VCP updating prices [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-21-2007, 05:45 PM

Posted By: KyleDoes anyone know how often VCP updates card prices? A card I sold over a month ago was never posted, and I am wondering how up to date the service is and what to expect from it for the remaining 11 months of my membership. All in all, a great website, just curious on the price issue. -Kyle

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11-21-2007, 06:55 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderKyle, First of all you should of contacted us directly through our site and not using this board for something of this nature. Simply because I don't want people here to think we are spamming the site. To answer your question all prices update with in minutes from the auction ending on eBay. Now what I need to know is if the auction you are referring to did it meet our criteria. Meaning that it was a card with no qualifier and not a BIN auction. If you can give me the eBay id number I can check it for you and give you an answer.

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11-21-2007, 06:58 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensWhy no use of BIN's? They are a realized price. Lee

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11-21-2007, 07:04 PM

Posted By: KyleHey Bobby, I didn't mean to do any harm, just was wondering if anyone on the board knew. I apologize for not contacting you directly. I realized the card I have in question was a BIN, therefore why it was not posted. Love the site, can't wait to use it as much as I hope to! -Kyle

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11-21-2007, 07:13 PM

Posted By: AnthonyBIN's are a direct sale price, and not realization of an open market value set by competing buyers. I'm glad they aren't included on VCP- that would open it up to data from dealer sales, shows, etc.

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11-21-2007, 07:44 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensAnd what is wrong with adding prices paid at shows and to dealers? Someone is buying the card a price. The purchase is final and done. By excluding these you are noting getting a full grasp of the whole environment. I know it would be tough to keep track of but it is a part of the hobby and should be a part of any pricing to get an overall picture of the pricing, not just picking and choosing what you want to put in your data. Lee

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11-21-2007, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayWe are all aware of what you think of VCP. Why don't you start your own service that will provide the information you want. Those of us who use VCP on a regular basis find it to be an invaluable tool. Disclaimer: I have no vested interest, financial or otherwise, in VCP. I'm just plain sick of the bashing everytime you and a few others get the chance.

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11-21-2007, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensExcuse me Mr. Murray, Get your facts straight. It is my brother who has voiced his opinions against Mr Binder and his is not the only one that has on this board. I am in no way saying that he has a bad service, I just feel for it to be complete it should included what a mentioned in the earlier response. Everyone wonders why threads get off track and spats happen on this board, 9 times out of 10 it is people reading more into something than there is actually there. In the future. I would appreciate any attacks towards me be made on subjects I have have voiced an opinion you do not like, be my opinion and not my brothers. Get your facts straight before letting it rip, I will take the flak when I deserve it but unwarranted is not called for and I will give a rebuttal. Lee

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11-21-2007, 08:08 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderLee, We only post auctions that everyone can see the results and final price. If we take prices from dealers what would stop them from saying they sold a card for $10,000 and then the card shows up on eBay for sale. Members seeing the value on our site would bid accordingly. Thus they would be controlling the market and we would be given our members false information. This hobby is has some shady characters in it that would love to take advantage of a situation.

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11-21-2007, 08:11 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayI stand corrected. My search of past posts related to "Behrens" and "VCP" does in fact disclose that it was Jay. I apologize for the confusion.

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11-21-2007, 08:16 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderKyle, No harm done it is just some members here are a little tough on these kind of posting. We are there for you on our site anytime you need help with anything. You should have received a PM when you signed up how to contact us directly.

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11-21-2007, 08:19 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI do not see the problem with verified actual results if you have confirmation from the buyer and seller. I know it is not easy but it could be added. As with a paper price guide, it is what it is a guide (educational information). Lee

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11-21-2007, 08:22 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderLee, We are trying to be more then just a guide and a real price. Getting proof from both buyer and seller would be to much work. And again what would stop them from being in on it together. Just an area that can not even been thought about. I get people all the time that want to give me price data and tell them "Thanks" but we just can't take it.

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11-21-2007, 09:07 PM

Posted By: JKBobby, I definitely see your point regarding the dealer sales. However, I think that Lee has a valid point with respect to BIN sales. I think they do reflect market price even without the open competition/bidding on a product (which sales, given the possibility and/or probability of shilling, may not really be as accurate a reflection of the market as we all think).

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11-21-2007, 09:08 PM

Posted By: MattDo you also not count auctions with blurry images or where the seller paid extra to have the item stay at the top of the page as a featured item? All sales should be included because once you start eliminating sales for not meeting some subjective criterion you enter a very slippery slope. If the item was bought/sold at a certain price, that's a valid sale and should be included. BINs should be in.

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11-21-2007, 09:41 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderWe are in the process of making it so that you will be able to see all the BIN sales. It will only be reflected in the price table if it is a one of a kind sale. And will drop as soon as a auction result is obtained. But will continue to show up in the sales forever with link to the auction. Another problem we have is right now on ebay there are almost 100,000 BIN's in auction and in the stores. So we are working on a way to add these to our site with out flooding our marketplace and making it like dump day all the time. These are just a few problems to consider.

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11-21-2007, 09:46 PM

Posted By: MattBobby, saying BIN aren't included because you don't yet have the capacity to handle them is very different from saying they aren't included because they don't reflect actual value. If you agree that they do reflect actual values and you're working towards including them then I think we'd all be fine with that, but I'm not sure if that's your stance...

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11-21-2007, 09:50 PM

Posted By: WesleyI agree with the above posters who would prefer to see the inclusion of the ebay BIN sale prices. Any concern about whether these are legitimate sales can also apply to ebay auctions and sales from major auctions as well. I think they are every bit as legitimate as auctions and do in fact reflect market price. When so many of the auctions are shilled, the prices may not really be as accurate a reflection of the market as we all think. On ebay, Mastro or whatever, you can have two particularly exuberant registry competitors driving up the price, that is not necesarilly an accurate reflection of the market. Perhaps the solution would be to list the prices with a notation that the sale was through a BIN. Then the VCP users can take that into account as they deem appropriate. As a subscriber to the service, I cannot help but to think that more information is better.

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11-21-2007, 10:02 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderHandling the capacity is not a problem and it is my true belief is that more then 95% are overpriced. The seller is just fishing for a person from the registry willing to pay anything to get the card to complete his set. It will take some time to get the 100K into the system but the stay there all the time and adding on new ones will be small and easy. We just need to make it so members that buy cards via the site don't get bombarded. And as stated earlier we are coming up with a solution. We found a new program that we are incorporating and the coding is taking longer and more difficult then anticipated.

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11-21-2007, 10:19 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensBobby, You say you are providing pricing information, but from what you are saying is that you are dictating what you want the people to see and not an overall picture. Whether it is a price you feel is too high is wrong since someone paid it they were comfortable with and should be recorded and left up to the judgement of the your subscribers to decided how to interpret the information. You are making it sound as though you are deciding which information they will see. Once again the complete picture is not being disclosed. One question about the BINs. We are talking about actual sales not just listing the card, right? Lee

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11-21-2007, 11:02 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderLee, The way our system works if the following: Every night our software gets all the new listings on eBay. The next day we go and approve all the auctions, no qualifier, scan of card, etc. Now the auction is in our queue. Our computer checks the status of the auction every 15 minutes to update the price and to see if the auction has ended. If the auction has ended and there are bids and the reserve is met then it posts to the site. So in order for us to include the BIN's they would have to be added in the same manner. And one of the problems we encountered is the BIN's have no ending time like a regular auction. In regards to a price service I feel we are as close as you can get to being true. There is nothing else available and everything else is simply a guide. There are things that can be different and better which we are working on and we will get there in short time.

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11-22-2007, 02:33 AM

Posted By: Martin NealOne of the things that has impressed me about Bobby and VCP is that they are continually trying to improve their site. Whenever I find a mistake, by the next morning, it is fixed and I receive an email from VCP thanking me for pointing it out. Personally, I would prefer to keep the Bins out. I am already aware that I could probably sell my card for more if I bined it or put it in my store (which could take a week or a year), but I need to know what a card will go for now or what I should pay for it during a true auction. It would be nice to have a history of bined sales, but, I think they shouln't be included in the averaged prices.

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11-22-2007, 05:16 AM

Posted By: Matt 1) How is a high BIN that a buyer hits to fill his registry any different than an auction where 2 buyers are battling it out to fill their registry? We all know some silly prices on PSA 9's that came about because of this in open auction. You include those listings as valid assesments of value, why not the BIN? 2) Why does the software need to keep track of auctions before they close? It would seem to me that all you would need to look at is the closed auctions. That would solve your issues about monitoring so many BIN offerings...

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11-22-2007, 05:48 AM

Posted By: Joe D.I would like to see BINs included in an online price guide. I understand the concern of ease of skewing those numbers by devious eBay'rs - so why not just list it as a BIN. I think collectors are astute enough to determine when an auction or a BIN is out of whack with other prices.... especially if ALL transactions (including BINs) are listed. More info is always better.

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11-22-2007, 06:35 AM

Posted By: BillI'm pretty sure if someone does not like the way VCP works, they will use their own judgement and not sign up. On the other hand, if they do like it, they will also use their own judgement and sign up. To each his own. No business is perfect. Every single one out there has its faults. My own personal belief is that if someone doesn't like the way a business is run, either A)Start up your own business and run it the way you think is right, B) Don't use that business, and C) Quit complaining about it. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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11-22-2007, 06:37 AM

Posted By: AnthonyI don't have a problem listing BIN's, I guess, as long as they don't effect the value on the "my collection" part of the site. FWIW, I only sell off dupes via BIN's, and they rarely, if ever, go to registry participants. The generalization that all high priced sales are due to registry lunacy, is lunacy.

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11-22-2007, 07:50 AM

Posted By: john/z28jd I dont use VCP except to look at old judge scans and im not signed up but what would stop people from putting up low BIN's and having friends buy them just to skew the value so they could actually get the cards cheaper. If im a dealer and i put up an old judge card and had a couple friends BIN right away with no actual transaction going but with prices much lower than they should go for,couldnt i then use his site to show a potential seller coming to me that the cards are worth less and heres data to prove it. I used to keep track of old judge prices and i never used BIN's just actual auctions. It was after i bought a dockman Matty from some guy on ebay for $65 a few years ago because he had no idea what he really had.If that was the only one and people used his site for reference well then they would come up with a $65 value for that card and they might sell one for that much and lose money or try to buy one and come up empty

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11-22-2007, 08:02 AM

Posted By: Matt"what would stop people from putting up low BIN's and having friends buy them just to skew the value so they could actually get the cards cheaper." The fact that the auction is public for all to see and their friend might not win it. Plus, Bobby is worried that BINs are too high - you are arguing they are too low. A sale is a sale is a sale.

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11-22-2007, 08:36 AM

Posted By: RedI think most people subscribe to the service only for the sales data. I don't care if the card sold at auction or through a BIN, a sales a sale, and the information for a BIN sale should be right there along with auction sales. If you do a completed item search on Ebay both BIN and auctions will be listed, so why not provide the same service. Another feature of your service is to provide information on pending listings of the card you're looking for. How important that feature is to users in relation to providing accurate pricing data I don't know. We're told the reason for not including BIN listings is that there are too many of them to be verified and that 95% of them are priced too high for us. I doubt auction listings are removed from our view when the current bid is too high? Since BIN listings don't go into the system, then BIN sales results aren't included in the pricing data provided. I can see where it may be too much work to look at all the BIN listings when providing the pending listing feature, but certainly when a BIN sells that's as important of an event as an auction sale. So maybe don't worry about BIN listings being included in the pending listing feature and just concentrate on the BIN listings that do sell. Let the people decide if the price was high, low, or right on the money. If you're being pushed to provide BIN listings in your pending listings then maybe provide a warning that the accuracy of the live BIN listings haven't been verified by you like the live auction listings have, but when a BIN item sells you'll then verify the accuracy of the listing and provide that price data right along with auction sales.

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11-22-2007, 08:50 AM

Posted By: Cat (ret.)I have been a full subsciber since the very early days. I couldn't be happier with the service. I do think that BINs can skew the data. As stated earlier BINs many times reflect one desperate buyer gritting his teeth and paying an astonomical price just to fill his need. Slighly less than 11 months ago I bought a somewhat hard to find card for $2,300 (it was BST, but just as easily could have been BIN). On Sunday that same card in the same grade sold, in an EBay auction, for $840. Personally, I think the $840 figure is the true reflection of accurate pricing and that is what I want from VCP.

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11-22-2007, 08:51 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmI agree with Matt on this. The more data on sales of a particular card that is available, the better. When I look at a historical list of sales such as VCP provides, I tend to filter out the outliers (unusually high or low prices) in my mind, and I look at the average of the listed prices, although it is indeed useful to be able to see the actual range of prices that have been realized over a particular period of time. If there are shenanigans going on such as shill bidding in auctions, or phony sales between friends, I don't see any way to identify and exclude these in any systematic way. Again I don't think realized BIN prices are fundamentally any less valid than other types of sales. I can understand however that there might be technical problems associated with including them in the data base. By the way I subscribe to VCP and have found it to be very helpful. I also look at the monthly Sports Market Report, which presumably bases its values on some sort of historical average of known sales. VCP and SMR are both 'guides' to what the current market for a card is, with the difference being that VCP displays the specific sales figures upon which the averages are based.

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11-22-2007, 09:03 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeWhat is the difference between a BIN bought buy a nutcase paying too much or 2 nutcases running up an auction with ridiculous snipes at the end? I have been a nutcase like this before.

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11-22-2007, 09:05 AM

Posted By: sagardThe BIN information would be incredibly useful, especially if they could glean information from store sales. I don't care if they are excluded from the recent five average, but I hate that VPC seems to pretend they don't exist. Additionally I don't see how BIN are any less competitive than auctions with a single bid or reserve auction listings. As for auctions setting value of a card, I'm not sure I buy that. 95%-99% of ebay auctions sell for the absolute minimum an item can sell for.