www.AlteredCards.com [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-18-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLooks like the dream is becoming a reality. Soon dealers/collectors will be able to get that added level of security by having Kevin do a thorough examination of the card(graded or ungraded) and in turn receive the confirmation that it is verified unaltered and has a hologram sticker saying so. I am not likely to buy an expensive card without this and I suspect others looking to put down $10K or more on a single card will require this...and the value of the card will go up with this verification. Good luck Kevin!

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11-18-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: AndrewIt says that "graded" cards will be looked over and the sticker placed onto the holder, doesn't this still mean someone can crack the case and put in an altered card? Just my opinion. But it is a good idea if you plan on keeping the cards in your collection. Andrew

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11-18-2007, 12:11 PM

Posted By: keywayWhy is this service needed. Another middleman. Pretty soon the gradind will cost more than the card. What a waste of money.

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11-18-2007, 12:11 PM

Posted By: PaulJim Is it safe to presume that you have had several of your cards inspected and verified?

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11-18-2007, 12:20 PM

Posted By: keywayAll my cards go to SGC. I have total trust in thier grading. Why do I know need them looked at again?

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11-18-2007, 12:20 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaFor only $50 extra you can send your Kevin certified slabs to www.AlteredCardsWithKevinStickers.com and I will authenticate the sticker.

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11-18-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThere is no downside to another set of eyes examining a card, but it's unclear if this will catch on.

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11-18-2007, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Paul......and for the record, my dream involves fishing on a deserted tropical beach accompanied by a pair of rather attractive actress/models mixing my Bombay Sapphire gin and tonics.

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11-18-2007, 01:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul!!! You responded to me!!!! I didn't think Kevin was in business yet. If though I was going to buy a 33 Goudey psa 8 Ruth(which I may) there is no question I would have the card sent to him first. In fact probably any card I buy over $5,000 that I have a doubt about I would have the sale contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval.

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11-18-2007, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, where the hell were you when I sold my 33 Goudey #144 Ruth 8? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I don't disagree with you on the issue of buying very expensive cards. The last few 5 figure cards I've been interested in I had a professional look at for me. I'm wondering what I was thinking not doing so before.....

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11-18-2007, 01:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellFor expensive cards this means that I would buy them from dealers who carry an extensive inventory like Steve Novella, Kris Keppler, Peter Lalos and perhaps Larry Mayer who would have no qualms about mailing an expensive card to Kevin and have him look at it first. I realize auction houses are not set up to operate like this at the present time so it makes me unlikely to buy cards sight unseen at auctions. Given what I know, think and hear about many of the larger ones, I amk happy to redirect my business away from them. This used to be the way I bought cards and companies like Superior Sportscard, Sports Cards Plus and Andy Madec in addition to Steve and Kris would call me directly with cards I needed for my graded sets. Hopefully we will see more dealers going back toward this business model and away from the big auction houses and ebay.

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11-18-2007, 02:04 PM

Posted By: BrianI agree Jim. Its much better for everyone, if you can buy a card without others knowing about it or being able to bid on it. I am sure dealers will make more profits by not taking advantage of an open market. Its a dream come true for everyone.

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11-18-2007, 02:16 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBrian, Who says I won't pay auction prices? If enough big collectors felt like I do it would force a change. Maybe they will at some point--maybe not. Today any potential buyer is taking a risk as to my knowledge the big auction houses do not have a return policy.

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11-18-2007, 03:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhy do we need a change from the auction business? It's a very workable business model.

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11-18-2007, 03:34 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, You know what I am going to say as we have talked about this several times--enough cards in slabs are altered and you don't have the expertise to know which ones in your auction are altered.

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11-18-2007, 03:38 PM

Posted By: barrysloateNo, I don't. Fair point. But that doesn't mean auctions aren't good venues to sell cards. I'm sure most of the retail dealers you purchase from picked up the bulk of their inventory from the very same auctions you don't want to bid in (I know, they offer a return policy).

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11-18-2007, 03:49 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Right on all scores but they would make sale contingent upon Kevin's approval whereas you have consigners to deal with and so that aspect is unworkable for you.

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11-18-2007, 04:04 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim, I think it's totally cool that you want Kevin's eye on any card you buy. Nothing wrong with wanting someone you trust to look at something before you buy it - with certain card issues I'm unfamiliar with, I'll ask someone I think is an expert if I feel uncomfortable with a card. If you're comfortable with Kevin's eye, more power to you (Just let me know which ones you won't be bidding on; it'll be nice to know which items I don't have to bid on against you). But there's no way on earth that any auction house should allow you to return an item that doesn't pass muster after it's been purchased. Ask any auction house to have whoever you want look at your cards before you bid - Kevin, the guy at the gas station, my Uncle Dino, whatever. But once you bought the card, you bought the card - and I think it's unrealistic to expect an auction house to recognize Kevin's "brand" after the purchase has been made. If you bought an SGC 8 at auction, and PSA wouldn't cross it to an 8, you wouldn't think for a second that the auction house should take the card back. If SGC or PSA says a card is good, and Kevin says it's altered, it would be similarly silly to expect any auction house to recognize that after the sale has been made. Regardless of how many checks and balances you want to install inbetween an auction opening and your bid, I can't imagine you would expect an auction house to submit to the judgement of any fourth party, regardless of WHO it is, once an auction has closed. -Al

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11-18-2007, 04:05 PM

Posted By: AnonymousOf course I respond to you Jim! There's absolutely no reason I shouldn't. The trouble is that I post to a thread, you probably respond, and I never show up again as I've forgotten either which thread I posted to, or it was one of my infamous cheap shots at whatever the subject was at hand where I've made my statement and moved on. It's a hit and run style developed and mastered at CU. Speaking of ducking, you were quite adept at dodging my question. I'm not curious about what you are going to buy, but what you have already bought over the years and whether Kevin has inspected any of these cards. You do have some rather nice (translation: expensive) cards and in light of your concerns regarding the copious amount of altered cards residing in plastic as it is alleged, I'm curious as to what the results have been. Is JO hiding under his desk with a quivering hand, afraid to write a check for fear of the wrath of David Hall, or have the boys at SGC decided to share office space with the gypsy GAI caravan as they move from place to place thus keeping one step ahead of you and the defective cards? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-18-2007, 04:19 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- to continue Al's point, let's take a hypothetical: You buy a card in one of my auctions graded by SGC. You show it to Kevin and he suspects it's had some alteration. I take the card back and ask SGC to give it a closer look, and after careful observation they insist that they can find nothing wrong with it. How do we resolve it?

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11-18-2007, 04:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl, Absolutely agree-I don't expect any auction house to give me a return privlege--and they shouldn't. All I am saying is that 1)I will buy my expensive cards from dealers who will give me a return privlege in case Kevin is uncomfortable with them and 2)Taken to its logical conclusion if one does believe lets say that 5-10% of all graded cards worth $10,000 are altered, then it would seem that potential buyers once they become informed of this would want bto avail themselves of Kevin's services. If so, then they won't be buying cards at auction in the future unless they are sure the card is legit. Jim

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11-18-2007, 04:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, We resolve it by saying I own the card. The return privlege does not work for an auction house. However consider this. If somehow evidence comes out that more cards have gotten by the slabbers than we think then collectors may lose faith in grading companies and buy fewer cards via auction and more directly from dealers. Not saying this will happen--just a possibility. Jim

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11-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner I'm sorry, but I'am bored.....If you can't tell, than I don't care. Buyer beware. I'f you collect vintage cards then learn about the issues, if not collect somthing else............ Be well Brian

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11-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI'd like to know where the evidence is that all these altered cards are getting past the graders. Can someone even point out one $5,000+ card in a holder that is altered?

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11-18-2007, 04:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul, Wow--lucky I think you are one of the smartest guys in the hobby, that you helped me try to bring down the mighty gemmintman and you are part of that esteemed group which I will always look up to or I might not answer. 1)Kevin has never been to my house, I have never sent him any cards and I just met him for the first time two months ago when I had dinner with he and Anthony. Although you did not ask, I will volunteer that I have no financial interest in Kevin's new business venture. 2)You are right--I have concerns. Maybe they are misplaced but enough pretty smart people have told me enough things that I have concerns. 3)Is my new best friend Joe Orlando quivering--I don't think so. In fact, he invited me to visit PSA for a couple of days and spend some time with his graders. Once I figure out when I can get out there I plan to take him up on it. Maybe he just wants to talk about this rogue moderator he has. 4)As far as SGC and GAI: GAI has graded some packs for me but I never took them up on the 25 for 25 offer. I like those guys and I hope they succeed but I don't know how they do it. As far as my old friend Dave, besides hiring that schlocky firm to redesign his web site <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> he has been a genius since he bought a controlling interest. He has built his company on quality and has carved out a niche in pre-war. Saying that I have done zero business with Dave--although we do talk regularly. I have made a few comments to you in the threads and you never responded so I was beginning to think there was a Gemmintman/Zardoz/King Kellogg alliance against me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jim

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11-18-2007, 05:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- one thing I do agree with (well maybe more than one thing) is that the possibility collectors will eventually be disillusioned by the grading services does exist.

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11-18-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, If that happens, just imagine how disillusioned they will be with ungraded cards. I can never see the hobby going back to ungraded.

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11-18-2007, 05:44 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCan someone point out a $5000+ altered card that made it past the graders at PSA or SGC? I mean besides the PSA8 Wagner. I'm going to keep asking until someone shows some examples.

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11-18-2007, 05:47 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDan- I have none to show...but I know of some that do exist. Unfortunately, confidentiality does not allow me to discuss them further.

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11-18-2007, 05:53 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaSo basically it's a HUGE problem in our hobby, but nobody wants to step up with the evidence? Okay.

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11-18-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHuge might be an exaggeration, but it does exist. There are people out there who are very skilled at paper restoration and have rebuilt and rebacked cards so flawlessly that some of them have gotten into holders. Whether it's an epidemic or just a small number I wouldn't know.

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11-18-2007, 06:14 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierBefore this gets out of hand, there is no need to make it a controversial issue. There is no business venture yet, just a statement that it may someday be offered for those who want it. That portion is still work in progress and may or may not ever come to fruition. The website is currently being built and is about 75% complete. It is nothing more than an educational site about altered cards with a gathering of information put into one common place for all to see. For the most part, much of it has been previously posted here but there are some additional pictures, new info and a doctored card gallery. This new website has got the endorsement of some very respected names in the hobby. Love him or hate him Jim is included. Regardless of your opinion, he is one of the few in the PSA HOF with a collection deserving of the honor. Kevin Saucier

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11-18-2007, 07:02 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, Love me or hate me? Nobody hates me that I know of. This is only cards.

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11-18-2007, 07:23 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThere is a paper conservator in Omaha that I saw on a local PBS show that aired right after Antiques Roadshow a couple of weeks ago that removed vintage ink from an old photo just by dropping some unnamed chemical onto the ink...it just flat out disappeared. I could imagine that someone with that knowledge and talent could do some real damage in this hobby. What I don't get is that restoration is quite acceptable in many hobbies, but for cards it is a no-no. Do you suppose there will ever be a day when erasing, rebuilding/rebacking will be acceptable? I think we have to accept that many things like trimming has been going on as long as cards have been collected. I noticed some T206 cards in SGC Lionel Carter slabs that were trimmed and labeled authentic. Do you think he picked them up back in the 40-50s, did it himself or are they something he picked up more recently (1990s)?

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11-18-2007, 07:30 PM

Posted By: LarryThe first time I ever read one of the "detecting alteration" threads, it was pretty obvious the threads were a vehicle for substantiating the need for such a venture and startup was just a heartbeat away.

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11-18-2007, 07:34 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaIf you're looking at your cards with electron microscopes and blacklights you're not having enough fun.

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11-18-2007, 08:01 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovI'm sorry for my approach, but in my profession one needs credentials to make judgements on something. What documented qualifications does the head of this soon to arrive service have? What professional grading training has he done? Where has he spent time learning about authentication and alterations from experts? Playing around with cards and chemicals in your basement does not establish your reputation as an expert. Look before you leap Jim. Actually what percent of your present collection has been validated by this new service? Frank

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11-18-2007, 08:03 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, I'm certainly about three steps away from the market now...but I'm trying to understand... 1) You clearly don't trust PSA, or SGC, or GAI, or any authentication company's competance to catch or to have caught alternations on cards. I can certainly appreciate this viewpoint, and I share it. 2) You also don't trust the company's various buyback gaurantees, that they will "make good" if the card is found out to have been altered. This would, and should in theory, insulate you against a card being altered, as they would have to essentially replace it (with cash or card) if they made a mistake. I can appreciate that as well...the various companies certainly have an inherent interest in believing their own systems are infallable. 3) You believe this gentleman's (Kevin) eye is the best that you can find, and you want him to review potential cards you buy. No problem - we all have experts we respect. But very simply...why is sending the card to him any different than sending it to any other company? What do you expect to happen to the graded cards if Kevin rejects them? Does it bother you if the cards are listed by Kris and Steve (both guys I know well & respect greatly) as OK, with no notes to failing this secondary vetting? What is the endgame? If your only concern is keeping the cards out of your collection, then it makes sense to get as many eyes as possible to review. Are you OK accepting that the number of people you'll be able to buy from is going to drop dramatically, and with reducing sources you'll probably be paying more money? Hey, if someone respects PRO and wants their cards certified only by them...why not??

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11-18-2007, 10:30 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthSome random and unorganized thoughts... I'm not sure one can unequivocally rule out alterations, or the lack there of, with a card in a sealed plastic holder. Cards are examined by graders, either thoroughly or not, outside of protectos and certainly not in sealed holders which limit visibility at the very least. Kevin seems very knowledgeable on the subject of card alterations so he may very well be able to do a better job than the grading services are doing. As a side note, what motivates one to dabble in learning about altering cards as opposed to taking up tennis or Kung Fu? And to reply to Dan's post about showing cards valued at 5K or more that are altered...Cards are not considered altered by majority of the collectors or dealers once graded and sealed. But it is very common for dealers to break out cards to resubmit hoping for a bump in grade and in an instant, after relying on the flip at the top of the holder which assigns a grade, they end up with a card that will never grade again. This phenomena is very common. Greg

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11-18-2007, 10:32 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJim, More opinions are not necessarily better, the important thing is that you trust the opinion. After all, the card will end up in your collection so make sure that you are satisfied. Peter C.

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11-18-2007, 11:24 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback"One man and the truth is a majority." -- Milton Friedman

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11-19-2007, 02:51 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell"It is very common for dealeers to break out cards to resubmit hoping for a bump in grade.....and they end up with a card that will never grade again. The phenomena is very common." So I hear Greg Frank, Credentials?--I have read his posts here and on the other board on alterations and he has actually gotten cards past Mike Baker who I consider the best grader in the business. As I mentioned earlier Frank he has never looked at my cards. CrazySC, Thanks for posting. To answer your questions... 1)If Kevin says anything but unqualified unaltered then they go back to dealer. 2)My only concern in doing this is to keep unaltered cards out of my collection. I would not tell anyone if I returned the card. Remember just because Kevin says he is uncomfortable does not mean its altered. 3)This is only for the expensive cards. I will still try to complete sets where I just need a few cards on ebay or through dealers and hope for the best if the cards look good.

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11-19-2007, 06:10 AM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanJim, I see another potential problem with this. You will return the card to the dealer and not tell anyone else about the potential problem. Then what will the dealer do with this card? Probably resell it to someone else with no mention that it was returned because of probable alteration. The dealer will want to protect his/her investment. It would be nice if there was a way to either take the altered card out of circulation or slab/or label it as altered. With some of the cards, Kevin will feel "uncomfortable" with them, but with others Kevin will be positive that they are altered and someone else will end up purchasing them. If they are raw, then it is buyer beware, but if they are graded by PSA or SGC there should be a mechanism in place to remedy the situation. Rick