<br />Mark Sweeney (Bonds once pegged him)<br />Jason Kendall (disappearing power)<br />Sammy Sosa (does anyone doubt it?)<br />Eric Gagne (from mediocre to unhittable overnight)<br />Marcus Giles (long speculated, declining power)<br />Shawn Green (vanishing power and physique)<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if the list includes a few guys who have battled back from endless injuries, players like Aaron Sele, Reggie Sanders, Rondell White and Kerry Wood. Given how much each of these four guys has gone through to stay in the game, I wouldn't blame them for trying something. Let the speculation begin ...

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The information is coming from a limited amount of sources. This means that the players listed may not be a cross section of baseball. For example, one witness was a Mets clubhouse attendant, who may have zero information about Rockies or Angels or Cubs. This also means that if a player is not 'listed' that does not mean he did not use. The common idea that Mitchell will or can provide a list of any and all players who used is incorrect.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Bud Selig and MLB set a bad precedent when they let Jason Giambi off the hook for using steroids. Now other players implicated by the Mitchell report will expect the same treatment.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Bumping these O/T posts is really obnoxious. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Release scheduled tomorrow.<br /><br />Some 60-80 players or former players expected to be named. <br /><br />Last chance to change your bets.

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Even though I am a Cincinnati Reds fan, my dark horse is Ken Griffey Junior.<br /><br />My reasons:<br /><br />1) He WAS a dominant Home Run hitter during the 1990's.<br />2) He played on the West Coast (closer to the labs, more trips to Oakland and thus easier to get to the source in person).<br />3) Is a good friend of Bonds and according to "Game of Shadows", was in attendance at a dinner where Bonds talked about McGwire and Sosa. A dinner where Bonds said he was going to start juicing.<br />4) After being traded to the Reds, has suffered NUMEROUS injuries. These include leg injuries and ligament and tendon injuries. Things that some of the medical people I have talked to said COULD have been affected by steroid use.<br />5) Lives in Orlando, Florida. The city where a MAJOR drug bust occured at a pharmacy and the Owners and some employees were arrested for distributing steroids across the country and to Pro athletes.<br /><br />I have NO proof that KGJ "juiced" BUT because of the above coincidences, I wont be surprised if his name shows up on the list.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Bonds never took 'roids. His secret weapon was elk splooge!

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Posted By: <b>TONY Galovich</b><p>Tommy LaSorda

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Pujols on the List!?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Pujols? Ugh<br /><br />Pettite? <br /><br />What would Jesus say? Aren't these guys super religious?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>CNBC just released this list ...<br /><br />Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenn y Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsworth, Ryan Franklin, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>And Bagwell!??! Goodbye HOF and "The Bagwell Conspiracy" gains credence.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Something tells me this is the Tip of the Iceberg.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Jeff -- why are you bringing religion into this. What does going to church (or temple) have to do with taking steroids? <br /><br />Hypocrisy is what it is, but I'm not sure taking HGH means you don't, or shouldn't, believe in God. And last time I checked, steroids weren't on the can't do list on tablets. They weren't even on the can't do list in the commissioner's office until fairly recently.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>ESPN is reporting right now that Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte are on the list.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>PC, Pettite is a holy roller and he has repeatedly denied taking any performance enhancing drugs. For a guy who wears his religion on his sleeve as Andy does I would have at least expected him to not lie (and cheat, either). Not that I'm surprised but he always struck me as an honest guy.

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Watch the Mitchell press conference live at 2pm on MLB.com ...<br /><br />&lt;a href="<a href="http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/radio/index.jsp" target="_new">http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/radio/index.jsp</a><br /><br /><br />You have to download some Microsoft program -- "Silverlight Controller" (whatever that is) -- and reboot, but you can then get the conference on your computer. <br /><br /><br />edited to say lets use the other thread for this topic....this one is old and has over 150 posts already....if there is an outcry to unlock this (for some reason I don't know) then I will...but the other thread is doing fine on the same topic (moderator)