..on the subject of being banned

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I'm sure PSA customers would not appreciate this this type of censorship and I think it should be considered a big deal. Instead of working to better their image and improve their performance they decided to go the other direction. <br /> <br />Joe O. must be a little upset:<br /><br />I have had my long standing PSA membership revoked/declined and my user ID on the CU forum deleted and banned from posting (didn't much anyways). Last week they removed my name from the author list and on every article I've written. This week those articles cannot be found in their library at all...although they did miss one but the name is still gone. I imagine registry sets will be the next to go. <br /> <br />Not so long ago I got an email from a former PSA grader who stated he/they received absolutely no training in how to identify card alterations. It was all OJT and learn as you go. The statement is of course hearsay but the fact that this person was a grader has been verified.<br /><br />Known card doctors who fraudulently sell to collectors are still welcome to submit though and whatever doesn't get rejected will enter into the hobby. <br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Was there some specific thing that prompted them to take this action, or a culmination of things? <br /><br />Very strange behavior on their part.

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Hi Kevin,<br />Yes I was thinking that myself. What prompted this?

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Can we have the text they sent to notify you? <br /><br />(I posted this 10 minutes ago, but the post got lost somehow)

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>&lt;&lt;"Known card doctors who fraudulently sell to collectors are still welcome to submit though and whatever doesn't get rejected will enter into the hobby."&gt;&gt;<br /><br />OK, I'll bite. Who are these known card doctors?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>This is nothing new at PSA. They have a long history of silencing people and sweeping issues under the rug.<br /><br />Are you going to tells us more about your side of the story to make the post relevant?<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Doesn't this go along with PSA cancelling cert numbers of cards they screwed up on? Yes, they can grade it. If they make a mistake then they can always deny it by removing the cert number and state that there is no mistake because no such card exists (or has been graded by them because there is no such registered cert number). Remember the Heine/Honus Wagner T206 card? Didn't they delete the cert number? That is one reason I blank the cert number of PSA card images when I post about another PSA debacle. <br /><br />Joe O. and PSA must think that they are the CIA, FBI or NSA because they think that by removing cert numbers and personal postings they can remove all trace of their errors or the existence of evidence that they screw things up.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>while I enjoy your posts Kevin -<br />I could easily see how the people at PSA could view you as a threat to their business.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Joe - the part of Kevin that PSA views as dangerous (I think he's great for the hobby BTW) doesn't go away by banning him from submitting. Now, if they sent someone to his house with a baseball bat, they could probably make it go away...

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Are you going to tells us more about your side of the story to make the post relevant?"<br /><br />Oh I thought that was a given...sorry. As most know, I started a website AlteredCards.com (not pimping). Guess PSA didn't like what they saw.<br /><br />The ban was discovered by accident at first. I initially found I could no longer post on CU and when I saw a reference to one of my articles and noticed my byline was removed. I went to check a pop-report and my used name was no longer active. It's renewal time, I sent them the payment and they said it would not be processed.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Sounds to me like a business move to protect themselves from the truth! Good work Kevin looks like you hit a BIG nerve!!!!

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>The business decision is not about trying to get rid of Kevin....<br />the business decision is about not supporting Kevin.<br /><br />Why would they want to give him podium on their own servers with their own customers?<br /><br /><br />Of course they can't silence him.... but they don't have to be the ones giving him the venue.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Joe - the content of his articles didn't dynamically change all the sudden - if they were good before, they are good now. What I will concede (if you have PSA's mindset) is a ban on their forum. But, stopping him from submitting and removing his articles seems like an incorrect response.

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Posted By: <b>David Davis</b><p>For PSA this seems to be purely a business decision. Even though Kevin is trying to educate and improve people's skills for the card collecting hobby, it conflicts with the fact that PSA is a publicly traded company, that will looketo protect it's product, bottom line and reputation.<br /><br />The fact that Kevin can get altered cards past their graders as examples of PSA's shortcomings, only proves to them that malevolent actions by others can result in more altered cards getting into their holders. As far as I know, Kevin is the only one open and honest about his actions. If I were Joe Orlando, I'd try to hire Kevin ASAP to educate his graders, point out shortcomings in the process, etc.<br /><br />Until one of PSA's hall of fame collectors converts all their cards to SGC, or an auction house such as Mastro decides to stop using PSA for submissions, or even to sell any of their cards, this type of bullying will continue to be the norm.<br /><br />It would be interesting to know how many cards PSA rejects on an annual basis due to trimming, chemical alteration, recoloring, etc. If even 1% of that number gets by their graders, it could still have a huge impact on the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Kevin seems to be a truthful, forthright fellow. PSA's business decision to protect their reputation has not been 100% successful. <br /><br />I think if they had admitted that some of that stuff might have gone on in the past, but no more and they're working to correct things, then THAT would have enhanced their reputation. <br /><br />I just got a Lajoie white border card that I was thinking of cracking out of its PSA holder. Now I'm certain I'll do that, this weekend. I'll take a series of "liberation" photos to post here.<br /><br /><br />Kevin, please do keep posting here. <br /><br /><br />Frank W.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>why give credibility to your threat?<br /><br /><br />its a business decision. a very understandable one.<br /><br />again - I am not siding with anyone - and I very much enjoy Kevin's posts...<br />but I don't find this at all surprising.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I believe Joe D. sums up my thoughts on PSA's position. I'm no huge fan of that company, but I can understand their position.<br /><br />As for the notion that they should hire Kevin, well, they apparently see it differently. And if that bridge wasn't burned before, I suspect it is now.<br /><br />Kevin, good luck and of course feel free to keep posting. Please consider me skeptical, though, when you claim you're not pimping your site.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Orlando = Orwell??? We have to wonder. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />Is it not true that PSA once expressed an interest in hiring you, but you made several demands including being in charge of their entire grading operation? Is all or any of this true?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"I got an email from a former PSA grader who stated he/they received absolutely no training in how to identify card alterations."<br /><br />Just one more reason to stay away from PSA cards.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Is it not true that PSA once expressed an interest in hiring you, but you made several demands including being in charge of their entire grading operation? Is all or any of this true?"<br /><br /><br />I rarely make demands for anything...not my nature. They asked that I test to be a grader...so I offered to test their graders <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. <br /><br />I make a decent salary so the postion would have needed to be above a grader. My request to was to "join their senior team" and help them in detecting alterations and advanced card doctoring...the thing that I do. Yikes, I wouldn't want to be in charge of grading.<br /><br />___________________________________<br /><br />"I got an email from a former PSA grader who stated he/they received absolutely no training in how to identify card alterations."<br /><br />Just one more reason to stay away from PSA cards."<br /><br /><br />This is true. First an email then I talked to him on the phone.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Do we know what training SGC gives their graders?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I believe the answer is none.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Josh - I must be missing something; If both give no training to their graders, how is PSA worse then SGC in this regard?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I posted a thread called alteredcards.com just to inform people who frequent the cu boards about this great resource. I did not view it as an anti-PSA thread. The thread quickly piled up 45 or so responses --virtually all of which said thanks for telling us of this website. Then it was gone.

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Given the phenomenal strength of the market for graded cards, either the grading services are getting it right an overwhelming percentage of the time, or people deep down don't care whether they do or not as long as the card doesn't look blatantly altered and there is a nice pretty flip with a numerical grade.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>iirc when derek grady was with sgc he was grading 90% of the pre-war cards coming in..someone had posted that on the board here after talking to grady/sgc. the volume was probably less back then but you can say he was training the 10% guy and breaking him in?<br /><br />i could care less about what they do with the 30's and above stuff...

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Im sorry Matt - I thought your question was about PSA - I misread it. I dont know what SGC does, but if I had to guess, based on quality of grading, its something other than none.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"I posted a thread called alteredcards.com just to inform people who frequent the cu boards about this great resource. I did not view it as an anti-PSA thread. The thread quickly piled up 45 or so responses --virtually all of which said thanks for telling us of this website. Then it was gone."<br /><br />Its amazing that they dont mind deleting posts started by one of their HOF registry guys. <br /><br />Jim, given your stated desire to clean up the hobby, psa's apparent ambivilence toward training their graders, and their censorship of your posts on the subject, it seems odd that you are not taking any stand against PSA. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>Forgive my ignorance, but why on earth would PSA want people to know about Kevin's site? Kevin's service is detecting alterations. Isn't that what PSA's service is? If you claim Kevin's service is complimentary to PSA's, then what is PSA good for, a nice holder?<br /><br />I am constantly amazed that people complain when a for profit enterprise deletes posts from its free message boards that it determines harmful to the company.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"I dont know what SGC does, but if I had to guess, based on quality of grading, its something other than none."<br /><br /><br />After seeing what they (SGC) catch...agreed!<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JK,<br /><br />Just picking my spots. Not effective to call them out on Message Boards. Joe Orlando invited me down to spend two days with all of their graders and him to talk about anything I wanted to. If I go, thats a good forum.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>Kevin<br /><br />Did you really think that PSA would clutch you to their bosom after all that has been posted?<br /><br />Had I been PSA, you would have been well advised to sleep with one eye open and have your wife start the car in the morning.<br /><br /><br />Signed<br /><br />An Anonymous Well-Wisher Who Supports The Reinstatement Of Lee Behrens.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Neal Kane</b><p>rubbish <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Joe O. is kissing your butt because he knows what you represent. Now lets see Joe O. invite some Joe Blow like me over there... aint gonna happen.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If the PSA plastic you own weighs more than you do, Joe O. loves you......

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Well stated, Leon.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>But pulling down everything he ever posted, every article that he wrote and they published, refusing to renew his membership; that's a bit more than simply not promoting a presumed business rival. <br /><br />I suspect that they would not allow Kevin the privilege of using their services because he might embarrass PSA by slipping more of his handiwork into their holders. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Kevin, Did you really think that PSA would clutch you to their bosom after all that has been posted? Had I been PSA, you would have been well advised to sleep with one eye open and have your wife start the car in the morning."<br /><br /><br />Hey Paul! Of course not but they seem to be pulling a Kaiser Soeze, erase the seed move<br /><br />hummm...had you been at PSA huh? Don't you moderate that forum? That does it, I'm making the kids taste test my food.<br /><br /><br />btw...give me a call I accidently erased your contact info last week.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin<br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>Frankly, that PSA customers put up with PSA's act (for example, PSA promised to tell their paying customers the whole WIWAG story and still hasn't) is as much a comment on PSA customers as on PSA. I don't think it has yet dawned on many PSA collectors that PSA needs their customers' submissions and money more than the collectors need PSA. Without PSA, the customer's can go to SGC. Without customers, PSA goes bankrupt. That the customers don't exercise their power is the customers' choice and no one else's, not even PSA's.<br /><br />Some collectors feel that the best way to "protect one's investment" and "preserve brand name" is to have everyone put their head in sand and keep it there-- in particular while prices are high. If the prices ever plummet, many of the same collectors will then complain about the problems. <br /><br />As someone who's been around the a few years, I have witnessed where auction houses and authentication company's have changed practices because many collectors and clients have complained. When you see today a major auction house disclosing ownership of a lot, that's because hobbyists complained about lack of disclosure and the auction houses listened. Auction house presidents are smart enough to not want to offend their paying customers.

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>Thanks for answering my question Kevin. So did you take the grader's test and if so, what were your results?<br /><br />I responded to Jim's thread on the CU Board regarding Kevin's website and even in spite of it being a minority view on this board, I strongly object soaking cards. If a card has been altered in anyway to improve its value and is sold without disclosure, in many instances the law has been broken.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>"the law has been broken."<br /><br />what law?

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I think Dan is alluding to the Hobby Protection act.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>If Im not mistaken, the Hobby Protection Act is a California statute. It applies only to a small percentage of us.

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>davidcycle,<br /><br />I don't recall any promise by PSA to tell the whole WIWAG story, but I do recall David Hall coming on the boards and answering questions about that incident. Early on, PSA did give the general public the contact person's phone number at the Attorney General's office in case anyone had any questions. I did have questions and spoke to a woman named Melanie several times. There was no cover up nor smoking gun. <br /><br />And since you mentioned SGC, I recall in a direct conversation with Sean Skeffington about 5 years ago where he admitted that they had past problems with a dealer or dealers switching flips on their cards. Since, I missed their public disclosure regarding that incident, perhaps you can fill me in on those details about what happened.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>not that I would actively advocate any of this, but I imagine that it cannot be terribly difficult to set up a new e-mail account and to join PSA through some other means (e.g. same address, but pay with a money order and use a bogus name, or use your work address).<br /><br />I think it is obvious that PSA is seeking to cover their ass and is probably worried about a) the amount of knowledge you have on card alterations (and have shared) and b) the risk that you could get some/many of that through their grading process. <br /><br />Interesting, as some notorious card-alterers have not be banned from CU/PSA, because their whole business model is predicated on getting cards through.

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p>That is correct, the Hobby Protection Act is a California statute. In Texas, it would be the Texas Deceptive Trade act. Most states have in some form a consumer protection law.

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Posted By: <b>D.C. Markel</b><p><br />Being aware that you are in essence starting up a new grading company of your own, if I can get altered cards past you, then you will have no choice but to hire me as a senior grader - right?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Why are you attacking Kevin so hard here? Do you have some connection to PSA/CU? <br /><br />And FYI for everyone, the Federal Hobby Protection Act applies to coins and political items, not cards. The CA law (Business & Professions Code 21670 et seq.) applies in CA and it doesn't have any effect unless the altered item is sold. <br /><br />Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"So did you take the grader's test and if so, what were your results?"<br /><br /><br />No, wouldn't even consider it. Taking a day off work for no reason would be a waste of time. No harm or disrespect intended.<br /><br />For what it's worth, Mike Baker kinda' tested me informally, just for kicks. He stated I did as well as any senior grader. Of course I took a couple mintes per card, which is too long IMO. Grading is very subjective.<br /><br />________________________<br /><br />Being aware that you are in essence starting up a new grading company of your own, if I can get altered cards past you, then you will have no choice but to hire me as a senior grader - right?<br /><br /><br />huh? You're way off base. I'm not starting any grading company. Haven't started anything yet. I alter cards and study the results to help other collectors. Getting an example past a grader just validates the need for improvement in the hobby. <br /><br />I'm no PSA hater, most of my collection is unaltered and in PSA holders, if not raw. It's my understanding a few of their senior graders are very respected with great personalities. <br /><br /><br />Kevin <br />

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Posted By: <b>James Dunn</b><p>Here is the cached CU page 1 for your viewing pleasure.<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/2p5osp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2p5osp</a><br /><br />It wrapped fine on my browser.

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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>boxingcardman - What attacks? I've only asked questions, which I believe are warranted for all that Kevin has posted on this thread as well as numerous other threads. To answer your question, I am not employed by CU (or PSA), I own no stock in CU, I am not a PSA authorized dealer. I do own PSA cards, but also have some SGC and GAI cards.<br /><br />Kevin - So your authentication service of previously holdered cards is no longer a reality?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Having just read what looked to be The Hobby Protection Act of California on a website, it seems it only applies to coins and political collectibles.<br /><br />Baseball cards would not be included.<br /><br />Anyone know of a link to the statute, an interpretation, or case law that suggests that the statute applies to ball cards??<br /><br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Hey Kevin, <br /><br />Is the link to your site connected to the forum subject of "Detecting Card Alterations and Reprints"? If not, why not ask the MD if they'll throw it in there. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/85511" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/85511</a>

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>The act i alluded to was the "federal hobby protection act' and it too covers only numismatic and political items. In 1998 I believe the FTC got involved with autographs since that was forgery. I have no idea if case law would come into play regarding ballcards or memrobilia. i was simply stating what i thought Dan was talking about.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Steve Clark</b><p>There is something I don't understand. The Gallery shows a number of ghost images cards. I can see how they can be altered to make them look like that but the end up looking like something worthless. Did ghost cards exist out of the "pack", therefore a rarity?<br /><br />What is PSA's beef? Anyone can post cards that have been altered, esp. coming back from PSA as being so (which seems to happen a lot). I see nothing on altercards.com that is controversal except the subjective quote about 15%. I just don't get it unless there is more to it behind the scenes.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Fred C and Leon,<br /><br />Naturally--any successful business pays the most attention to their best customers or those that have the potential of being so.<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />You are absolutely right that soaking cards is altering and is absolutely wrong. One of the biggest surprises to me after I began posting on this board was that so many were engaged in this highly questionable practice.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>James Drum, can you please edit your post and replace that 167 character long URL with this tinyurl?<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/2p5osp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2p5osp</a><br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Paul S</b><p><i>"Kevin, Did you really think that PSA would clutch you to their bosom ...?"</i>

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Kevin banned from the CU board? <br /><br />Who cares? What makes this a topic here? OT at best, right?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It would be so much easier to read this thread without that 167 character long URL posted up there.<br /><br />Leon, I'm begging you to either make a board rule against long URL's or give me moderator status in which I will only fix long URL's.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />One of these days when I'm done with finals maybe I can try to compare browser or display or some kind of settings with you. Long URL's automatically wrap on my screen. I only have to scroll over if the scans are too large (grrr - and I hate that).<br /><br />It'd drive me bananas to have to scroll over every time someone posted a URL. There's gotta be some settings or something that make mine wrap when yours don't. Maybe next week sometime we can figure it out, if you know anything about that. I wouldn't even know where to start looking at settings or toggles.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Am I the only one having this problem? Does anyone know how to set it up the way Joann evidently has hers set up? My computer may be a little old, but my monitor is a nice new flatscreen.

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Posted By: <b>Anthony</b><p>it wrapped on my larger monitors, but spread wide on my laptop. No idea why, same browser (Safari)

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Thank you James!