PSA 10's - most are overrated [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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12-06-2007, 04:36 PM

Posted By: steveI just do not understand the whole PSA 10 theory. I have owned several/closely examined several - they should not be in "10" slabs !!! I bought then sold a 10 that had obvious color fade. I bought then sold a 10 that was medium out of register. I bought then sold a 10 that had a micro corner touch. Now I see a 10 on ebay that is a) tilt cut, b) big old print dot that DOES detract from overall appeal, c) has print smudge on top white border. I only have kept two PSA 10's in my years of collecting - both 1980's issues. PSA 10's are, for the most part, the biggest over value in our hobby. Ticks me off when PSA slabs a 10 when the card has no right to the grade. Thoughts? steve.

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12-06-2007, 05:34 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI agree, the grade is completely arbitrary in most cases and sometimes even wrong, but people whose goal in life is to rank the highest on the set registry will pay insane prices for the 10 label. So what can ya do. EDIT TO ADD I think there may be a thread on here about the 65 Koufax leaders card in PSA 10 that went for 20K.

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12-06-2007, 06:00 PM

Posted By: BradIt seems most people can’t think for themselves when analyzing cards and would fell more comfortable letting a 3rd party do it for them ($). My 1st instinct when buying a graded card would have to be “buy the card not the grade”. I believe some collector’s fork out big money on high grade cards just for the grade, not examining the card for themselves (EBay, ect…), this makes no scenes. Corruption is promoted: PSA 10's are, for the most part, the biggest over value in our hobby. Ticks me off when PSA slabs a 10 when the card has no right to the grade. Hmmm...

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12-06-2007, 06:04 PM

Posted By: Dave FSince seemlingly all my cards are pre-world war 1 I don't think i'll ever have to worry about having to judge a PSA 10 in my collection.

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12-06-2007, 06:18 PM

Posted By: Dave WilliamsWhat I find absurd is say Post Cereal, Bazooka, Strip Card issues, that if just a tiny bit of the dotted line is missing, it's Authentic. But have the lines there and you've got a 9 or 10. Both cards look the same. Oh well, buy the Authentics and sell the 10's.

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12-06-2007, 06:36 PM

Posted By: Jason LThe multiples that people pay for 10s over 9s is astounding. That's why I stick to the 9s with the more recent stuff that I collect for the fun of competing on the Registry. vintage and 50s-70s, I go as high as I can afford All that said, I can't actually tell any difference between a 7 and a 10. This is what makes me a very stupid collector. Some days (like when I need to pay the heating and phone bills), I truly wish it all wasn't so much FUN!!!!

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12-06-2007, 08:40 PM

Posted By: peter chaoPSA 10s are overpriced, but if you go to the right local card show, you can buy them at a discount just like any other card. Peter C.

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12-06-2007, 09:36 PM

Posted By: BillI like to purchase SGC preferably with pre-war cards. Granted, I know it's not 100% but I don't have a vast amount of knowledge to tell some fakes or microscopic trim jobs. For that reason, I'll purchase the graded cards and most of the time, just bust them out if I'm keeping it for my collection. If I intend to resell it down the road, I leave it in. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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12-06-2007, 10:14 PM

Posted By: Brian<<PSA 10s are overpriced, but if you go to the right local card show, you can buy them at a discount just like any other card.>> Which shows? Which cards? Details please.

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12-06-2007, 10:17 PM

Posted By: marty quinnpete c, next time you go to the local card show please pick me up a 1953 topps mantle at discount, i will pay a finders fee, thanks pete...just a joke pete, i needed a laugh..

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12-07-2007, 03:09 AM

Posted By: DavalilloI agree --go for the 9s. But sometimes you have to go for the 10s if you are competing on the PSA Set Registry if you want to win.

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12-07-2007, 05:33 AM

Posted By: D. C. MarkelSteve, I'm just curious. Is this another "Let's-find-another-angle-to-bash-PSA thread" or is this a criticism against the "Gem Mint" designation in general? In other words, is this an argument by silence that SGC and GAI Gem Mint cards are always spot on with their grades?

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12-07-2007, 06:16 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinTrust me; NO ONE is discounting vintage PSA 10's. However, in the modern world; cards such as the 1989 Topps Traded Ken Griffey Jr card are available at a discount at shows/internet. PC: I say the same thing all the time (And yes I can as guilty as this as anyone) -- what you say may be correct but take the extra 30 seconds to make sure you know exactly what you are writing Regards Rich

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12-07-2007, 06:42 AM

Posted By: Jason Land if it is, shame on you! They came up with an amazing marketing-product idea. Think about it. It appeals to a very base desire/emotion in humans. There's nothing more satisfying than the acquisition of something that is thought to be perfect - except perhaps cometing against others to acquire it!!!

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12-07-2007, 06:43 AM

Posted By: steveNo, I am not PSA bashing. I don't care if the card is a "10" in a Donald Duck slab - if the characteristics are such that it should not be a "10" - it should not be a "10" - by any grader. Yes, PSA sometimes gets it right. Steve.

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12-07-2007, 07:02 AM

Posted By: leonThe grade of a "10" is so rare in Pre-War that I think it's almost a moot question. How many "10" pre-war cards are there for sale each year? Answer- not too many.... The whole registry thing is certainly a great marketing idea..no one can discount that....regards

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12-07-2007, 07:41 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI am not a card grader, so I cannot tell the difference between a 9 and a 10. Generally, I don't inspect my cards closely enough to care. Other people do, though, and for one of the many, many styles of collecting, the number grade is very important. That's great, because it creates demand and interest and activity in our hobby. I know a gentleman who is collecting a modern set, all in 10. There are more than 700 cards in the set. Even though the cards themselves are readily available, it takes the same amount of searching to build a modern set in 10 as it does to build a scarce vintage set. It creates a level of challenge that is exciting and interesting. I have thought - often - of trying to build a 1981 Fleer set in SGC 98 or better. You can buy the cards unopened today; a vending box is about $15 and yields you 500 cards. For the price I paid for the Henry Johnson Babe Ruth I bought two weeks ago, I could buy more than 50,000 raw, unopened 1981 Fleers in an effort to try and assemble the set in SGC 98. Given that I try not to worry about the value of the cards, and focus instead on how much I like them, and given that the 1981 Fleer set blew my mind when I was 11 years old and really turned me into the collector I am today, why haven't I done this? Why have I elected to build a Henry Johnson Confectioners set instead? Because building the 1981 Fleer set in 98 or better would be really, really hard. I would lose my patience. So I don't knock it. At all. Because in a lot of ways, it's just as hard to seek out the highest-grade cards as it is to seek out the scarcest. It's just another facet of collecting in this great hobby. -Al

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12-07-2007, 07:50 AM

Posted By: Red"If the characteristics are such that it should not be a "10" - it should not be a "10" - by any grader." Your requirements for what you consider a 10 may be different than what PSA allows for a 10 based on their printed standards. Here are PSA's and SGC's description of what they'll put in a 10 holder. "A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse." "98 GEM 10: 55/45 or better centering, sharp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear. A slight print spot visible under close scrutiny is allowable if it does not detract from the aesthetics of the card." The both leave a lot of room sure for minor factory issues on really nice looking cards with both SGC and PSA. You don't have to agree with them. Just select tens that meet your rigid standards. Or if you really want to be selective you can try your luck with an SGC 100 Pristine. It's like an 11. You know there are flaws hiding somewhere with that "virtually flawless" qualifier. "100 PRISTINE: A "virtually flawless" card. 50/50 centering, crisp focus, four sharp corners*, free of stains, no breaks in surface gloss, no print or refractor lines, and no visible wear under magnification."

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12-07-2007, 08:17 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeYes 10's are the most overrated, then 9's, then 8's, then 7's etc.. etc..

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12-07-2007, 09:28 AM

Posted By: Jim DaleIts interesting what PSA does with its "10s." There was a PSA 9 Nolan Ryan rookie that sold for 10k a few months ago - I think the buyer thought it could become the lone ten or why pay 2x waht the previous 9's were selling for? The card looked awesome - I could not see what brought it down to a '9." Then go and study some of the PSA 10 Montana rookie cards - OMG - they allow a more then 60/40 off center back be a 10. Want to see one - email me. Buy the card - not the grade - we have all heard it, said it, and if you do that very thing the grading doesn't really matter. Its just a first point of order to put your card in the range. PS...I really like BGS 10s in modern cards...I have only found one that made me scratch my head and wonder why.

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12-07-2007, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinOf which, as Al said there is still a plethora of unopened available; or unpicked stock; try to finish a set in PSA 10 or BGS 9.5 or SGC 98, etc; I give you 2 words -- good luck. Quality control on some of these sets were hideous: Quick example 1981 Donruss Keith Hernandez -- trust me on this one. Regards Rich

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12-07-2007, 11:58 AM

Posted By: peter chaoRich, Thanks for the advice, there are cards of modern day players in PSA 10 which can be purchased at a discount in local shows. Peter C.

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12-07-2007, 12:08 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the only vintage cards that could ever grade a 10 would be Fan Craze, National Game, etc., as well as the 13 known T206 (out of about a billion).

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12-07-2007, 01:10 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Barry- A handful of the 1914 CJ's that Stucklemeyer purchased last year were graded SGC 98 GEM MINT. PSA finally also graded some CJs at the PSA 10 level...three of them, two of which are in the current Mastro Auction. I also recall one SGC 98 Old Judge card...but I do recall some spirited debate among some people about whether or not that card's grade was justified... Marc

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12-07-2007, 01:20 PM

Posted By: BrianI will try again Peter, you said --- <<PSA 10s are overpriced, but if you go to the right local card show, you can buy them at a discount just like any other card.>> Which shows? Which cards? Details please.

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12-07-2007, 01:28 PM

Posted By: peter chaoI only know about Bay Area Shows, there's a show every 2-3 months in Santa Clara and there's a show every weekend in Hayward, CA. Normally, Beckett's online will give you the dates and times of these shows on their calendar. Peter C.

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12-07-2007, 01:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Not true--I have pre-war vintage PSA 10s.

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12-07-2007, 02:17 PM

Posted By: BrianAnd Peter you say that these shows sell PSA 10s at a discout. Which years, which cards, and how much of a discount?

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12-07-2007, 02:37 PM

Posted By: peter chaoIt's mostly the modern cards, from about 1985 to 1989 at about 20% discount, but you need to spend time negotiating and at some shows you won't find any available. Peter C.

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12-07-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: BrianSorry Peter, since this is a vintage board, I foolishly thought you were speaking about vintage cards. Apologies.

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12-07-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: peter chaoBrian, I wish they were vintage cards...sigh. Peter C.

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12-07-2007, 03:04 PM

Posted By: BrianPerhaps you could share your vast knowledge of the modern market here <a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/83587" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/83587</a> ?

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12-07-2007, 03:19 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI guess there are a few others. Of course to me a 9 and 10 look the same.

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12-07-2007, 03:50 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmI suppose that if you look at any card long enough, you can find something about it that isn't "perfect." But there are some cards that really stand out from all others as being exceptionally well produced and preserved. Like pornography, you know it when you see it, I guess. I think that current grading company standards include centering allowances that are too liberal for Mint 9, or even for Gem Mint 10. Maybe I'm just a stickler for centering. But according to the definitions I grew up with, a Mint card shouldn't have anything whatsoever that distracts significantly from the eye appeal, and a Gem Mint card should be one of those you look at and say "wow, that is unbelievable. That's as good as it gets." Here is a 1968 Topps Mantle PSA 10 with a bit of a tilt in the centering on the reverse. It does meet PSA's standards, but should that be a 10? <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/Mantle68f.jpg"> <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/Mantle68b.jpg"> I don't know if these should be 10's, but it is hard to imagine cards much nicer looking than these (from Marshall Fogel's collection): <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/Mantle52-1.jpg"> <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/Mantle53.jpg"> and here's a pre-war example (one of only 9 PSA 10's, out of about 42,000 total 1933 Goudeys that have been graded to date): <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/Warneke.jpg">

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12-07-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: BradIF you were to cracked out the same cards listed above and resubmit them, do you think the cards would receive PSA 10??? I believe it all depends on who's submitting the cards! hmmm...

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12-07-2007, 04:26 PM

Posted By: Jim DaleEXCELLENT point. I don't for a moment believe that I have nearly the chance of getting a PSA 10 with a 10 to 20 card submission as the big dealers with 100's of cards going through do. Its theory, it can't hardly be proven unless someone wants to spend the cash, but I just don't for the life of me believe all submissions are considered equal. Sorry - just no trust. That said I still buy 10's when I can from ebay and other sources.

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12-07-2007, 05:17 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1196990226.JPG">

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12-07-2007, 05:44 PM

Posted By: BradHere's an extremely high graded 51 Mantle an SGC 96, most prewar collectors consider SGC as being the toughest grading Co. in the industry. I wonder if SGC would grade the PSA 10’s “listed above” an SGC 100, I highly doubt it, if anything the cards would be down graded! It proves that humans are not reliable and far from consistent when grading high grade cards! <img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/MapleCrispetteV117/Canadian%20Type%20Cards/Virtual%20Want%20List/lrg-719-_162_411_60_1951_bowman__25.jpg">

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12-07-2007, 06:48 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderPSA's GEM MINT 10 is a business construct designed to inflate the value of a small percentage of cards (and by extension the value of PSA services) beyond what should objectively be realized. It has succeeded as a business construct but fails as a logical construct. SGC is even worse than PSA on this count. It has separate categories for GEM 98 and PRISTINE 100 which extend this artifice even further. In my book, a card is either MINT or it is not. No grade should exist above MINT.

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12-07-2007, 07:12 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliSo the SGC 101 REALLY PRISTINE would be out of the question, then? -Al

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12-07-2007, 07:15 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCscot- very well put.

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12-07-2007, 07:35 PM

Posted By: BradPSA 10 = SGC96! Thoughts...

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12-07-2007, 07:40 PM

Posted By: BillWell, my belief is if you don't like the way grading companies run their show, don't deal with them. It's as simple as that. Some people want their cards to look as good as possible and will pay what they can for that card. To some people, obtaining cards in that high of a grade is part of the challenge for them and they like the chase. To say that a grade is overrated makes no sense. To one person, it may be a waste of money. To the next, it's part of their collecting hobby. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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12-07-2007, 09:49 PM

Posted By: James GalloHere is how the modern card world compares the 3 companies BGS 9.5= PSA 10 = SGC 98 You would get a huge premium for a BGS 10. I don't see many SGC 100 and the ones I do see are really bad players with people trying to get a ton for them. I actually took 3 cards to PSA at the National and said I think these are all over graded. They were all PSA 10's and none were down graded. I still feel those cards are incorrectly graded. That being said I worry about buying a high end PSA pre-war card. I have considered buying PSA 7-9 Cracker Jacks, but I would never take the card from the case and only try to cross it, but I would be very concerened about them not crossing, so I wait until I either can buy one on the low end or get one in an SGC holder. As said in another post Everyone should be able to find something wrong with every card if they look long enough, I just think there needs to be a feeling that well this is the best there is so it is a 10. The goudey looks almost fake it's so mint and bright, to me that is a 10. James G Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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12-08-2007, 01:00 AM

Posted By: AnonymousIt seems like you are just upset because you cant afford the higher grades. I say if you are going to accept one of the companies opinions you must accept all of them. So if you think a PSA 5 is a 5 then a PSA 10 is a 10. If you dont agree with the grading system go ahead and crack your cards out of their holders and make your own case. Lets see you sell the card then, I would really be impressed if someone " bought the card and not the grade". The 3rd party graders have to factor error in especially with pre 1960's because not even the machines we use today are always precise. And the most important point is without these 3rd party graders we would have no uniform system to measure the quality of cards, so unless the whole card community wants to vote on every card grade together we must accept their comments.

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12-08-2007, 06:33 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWe still don't have a uniform system to grade and evaluate cards. Each of the grading companies has somewhat different criteria, and each exhibits at least some level of inconsistency. That's far from uniform.

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12-08-2007, 08:14 AM

Posted By: PaulI don't get it. Just about everyone who has posted has agreed that the "Gem Mint" grade is awarded arbitrarily. Some may blame the grader, some may blame bias in favor of the submitter, and some may blame random luck. But the bottom line is, almost everyone agrees it is not based on merit. Yet, a whole bunch of people have volunteered that they seek out these cards. Why? I know people want to "win" on the registry. But why would anyone want to win a game when they know the game is rigged? And I know people want a collecting challenge. But is it really fun to try to collect only those cards that have been arbitrarily awarded an arbitrary grade? Why not just collect only "9"s that have a serial number ending in "7"? That would be equally challenging. Someone said above that it's a marketing ploy. I definitely agree. I'm just surprised that so many people fall for it, even with full knowledge that it's a marketing ploy. It's just bizarre to me. I know, I shouldn't be critical of what other people collect. I should just be happy that they are spending their money on cards that I'm not buying, creating less competition for the cards I really want. For that, I am thankful.

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12-08-2007, 08:40 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI gladly would buy his cards in his own holder and not the grade. I buy tons of raw cards but I really do not care about the condition if I need it for my set. I surely do not need anyone to tell me what condition it is in. I understand that many of you buy for different reasons, investment etc.. And in those cases, yes, you need the 3rd party grading services. The grading services are also needed because of the amount of fraud on the internet. Dan.

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12-08-2007, 10:01 AM

Posted By: Bill"And I know people want a collecting challenge. But is it really fun to try to collect only those cards that have been arbitrarily awarded an arbitrary grade? Why not just collect only "9"s that have a serial number ending in "7"? That would be equally challenging." ================================================== =============================================== To some people it might be fun, to each his own. I'm sure if somebody found it fun to collect "9"s ending in a specific number they would go for it. I don't believe that somebody who collects a specific item for one reason is just as likely to go after another challenge just because it's equally challenging. Some people believe the grading is fair, other's do not. Every person has an opinion on it and I'm sure might affect how they collect. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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12-08-2007, 10:32 AM

Posted By: AlanIf you ever attend one of those National PSA luncheons, you'll realize the registry is really just a friendly competitive fraternity. It's sort of like when classmates compete for the prettiest coed.

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12-08-2007, 10:33 AM

Posted By: leonI am going to start collecting e221 and e222 only in PSA 10...... Also, I am going to go ahead and try to complete my Four Base Hits set in PSA 10 too.... If anyone has any leads on some of these please let me know. I am anxious to complete these 3 sets....asap....

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12-08-2007, 10:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellFirst of all, of course the gem mint grade is not arbitrary. There are a large number of submitters who go through modern cards very carefully trying to pick out the 10s from the 9s--many of them with great success. Nobody is saying PSA is perfect but without question the average 10 is a grade up from the average 9 just like 8s are a grade up from the 7s. Look at the 10s--they appear to be perfect--the 9s are hit and miss. Are the 10s worth 5-10X a 9--most of the time no but if it is a pop 1 psa 10 in a vintage set any day of the week.

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12-08-2007, 11:19 AM

Posted By: Jim DaleIf PSA 10's are "common" and its something I want to collect then I'll get the PSA 10's over the 9's and 8's. For example my Ozzie Smith collection is nothing but PSA 10's. Some are only $5 where as the rookie is nearly $2k. In 1975 mini's the 10's are 200/500 depending on who so I go for 8's and 9's because its a 660 card set and a set of 10's isn't practical to my budget. In vintage I hardly even imagined getting a PSA 10. What are there - someone said - 13 PSA 10 T206 cards? I'm glad to have part ownership of a 9 and an SGC 96. Those are fine by me.

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12-08-2007, 01:55 PM

Posted By: PaulLeon, I know it's your forum. But your post really should be in the buy/sell section. You are getting an unfair advantage in your quest for PSA10 Four Base Hit cards by posting in this thread.

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12-08-2007, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmI agree with Jim C. that Gem Mint is a legitimate grade. It may well serve PSA's marketing purposes to use it, but it is a term collectors have used over the years to communicate with each other about the condition of cards. Yes Mint means 'no defects', and in theory a card either has defects or it doesn't, but in practice it isn't quite that clear-cut, because of the subjectivity inherent in each person's evaluation of defects. (And again, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' card.) Mint means essentially problem free; there is nothing negative worth noting. Gem Mint means "absolutely, no doubt about it, you'd have to be crazy not to think this one is Mint." I remember buying a 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle card from Barry Sloate back in the mid-1980's, back in the days when purchases usually had to be done sight unseen, based on descriptions written in ads or given over the telephone. I asked him on the phone if the card was Mint, and he said something like, "absolutely, in fact about the only way I can describe this one is to say that it is Gem Mint." (emphasis on the word 'Gem') That let me know that this was really an exceptional card, and if I didn't like this one, I probably wouldn't be happy with any example. Sure enough it was one of the nicest cards I ever had. Set me back $100 too, as I remember. Now the grading companies have tried to give 'precise' definitions of the attributes of a Gem Mint card (e.g. tighter centering requirements than a merely Mint card and so on), just as they have done for the other grades. Precise definitions of inherently subjective qualities are never entirely satisfactory, of course, but I think the general criteria they have laid out cover the grade range reasonably well. (Except, as I said before, I think that their centering standards are a bit too lax, for all grades.)

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12-08-2007, 02:40 PM

Posted By: barrysloateEric- did it grade? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-08-2007, 02:52 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmBarry -- unfortunately I sold the 1956 Topps Mantle card a long time ago, as part of a high grade complete set that I put together. That was long before professional grading came along. The Mantle was definitely the centerpiece of the set. I seem to remember that I had invested about $1000 in the set during 1984-85 and was able to sell it in 1987 for about $4500. Prices were really taking off then.

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12-08-2007, 02:58 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYou have a better memory than me. I don't remember that 56 Mantle, but I didn't forget the fabulous red Cobb you sold me. That was the best one I had ever seen.

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12-08-2007, 03:09 PM

Posted By: steveCan a PSA 10 have an obvious tilt cut ? Y/N Can a PSA 10 have obvious color fade ? Y/N Can a PSA 10 have obvious print dot(s) ? Y/N Or is the grade more of a function of pure wear ONLY - ie. razor corners/edges ? Y/N steve

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12-08-2007, 03:53 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmIf by "obvious," you mean "definitely detracting from eye appeal," I would say the answer to all three questions should be "no," even for PSA 9. There is a regular poster here (I forgot who) who has suggested having two separate grade components to rate (1) the original quality of a card (i.e. at time of manufacture, including centering and print/image quality) and (2) its degree of preservation (i.e. avoidance of wear to corners, edges, and surface due to handling). That would make some sense, in fact I think it would be particularly helpful to rate centering separately (especially since it can be objectively measured). But that would make grading more complicated of course. In any case we are stuck for now with a system that combines all defect types into a single numerical indicator.