Kevin Saucier - Adding Value [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-19-2007, 06:49 AM

Posted By: MikeUIt all depends on how Kevin wants to market his company. 1. Does he simply want to be an extra set of eyes for a couple of wealthy collectors and make a very minimal amount of money. 2. Does he want to make a differnce and does he truly have the talent to make a strong influence with dealers and grading companies. Right now if I am a large dealer, this is something I might say: 1. I have little respect for Kevin, but if I have to humor a good client and go through this motion to sell some cars, no big deal. I really do not care too much if Kevin rejects the card, because I can sell it to others and I also have plenty of other cards to sell Jim. If Kevin were to post the serial numbers: 1. Dealers and graders would respect what he has to say and his opinion would be of real value. 2. If Kevin does not add that kind of value, he would be exposed and pushed out of business. If Kevin is good and exposes a bad card: 1. Wouldn't the dealer have recourse with the grading company to alleviate his loss. 2. Kevin may be wrong once in a awhile, but if he is right more often then not, a revolution in the right direction can take place. My point is unless Kevin does something like this to truly add value to the hobby, his presence is not needed for me personally or for anyone that is truly trying to better the hobby. If he took it to the next level, that is something that could be special.

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11-19-2007, 07:06 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, So how does he make money under your vision? I know of at least one major collector who has had Mike look at a significant percentage of the cards in his collection. Steve, You can't be serious. PSA and SGC will disagree if a card is altered. Heck, I have had a grading company disagree with itself. Send it in once its altered--send it in again its an 8. One would bother with this so as to minimize the risk of having altered cards in his collection.

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11-19-2007, 08:15 AM

Posted By: MikeU"Mike, So how does he make money under your vision? I know of at least one major collector who has had Mike look at a significant percentage of the cards in his collection." Jim, To bring the dicussion full circle: Genesis: 1. This does nothing to clean up the hobby, which I thought was always an underlying premise of these efforts. 2. This is simply a second set of eyes for collectors. 3. The second set is needed for you because you do not trust PSA to either get is right a majority of the time or reimburse you for bunk cards. Things I do not understand (My ignorance): 1. You trust Mike Baker more than PSA, but will not use them. 2. You trust Dave Forman more than PSA, but will not use them. 3. You trust Derek Grady more than PSA, but would not buy from Mastro and probably do not currently buy from Heritage. 4. As a HOF collector, you do not hold PSA to task for bunk cards. You do exactly what they want by sticking with them despite items 1-3 and will even pay other parties addition money to double check there cards. 5. Your entire problem is that PSA does not guarantee their product. 6. For newly started sets, there is no reason why you could not use a different grader that gives you more assurance. Switching Costs: 1. For you at this point, I can appreciate for the sets you have underway, that it would be a big deal to switch and you feel the best option is a second set of eyes. This allows a niche for Kevin. Kevins Current Niche: 1. PSA collectors that feel their switching costs are too high and despite their lack of guarantee are plowing forward. 2. To compensate for the lack of guarantee, they want a second set of eyes to feel good about purchases. 3. These collectors have several options i.e. Mike Baker as you mentioned above, who are much more visable or wholly accepted. 4. Kevin has been uable to secure a job at either PSA or GAI. This could steer many of the collectors in chosing other second opinion individuals. 5. Most collectors need or desire any other opinion than the one on the slab, regardless if it is GAI, PSA, SGC or BVG. That is enough in and of itself. 6. Kevin has obviously secured Jim's business and could get more, but there are certinaly limitations noted in 1-5. My Potential Current Needs for Kevin: 1. I use SGC, so I am comfortable with their guarantee and need nothing else. 2. However, lets say I am ready to buy an SGC 88/8 49 Leaf Paige. This is a lot of money for me and I would not mind a second opinion. 3. For this issue, I would probably track down Ted Z. before Kevin. 4. Since Kevin and Ted Z. can give advice with no consequence, it does not mean a great deal, but I might pass on a card that Ted Z. gave the thumbs down on. So there is some value in gut feeling, but nothing of real substance. Future Potenial For Kevin: 1. If Kevin posted certification numbers on his site, I would probably steer clear of those cards. That is a gut feeling value. 2. Once he does this, initially graders will likely say (He can not get a job here, he is not a grader, he is second rate etc.) They will tell this to dealers and try to undermine Kevin. 3. Kevin either has the skills or not. If not he will sputter quickly and should simply stick to his non-consequence 2nd opinon plan. 4. If Kevin does have the skills, he should be able to point out the specifc flaws to the graders and dealers to help pull the cards off the market and help dealers obtain their money back from the graders. 5. If he has enough skill to do #4, then he has something special and could really make some money and be a valued source. That was my vision plan.

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11-19-2007, 08:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, You don't understand--you're right. You would be better off trying not to get inside my head and try to figure out what I think. I have tried to get a collectors group going and have met with derision by some and lack of interest by most of the remainder so this is something I am going to do for me. I am acting in my own self interest by having an expert look at my expensive card purchases before I buy them. Your proposal is simply not workable. I don't understand SGC's guarantee--so if Kevin says it is likely altered and SGC says it is legit do you get your money back or do you only get your money back if they agree they screwed up the first time. And I like PSA--I just want a second pair of expert eyes on my expensive cards.

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11-19-2007, 08:38 AM

Posted By: Marc S.I prefer higher-grade cards to lower-grade ones, and my current collecting interests lie primarily in pre-war and 19th century rather than modern. Alterations are a big problem in the hobby, I know and understand that. And I have a good deal of money tied up in my collection. All that said, these repeated discussions sadden me. If I can't either a) educate myself to some limited degree for becoming comfortable with cards or b) take a leap of faith and trust the dealers/collectors with whom I trade and do business, then the hobby lacks that pizazz that made me want to collect again. I regard Kevin's expertise and consant experimentation something that makes him a true student of the hobby, and one that can teach many of us what to be careful for. And I wish him great success in any hobby-related ventures that he may take on in a more meaningful context. But if I can't have fun in this hobby, I'll simply walk away. These dicsussions are important...but in my mind, they should be in the 10% range of what we spend our time discussing. But it seems to be to be a dominant, recurring theme, at which point I question how much "fun" we are all having? Certainly we are not forensic paper anthropologists, where these discussions are enthralling, mind-boggling and interesting so much that we want to relate these stories to our non-hobby friends and family. ~marc

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11-19-2007, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI think that Mike's idea is the right idea. There is pro's and con's to what Kevin is offering and if he does not publish on the site than it is a dishonest business benefiting only the submitter. If the submitter does not like it, heck he can just resubmit it to the grading company that gave the orignal grade. Jim, if you don't think there is some risk involved on both ends than your are really confused. I really have not figured out your logic in this whole matter, you feel it is a great service but if Kevin does something that you feel we not make money but would benefit the site and his project, that it is than OK not to OUT some BADS? I think KEvin's idea is a noble one but is going to take alot of work. Lee

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11-19-2007, 08:57 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLee, No dealer would want to have or would make his sale to me contingent upon Kevin's OK if he thought it could end up on a blacklist--anyone with any sense can figure that out. Marc, I agree with you in principal--one issue I have is that I would typically buy from several hundred dealers in a given year.

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11-19-2007, 09:23 AM

Posted By: MattJim - couldn't your same argument be made regarding the advent of the slabbing era? No dealer would want to submit a card for slabbing if the end result could be that the card was deemed a reproduction or trimmed? But as we know that logic did not hold then.

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11-19-2007, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensSo, Kevin's service would only benefit the person putting paying for Kevin's services and if Kevin feels it's altered then what you are saying is that it is alright for them to go sell the card without any mention of Kevin's findings. To me there is no reason that Kevin could not charge to find out if he has already looked a card and have it on his website, heck, he could make unlimited amounts of money on the same card. For this whole thing to work, the buyers are going to have to start demanding his services from the sellers, until that hurt the bottom line of the seller it just will not make a difference. It is a good start, but if it is like people's feelings on auction house (I don't like what they are doing, but if they have a card I want I will bid on it.) mentality. It just won't matter. Lee

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11-19-2007, 09:37 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensMark S., I also agree that the hobby should be fun but with the amount of money involved that is a little tough because there are too many cheats out there. If I didn't enjoy the cards I certainly would be selling more. I personally believe that I have a decent grasp on altering but if you would like to see my collection of slipped through my first inspection only to find out that are altered are plentiful (around 30 cards). There is a reason that every trade or service has experts, because they are needed. The experts gain there reputation through experience and results, must of us don't have the time to get the experience. Lee

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11-19-2007, 09:42 AM

Posted By: Frank EvanovCarrying this over from the other thread that was locked. As you recall, I questioned Kevin's credentials, his documented experience and the source of his expertise: from Jim: "Credentials?--I have read his posts here and on the other board on alterations and he has actually gotten cards past Mike Baker who I consider the best grader in the business." Those are credentials Jim?? Getting a card past Baker hardly qualifies. And who is to say that this actually happened? from Jim: "Just because Kevin is uncomfortable and lets say SGC or PSA grades it doesn't mean the card is altered." Whoa, hold on now. Isn't that the whole point? Presumably I would be paying Kevin for his "expert opinion" that a card is altered...not for him telling me he's "uncomfortable" with a card. And if he is uncomfortable, you are then saying it doesn't mean the card is altered? Frank

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11-19-2007, 09:55 AM

Posted By: BrianWriting a business plan on a public message board isn't a recipe for success. Let Kevin start his business, if he chooses. It will succeed or fail on its own merits.

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11-19-2007, 09:57 AM

Posted By: MikeUJim, Taking the element out of my post of trying to get in your head, I think it does give a clear illustration of the potential Kevin could bring vs. simply being a set of 2nd eyes. I strongly disagree that it would simply not be workable. It is only not workable if Kevin does not truly have the skill-set to objectively show PSA, BVG, GAI and SGC their errors. Without this, you are right, no dealer would agree to have his cards blacklisted by someone with no respect/skill-set. However, with respect and skill-set, Kevin could single handedly assist dealers in getting reimbursed for bunk cards from graders. This is where Kevin would have a true value proposition vs. just another set of 2nd eyes. In your SGC example, lets say Kevin says an SGC card is bunk. He has objective information and the collector or dealer and Kevin go to Dave Forman for an answer. There are a couple of options: 1. Kevin objectively shows Dave the problem, he agrees and pulls the card off the market. 2. Dave shows Kevin why he is wrong. 3. There is an impass. For this, I think Kevin should have two categories of rejection i.e. some doubt of authenticy/alteration, but can not completely substantiate the doubt and no doubt with objective information that the card is not authentic or is altered. I think the no doubt categories could be argued with the grading companies. The "some doubt" statements are meaningless.

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11-19-2007, 10:01 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMatt, I don't think its the same--a dealer could always sell the card raw if it did not grade. Lee, I agree with part of what you say. I think in the beginning Kevin works for who pays him and no disclosure is necessary. Over time, it would be great if buyers demanded Kevin's approval on graded cards--not holding my breath on this one however. Frank, Who is to say it happened? Kevin said it--are you suggesting he is lieing? All one would have to do is ask Mike. On your second point, I don't think its clearcut on every card. Reasonable people can disagree. If he has doubts I will pass.

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11-19-2007, 10:03 AM

Posted By: peter chaoIt was mentioned earlier...Kevin consider buying out or merging with GAI. At this time buying them out would be relatively inexpensive. It probably would require no more than a minimal investment. Pay for their business license, back rent, and a few extra dollars for what remains of their goodwill. Peter C.

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11-19-2007, 10:06 AM

Posted By: G. MainesConsultants are commonly employed, and most provide their services confidentially. Medical, Legal, Technical. Professional, and other experts are routine in the considerations of many. There is no cause to assume that services which Kevin may offer should fall outside of this framework, unless it is perceived as advantageous to those directly involved. imo

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11-19-2007, 10:07 AM

Posted By: SteveKevin/Jim, Your ideas are a positive step though controversial with collectors. I'm no businessman but have you considered this route?.. Offer a Grade School -short course or workshop to furthur certify the current employees that work for psa, sgc, bvg, gai etc. You could even develop a program for the collectors themselves, that would likely garner great interest.

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11-19-2007, 10:08 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, It would be nice if everything worked out like you described but I just don't think its realistic. Do not believe Joe Orlando would entertain the idea of Kevin showing their expert graders why they are wrong. Also again I would come back to the point that Kevin if he undertakes this has got to driven ultimately by economics. Just do not see the econonmics of your business model.

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11-19-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaAhhhh....now I understand why no one comes forth with any evidence of these altered cards. They are reserving their right to recirculate the card back into the hobby at a maximum profit. So far I am unimpressed with any efforts to clean up the hobby.

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11-19-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: Bob<<<All that said, these repeated discussions sadden me. If I can't either a) educate myself to some limited degree for becoming comfortable with cards or b) take a leap of faith and trust the dealers/collectors with whom I trade and do business, then the hobby lacks that pizazz that made me want to collect again. But if I can't have fun in this hobby, I'll simply walk away. These dicsussions are important...but in my mind, they should be in the 10% range of what we spend our time discussing. >>>> Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you Marc. tbob

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11-19-2007, 10:58 AM

Posted By: cmokingA list of the certs are almost useless when companies like Memory Lane can get Joe Orlando to change them for them in a deceptive manner.

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11-19-2007, 11:09 AM

Posted By: Kevin Sacuier <img src="http://www.simphoni.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/icon_popcorn.gif">

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11-19-2007, 11:18 AM

Posted By: JimBPersonally, I have not seen a substantial reason to trust Kevin Saucier's opinion above SGC's. He seems to be a reasonably competent *card doctor*, though we do not know the limits of his abilities in that regard. But that does not necessarily mean that he is going to be any better at detecting alterations than the graders at SGC or PSA. They get trained to look for the same things he knows about. He could not even get a job with PSA or GAI, correct? He claims to have gotten some types of alterations past the grading companies (though I do not remember seeing any examples). But if these sorts of alterations are undetectable, there is no reason to think he would catch them either if performed by somebody else. Getting something by the graders does not equate with an ability to detect alteration. I do not see the advantage of complicating the situation here. Assuming there needs to be some sort of reform, perhaps a better idea would be to have an independent review of the grading companies executed by sending in X number of altered cards (mixed in with unaltered cards) to each grading company periodically. The same cards would be sent to the all the major grading companies and then the results would be compared and made public. But adding another layer of "authentication" seems tedious and unnecessarily complicated to me, whether it is done by Kevin or anybody else. JimB

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11-19-2007, 11:24 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, You know you've "arrived" not just when there is a separate thread about you but when Leon closes another about you to focus on another one with your name in the title.

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11-19-2007, 11:29 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim B, you said it exactly how I would have if I was as eloquent as you. It's time for Kevin to tell us exactly why he should be trusted over SGC and PSA...show us some of those cards in holders that you got past the graders. edited to make clear which Jim I was referring to.

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11-19-2007, 11:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, He never claimed he should be trusted over PSA and SGC. He also has never announced he is going into business. For those who know him and trust his judgment, he can probably have a pretty nice side business.

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11-19-2007, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaIsn't starting a website called AlteredCards.com considered "going into business"? I'm failing to see how this helps clean up the hobby if none of Kevin's work will be reported to anyone but the submitters.

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11-19-2007, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus"So far I am unimpressed with any efforts to clean up the hobby." Dan's thoughts echo mine. Unless and until the day comes that people who claim to really care about cleaning up the hobby are prepared to put their money where their mouths are, nothing major is going to come of this. And what specifically do I refer to? The tap dance around the main issue -- getting slabbed altered cards out of their slabs. This is not going to happen merely by getting a second opinion about some prospective purchase. Say it comes back negative? Then all that's been accomplished is that the purchase will not take place. However, the card will remain in its slab ready to be gobbled up by the next prospective purchaser. Until the day comes that people are prepared to have their "suspect" (e.g., lacking provenance, coming from issues with a significant rate of alteration, etc.) slabbed cards re-examined and have those deemed altered put in slabs that accurately indicate the true state of the card, this is all hypocritical banter.

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11-19-2007, 12:17 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThis is beginning to look like a problem without a solution. There are too many different opinions regarding how any card can objectively be deemed unaltered and original. Maybe the best solution is for the graders to spend more time examining valuable vintage cards, so that they get it right with such frequency that a second set of eyes won't be needed. They can always have more training and become more skilled at what they do. After reading through this thread I realized there is no way we will ever reach a universal agreement on this issue.

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11-19-2007, 12:22 PM

Posted By: MattI would just suggest further, even if Kevin would have a registry of rejected slabs, the slab owners would probably just pop the cards out and resubmit to get a new slab #.

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11-19-2007, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthBarry, But there really is a universal answer. Given the quantity of sets registered with SGC and PSA, given that prices for graded material continues to skyrocket and given the sheer volume of cards PSA and SGC are grading, it is safe to conclude the majority of people do not really have an issue with the shortcomings of grading. If they did they could effect a change. They put the grading companies in business and they can put them out of business. I am also fairly certain that there could be a legal issue for Kevin were he to place a cert number on his site stating a card he examined, while in the holder, is altered. Guess this is a question for one of the many attorney's here. Greg

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11-19-2007, 12:50 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellGreg, Maybe Peter Chao will weigh in on this. I don't know why Dan and others equate this with cleaning up the hobby. What's wrong with taking advantage of your expertise to fill a hobby niche and make money.

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11-19-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: barrysloateGreg- that's actually a very fair point, as I feel very comfortable with my grading service of choice, SGC, and believe they get it right with tremendous frequency. But let me take it a step further. It seems to me that given proper training, the right diagnostic tools, and a thorough approach to examining a card, it should be possible to get it right with near 100% certainty. To use a cliche, if they can land a man on the moon, they can authenticate a baseball card. I think the real problem is that graders are sloppy. They have too much work, they don't spend enough time looking at each card, and it's quite possible they haven't received the proper training. The knowledge is out there, and each of the grading services has the ability to get it down so precisely that we should never have to be concerned that a bad card gets holdered. Maybe we would have to pay a little more, but in fact we do. If I submit a T206 common, I pay $8-10. If I submit a 10K card, I pay $100. For that $100, I expect every diagnostic tool known to man to be implemented. If they approached the issue with greater urgency, we wouldn't need to look outside the grading service for additional help. It's in their power to do a much better job and get it right.

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11-19-2007, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Sean Cthat this is actually be considered a viable business idea, or that there are that many altered cards in slabs that it might actually be successful. Also, from the locked post, Jim revealed more of himself than I think he ever intended: =========================================== JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: www.AlteredCards.com November 18 2007, 9:32 AM Rick, Just because Kevin is uncomfortable and lets say SGC or PSA grades it doesn't mean card is altered. Dealer will resell or put in auction where likely many altered cards reside. If I pay Kevin, why should anyone else benefit from his opinion? =========================================== With that statement, Jim's "cleaning up the hobby" crusade goes right out the window, and he is revealed as the petty, selfish collector many have accused him of being over the years.

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11-19-2007, 01:04 PM

Posted By: G. Mainesunlike the rest of us.

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11-19-2007, 01:08 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellSean, Boy you are an ass. I tried to do a number of things and you were nowhere to be seen. Now I need to buy cards and I want a second opinion. For the fifth time so even you can understand, no dealer will sell me a card if they thought it was going to end up on a list.

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11-19-2007, 01:12 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellStay tuned next week for Kevin's website launch. Will have endorsements from Rob Lifson, Mike Baker, Rich Mueller among others.

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11-19-2007, 01:14 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, you have said many times that you won't work with dealers/auction houses that are unwilling to help clean up the hobby so if a dealer won't sell you a card for fear it may end up on a list then aren't they impeding the effort at cleaning up the hobby?

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11-19-2007, 01:15 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackWhile one can identify obvious or certain categories of problems and give a quick opinion (ala PSA/DNA Quick Opinion) about trimming, authenticity and such (Which in and of itself can be considered a useful service), you can't adequately examine a card without removing the card from the holder. Giving a final seal of approval to a card that hasn't been examined raw is dubious. You can't see everything when it's holdered only in part because, whether glass or plastic, holders distort light. Even if the holder causes no distortion, you won't know this until the card is removed.

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11-19-2007, 01:18 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, You are misquoting me--those are not my stated reasons for not buying from certain auction houses.

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11-19-2007, 01:19 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthBarry, I see SGC as the more conscientious grader. They can be this way because they do not do the volume that PSA is doing which, sadly, "justifies" PSA's not having to do as good a job. PSA is inconsistent at best. Is that due to improper training? Too many different graders? Not enough graders for the volume? They reject stuff they shouldn't and grade stuff they shouldn't too frequently. I am not sure if paying more for a card is even the answer. If a submitter is sending in an altered card he is not going to pay $100 to be scrutinized. It is going to be submitted at a level where that submitter thinks he can get it through which would be at a lower tier of service where the more inexperienced graders are delegated. So the grading service is only as good as it's weakest link. PSA has tiers but that is easy enough to work around and most do it, even if it is merely to save money. Greg

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11-19-2007, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, If you are looking to purchase a card from a dealer with the stipulation that Kevin deems it unaltered, do you agree on a price before or after Kevin deems it un-altered? It sounds to me like an arbitrage situation? Since you have already stated a card would be more valuable with Kevin's impramatur would you not be adding value to any purchase you make immediately? Or would you be willing to pay the dealer more for said card? I am not trying to pile on just trying understand how this is fair to anyone but you and Kevin. CB

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11-19-2007, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, I wasn't really quoting you, but this is the impression I have gotten from statements you have made. This hobby is not going to get cleaned up unless people share information with one another about altered cards. So far from what I have seen nobody is willing to step up to the plate and show which cards they know to be problem cards. There can only be one reason for this secretiveness....They don't care if this problem gets circulated to the next guy because they probably have a lot of money in the card.

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11-19-2007, 01:46 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share. Charlie, You are not piling on--it is a very interesting thread except for Sean who wants to make it a personal attack against me. I would agree on a price before. These guys are my friends Charlie. Steve Novella does tons of things for me. Buy cards for me, sells all my dupes on ebay for no charge, submits to psa on my behalf, comes to me with deals etc. He would be offended to suggest he should take a higher price for something he believes is legit anyway.. I hope that as a reputable dealer you would have the same standards.

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11-19-2007, 01:59 PM

Posted By: Sean Cyou really must have a selective memory. If you search these boards, you will see that I was one of the early volunteers help out on your "clean up the hobby" crusade, but backed out after you posted a few of your personal social views. As for your second comment, you are only proving my point: you are more concerned about advancing your collection than you are about cleaning up the hobby. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be made clear. ========================================= JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 18 2007, 4:08 PM Sean, Boy you are an ass. I tried to do a number of things and you were nowhere to be seen. Now I need to buy cards and I want a second opinion. For the fifth time so even you can understand, no dealer will sell me a card if they thought it was going to end up on a list. ==========================================

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11-19-2007, 02:05 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellFor the sixth time.....boy are you thick.

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11-19-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: BrianI am glad you are against personal attacks Jim.

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11-19-2007, 02:28 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, will you be sending any of the cards you currently own to Kevin or will it only be new cards you are looking at buying? If a card comes back as "altered" what will you do with that card?

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11-19-2007, 02:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, If I buy an expensive card from a dealer I will send it to Kevin. As I have said numerous times on this board I am not sending any cards I own in. If Kevin is not comfortable with the card I will return it to the dealer.

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11-19-2007, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Bob PomillaDan's question refered to cards that Kevin would deem "altered", not ones that he was "not comfortable with".

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11-19-2007, 02:55 PM

Posted By: pasExpecting Kevin to "out" cards is misguided in my opinion. If anyone really wants to bring about change, try pressuring PSA to make transparent who submitted a card. It would not work prospectively, as people would just change their submitting habits, but wouldn't it be interesting to know for the millions of cards already graded?

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11-19-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Stay tuned next week for Kevin's website launch. Will have endorsements from Rob Lifson, Mike Baker, Rich Mueller among others." I want to specifically see Mike Baker and Rob Lifson endorse/agree with the following paragraph from the Website: "In the future you will have the opportunity to send in your high valued graded sportscards for an in-depth examination by, who many consider, the top expert in the field. Cards that pass will have a small "verified unaltered" tamper-evident hologram sticker placed on the back of the graded holder. This will hopefully add greater value to a card and an added security level when selling it." If Rob and Mike say that Kevin is more knowlegable then they are, Kevin will get some business from me.

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11-19-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBob, I have no idea what language Kevin will use but what he tells me I will tell the dealer.

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11-19-2007, 03:01 PM

Posted By: SteveFWIW the coin industry is doing something similar. For a fee a person can send in a coin (already graded) and the syndicate (that is what they are calling it) of experienced dealers will attach a stamp of approval on the coin. It is more for hi end coins for the grade then alterations though. I for one would have no use for such a service yet at the same time understand how a collector like Jim may want to use one. Kevin is a friend of mine and I would trust his judgement if I needed such a service though. I personnaly think it is overlapping a service we already have with the grading co's. I should have prefaced my post with "this is just my opinion' lest I be chastised for stating fact when I am only stating opinion. Steve

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11-19-2007, 03:04 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, You know that will not be the case so its silly to mention it. I think it is significant though that the most respected auction house in the hobby and the leading grader are endorsing Kevin. Certainly not surprised that Rob would take a stand like this.

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11-19-2007, 03:06 PM

Posted By: WesleyDoes Rob even know Kevin? I doubt Rob is going to reject consignments based on Kevin's opinion. That would be suicide for REA.

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11-19-2007, 03:13 PM

Posted By: LarryIF PSA & SGC BOTH SAY a card is ungradeable, I have more faith in BOTH than either one alone, even if Kevin gives his opinion, no offense to Kevin. Jim Crandall wants to protect himself by not putting any more money into expensive cards without some help, no problem, that makes sense, Kevin obviously has doctoring skills to share. Mr. Crandall fails to see one very important aspect, this is NOT cleaning up the hobby if that was his real goal, this is just protecting his future endeavors. This is OK but is just that, it is an act to help him have eyes that he feels are better than SGC or PSA have. The really ironic thing is the quantity of bad cards that Jim must have( based on 28,000 psa cards bought over 15 years or so) just based on percentages should be the first to be examined if he is concerned about altering, that would be a real cleanup. Jim, we all know you do not want this because it will devalue your collection and you want your family to keep your collection for posterity anyway. PSA should be partially responsible if Kevin expertise found that PSA is wrong and can substantiate this with documentation. This will change things for the better, enforcement with proof. Otherwise, Jim, use Kevin and most of us will rely on SGC and PSA, the two companies similar findings will stand for more combined that any individual or company, or if you like raw cards, believe in your own judgement. If SGC and PSA BOTH say it is no good, that is the best insurance combo you can get, in my humble opinion.

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11-19-2007, 03:19 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLarry, You are either incredibly uninformed or want to discredit Kevin and/or me--either way it is a very low thing to do and you should be ashamed of yourself. You have never seen one card I own--most of my cards were raw cards I sent in myself but you could care less about the actual facts. Yes I care about the hobby--do you??--apparently not throwing around such lies. I also in the future want to buy cards I am sure are untampered with--sorry you cannot get that through your thick skull.

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11-19-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Tom NievesJim, Are you aware that the person that you think is the 'top expert in the field' doesn't know how (and doesn't even think it's possible) to stretch a card? That says it all, my friend. Stretching is one of the easiest and most common processes involved in card alteration. Tom

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11-19-2007, 03:28 PM

Posted By: pasWhether or not Jim sends his cards to Kevin is a non issue in my opinion. The real issue, if you think there is one, is that there are a handful or more of people who are very very good at doctoring cards and they have made a great deal of money getting these cards past the grading services for many years and continue to do so, particularly PSA who grades far more cards than SGC. Since PSA does not tell you on a cert check who submitted a card, the collector has no way to know if he is buying these cards or not. Ebay, auctions, every other channel you might buy from are full of these cards. It's just a fact of life. I don't see it changing much, frankly, and I am just as guilty as anyone else of wishful thinking (i.e., MY cards aren't bad).

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11-19-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Not just my opinion but the opinion of most informed people in the hobby--not aware of the stretching argument

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11-19-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm missing something here. Do you mean to say that if Rob auctions a graded card, the winning bidder shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it is altered, Rob will then give the buyer a full refund? Then what does he tell his consignor? I don't get this.

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11-19-2007, 03:57 PM

Posted By: pasNo way Rob is going to do that in my opinion.

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11-19-2007, 03:58 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI have to laugh at all the opinions that seem to attack Jim or Kevin. It seems they have a business venture they are willing to try and feel it will work. If you don't like it, so be it, you obviously won't use it. But if his service makes you more comfartable about making a big purchase than you will more than likely use him. They will sink or fail on their own merit no skin off your back if you don't use them. Otherwise it certainly will not affect you. Lee

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11-19-2007, 03:59 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDo you know how many consignments an auction house would lose under those circumstances? Why would a consignor agree to that? Again, I may be misunderstanding this.

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11-19-2007, 04:04 PM

Posted By: JimB"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share." Jim, If none of your 50,000 graded cards have any problem, then: 1) What makes you think that everybody else's graded cards are altered and that the grading companies have done such a poor job of identifying altered cards? 2) Why do you think an additional service on top of what the grading companies already do is either necessary or will provide something not already covered? Wouldn't this just be redundant and problematic? If they have been correct 50,000 out of 50,000 times with your collection, then it seems that everything must be in working order. JimB

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11-19-2007, 04:05 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Come on--you are smarter than that--just because Rob gives Kevin an endorsement does not mean there is a return privledge. Lee, Thats one reason I like your brother and Scott's board--you avoid the lunatics.

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11-19-2007, 04:09 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJimB, I didn't know you were on LTS! Congratulations! Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be. Jim

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11-19-2007, 04:09 PM

Posted By: pasJim C are you suggesting there are lunatics on this Board? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-19-2007, 04:12 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, See post 64.

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11-19-2007, 04:14 PM

Posted By: JimB"To my knowledge I don't have any problem cards so I have nothing to share." “Did not say I did not have any problem cards--just have no idea which they may be.” Isn't that what Kevin is here for? Cleaning the hobby starts at home, right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> JimB

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11-19-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellYou know my stance on that. Do you like LTS? Did you vote for or against Kevin coming back on?

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11-19-2007, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI'd just like to say I have no problem with Jim C or Kevin and whatever venture they go into I hope is successful. I guess I assumed all this time that both of them were concerned with cleaning up the hobby and getting altered cards out of slabs. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

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11-19-2007, 04:21 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I'm trying to understand what the endorsement means. Can you endorse somebody when you are not prepared to go by his decision? I think Kevin is a good guy and seems to know his stuff, and I would endorse his skills too. But if a buyer tries to return an SGC graded card to me because Kevin doesn't like it, guess what- he can't.

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11-19-2007, 04:22 PM

Posted By: pasBarry sure why not. I endorse Barack Obama but I would never vote for him. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Let's see what Rob says or doesn't say, I guess.

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11-19-2007, 04:24 PM

Posted By: pasJim, if he told you he would have to kill you, you know that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-19-2007, 04:24 PM

Posted By: Tom NievesAlso, Jim, I wouldn't be so sure about Larry never having seen any of the cards in your collection. From what I understand, he has a very close relationship with a couple of guys that have sold thousands of cards to you. Tom

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11-19-2007, 04:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJust a show of hands please: How many people would like the grading services do such a good job that the process of authenticating would begin and end right there? And how many believe that it is possible for the graders to improve both their skills and their track record?

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11-19-2007, 04:26 PM

Posted By: 1880nonsportscomfartable is a gas...... edited to add it's in Lee's 6:58 post <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-19-2007, 04:35 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI think Kevin is basically starting a service that could conceivably be used by those looking to buy expensive graded cards and just want an assurance that the cards are unaltered. I'm not sure what the problem is. If I saw an expensive card for auction that had Kevin's seal of approval it would probably make me feel better and might impact my bidding. Or it might not. But it might. I don't see that Kevin's business venture has much to lose and perhaps something to gain. As for the "endorsements" that he is gaining, that should give us some additional comfort with Kevin. Of course, the endorsements could just be a marketing ploy by the endorsers. Finally, Jim, while you think there are no lunatics on Jay's board, you are aware that his partner on the board dresses up roosters in razor-sharp spurs and lets them tear each other to shreds while he roots them on? In most dictionaries, that is the definition of lunacy.

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11-19-2007, 04:37 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, Forget about me--look at all Kevin has done to advance the knowledge on card alterations. Isn't he entitled to make money--and aren't I entitled to have an extra pair of eyes look at cards I buy? Tom, Only person who could possibly meet that criteria is Steve Novella and I trust him. I refuse to believe someone like Larry could have a close relationship with Steve.

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11-19-2007, 04:38 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBarry, of course we all think the graders can improve their skills and their track records; however, due to PSA's business practices we all know that such a thing will never happen there -- thus the potential need for a low volume, high end grader like Kevin (at least to review PSA cards; I actually have nearly total comfort with SGC's product).

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11-19-2007, 04:38 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJeff, Fair points all around. I was referring to just the posts.

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11-19-2007, 04:46 PM

Posted By: pasMarketing ploy? Doesn't sound like REA's style.

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11-19-2007, 04:49 PM

Posted By: LarryJim- Must have struck a nerve that is like a root canal....The truth is that you yourself said 5-10% of cards may be tainted, just do the math..I am not saying you did serious altering and maybe your cards are all great, so why are you afraid to have your cards checked out by kevin just to see one way or another, then he could help PSA and that was your purpose, "to help the industry". I think you are way out of line, I was extremely polite and if I am wrong, then say it nicely, you come across to many as someone who thinks that your collection is pristine while everyonme else has a problem, I do not see anywhere in my writing that puts you in a bad light, be careful not to protest so strongly, it is better to say, I just rather not. I am not someone who lacks knowledge but I certainly do not come across as someone who thinks the grading services now need a new endorsement verification system. Steve Novella bought his R316 Ruth PSA 6 from me, I sell many people and never try to put you down. Rob Lifson and I grew up together, we know each other very well, he will testify that I am very knowledgeble, and also care about being fair. I apologize for making you seem silly in your militant response. I just think kevin can help you and you can see for yourself that the problem is not worth the time to get bent over this.

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11-19-2007, 05:06 PM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanIn a way, isn't PSA already providing a service for high end cards? Sure, you get two day service for 55 bucks, but this is only for cards that are worth $1000-$2499. Any card from $2500-$10K has to go at the $85 level. In addition to the quicker service, one would assume (Oh-Oh) that these higher end cards would be scrutinized more than the VG3 commons. I am being naive about this? Rick

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11-19-2007, 05:11 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLarry, You were very rude. If you want to apologize fine. If not I could care less who you grew up with--go harass someone else.

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11-19-2007, 05:14 PM

Posted By: LarryJim- I just read further down that you feel I am putting down Kevin, totally untrue...Kevin has extremely high level of knowledge and usefulness for the industry, you were just totally out of line and speculative for whatever reason. I will not put you down Jim, I treat people with respect and with my 37 years of knowledge in the industry, old school and new school baseball cards, I am very appreciative and respectful of the many years it must have taken you to build such an esteemed collection. As far as having a thick skull, I am lucky it is thicker than thinner, it helps to protect my brain and that is quite useful. Have a nice holiday with your family and one day maybe you will realize that I am not trying to belittle you. I was not rude and certainly did not intend to be rude so if you feel that way, I am humble enough to apologize. Common sense still reaffirms that you are better off gaining momentum in helping the industry as you so avidly try to when you practice what you preach, and there is no need to become arrogant.

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11-19-2007, 05:14 PM

Posted By: Tom NievesJim, No, not Steve. I was referring to a couple of guys from Long Island. Tom

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11-19-2007, 05:21 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Only one guy on Long Island I bought a lot of cards from unless you are referring to Dave but I thought he was a NYC guy. Never bought a graded card from Gary but did buy a lot of ungraded cards from him--not one card he sold me ever was rejected. If he did turn into a card Doctor it was not during this period.

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11-19-2007, 05:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLarry, Okay--maybe I overreacted--water under the bridge.

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11-19-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: LarryJim- I accept your response and I do not want to make you feel defensive. This is a great hobby and the only thing I really want to express is that if TWO major grading services reject a card, in or out of holder, that is the best way to insure yourself, and if Kevin can help you, by all means it is a plus. This little exchange of negativity should never be done again. Life is too short, I lost my father this year and that is important, not the b....s....we sometimes get wrapped up in. My father always told me to appreciate all people for their goodness and not to create waves.

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11-19-2007, 05:29 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJimB, Well anytime Jim that I don't like one of your questions I know how to silence you--mention that you belong to the ultra-secretive, elite card collectors society called LTS--apparrantly so elite that even Kevin's application was rejected--whew--whaddaya gotta do to get in this elite organization if they won't let in a guy who has done so much to advance the hobby. I wonder if Rob Lifson applied if they would let him in? Or Keith Olberman? Hmmm.

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11-19-2007, 05:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLarry--I agree. My condolences.

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11-19-2007, 05:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- on what basis does LTS accept or reject people? Isn't it just a chatboard? The whole concept is goofy.

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11-19-2007, 05:37 PM

Posted By: Frank Evanov"Never bought a graded card from Gary but did buy a lot of ungraded cards from him--not one card he sold me ever was rejected. If he did turn into a card Doctor it was not during this period." Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings Jim, but Gary was a card doctor from day 1. He also sold me several raw cards. Some got graded.....the ones that were rejected by PSA, he sent in again and they were eventually slabbed. I have since gotten rid of all the cards I bought from him. I advise you to do the same. Frank

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11-19-2007, 05:38 PM

Posted By: SteveJim You know all the answers to your questions regarding LTS. Why bring them up? kevin left on his own, you were once a member. So surely you know how one gets in. Steve

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11-19-2007, 05:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellFrank, Disagree--in fact Dave Forman swore to me Gary never Doctored cards during this period--we are talking late 80s-early 90s here. Barry, First of all you need to show you have a net worth of at least $1 million. Also going to the right school is very important--preferably Harvard or Yale--I know that is how Marc Schoenen got in who posts here. However Marc is now out I understand as they were not pleased he did not go into consulting or investment banking. Frank is a member--they let him in even though being a dentist is not what they usually prefer--it was suspected that he gave a payoff to the president(aka supreme leader)to get in although this has never been proven. After he got to the top of the PSA Set Registry in 1957 Topps they let him stay. They threw me out because I didn't get to 100 graded sets fast enough and I was bringing down the organization. Perhaps they will reconsider and let Kevin in if he is a smashing success in his new venture--if not, his chances do not appear strong.

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11-19-2007, 05:49 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxJim, You're an idiot. You can't leave well enough alone. LTS isn't secretive at all for those that don't know about it. We just try to keep it friendly there so we don't let just anyone in. Jim can't help make up crap about LTS because he's been given the boot twice because he can't keep it freindly. Anyone who frequents N54 can clearly see how he rubs people the wrong way. LTS is just a sportscard chat forum. We don't claim to be anything else and new members are always joining. Tom Papa

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11-19-2007, 05:50 PM

Posted By: Tom NievesGary and Gerry

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11-19-2007, 05:52 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxWhat the hell are you talking about? I doubt half the memebers have that networth. You'r e a liar too I see. But I have known that a long time.

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11-19-2007, 05:53 PM

Posted By: SteveLmao barry i am a member there. I'm broke (not really) and according to JK I am an illiterate. Maybe I am the token broke dope? Possibly. Steve Edited to add: While Frank can speak for himself (eloquently too for that matter) he is no dentist. I believe he is a gastro med dr. I got in and I didn't go to Yale. I went to school of hard knocks. lol

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11-19-2007, 05:54 PM

Posted By: pasTom and Steve, Jim is just joking around with you guys about the net worth thing, can't you see that?

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11-19-2007, 05:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThis thread is starting to get a little cranky, and Leon is off somewhere gorging himself on chili. Let's all try to be a little civil.

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11-19-2007, 05:55 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Have a sense of humor....geez-- I thought I only got kicked out once. I resigned the other time. You really are troubled by my jokes?

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11-19-2007, 05:57 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, These LTS guys are serious--you never know--they may think people believe that you need a Harvard or Yale degree.

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11-19-2007, 05:58 PM

Posted By: StevePeter of course I see it. lol Steve

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11-19-2007, 05:58 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI've been reading about us being a "secret society" and anything else you feel like throwing around for almost 4 years now. None of what you say is true and many (like Barry) took some of what you say as truth. If I made jokes about you to people that didn't know better you wouldn't like it. Keep up your end of our deal please.

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11-19-2007, 05:59 PM

Posted By: Sean CWould it count if you went to visit some friends at Harvard, or would cut through the yard on the way to visit your girlfriend? JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 18 2007, 8:47 PM Frank, Disagree--in fact Dave Forman swore to me Gary never Doctored cards during this period--we are talking late 80s-early 90s here. Barry, First of all you need to show you have a net worth of at least $1 million. Also going to the right school is very important--preferably Harvard or Yale--I know that is how Marc Schoenen got in who posts here. However Marc is now out I understand as they were not pleased he did not go into consulting or investment banking. Frank is a member--they let him in even though being a dentist is not what they usually prefer--it was suspected that he gave a payoff to the president(aka supreme leader)to get in although this has never been proven. After he got to the top of the PSA Set Registry in 1957 Topps they let him stay. They threw me out because I didn't get to 100 graded sets fast enough and I was bringing down the organization. Perhaps they will reconsider and let Kevin in if he is a smashing success in his new venture--if not, his chances do not appear strong.

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11-19-2007, 06:00 PM

Posted By: SteveJim Did you quit the first time or second time? if you quit the second time you too can get a vote. lol ok ok Barry is right this thread has now gone beyond what it was intended for. Steve

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11-19-2007, 06:05 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxHe quit the second time (technically) because I told him the boot was right around the corner. I told him to change or else. So he quit. I know one thing. I just had back surgery so I'll be laid-up next to my laptop for the next 4 weeks with nothing else to do but argue with Jim if thats what he wants. Time to address the lies and the jokes.

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11-19-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellSteve, I quit the first time--then I rejoined. Then Tom threw me out but I thought we were friends again. Looks like I could never get a vote--heck if Kevin can't get in I am far more confrontational than him. I will have to consult with Peter on this--whoops--he is out too. Its not clear to me though if it is a secret who is a member--i don't think so which is why I mentioned names.

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11-19-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: JohnI rarely post on these boards- though I have lurked for years. I remember jim and his ‘cleaning up the hobby’ crusade of several years ago on the PSA boards. The issue I have w/discussions like this is that a lot of accusations are hurled. Examples are- I know some guy who is one of the top card doctors in ohio (or any other state)- oh yeah, I know that guy too, but no one will disclose THAT guy’s name; oh yeah, I know there a lot of altered cards in grading co. A, B, C, and/or D holders- oh yeah, I know that too b/c I heard it from some guy who heard it from another guy at a show. These stories all make for interesting reading (or more time to waste on message boards?), but no one ever seems to provide CONCRETE PROOF- e.g., show me a card RAW, then show me alterations made to that card, then show me that SAME card GRADED. I also find it interesting that people who say they want to ‘clean up the hobby’ and abhor personal attacks have no qualms engaging in personal attacks themselves. Even more interesting is that many collectors of high $ items say they want to ‘clean up the hobby’ yet when it comes to having THEIR cards examined, they refuse. The same happens when it comes to crossing their cards over from say psa to sgc. Why? I also think it is somewhat selfish and elitist to support a service yet make comments like ‘well, if I pay joebob, why should ANYONE ELSE benefit from it?’ If someone TRULY wants to help ‘clean up the hobby’, they should freely and openly share KNOWN alterations. People often point out questionable auctions on ebay/other sites, so why NOT point out known altered cards? W/that said, if someone wants to pay someone to ‘sign off’ on cards before buying them, that’s their choice. If someone wants to turn this into a venture, good for them. Btw jim, if you do not know if any of your 50,000 cards have been altered, are you going to have Kevin examine all 50,000? What are you going to do with your cards if Kevin deems them to be altered- consign them to an auction house, disclose that Kevin found them to be altered? Auction them on ebay and disclose that Kevin found them to be altered? Sell them without disclosing that Kevin found them to be altered? if someone truly believes that another person is one of the hobby's 'experts', why not put your $ where your mouth is? if i had doubts about cards in my collection, i would (and have) take every step i could to have an 'expert' examine them to determine if they were altered.

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11-19-2007, 06:08 PM

Posted By: JohnGWhile I have rarely posted here I do follow along from time to time and have noticed something lately. Seems you're a bit jealous or maybe you have some sort of sickness or obsession with the LTS people? Were you not up to snuff according to your guidelines?

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11-19-2007, 06:09 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn. You obviously have read very little of what I said--study up and if you have specific questions I will be glad to help.

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11-19-2007, 06:12 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohnG, Correct--I was not up to snuff. Actually pretty good friends with as many as 50 LTS members--would not call it an obsession--have not brought it up much.

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11-19-2007, 06:14 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, My best wishes for a speedy recovery. But I will bet you a lot of money that I quit on my own the first time and after you asked me back then you threw me off.

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11-19-2007, 06:16 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovJim, please get your facts straight: Frank is a member--they let him in even though being a dentist is not what they usually prefer I am a Board Certified Internist and Gastroenterologist. Disagree--in fact Dave Forman swore to me Gary never Doctored cards during this period--we are talking late 80s-early 90s here The cards I purchased from Gary were in the early 90's and were indeed altered. I was his family physician at the time. Of course you choose to believe his partner that no wrong doing was going on [?]. Kind of like taking Bonnie's word for Clyde. Frank

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11-19-2007, 06:17 PM

Posted By: Brian<<pretty good friends with as many as 50 LTS members>> Was that voted on?

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11-19-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: JohnI’ve read your words for years jim- we used to engage in polite discussions back on the CU boards years ago. I don’t live on message boards though (life happens and message boards are but a miniscule portion of mine), so perhaps you’ve already answered these questions. If so, feel free to point me to your posts/prior answers. If not, please answer them- and anything else you think people who are interested in 'cleaning up the hobby' should know. 1. has Kevin looked @ any of your cards currently in your possession? if so, were any deemed altered? If not, will Kevin look @ any of your cards currently in your possession? If not, why not? If Kevin finds any cards currently in your possession are altered, what will you do w/them? Take them off the market/destroy them? Let collectors know the cards are altered? Auction them off w/o disclosing kevin’s findings? 2. why didn’t you ever cross your 50k psa slabs over to sgc as you mentioned you’d do several times several years ago? 3. if you trust mike baker as much as you say, why not have gai cross your cards over? 4. if you ‘don’t know’ if any cards in your possession have been altered, why not have them checked out? Maybe you can answer this question- or someone else can. Like I said, I don’t live on message boards, so may have missed the answer. What are kevin’s specific qualifications that make him more of an expert than bvg, gai, psa, sgc or any of the other commonly named ‘experts’?

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11-19-2007, 06:20 PM

Posted By: pas"I will have to consult with Peter on this--whoops--he is out too.' Yup, tis true.

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11-19-2007, 06:21 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxTo keep my promise I will fill JohnG in on that last lie. You getting the boot has nothing to do with being up to snuff. We were friends as you have said many times before. You got the boot for constabtly starting crap with people. Like you did tonight by picking on LTS yet again. PS - I didn't "vote" on Kevin because there wasn't a "vote". The negative reaction was probably a bit more than the positive reaction. That was probably because Kevin is associated with threads like the content in this one. Most hobbyist don't like this kind of crap.

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11-19-2007, 06:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBrian, They are the only ones allowed to talk to me--just kidding Tom. Frank, Sorry--don't know why I thought you were a dentist--sorry. For those of you who don't know Frank he is one of the great guys in the hobby and has actually given me cards(not sold) worth in the hundreds of dollars.

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11-19-2007, 06:24 PM

Posted By: SteveYou mean I could have passed myself off as a millionaire that went to Yale? yes that is right. I went to Yale and am worth millions. Tom shhhhhh Steve

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11-19-2007, 06:24 PM

Posted By: pasI echo what was just said about DR. Frank -- a class act all the way. And I am glad Jim and Larry seem to have patched it up as Larry is a fine gentleman as well in my experience, and extremely knowledgeable about the hobby.

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11-19-2007, 06:28 PM

Posted By: JohnThe LTS comments make it sound like the Illuminati. Gotta give you guys credit though- it made me look @ the site again..hadn't been there in ages. leave boards for a few months/years, come back, and it's like deja vu.

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11-19-2007, 06:29 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn, I have answered all these questions time and again--if you really want to know give me your e-mail address. Tom, Relax--smile--we both know I could never fit in at LTS--its ok. People are allowed to joke around on this message board. And in response to the earlier comment Tom will confirm that visiting Harvard or Yale doesn't count--you have to go there.

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11-19-2007, 06:30 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI hear ya John. Frankly, I kinda hate all forums these days. But the pain killers have me on edge tonight so what the hell <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-19-2007, 06:31 PM

Posted By: JohnI must’ve missed your answers jim. Like I said, life’s intervened over the past few years and my message board time’s vastly decreased. My email (I don’t know if Net54 has pms?) is thinkindependent@aol.com

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11-19-2007, 06:33 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI am relaxing Jim. I am thoroughly enjoying this. Now jump back on your pedestal and keep talking down to us small people. Wait ....I'll kneel down so you can stand on my back to get up there big guy. Have at it!!!

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11-19-2007, 06:33 PM

Posted By: Johni hear you bosox...i remember you from the CU boards years ago also. i'm actually glad LTS was brought up- it's an informative site and i've now got it bookmarked. heck, i may even be so bold as to apply now (life intervened when it was started and it fell off my radar like most message boards). GL w/your recovery bosox.

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11-19-2007, 06:33 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWhere is this LTS message board at? Can you read it without being a member?

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11-19-2007, 06:35 PM

Posted By: LarryPeter, Thank You for your kind words, I echo your diligence, passion and knowledge within the hobby. There should be no one that should force their opinion down anyone's throat. Nor should anyone think they are totally right. The truth is, we are all just here for a short time on this earth and actions speak louder than words. I try to act respectful and courteous to everyone no matter how wealthy or not they are, whether I agree with them or not. I do not feel that anyone should be regarded as a savior or experts in the hobby when everybody makes mistakes, we are human. To all those that agree with me or not, I sincerely wish everyone a happy thanksgiving and enjoy the time with your families on this special day, a day when friends and family should be thankful of their blessings.

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11-19-2007, 06:37 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxwww.letstalksportscards.com Sorry. You can't read it without being a member but anyone can apply. Just follow the instructions. There is probably a waiting list to join. It's very popular despite what some say.

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11-19-2007, 06:40 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim: You actually mention LTS quite a lot over here on 54. And your comments about LTS have nothing whatsoever to do with the content of the thread you're posting in. For someone who routinely gets upset when your threads get hijacked, you sure do digress a lot yourself. You and I are friends, but I sure wish you'd stop bringing up LTS in your Net54 posts. I'm pretty sure nobody here cares. -Al

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11-19-2007, 06:41 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, You should be proud of starting LTS. Its blossomed into a large organization. I admire you for it. Best to your family and I wish you a speedy recovery. Dan, whew--thats a no-no. You must be a member to read it and members are not allowed to share what is said there with anyone under penalty of expulsion or even worse.

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11-19-2007, 06:42 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThanks Tom, I was just interested in reading it...not joining. Probably nothing I could add to it.

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11-19-2007, 06:44 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaUmmmm...seriously? You're not allowed to talk about LTS outside of LTS? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Sounds a lot like Fight Club!

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11-19-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxYes, sometimes we hang people. But usually we just throw sulfuric acid on them and just laugh and laugh. Geeez....

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11-19-2007, 06:47 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxThat's a good idea for a name change based on some of our threads. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-19-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl, Okay--if nobody cares I won't talk about it. I didn't know it was illegal to talk about it--after all it is part of the hobby. Just think its interesting that Kevin is not allowed in, three people get thrown out or quit before it happens, other noteworthy collectors resign and rejoin, others threaten to quit. Look at all the attention Jay gets when he leaves Net54. Its like a soap opera over there--you could make a tv miniseries about it. Lets get together after the holidays. Jim

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11-19-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: Tom Nieves.

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11-19-2007, 07:55 PM

Posted By: SteveIts like a soap opera over there Jim that is not true and you know it. Steve

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11-19-2007, 08:26 PM

Posted By: MWA third party authentication service to "validate" already graded cards requires more than a team of the hobby's top graders. It necessitates a financial guarantee to back its opinions. Just like in the coin business, an opinion, however well qualified, means very little to the majority of collectors, if it is not backed by solid cash offers. It has been estimated that such a guarantee would require an outlay of perhaps $5 million. Anyone can put a sticker on a graded card. Few can provide the expertise and then confidently back it with a financial guarantee.

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11-19-2007, 08:38 PM

Posted By: Larry<look at all Kevin has done to advance the knowledge on <card alterations yeah right.....lol....are any of his books on Amazon? How many books has he written and had published on the subject?

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11-19-2007, 08:42 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovMW makes a good point. A fourth party grader would require significant financial backing in view of liability exposure. Frank

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11-19-2007, 08:44 PM

Posted By: pasFurther to Michael's point, I am not sure I understand what Kevin's authentication means. Is it an affirmative statement of authenticity or merely a negative one that he can't, in the slab, detect any alteration?

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11-19-2007, 08:49 PM

Posted By: pasI continue to be skeptical, however expert Kevin is, of the value of a review of a card inside a slab. This may well detect some things that slipped through but not, in my perhaps non-expert view, many alterations that can only be detected by handling a card and having a clear view of the edges.

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11-19-2007, 09:28 PM

Posted By: JimBCrandall said, "Well anytime Jim that I don't like one of your questions I know how to silence you-" I'm sorry if I have not been living by my computer all day. I went out to a fundraising event this evening. Being away from my computer will definately silence me in an online discussion board. But Jim, you have not said anything worthy of a response. I see no point to discussing this with you any further. It is clear to me that when you get directly confronted with your hypocrisy, you just avoid the penetrating questions by attempting to divert attention. You make public, information you believe to be secret, soas to try to ruffle feathers. This is not the first time you have attempted to anger people by mentioning LTS. The big joke is on you because nobody cares. I am not interested in playing this type of game. It accomplishes nothing. JimB P.S. I will be away from my computer watching a movie for a few hours. I may not even check again until tomorrow.

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11-19-2007, 09:32 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthPeter, I posted the following on the prior thread that Leon locked. Like you I would like to hear Kevin's comments. Some random and unorganized thoughts... I'm not sure one can unequivocally rule out alterations, or the lack there of, with a card in a sealed plastic holder. Cards are examined by graders, either thoroughly or not, outside of protectos and certainly not in sealed holders which limit visibility at the very least. Kevin seems very knowledgeable on the subject of card alterations so he may very well be able to do a better job than the grading services are doing. As a side note, what motivates one to dabble in learning about altering cards as opposed to taking up tennis or Kung Fu? And to reply to Dan's post about showing cards valued at 5K or more that are altered...Cards are not considered altered by majority of the collectors or dealers once graded and sealed. But it is very common for dealers to break out cards to resubmit hoping for a bump in grade and in an instant, after relying on the flip at the top of the holder which assigns a grade, they end up with a card that will never grade again. This phenomena is very common. Greg

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11-20-2007, 03:21 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSteve, Obviously--I'm kidding--there are a couple of real sensitive people there--oh well, a few people thought it was funny including some of your LTSers. Even Tom had to chuckle about "The Fight Club" Jim, The last thing I am trying to do is anger people--I think its pretty funny. Nobody cares? Funny reactions for noone caring. My hypocrisy? About what. Other than saying for the fifteenth millionth time I am not resubmitting my cards to SGC or to Kevin, what would you like to ask me that is on your mind.

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11-20-2007, 03:29 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them. 1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered 2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through. 3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be? Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones?

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11-20-2007, 04:22 AM

Posted By: Sean CI'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them. 1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered 2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through. 3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be? Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones?

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11-20-2007, 04:40 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSean, You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss.

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11-20-2007, 04:49 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffJim, You're the best! Love, -Ryan

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11-20-2007, 05:36 AM

Posted By: pasFolks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab.

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11-20-2007, 05:39 AM

Posted By: Dave FWhile I agree this shouldn't turn into another bashing Jim thread, he isn't helping himself by throwing fuel on the fire with the 5 or 6 that are wanting exactly that. Why not just let sleeping dogs lie Jim?

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11-20-2007, 06:07 AM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI have to agree with Dave on that Peter. I'm only here for one reason. It isn't because I wanted to chime in on the merits of Kevin's service. It wasn't to bash Kevin either as I like the guy. It's because Jim continues to take any opportunity he can to twist the truth about LTS. Jim needs to get back on topic and lay off us, or we will certainly debate him on his allegations/poor jokes/rumors/whatever. As always, if he leaves it alone, the only place I can be found on N54 is on the Buy/Sell/Trade forum.

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11-20-2007, 06:19 AM

Posted By: pasHey Tom was not counting you among the Jim bashers, Jim brought up LTS so it was fair game. I just wish there could be less discussion of Jim's personal collection (we GET the charge of hypocrisy, let's move on) and more about the concept of reviewing cards inside a slab which to me is the crux of the discussion about whether Kevin adds value.

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11-20-2007, 06:19 AM

Posted By: Mark H.Kevin, pass me some of that popcorn.

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11-20-2007, 06:57 AM

Posted By: martindl Peter, you said "Folks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab." Plenty of people have discussed the merits and the concerns regarding Kevin or anyone else reviewing a card already in a slab. There is really nothing else to be said, other than already repeating a point already made. I see no problem with anyone availing themselves of someone else's expertise if they want that assurance for themselves. It would be a personal service akin to many other kinds of appraisers e.g. real estate, antiques, cars, etc. The main difference that I can see is that unlike other appraisers, this one would be unlicensed and thus their opinion would carry no real weight. Re. bashing Jim, after reading his repeated putdowns of others it does become quite tempting to want to bring him down to the level of the rest of us. Jim C. is a gadfly and seemingly quite happy to be so.

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11-20-2007, 07:29 AM

Posted By: pasMartin there are some regulars whose expertise I highly respect who have not commented on the utility of such a service, but in any event your point is well taken that this thread is certainly not the first discussion of Kevin and many have already weighed in. Then again, if redundancy were the standard we might have a lotless to talk about. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-20-2007, 08:30 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusHow much added value would a thumbs up from Kevin add to a card I am considering purchasing? Until I can get some sense of how effective such an examination would be with the card still in the slab, I don't think I can answer that. There are different kinds of alterations (trimming, rebuilding corners, adding color, etc.) and I suppose some are more easily detectable with the card in the slab than others. To me the effectiveness of Kevin's examination would be more to prove the negative than the positive -- if he gives it a thumbs down, then assuming I have confidence in his expertise (and I don't know Kevin but from what I read he seems a pretty knowledgable person), I would regard (much of) the value taken away from the card. Also, separate from what Kevin can and cannot do with the card still in the slab, I would also want to know when the card was graded and its provenance. If, for example, it had been recently done by SGC, then inasmuch as I am comfortable with their expertise, to me there is not much potential additional value out there that Kevin could add even under the best of circumstances (i.e., examining the card outside the slab). Same too goes with provenance. If the card went straight from an old time collector straight into a slab (e.g., Lionel Carter's cards), then the only issue to me is the grade, not the whether the card has been altered.

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11-20-2007, 08:45 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCorey, I have seen some T206's from Lionel Carter's collection that were trimmed and graded "A" by SGC. Trimming has been going on for a looooooonnnnnggg time.

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11-20-2007, 08:58 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusFair point. I think I need to be more specific in what I said. The types of cards from Carter's collection that I have no worries are altered are those he personally pulled from the packs, not ones he acquired from others. So yes, the T206s would not fall in this category and I too had heard some had been altered. But, say, his Topps and Bowmans that SGC slabbed, those I'm not worried about.

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11-20-2007, 09:06 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMartin, Name one instance where I have initiated something putting down others. I respond to others who attack me but why would I ever say anything to Sean if he didn't attack me first. Tom, How am I twisting the truth? Yes you don't have to graduate from Harvard or Yale to get into LTS--I admit it --I twisted it. Is LTS such an organization that you can't poke fun at it in jest? I think its funny Kevin cannot get back in--you don't-- fine. I think he thinks its funny too. You can rip me again if you want to Tom but just trying to create some fun. Speedy recovery.

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11-20-2007, 09:47 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn, Here are your answers: 1)Has Kevin looked at my cards--no. Will he--no. Thus rest of questions irrelevent 2)I never said I was going to cross my 25,000 PSA cards(not 50,000). I indicated I would seriously consider it if PSA went to half grades which they considered but never did. 3)This turned out to be a good decision--GAI cards are worth a lot less that PSA in the same grade. I have no reason today to consider switching--I like my PSA cards. 4)Why should I? There are hundreds of major collectors out there--I know of one that has had his cards checked. I am happy--all look great although there are probably some that are not.

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11-20-2007, 09:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- what was the verdict regarding your friend who had his cards checked? Were many problems found?

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11-20-2007, 10:13 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, He posts here from time to time and I do not feel comfortable disclosing what Kevin found. I will have to pass on that and let Kevin or him disclose that if they wish to.

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11-20-2007, 10:19 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWell if we don't know who it is, what difference would it make if you just gave us a brief synopsis? I don't need names.

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11-20-2007, 10:26 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI would be breaching a confidence and I really don't know all the facts--Kevin can comment if he thinks its appropriate.

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11-20-2007, 10:35 AM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxJim, I have no issues with the little jokes like Harvard or the networth thing. I have a problem with your comments saying we are secret society/elitist. LTS is no secret. And if we are elitist we have low standards (starting with myself). I have seen comments like this a few times on N54 from you. It's just not true. We let a lot of people on as long as they are relatively polite to others, and somebody can vouch for them as “a stand-up person” in the hobby). It’s not much different from an auction house asking for references before they let you bid. I have a problem with you saying we had a vote on Kevin, and the fact you would question JimB to that effect in public. Your accusation is false once again. No vote was taken. And if it were JimB isn't the guy to go after about that is he? The fact of the matter is you want to put a negative spin on LTS in public. People here don’t know us and they might actually believe your dribble. So, frankly, I just want to make sure people know the truth, and not just the world according to Jim. That’s all. If you insist on making jokes at our expense you can be sure we won’t have any issues making jokes at your expense. All in good fun, of course. After all, there’s nothing wrong with a few jokes is there? Be well my friend. Tom

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11-20-2007, 11:34 AM

Posted By: peter chaoTom, Would you have any problems with me saying that Net54 is going in the direction of an elitist/secret society? I get along fine with most people on this Board, but there are many pre-war collectors that are afraid to post on this Board because they realize some Board Members aren't that nice. Peter C.

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11-20-2007, 11:38 AM

Posted By: Dave FPeter... I'd have a problem with you saying this board is turning into an elitist/secret society...what are you basing that on?? And if there are people on this board that are "not verY nice"...by all means point them out to avoid more secrets!

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11-20-2007, 11:38 AM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxNot at all Peter.

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11-20-2007, 11:52 AM

Posted By: RobIn reference to the Lionel Carter slabs, isn't it also possible that the slabs could've been tampered with? If so, the card inside could be different than what the slab says is. Two scenarios I could see is 1) Taking out the original card and putting in a different one, whether its a fake or just lower grade 2) Tampering with the slip in the slab to make it read as a higher grade and/or changing the serial number, etc Just food for though i guess Rob <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-20-2007, 11:56 AM

Posted By: peter chaoDave F., You are one of the nice guys, so I wasn't referring to you. It just seems like some pre-war collectors I have spoken with and had e-mail contact with feel the same way I do. Some of the Board Members think of themselves as being on the cutting edge of the hobby and if your post isn't on the cutting edge it will be ignored or ridiculed. Tom seems to agree with me to some degree. Peter C.

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11-20-2007, 12:02 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI do agree Peter that a fair amount of the poster here can make others feel that way. But I certainly wouldn't put a huge number of the posters in that category. I think every forum has that issue to some degree. Hard to overcome that since all collectors are in a different place as to what and who they know in this hobby.

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11-20-2007, 12:03 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaRob, my guess is that some oldtime collector knowing Carter's penchant for minty cards trimmed up some of his T206 cards in order to pass them by Lionel and make a sale or a trade. This probably happened in the 1950s or 60s when Lionel was putting his T206 set together.

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11-20-2007, 12:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Only going by what Kevin told me--assumed he would know. I think secret society is funny--if I said elitist I am sure I meant it in jest--probably in regard to not letting Kevin back in. Actually reread everything I said--all was meant to be funny--still think you take it all too seriously and as you know I have quite a few buddies in LTS of which hope to again count you as one someday. Ready--smile Tom <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Never used to be high tech enough to do that.

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11-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: MartyI read about half of this thread so far. I have a couple of thoughts about posting certs of cards that may be bad. Should they post the cert #s that are good? This information is for the person who paid for it. Why should others benefit? I could see another level of "Club Members" that are charged a membership fee and they could be made aware of this information. On PSA's web site, you can look through cert #s around the one in question to see of there may have been others on the same invoice that were rejected. Is this good or bad? I do not believe that SGC offers this service, is this good or bad? You can not see who sent the cards in.

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11-20-2007, 01:03 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI am happy Jim. Those that know me in this hobby know that. I think your just upset that MW is spot on. SPOT ON. This venture you think is so great is a waste of time. It's a waste to even talk about. I actually thought you were smarter than to back something like this? But than again aren't you the genius that almost crossed 20,000 slabs from PSA to GAI? Genius!!! We should all follow you!!!

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11-20-2007, 01:54 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellTom, Why is MW spot on-???-noone is asking for a financial guarantee. I just want Kevin's opinion and I will be glad to sign a waiver or whatever is rtequired. Come on Tom--you are smarter than that. I think it was actually pretty smart not to use GAI--if thats what you mean--many thanks.

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11-20-2007, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Do you consider this thread a trainwreck? What percentage of threads that you start do you feel end up as trainwrecks? Anyway -- I hope that I never get pegged as one of those B-school elitists. The fact of the matter is that I applied to a whole bunch of business schools, and only a single one accepted me. I happily went, but I just reckon I'm a lucky guy, nothing more. And I never associate my collection, my friends, or my associations with having anything to do with net worth. If I ever become one of those guys, I do hope one of my true friends will shoot me.

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11-20-2007, 03:37 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxOnce again you read everything the way you want. You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.

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11-20-2007, 03:38 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxMarc, I miss you man. Shoot me a line. Let's catch-up.

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11-20-2007, 03:47 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellInability to comprehend a basic concept Tom? Read the words carefully three times out loud and you just might get it. Marc--do not know what you are getting at.

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11-20-2007, 04:04 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxBank roll him Jim if it's such a great idea. I get the concept. I'm just saying it's a dumb idea. I'm sure all of the "smart" collectors will be standing in line for a worthless fourth party opinion. Call me all of the names you want Jim. I love it.

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11-20-2007, 04:43 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellTom Papa--"You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.' Dav--"Inability to comprehends a basic concept Tom? Read the words three times out loud and you just might get it" TomPapa--"Call me all the names you want Jim. I love it. I think Tom must be reading his prior messages to me and thinking I sent them. This is hysterical.

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11-20-2007, 04:53 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThere's nothing wrong with asking for an educated second opinion on a graded card, but, as long as the card is held within the holder, there's a limit to what someone, anyone, can detect. It may be that some kinds of problems will be able to be identified while the card is in the holder, which is why it's fine to ask someone to look over your newly purchased graded cards. However, the idea that all graded cards are beholden to an examination where the cards never leave the holder is silly. The graders at SGC examine all the cards raw, which means they have a superior view of all of the cards. Again I'm sure problems can be identified while the card is in the holder, but it's not legitimately possible to say a card isn't altered that hasn't been examined raw. One of the basic rules of examining paintings or prints or photos or such is that you have to remove the object from any holder, because the holder obstructs view.

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11-20-2007, 05:07 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxSelectively cutting and pasting certain lines that don't tell the entire story on name calling won't mak your great venture any more lucrative. You can't side step the fact the idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service. I can't wait to see how much you pay Kevin yourself for this highly valued service. You used to say the same thing about how great GAI and your pals over there are. At the same time you said Orlando is an ass and PSA sucks. You never put your money where your mouth was than because you knew it was a bad business move. My prediction is that you won't put your money where your mouth is on this one either. The fact of the matter is you chat up the services your friends provide, but put your money where it adds the best value to your collection. LTS was great according to you until the day we dropped you. Than we became evil. Grow-up Jim. I have e-mails and posts for parts of 4 years from you trashing people and companies. Than you stroke them in public and kiss their ass when it benefits you. I have dozens of items like this Jim from you trying to manipulate me for outcomes you have wanted on LTS or even back on the CU Forums during the Orlando fights. I know you're manipulative. I don't care what you say here because I have lived Jim Crandall first hand and have lots of proof to that effect. You're self serving to say the least. People that don't know that haven't been in some of the inner circles to know how low you stoop to get things your way. You're one of the top 5 two faced people I have met in this hobby. The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here. That's cool. I have time to kill.

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11-20-2007, 05:13 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI agree David. Nothing wrong with it, but why would somebody pay for that? Why go to a grading company in the first place if you have no trust for the service? And if Kevin is "the trusted source in the hobby" (which he is not) why not have him start a grading company and just go straight to him? It's just common sense really. I wouldn't invest $10 in this idea. But that's me. I understand that others here may want something like this. I'm just waiting to hear who and how many cards they are sending in?

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11-20-2007, 05:18 PM

Posted By: Jimcrandell"The idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service" I will pay on expensive cards I buy for the service. I never said I expect anyone to pay. People can make their own decisions. "The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here." Tom--you have a huge ego--thats obvious--but the only time I ever think of you is when you jump on a message board and start blasting away. My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here.

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11-20-2007, 05:21 PM

Posted By: BrianJim, How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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11-20-2007, 05:22 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxBut you care what they think of you over here. I don't. I'm just here to jerk your chain because everything I have said about your manipulative ways is documented by you. And I have it.

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11-20-2007, 05:26 PM

Posted By: barrysloateOne of the top 5 two faced people: that equals ten people!

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11-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: RichardHow much is Kevin Saucier charging to look at a slab?

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11-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliBarry: I think it's actually only two and a half people. -Al

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11-20-2007, 05:30 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, if you have never let Kevin review your collection, and you don't plan on allowing him to do so, how can you so confidently support him as a hobby expert? I'm not saying otherwise. I am just wondering how you arrived at this conclusion.

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11-20-2007, 05:34 PM

Posted By: AnonymousAnother thought on this ill-conceived plan... If you see Kevin's value in so much as asking him to review cards you may purchase (at auction or for sale) how would you expect him to review the cards? For instance, let's say you are interested in a 1933 Goudey Sport King Ty Cobb in PSA 8 in a Mastro auction and you want him to review it prior to you bidding. HOw is he supposed to get access to it? I doubt that the auction house (or the consignor) would be very open to the idea of having him review it on the chance he may deem it altered. Access to these cards would seem to be a huge problem. Not unless you plan on employing a hidden camera or some other covert operation.

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11-20-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellI will take the high road again and let people draw their own conclusions about Papa. Tom--if you want to publish my private e-mails to you--that you encouraged me to send to you and not put on LTS go right ahead--it would be right in line with your character.

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11-20-2007, 05:36 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellKeith, This has all been said before--I have said on here many times that the plan is only workable when I buy directly from dealers.

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11-20-2007, 05:37 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxIf I wanted to hire anyone for a service like this it would be Moser. But it's still a dumb idea even with him.

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11-20-2007, 05:37 PM

Posted By: Elliot"My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here." My vote: Look in the mirror Jim.

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11-20-2007, 05:40 PM

Posted By: MarkI've offered my services before. I will, from time to time, and for little or no recompense, verify if Kevin is trimmed, altered or bleached in any way. I can detect if he has built-up corners, and I can determine if any part of him has, at any time, been erased. And I can do it all without removing him from his slab.

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11-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxEncouraged? I did everything but put you on my spam filter. I even have proof of that. And everyone appreciates you giving them permission to draw their own conclusions. I'm sure they were all upset because until you gave permission I'm sure they felt they HAD to listen to you.

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11-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: BrianTo my knowledge, Tom has never been kicked off of a message board. Jim, you have been kicked off of CU how many times? And at LTS at least once? You only started posting here after those two sites were taken away from you. I have seen this movie many times, it always stars Jim, and it always ends the same. At least you are the focus of the attention Jim, its good to be the star even if the star always dies....

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11-20-2007, 05:42 PM

Posted By: AnonymousOK, so you expect a dealer would allow Kevin to review the card? Maybe he could do it the first time since it could be done anonymously. But, once he is known it would seem to me that no dealer would give him access. What if he deemed a 5-figure card to be bogus? Even if he's right, what is the dealer supposed to do about that? What would you do about that as the prospective buyer? What would happen to the card? Would you just walk away and let it be another buyer's problem? I'm just curious because I see this going one of two ways... you guys begin a noble effort to shed light on bad cards and bad dealers for the benefit of the hobby (and other collectors)... or you simply use Kevin as an insurance plan to feel good about your own purchases and damn the next slob that comes along to buy the card should he deem it rotten and you walk away. In the words of Bill O'Reilly... What say you?

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11-20-2007, 05:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAl- I multiplied, you divided. You can go either way with it. It's also like being one of the five most foremost people. That's a lot of people, too. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-20-2007, 05:48 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, I read here from time to time, but all I want to know is why are you so obsessed with LTS? It really doesn't make any sense. It's almost like breaking up with a girlfriend in high school, and you just keep on talking about it 20 years later. The funny thing is, no one cares except you it seems. I think Kevin does indeed have some pretty sharp skills, and I've seen it first hand but the question remains if the demand is there? Kevin... start your business and see how it goes. Overhead can't be a problem, since there really isn't any. Stickers are cheap no? We all know about it, so lets see it. You'll never know unless you try right? I wish you the best of luck with success. Jim, the relentless cheerleading for Kevin's cause runs hollow unless you back it up with your own cards. That is a simply fact that everyone here seems to get except you. Ultimately some 200+ thread posts later, your original intent of helping Kevin out has turned into another wreck with you pissing all over everyone with things that are pointless to the original thread. the motivation of this continuing is thus unclear. What ultimately is your goal in this hobby? Why do you feel your opinion so significant? Kevin... why don't you post? Don't you realize these rants just trivialize what your trying to do? I completely understand your desire to create brand value for your services, but threads like these aren't helping your cause my friend. Best of luck Kevin, Jero

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11-20-2007, 05:56 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, another thought to mull over... So, here's a scenario... Kevin goes to Andy Madec and he allows him to review a card you are considering buying. Kevin reviews the card and gives it the green light. What then? Does Madec allow him to affix a new tamper evident seal to the slab? Does Kevin use a portable slabbing machine to slab the slab? It seems to me that he'd have to create some tangible, trackable seal of approval for the card so it retains his certification long after it changes hands again and again. Also, what does he do if the card is altered? Does Madec still allow him to seal or slab it with a rejected label? That would seem to be key for other collectors... hang the scarlet letter around the cards that need to be shunned by the backbone of the hobby.

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11-20-2007, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCon40 said it exactly...no dealer is going to allow their cards to be sent to Kevin after the first card gets rejected. If they have no problems selling SGC and PSA slabs why would they make it a little bit harder on themselves by adding another layer of scrutiny when it seems only a hand full of collectors are interested in a service that looks at $5,000+ cards. I doubt that Kevin could even make it if he decided to start his own grading company even in spite of the fact that he may be the best at detecting alterations....how many people here consider Mike Baker at GAI to be the best???? I hear it nearly everyday in here......yet most of the people making this claim don't have their cards slabbed by GAI.

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11-20-2007, 06:03 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxSo Jim. I read it slow and out loud like you said to three times. I even did it two more times to be safe. THAT'S FIVE TIMES!!!!! I still don't get it? Why did you give me another stupid idea? And if I'm the slow guy here why doesn't anyone else see the value I can't see? This lunatic is stumped. Please enlighten me ....I mean us ...on why this service is a no brainer and practical?

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11-20-2007, 06:17 PM

Posted By: PaulI'll be honest with you, I am at a complete loss how Jim can recommend a service that he has never actually used. It seems to have all the elements of those hollow celebrity endorsements on late night TV pitches. Hey, I wish Kevin all the luck in the world with whatever he does. Free enterprise! If enough people want this service, he'll do well. If not, then he'll fade into oblivion like my franchise for a penile reduction clinic.

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11-20-2007, 06:24 PM

Posted By: MikeU"my franchise for a penile reduction clinic." Paul, Do you have a web address, my situation has created severe back problems for me for years. I would be interested in correcting this.

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11-20-2007, 06:29 PM

Posted By: JoannActually, one way this works is if the dealer adds an upcharge to Jim in exchange for allowing a return privilege based on Kevin's opinion. It compensates the dealer for a slightly higher risk in the sale. He can sell an SGC graded card to X for $5K, or he can sell it to Jim for $5K with the Kevin-return agreement. Why would he not simply sell to X, who is willing to take it for $5K with no conditions? The upcharge makes the added risk (and possible admin related to a return) worth his while. The question of value added by Kevin's endorsement is also addressed in that the original dealer at least gets some of the additional value (although some should also rightly go to Jim who is paying for the endorsement). This motivates both people in the supply chain (buyer and seller) to support the use of Kevin's review and endorsement. Joann

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11-20-2007, 06:34 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellOkay in reverse order, Paul, I am endorsing Kevin as one of the most knowledgeable people of cards I know. He has not filled me in on the details of his venture. I suggest checking his website next week when his up. GoSox, Because I want another pair of eyes looking at my expensive cards I buy and I trust Kevin more than anyone. Dan, I would be willing to bet a lot of money you are wrong. Keith, Don't know. Kevin's word is good with me--a seal would be good over time but I am looking for peace of mind more than a seal. Also you asked before why do I think Kevin is an expert--I have read what he has written on Net54 and on Scott and Jay's board. Also based on what Mike Baker thinks of him. Anonymous, If you publish your name I will answer you--if you don't I will assume you are from LTS and just stirring the pot.

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11-20-2007, 06:38 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxSo Joann, I hear ya and thanks for answering. So do you think this scenario you throw out is (1) practical (would people see the value in paying the fee), (2) fills a need in the hobby, and (3) Kevin is "the man" to fill that need? Because all three need to be there for a volume based business to succeed. Unless the upcharge is big enough to take away the need for volume. But that kind of upcharge would probably make the service impractical. I wish Kevin the best of luck. I'm just being honest that I don't think 1, 2, and 3 are there. You and others may differ in your opinion. So be it. Life is still great!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Tom

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11-20-2007, 06:39 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellJoann, Several dealers have an inventory of high priced cards that they own. The way a purchase would work is as follows. I call dealer X and ask him to send me a scan of his 1933 Goudey Ruth PSA 8. Card looks fine on the scan so I ask him to mail it to Kevin. I pay mail fee and I pay Kevin's charge. If Kevin comfortable I buy the card. If not I return the card--I am out two mailing fees and Kevin's fee. Dealer owns card still. Contrary to what I think Dan and Keith said I am confident certain dealers would let me do this repeatedly.

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11-20-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, so you see this more as a personal service for you and your collecting goals? I was looking at a bigger picture. Taking my cue from your often-stated mission to clean up the hobby and rid it of bad cards... what would you do about the cards that Kevin rejects? To me, this is a very fundamental issue with his service that could 1) benefit just you, as you seem to be indicating tonight, or 2) benefit the entire hobby, which you have often stated is a goal of yours.

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11-20-2007, 06:48 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayAnd I will ask again...what if Kevin deems the card altered? From what I've read Jim would: 1) Pass on the card; and 2) Allow the card to remain in the market without saying a word. Now, how does that clean up the hobby?

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11-20-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, I'm guessing the dealer may not want to go this route because he may have a hard time selling card X if Kevin rejects it...He would be relying on the confidentiality of others to keep that quiet if he is to sell it to JoeSchmo who doesn't require Kevin's stamp of approval. But in that scenario if you keep that quiet then IMO that goes against everything that you previously stated when you first arrived on the Net54 scene to help clean up the problem cards in our hobby. All of this seems self-serving.

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11-20-2007, 06:52 PM

Posted By: leonPlease put your first and last name by your posts and your correct email address...If you don't then you can't post anymore in this thread....Nothing personal at all....same rules for everyone....take care

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11-20-2007, 06:52 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellKeith, I have explained this as well but here we go again... I view this as a personal service for those willing to pay for it. I just explained to Joann Keith what happens to the cards that Kevin has concerns about--they go back to the dealer I bought them from. I want to help the hobby but this in particular is an initiative to help me from buying bad cards. And just a correction--my goal has not been to rid the hobby of bad cards but to stop the flow of new bad ones into holders.

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11-20-2007, 06:57 PM

Posted By: Sean CAfter getting called out for the real reason that you won't have Kevin examine the cards in your collection, that's the best you can come up with: "I know you are, but what am I" Guess I overestimated you. ================================================ Sean C (Login schr1st) I don't think it's just me, but... November 19 2007, 7:22 AM I'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them. 1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered 2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through. 3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be? Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones? Edit Message JimCrandell (Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 7:40 AM Sean, You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss.

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11-20-2007, 06:57 PM

Posted By: JoannJim, Oh - OK. I get it. I was thinking of it more as a return privilege at some undetermined time after purchase - so the dealer may have committed the money elsewhere, passed up another sale, etc while it was being reviewed. Tom, I think the answer to each of your three questions, and also the answer to all three collectively, is that the market will decide. Is it practical? I guess I don't know - I don't run in those financial circles so I'm not sure what is considered practical for a $5000 card. It definitely seems practical to at least one person - Jim - who intends to go that route. Does it fill a hobby need? Again, I don't know. But intuitively I think it at least gets at a hobby need, if not filling it. There is a general sense that the grading (and authentication) industry needs something that is higher dollar and higher focus in terms of service and review of high end cards specifically for alteration and not just grade. I definitely feel like there is a niche out there that is not being filled by the current players. Is Kevin the person to do it? Well, this may surprise you, but I don't know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Actually, this question goes along with the first question. If there is a need to be filled, is this the way to go about it and is Kevin the person to do it? Which brings me back to the market sorting it out. I can't answer the questions, but the market will sort it out. Personally, I think that the best shot to have it work is to get it to the point where sellers seek Kevin's endorsement. To get to that point, there has to be some value established. If the seal can start to take on perceived value the same way slabs do now, then the selling community will start seeking out the seals and at that point it will take off. The trick is to get Kevin to that point before the major grading companies decide that there is, in fact, a niche here and offer their own high-end-close-review-super-expert-extra-attention service. J

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11-20-2007, 06:57 PM

Posted By: JohnUntil they find out that is what is going on or until you reject the first card. I'm curious if Kevin or whomever came up with this fantastic idea of grading graded cards has been reading the PCGS coin forums for the past several months. It seems that there's a group of dealers that have formed a stickering service to sticker coins in PCGS/NGC/ANACS slabs that are "worthy" of their sticker. There was all sorts of hype about this venture and it was dumped on the masses and said to be for the collector and for the good of the hobby.......for a "modest" fee of course. What a load of Crap. It's good for someone's wallet Period. It's just another (not even good) idea on how to prey upon the fears of collectors and a way to pry more money out of them for yet another service on an already professionally graded coin, which since it is holdered you cannot see the 3rd side, aka the Rim. The professionally graded coin, much like the card, is backed by a guarantee. What about this almighty card sticker? What sort of guarantee is there? Is there cold hard cash behind it when an error occurs because they do occur. I have no problem asking some of my friends, whom I know are knowledgeable about a specific series, about a card and sending them a link to the card or forwarding the scans. Those opinions are very valuable to me and all part of friendship. Sending the card to a person or asking a dealer to send a card to a person so I can get an opinion on it before I buy it is just plain ridiculous.

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11-20-2007, 06:58 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellDan, I respect your opinion but I am doing nothing wrong in asking Kevin to look at a prospective card. Most collectors collect for themselves right? As I explained I want the grading companies to toughen grading standards and overall knowledge about altered cards so nthey can identify--I want auction houses to stop taking creases out of cards and reject cards from suspicious people(doctors). I don't think any of my ideas have ever concerned attacking issue of existing altered cards in holders. Steve, Who said this was designed to clean up the hobby--why do you think that?

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11-20-2007, 07:03 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI hear ya Joann. I think everyone here is actually giving their opinion in one way or another on how they think the market will react. None of us know for sure <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But many of have been around the hobby long enough to pretty much know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> The day dealers offer that service you mentioned is the day they all admit their other services are garbage. It'll never happen. What the point of a forum without a good debate, right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-20-2007, 07:05 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayJim: I haven't been on this board as long as you but it seems that "cleaning up the hobby" has been your focus in most every thread you participate in. I seem to recall several threads you started asking the auction houses to sign on to some kind of code of conduct. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is just all about you.

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11-20-2007, 07:06 PM

Posted By: Brian(Third time might be a charm) Jim, How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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11-20-2007, 07:07 PM

Posted By: KeithLeon... thanks for the reminder, but the addy works fine. Jim, what is a service like this worth to you on a per card basis? Though your description would seem tailor-made to satisfy your needs, it is somewhat unique as most high-end collectors do purchase through auction houses and it doesn't seem conceivable that your model would work in that arena. Kevin would definitely need an expanded service offering to appeal to as many well-heeled collectors as possible. His business as it is defined by you is more a paid favor than a way to earn a living.

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11-20-2007, 07:09 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellNobody would think it was unusual if I drove 20 minutes to Parsippany and asked one of Dave's graders to look at a psa card I was thinking of buying from a dealer. Why is it so unusual to ask the same thing of Kevin--he may know more than an SGC grader--he may know less--not sure. I don't even care about the seal--he looks at it and says yes or no. Maybe this service will be just for me and the LTS collector who currently has Kevin look at his cards. If so--great--if others join in great for Kevin.

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11-20-2007, 07:13 PM

Posted By: JimcrandellKeith, Thats correct. I don't know--have never discussed price--you could ask your LTS friend who pays Kevin what he gives him. I am switching my buying for high end cards away from the auction houses and toward dealers with inventory.

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11-20-2007, 07:16 PM

Posted By: GoSoxBoSoxI guess I just can't understand why anyone would pay for Kevin's guarantee when the third party grading company guarantee's the card is authentic and unaltered for the cards' full value. The horse has been thoroughly beaten. I hope I'm wrong Kevin. At least you have one eager customer.

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11-20-2007, 07:23 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, let's say that you use Kevin's service on a PSA 8 Ty Cobb and Kevin rejects the card for evidence of trimming. What do you do with that knowledge? Let's say Jeff Lichtman asks your opinion of the card...do you tell him what you know about it? Do you stand by and watch the dealer sell the card to someone else? Are you not morally obligated to at least inform the hobby that this card exists in a graded holder?

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11-20-2007, 07:25 PM

Posted By: Brian(4th time might be a charm) Jim, How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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11-20-2007, 07:34 PM

Posted By: MWI think we're talking about two different concepts here. The first is Jim getting a private opinion on a card from someone he trusts. There are many well-known collectors who do this. I see no inherent problem -- isn't Jim just as entitled as everyone else to use an additional set of eyes that are better trained than his at authenticating and detecting possible alterations and/or overgrades? The second is employing a company or individual to validate an already graded card. In this case, there may exist a burden of liability on the company/individual providing the service in those situations where a grading company's opinion is rejected in favor of someone else's "more qualified" opinion. This would be especially crucial in situations where the card was of considerable value. Again, as previously mentioned, this type of service would need to be backed with some type of financial guarantee.

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11-20-2007, 07:55 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovJim: "Why is it so unusual to ask the same thing of Kevin--he may know more than an SGC grader--he may know less--not sure." With all due respect Jim....how can you trust your cards to a guy who might know less than an SGC grader?? You clearly admit you're not even sure how Kevin stacks up versus a professional, yet you're willing to trust him with high dollar purchases?? Basement experiments with bleaching and soaking does not make him an expert on anything...except maybe laundry. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

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11-20-2007, 08:34 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasDan, What is the moral obligation? If Kevin renders an opinion in conflict with an opinion of a professional third party grading company, does that make Kevin's opinion correct and the third party grading company's opinion wrong? I think we have to be careful annoiting a person omniscient who has no experience grading baseball cards professionally. I think the professional grading service has the advantage in seeing the card out of the holder whereas Kevins opinion would come from the outside looking in. If GAI and Mike Baker are endorsing Kevin 100% as Jim says, why don't they join forces to try and reinvigorate GAI? For Kevin to be successful he has to be affiliated with a grading company or start his own with a written gurantee and the financial means to backup his opinion. To simply state that he is comfortable or uncomfortable with a graded card being un-altered is not very potent. I think an independent operator would also have major liabilities trying to profit from deeming other grading companies cards altered in the holder. CB

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11-20-2007, 08:55 PM

Posted By: bugontherug<<<Jim, How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)? >>>> Let's see....... 1) booted off PSA for continued dissing PSA, even when warned. Reinstated when given an award. Then transformed into PSA cheerleader. 2) booted off LTS twice. (Oh well, maybe splitting hairs as he may have quit one of those times as he outran the arrows directed his way.) 3) continues the trend on Net54. Lessons seemingly never learned. Please note: story's such as 'bye-bye Brian', 'GAI/Mike Baker crossover club party'......oh well, you get the idea. Jim's resume in above matters is spectacular. No one in the hobby does it better than Jim. Take Care........Bug