Leon has opinions just like the rest of us [Archive]

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09-26-2007, 02:42 PM

Posted By: RobWhy do some people get on Leons case about his opinions? It seems he's got a dozen or so sponsors of this site to help support this forum, so who cares if his opinion as to who skydash should consign his new find is one of those sponsors? Maybe even its NOT one them!?!? Who cares, its his opinion. He's got an opinion just like we all do. We can post as much as Leon can, he shouldn't be punished just cuz he's the moderator. If he's got an opinion on who to consign an item (or items) to, let him voice it! I'm sure skydash has received 100s of opinions on who to consign the collection to, and Leon's opinion is 1 of them. Skydash will make up his own mind. So much bickering and personal attacks ... let it go people. As Zinn said, the reason why many posters stay hidden is because of the personal stabs. Lets try to help each other out and not attack others for their opinions. If you collect high/low grade, slabbed/raw, 19th/20th century, commons/HOFers, choice of auction house its all GOOD! I'm sure I'll get attacked for posting this!!! Rob <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: peter chaoThis is a slightly more interesting question...we all get personally attacked for our posts at times. Is there any reason why our fearless leader should be spared? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 02:53 PM

Posted By: leonNo....I get it just like everyone.....and I expect it.....I am a board member just like everyone else. What I will say is that if I don't like someplace then I don't visit it....

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09-26-2007, 02:53 PM

Posted By: jay behrensIt's because Leon is the moderator that he is held to a higher standard. Also, it's bad business form for him to be promoting one advertiser over another. His coziness with Matro has been noted mentioned, even by him. Leon has an agenda, plain and simple. Do what's best for lining Leon's pockets. Most of you just refuse to see it. To each their own. This board could have been run just as effectively with donations from the people here on the forum and we wouldn't even be having half of these discussions. He could have pocked some of that money and given Brain some for his efforts. I'm all for that and I would have donated money every time. Instead, Leon took the route of greed. This used to be a forum run by collectors for collectors. This is no longer the case. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: leonIf you continue this diatribe (again) you will be banned......You have said what you want to....Everyone can make up their own mind about me and the board....again, if you don't like it then go away....

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09-26-2007, 03:03 PM

Posted By: Robif Leon said "you should only consign items to the the auction houses that line my pocket" then he should be put in the shredder, rightfully so. But if he says "my recommendation is that you consign this collection of cards to auction house xyz because they have alot of experience dealing with this type of product and history shows they can get you top dollar" then that sounds like its coming from a collector to me, and not a business man. We all know Leon is a collector. If Bill Gates owned this site then I'd have 2nd thoughts. Rob <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 03:08 PM

Posted By: leonI agree completely. I try to be neutral on my alliances with ALL of the advertisers. I have personal relationships with every one of them. I do my best to stay neutral between them. Again, everyone will think what they want to....History speaks for itself. For the record I have never received one cent from any auction house, including Mastro, for anything other than my own consignments, or the banners. Not one cent.... As far as discussions about the banners, as far as I can remember almost every one of them is brought up by Jay....so without him bringing the subject up there wouldn't be any discussions....gee....how ironic......

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09-26-2007, 03:18 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI wasn't looking to reopen debate on the banner topic. I know that $$$ blinds you and you will never change your mind. Just pointing out an option that you passed up that would have saved you a lot of headaches and discussions about what your motives are. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: DR.

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09-26-2007, 03:39 PM

Posted By: pasThis subject has been exhausted. Mastro has been ripped to shreds on this board with no intervention by Leon. That speaks volumes to the issue of his supposed bias and greed.

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09-26-2007, 03:49 PM

Posted By: jay behrensYeah, Leon is so unbiased that he jumps into every Mastro thread and tries to spin in Mastro's favor. I got a chuckle from one of my recent emails I got today, it said Leon is just like another fellow Texan, Bush, all he does is lie and spin. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 03:49 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierMaybe I'm the minority here but it's Leon's board he should be able to do whatever he wants with it. If he wants to sell ad space...good for him!

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09-26-2007, 03:55 PM

Posted By: Alan ElefsonJay- There is a simple solution for the issue you keep badgering this board about. LEAVE! Start your own board "by collectors and for collectors,", otherwise, stick to posting about vintage cards. If you believe you can make a site that is more informative and draws more expert collectors, then by all means do it. I for one love this board and cannot believe the vitriol that is directed at Leon (largely by you). Please remember that the primary focus of this board is vintage cards, not your personal issues with the moderator. I believe Skydash is owed an apology for the highjacking of his thank you thread. That was completely uncalled for. Alan Elefson aelefson@hotmail.com

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09-26-2007, 04:00 PM

Posted By: Chris BlandWhen was the last time there was a thread about vintage cards that had 100+ posts? Jay may be at the center of this latest "controversy", but he certainly doesnt have a monopoly on it around here. If everyone who complained left, there would be a lot of quiet, post-free days on here. If it doesnt involve bitchin and bickering, it gets buried...

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09-26-2007, 04:03 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWe have this same dialogue going on on two threads simultaneously. We should consolidate to one.

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09-26-2007, 04:03 PM

Posted By: jay behrensThis was a board started by collectors for collectors. Leon took and corrupted that premise of the board. You may like it here, but don't kid yourself if you don't think Leon doesn't have an agenda that he pushes and it all means more money for him if possible, at everyone's expense. Leon does what he needs to in order to maximize his profits from the board. He doesn't really care what you want if doesn't suit his goals or increase his bottom line. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat is the agenda that Leon pushes?

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09-26-2007, 04:08 PM

Posted By: pasBarry: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 04:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf you divide the total revenue this board generates by the number of hours Leon puts into it (including at 2:00 in the morning) he is earning the equivalent of a pancake chef at IHOP.

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09-26-2007, 04:13 PM

Posted By: jay behrensthat and Mastro. I know I wouldn't advertise here. May not be a good business move but then I've always let principles get in the way of the way I've run the businesses I've owned. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 04:14 PM

Posted By: pasJay if you are so contemptuous of Leon, why DO you post? EDITED TO ADD Answers own question: to express contempt for Leon. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBarry, I live comfortably on that wage. Maybe not by Leon's or anyone else's standards, but it is very comfortable by mine. I just don't get to spend a lot of money on cards. This isn't Leon's only source of income and no one forces him to spend the time here that he does. That's his choice. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 04:22 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJay- I understand you live modestly, and I respect that you have rejected material wealth to live the way you want to. In a lot of ways I am the same. But I find it impossible to believe that Leon gets rich off this board. I think the banner ads are a logical way to produce some revenue to compensate him for his time. I have no problem with it, nor do most of the other posters.

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09-26-2007, 04:23 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusI'll second that thought of Barry's. If Leon's agenda is $$$$$, he's got a lot to learn as a businessman because the amount he takes in via the banner ads in relation to the hours he puts in as moderator is hardly what I would call an efficient use of his time.

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09-26-2007, 04:26 PM

Posted By: peter chaoLeon, Try something simple like putting moderator at the bottom of your posts. From there most of us can figure out there may be some bias in your opinions. Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 04:28 PM

Posted By: jay behrensIf you look at his avatar, it says Forum Owner right under it Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 04:32 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJay, Then that should be enough of a warning to all of us that there may be some bias in his opinions. What else do you need? Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 04:37 PM

Posted By: jay behrensWhat I want is the one thing that Leon won't do, get rid of the banner ads and go back to old system of donations from the forum members. Even I'll contribute that fund. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 04:42 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat if hardly anybody donates? Maybe many would feel like that isn't something they would want to do. And how much should people donate? I don't get it- if a business is willing to purchase some advertising at a reasonable rate and get some great exposure, what's so bad about it? You've lost me.

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09-26-2007, 04:42 PM

Posted By: Rich KleinHowever calling my friends LIARS is not one of them. Regards Rich Edited to remove non-needed comment

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09-26-2007, 04:56 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJay, Relying on donations doesn't necessarily mean Net54 will get better. Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 04:58 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI think what Jay is trying to say is that the removal of the banner ads will remove the appearance of conflicts of interest.

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09-26-2007, 05:07 PM

Posted By: pasI am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here have no objection to banner ads. As far as appearance of conflict of interest goes, this is a chatboard, Leon isn't a judge or investment adviser or anyone else as to whom people would care about his bias.

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09-26-2007, 05:11 PM

Posted By: KyleLeon and I traded emails once discussing ad costs on the site. I could not believe how cheap it is. Considering the number of hits to the board per day, week and month, advertisers get a steal of a deal. If I was accumulating a massive number of items for selling on eBay at one time, I would consider buying an ad on this site because it was so cheap... and I'm the type of person who actually has coupons to use at a grocery when asked for them. I picked up a dime off the ground last week and put it in my pocket. Does Leon spend a lot of time on this board? Yes. Does the ad costs help compensate him for his time? Yes. Do we need someone to monitor the boards? Obviously, yes. Do I think Leon wishes he didn't have to "police" the boards so much? Yes. Does Leon put so much time and effort into the boards because he loves what it does for the hobby, for the relationships he's made, items he has trade/sold/bought for/from his collection (just like everyone else who uses the board)? Clearly, this is why Leon is here, yes. -Kyle

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09-26-2007, 05:20 PM

Posted By: rand brotmanWOW! what's the big friggin deal?? Jay its almost like you want to be banned..This is the # 1 Reason why Leon does not want private money..because people like you would send him 50 cents and think YOU have the right to say whatever you want to on this FREE board. Leon should 100% sell ad space, his job on here sucks! I have actually spent money (Sloate) on auctions i never visited before because of the ads. i know my purchase with Barry's auction probably paid for his annual rate. Jay some of your posts are informative, and i enjoy learning from you. Alot of your posts are sarcastic remarks with nothing of value. Please **** or get off the pot, either add something or go away!!! Leon can voice his opinion whenever he wants because this board is FREE, so whats the big deal?????

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09-26-2007, 05:21 PM

Posted By: JoannI've emailed some of these thoughts to Leon in the past, so I'm not saying anything he hasn't heard before. First, I think Leon does an absolutely fantastic job running this board, and he knows that. And please understand that what I am about to say is theoretical, and in the context of the entire history of the board, plus its future including all future moderators. It is NOT about Leon in particular, as moderator at this specific time. But the thing about the banner ads is this: What happens when the income from the ads starts to make a geniune difference in the annual household income of the moderator? To me, that is the bottom line question. See, that could become a real problem, couldn't it? When this started it was to offset costs and give Brian and Leon the little bit extra back as thanks for their time and efforts. In that spirit, all is well. But at some point, either for current moderators or future moderators, what if the revenue grew to the point that it started to really have an impact at home? How would that manifest itself on the operation of the board and to members? And keep in mind that even if ad rates are cheap now, any future moderator could probably change that and take what the market would bear. -- First and foremost, moderating content of other people's posts to eliminate anything contrary to advertisers' interests would be a certainty. An advertiser complains about a post or thread, and the moderator can't really afford to lose that advertiser. The post/thread would be edited or deleted. No doubt. -- How about the links sections? That is a great section and a helpful resource that I refer to frequently. Would links to competitors of advertisers disappear? -- How about a moderator that would not or could not pass the board on to someone new , even if it was really needed by the board, because he or she had come to depend on the income from it? -- What if a major advertiser wanted a permanent thread or area dedicated to its interests, spot ads, auction content, for sale, etc. Would they get it? If it meant the moderator would break even for the month? -- What if a major advertiser wanted a valuable and frequent poster banned for reasons totally unrelated to the board? I really do see serious downside to the process long-term. I think the reason many people don't is twofold: First, we all like Leon and appreciate the great job he is doing. Second, there hasn't been the slightest hint of any of the items above. The only thing that has even been mentioned is Leon's loyal support of a few advertisers, Mastro in particular, and honestly I don't care if Leon supports or doesn't support someone for any or no reason. It's his opinion and his business. But the second that someone else - anyone else - is prevented from stating their own opinion would be a sad day. There has been no sign of that. Personally, I don't think the banner ads make enough of a financial difference to Leon to affect his administration of the board. But what about the next person? Or the person after that? Once this board has started down this road, it is inevitable - only a matter of time - until we get to a moderator for whom the ad money really makes a difference. At that point the soul and nature of this forum will change forever, and not for the better. It will be like the CU boards with threads disappearing routinely because the poster didn't toe the party line. Sorry - but if anyone here doesn't think that will happen, I think that's pretty naive. It just doesn't seem like it because, for now, we have a board moderator that is not so beholden to the advertisers and the income that he will change the administration and tone of the forum. Joann

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09-26-2007, 05:25 PM

Posted By: Cobby33I wouldn't pay a dime to post on this Board (no offense to anyone). So if the ads keep it running, sobeit. Most everyone on here has some sort of an agenda. Those I don't like, I disregard. If anyone thinks there's a conflict of interest anywhere, take the "conflicted one's" opinions at face value and assign it the weight you think it deserves.

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09-26-2007, 05:31 PM

Posted By: pasRespectfully, your doomsday scenario seems to assume all of us (or future generations of posters) would just accept bad behavior by a moderator and blithely go on posting. You forget the power of people to bring about change in response to things they don't like. No moderator is going to be able to dictatorially impose his will on a group of intelligent people, in my opinion. They would vote with their feet, as Lenin said. EDITED TO ADD Since CU is a forum sponsored by a single company, I don't see it as really analagous.

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09-26-2007, 05:32 PM

Posted By: peter chaoKeeping the hobby "pure" is a great idea, except for the fact that the hobby hasn't been pure for a long, long time. Getting rid of banner ads doesn't even get into my top 20 for changes that need to be made in order for the hobby to be more "pure." Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 05:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBut Joann- none of what you say has happened yet. Right now everything is in balance. What might happen down the road is just speculation.

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09-26-2007, 05:33 PM

Posted By: pasPeter C., would it make your top 100? Not mine.

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09-26-2007, 05:34 PM

Posted By: Jason DuncanEven though I have a had a few minor disagreements with Leon here in the past, I think he does a pretty good job moderating. If it were not for him putting in his time this forum would not be where it is now. Also, even though I do see a little bit of power tripping at times, I think it is run really well. As far as Jay I really think he whines alot on different issues and has his own issues. I am not going to judge Jay otherwise because I have no idea what he has gone through or what dirty laundry life has given him to cause so much whimpering. From my observation I think Jay and Leon are probably both all around great guys. The fact is that things are not going to change anytime soon so drop the minor issues and move forward........and Jay, Bush is a moral upstanding individual which is more than I can say for BC. Jason

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09-26-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Mark EvansI consider Leon a friend (Hi, Leon) and, more important, a person of integrity. Having said that, I share the view that Leon should refrain from posting in controversial threads involving advertisers. I believe such a policy would make an outstanding board even better. I also respect Leon's view on this matter and look forward to catching up for a beer or two at next year's National. Mark

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09-26-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Dave HaasJay, I'm fairly new to this forum but IMO this board is like cigarettes, alcohol, porn etc, if you don't like it, don't participate. I don't get it, you sound like you want to be banned. Maybe you should hang out with Bruce. Leon is the moderator and can do as he feels fit.

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09-26-2007, 05:42 PM

Posted By: peter chaoWe've all been on the internet long enough to expect banner ads to be part of the scenery. It would only bother me if there were pop-up ads, because those ads can be a nuisance. Peter C.

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09-26-2007, 05:50 PM

Posted By: ItsOnlyGilCertainly you can all see through this smoke screen. The play is "the best defense is a good offense" The problem is not the ads, the problem is alliance with Mastro. And the cause of the problem is not Leon. The root cause of the problem is Jay acting as an agent for REA. Oh, I am sure that Mr.B. can truthfully contend that he has not yet been conmpensated. However, he is garnering prime advertising for this client with every sentence. And by maintaining the credibility pressure on the competition, almost singlehandedly, He enhances his teams posture by the minute. All we need now is the cheerleaders, the rhymes are obvious. The above represents a theoretical scenario, offered in the same spirit as that of Joanne's.

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09-26-2007, 05:57 PM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenI'm with Peter - it's part of the scenery. Frankly, I hadn't even noticed there were banner ads until all of the bitching started.

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09-26-2007, 05:58 PM

Posted By: Ted HoldenHaving been a member of the forum for a long time, but mostly as a lurker, I have finally had enough. I have refrained from becoming involved in any of the arguments before even though I had opinions. I have read the diatribes of many of you but Jay, you are the worst. Enough of your personal and political BS. This it not and never has been a matter of your right to an opinion or just putting in your 2 cents worth. It is your personal agenda to be a contrarian and poke insults at anybody that does not share your opinion. Buy yourself a soap box and go down to your city park and blabber all you want. Just get lost from here. Leon, how long are you going to take his crap. PLEASE give him the big ole' Texas Boot. Texas Ted

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09-26-2007, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenYea Jay. I think Adrian Kronhauer was actually talking about you!

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09-26-2007, 06:03 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusI'll second that thought by Peter S. If in fact a moderator becomes corrupted by the banner revenue, then Board members will have no problem noticing that and will vote with their mouses -- they'll go to another chatboard. Banner advertising revenue, due to the substantially lower member base, will then plummet and we'll be back to a moderator who moderates based on what he/she feels is right, uncontaminated by the $$$$$.

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09-26-2007, 06:05 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJason- you had my undivided attention until you said "Bush is a moral upstanding individual" at which point my eyes glazed over and you lost me completely. Are we talking about the same Bush? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (hey, might as well throw some politics into this soon to be sordid mess).

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09-26-2007, 06:08 PM

Posted By: JoannBarry - I agree it's speculation, but I do think it's highly likely. This board has a reputation and great status and momentum. It is likely to be around for a very long time. I am assuming that the board will be here after Leon leaves and even several moderators after that. At some point, it's hard not to imagine that the banner ads will come into play in a big way. We just don't see it now b/c Leon is being so reponsible about it. I think that his behavior in this situation is actually highly unusual in that we probably could not expect most people, including future mods, to do the same. I look at this as a transition time. The board, going back to fullcount days, has always had the feel of a co-op and community, with the moderator being a position of trust and not necessarily the owner in the strictest sense. With Leon being moderator, it still has that co-op kind of air to it. But with banner ads the foundation is in place for it to become less homey and more commercial. With Leon in place, we have both - ads and informal feel. I'm not sure such stewardship will be that easy to find in the future, and the ads will already be in place. And a few people have commented in this thread that have started participating in the board more recently. Comments like "this is Leon's board and he can do what he wants with it", and "Leon is the owner and he can do what he wants and you can leave if you don't like it" scare me quite a bit. Even though this is, in a technical sense, Leon's board, it has never felt like that to us and he's never acted that way (note that even the banner ads were open for discussion, and he only moved forward after the majority of the board said no problem). This board has been passed down from person to person, and the moderator is a position of trust and respect of the community - not an "owner" who can do as he pleases. Thankfully, Leon acts like it's a position of trust. We may not be so lucky next time, especially now that there will be money involved in the position. Leon took it because he loved the hobby and was willing to put the time into it. He loved it so much he'd do it for free! lol. What's not to doubt about that motive?? What will the motive of the next moderator be? J Oh - and PS, (no, not PS as in PostScript, PS as in Peter Spaeth!) I know we can vote with our feet - that is true. But as mentioned above this board has reputation and momentum that will be hard to break, and hard to get everyone moving elsewhere, especially if the change to a more commerical air is gradual. As also mentioned above, we already have newcomers saying it's Leon's board and he can do what he wants. I don't really remember people saying that a lot in the past about moderators. Maybe I missed it. I guess I'm just kind of a throwback in this sense. Freedoms in the world are often surrendered voluntarily and over time, not taken by force. Stupid analogy, but I do think of it when I hear comments like that. So voting with our feet would certainly be possible, but probably difficult to do and maybe even difficult to see when the need has arisen, exactly.

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09-26-2007, 06:10 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanHey Joann -- are you getting paid by the word? You better finish law school quickly -- you've got a bright future in law! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 06:10 PM

Posted By: pasJoann, I hear you, but I have faith in the free market.

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09-26-2007, 06:12 PM

Posted By: John SDave, Jay and Bruce hanging out together...you might want to get rights to that idea because that is one reality show that I certainly would watch.

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09-26-2007, 06:16 PM

Posted By: Joannlolol. No, Jeff. Not paid by the word. Just something I have great concern about that, for some reason, I have trouble articulating well. You mean I can get paid for doing this??? haha J

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09-26-2007, 06:20 PM

Posted By: Dave FWhat is sad is the people like skydash that come across this board looking for help and/or advice on actual related material that have to then get caught up paying attention to a bunch of raving drooling lunatics.

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09-26-2007, 06:31 PM

Posted By: leonYou know I respect your thoughts. You make good points. I have no defense against future hypothetical situations. I can only defend the history of the last 2 years I have moderated and the last year with banner ads. There are many more "what ifs", if you really think about it. We could play that game all day long......take care...

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09-26-2007, 06:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJoann- I'm not so worried about the future direction this board may take. Let's live in the present. All internet sites tend to become more commercial and allow more advertising as time goes on. I realize we are a little different, as this is not ebay but a site for the gathering and disseminating of knowledge (as well as a place for all hell to break loose). Leon has found a good balance between accepting revenue but keeping things in proper balance. Maybe the next guy will be a money grubbing pig, but there is no next guy so I'm not going to worry about it. If it became too commercial, and was rife with conflicts of interest, it might cease to exist. Or somebody else might start a new board with more emphasis on what a chatboard should be. Who knows, but who cares. Greenland might melt and sink NYC beneath the ocean before that happens, and a chatboard suddenly won't seem so important. Dave- skydash knows exactly what he is doing and I know he has had many laughs over the craziness on this board. He's a good sport and a regular guy with a sense of humor and he is well grounded. He will not let a few lunatics get in the way of his plan to sell his collection.

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09-26-2007, 06:38 PM

Posted By: JoannLeon, You don't have to defend the history of the last two years - your record and high regard on this board speaks for itself. I'm glad that we can have different views on things and not let it get in the way of a good relationship. I appreciate that. Joann

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09-26-2007, 06:39 PM

Posted By: pasSha, la, la la la, let's live for today -- the Grassroots. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-26-2007, 06:44 PM

Posted By: leonThanks....I consider you a friend too...and we can have a pleasant debate without it getting too personal. Everyone that knows me (and there are many)knows I am just a regular guy like everyone else. Not really much different....and btw, wish me luck...I have a softball game in about an hour. I love to play....best regards

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09-26-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: joeLeon, I really don't care how much money you make from advertising. But why not just post it and end the discussion. This seems to be the problem with some of the posters/lurkers. Hey it's America, make as much as you can, thats business. Myself, I am glad you have this forum for all of the collectors. As far a Mastro or any auction house, we all make our own decisions to consign or bid in these auctions. joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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09-26-2007, 06:54 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesHitting a softball is like hitting a watermelon ,your fat lard butt has an hour and a half to swing ....uh, good luck in doing that !

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09-26-2007, 07:08 PM

Posted By: jay behrensAnd conveniently Leon has ducked the major issue, the lies or truth behind what Leon made claim to me about REA/Rob Lifson. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to what these claims are if they are true instead of the lies that he initially claimed in the emails he sent me. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 07:09 PM

Posted By: leonAdvertising rates are $300 per banner on the front page per month...and $100 per month on all other pages together. I only allow up to 9 banners at a time on the front page. I give discounts for payment up front.....at the end of the first year...after all expenses and income tax...I will probably make about 15k. I wish it were more <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....take care

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09-26-2007, 07:14 PM

Posted By: leonI have to run....all I said is there are no saints in the hobby and you don't know everything there is.....I prefer to leave it at that. I might need to take the advice of several professors and lawyers and other respected board members very soon, that have sent emails this evening...I would rather you stay, believe it or not. It is getting a little old though......

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09-26-2007, 07:17 PM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenGeez Leon. The worst of all is that - making that kind of money - it obviously makes you a dirty rotten Republican.

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09-26-2007, 07:17 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesNo one has called for my vote, but no one asked for that of Ted Holden (Hi Ted!) either. I vote that persons should not be banned from this board because of their opinions. Nor should they be banned because of their style in presenting those opinions. And this applies to everyone (even those of us who exist as dual entities): "Jay, you are the worst. Enough of your personal and political BS. This it not and never has been a matter of your right to an opinion or just putting in your 2 cents worth. It is your personal agenda to be a contrarian and poke insults at anybody that does not share your opinion. Buy yourself a soap box and go down to your city park and blabber all you want. Just get lost from here. Leon, how long are you going to take his crap. PLEASE give him the big ole' Texas Boot. Texas Ted"

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09-26-2007, 07:26 PM

Posted By: Jerry RuckerLeon, Keep up the good work. I wouldn't trade the knowledge I have acquired on this forum for a years worth of banner advertising revenues.

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09-26-2007, 08:07 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJerry, after the whole Dorskind incident, you obviously didn't learn anything as evidenced by your comment. For the record, I have a nice little place on a lake here in MN. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 08:15 PM

Posted By: shane leonardLeon, I don't know what your income is for running this board, but to put up with this crap from Jay is not enough. You do a great job and a thankless one at that. Thanks for providing a place for me to come and learn each day about the greatest hobby in the world. Please don't eliminate the banner idea and depend on the guys on this board to pay. I think you have done a great job with it all. Regards, Shane Leonard

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09-26-2007, 08:18 PM

Posted By: George H. Counter"Jay, Don't come to Texas, we have enough trailers already." Jerry, not a cool post...

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09-26-2007, 08:28 PM

Posted By: anthonyhere's my two "what if's???" Q: what if jay were the moderator? A: many upon many board members would leave. Q: what if jay were to leave? A: many upon many board members would be happy. (i could ad a third but i'd get in trouble) leon, you should charge more to p*ss jay off. my personal opinion is that jay is a little jealous that he's not the moderator, leon's doing a job that 98% of us dont want...keep up the good work!

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09-26-2007, 08:35 PM

Posted By: Randy Trierweiler......how things spin out of control. Jay ASSSUMES that Leon is going to push Mastro to Skydash. Who knows what Leon was going to tell him? Jay pushes REA to Skydash. Somehow we get back to banners and Leon's income from them. A topic not broached in a long time. Things get personal, feelings get hurt. Lurkers come out for their first post to voice their opinion. Future problems years down the road get discussed. And it all started because Leon was trying to help (direct) a guy who has one of the greatest vintage card discoveries in recent times!! Man I love this board, and I bet most of you do too. It just amazes me how disfunctional we get sometimes. Remember, its about cards people. Cards. BTW, if Leon makes $15,000 a year for babysitting us, thats just over $7 an hour based on a 40 hour week. Does anybody out there really want that job? Randy

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09-26-2007, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Mikeedited to anonymity...though I agree with what was said....(leon)

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09-26-2007, 08:46 PM

Posted By: BobLeon- Everyone has had their say, how about considering locking this thread? tbob

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09-26-2007, 08:49 PM

Posted By: joeLeon, thanks for the info on the advertising fees. You are certainly not getting rich with these fees. Personally I would not like to see Jay banned from the board. He brings good information to the board sometimes.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> It seems that Jay and Leon might have had problems in the past and we don't know all the details. That seems pretty normal, we are all human. Someday they may or may not resolve these issues, who knows. Actually we don't have to know. These posting come up once and a while, but most of the time information about cards are the headliners. As far as Mastro is concerned, not sure what happened. I know Lifson and Mastro worked with each other in the past and do not know if there are hard feelings. If there are, it's not our business anyway. Joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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09-26-2007, 08:55 PM

Posted By: George H. CounterJay said: "the lies or truth behind what Leon made claim to me about REA/Rob Lifson." Jay, why don't post the Lifson story?

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09-26-2007, 09:01 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittWIKIPEDIA...... Details on the internet troll....... "Trolls can be existing members of a community that rarely post and often contribute no useful information to the thread, but instead make argumentative posts in an attempt to discredit another person, concentrating almost exclusively on facts irrelevant to the point of the conversation, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others. The key element under attack by a troll is known only to the troll."

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09-26-2007, 10:04 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzThanks for the info, Leon, but I have a question about the math. Seems to me that $300/banner ad per month times 9 ads per month earns a gross of more than $32K per year, and that's just front page ads. Assuming the other ads bring more, I gotta believe you're grossing more than $30K per/yr. on banner advertising, even allowing for cash up front discounts. Where I come from it is impolite to ask what other people make, and I don't care to know your personal business, but since the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, I do believe it is fair game to at least raise eyebrows as to impartiality under these circumstances. Count me as one who does not consider $30K to be chump change. I mean no offense and take no shot at your impartiality here, but the question seems to me to be a fair one.

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09-26-2007, 10:12 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGood Lord, he said after taxes and expenses. Where I come from getting abused by people hiding behind a keyboard for 15K a year is grounds for being institutionalized.

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09-26-2007, 10:15 PM

Posted By: Jim VBTodd, I don't mean to answer for Leon, but your number assumes that the ads are close to a sell out. I do not think that was the case in the last year. You also aren't factoring in taxes. Taxes alone will take your $30,000 down to $20,000. Anybody who thinks Leon is doing this for the money is dreaming.

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09-26-2007, 10:17 PM

Posted By: KyleHere's our other options. Nothing against them, I read PSA's all the time, but I'll take Net54 for free, every day, thank you very much. psa message board (lots of modern stuff) board collectors society(rarely gets posts) sportscardforum.com(1960s and 1970s is vintage here) trading central.com(no thank you) Many thanks to not only Leon, but the other moderators. Maybe Leon and the moderators should decide to abolish the ads, and charge a user fee for the message boards. Would that everyone happy? How can the entrepreneurial aspects of the hobby be so frowned upon. Every other website you visit has ads on it, and people who make their careers selling the ads, fixing glitches in the website. Look at CNN, ESPN, MLB.com. If the moderators really want to annoy us, they could make the ads pop-up ads. edited links due to rules

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09-26-2007, 10:19 PM

Posted By: DarrenI just learned of these boards about a month ago. I have found answers to several of my questions and also purchased a few cards from members. After reading all the BS and bickering over the last 2 days, I think I will go away and let you children have at it. Leon, if I were you, I would boot a few of these pricks.

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09-26-2007, 10:25 PM

Posted By: jay behrensMike Ocards, if you want to see the definition of childish, look at your first line and take your own advice. Obviously, a lot of people that seem to think my behaviour is borish don't act any better themselves. Leon, what happened to the rule against personal attacks? Seems that the lurkers think it is OK as long as they are on your side and think they are safe from punishment. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-26-2007, 10:57 PM

Posted By: leonIt's very difficult to protect you right about now. However, to protect the integrity of the board, everyone needs to have their full name by their post in this thread or be well known. Anyone not known needs to edit their responses, already posted in this thread, or put their name out here. In a little while (if I am still awake) I will need to edit out the comments if they aren't, it's only fair. I absolutely appreciate all of the support from the board and hope those that are only speaking their mind WILL put their names out here. Either way thanks so much. best regards Todd S- email me privately if you want to and I will tell you the expenses more in detail. Gross is a tad above 30k......I wish a business got to keep gross as all profit.... I could keep more revenue brought in but I can explain better privately...

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09-27-2007, 12:51 AM

Posted By: Adam"This board could have been run just as effectively with donations from the people here on the forum and we wouldn't even be having half of these discussions." So why doesn't Leon just tell Jay how much money it takes to run the board annually and why doesn't Jay just pay that amount?

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09-27-2007, 04:13 AM

Posted By: jay behrensIt's not about how much money is made. It's where the money comes from. Leon, you can't have a rule stating there will be no personal attacks and then let them slide when things get heated. Of all the board rules, this probably the one that you do not enforce at all, so why have it if you aren't going to enforce it? Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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09-27-2007, 04:44 AM

Posted By: Mark TurnerWhat Jay is saying is....there was a time when the board had NO ads and did have a spot for donations. That way no one could say the Moderator was playing favorites. What gets me is Kyle just posted a bunch of message boards a few posts up. When Scott Elkins posted about the Aimoo board it was taken down because Leon did not want it up there. Which is fine but you can't single out certain message boards based on the person running them. I am a member of both and enjoy both, there is nothing wrong with that.

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09-27-2007, 04:50 AM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanJay, so it's OK for you to personally attack Leon, but when someone attacks you then it is not OK? Then it is Leon's fault because he didn't stop it? We have all read your opinions of Leon, banner ads, and Mastro countless times. You have made your point, now it is time to move on. My personal opinions- Leon - great job! Banner Ads - I like them. One click and I can access current auctions and advertisers websites. Mastro - I have never dealt with them, and I don't plan on dealing with them based on their recent reputation. Rick

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09-27-2007, 04:58 AM

Posted By: Howard RosenIn an earlier post someone wrote that Jay is a "contrarian". I agree. My dad is the same way...he loves to debate so he throws out unpopular ideas to get things going. This may not be Jay's intention but but it is what happens nevertheless. He can also be obnoxious and I think he realizes this. This being said, I like to read Jay's posts. When he writes about cards he is informative and when he makes posts that he knows others won't like he gets a lively debate going. I think it would be a mistake to ban him and to Leon's credit he has resisted that obvious temptation. Leon seems to do a great job as moderator but if he is taking advertising $$$ from auction houses he should avoid recommending (or appearing to recommend) one or the other publicly. A simple solution would be to send a private e-mail or to dispense the advice through a third party (another forum member). Howard

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09-27-2007, 06:13 AM

Posted By: leonlSo you are saying I am childish and Hitlerish as I make about 15k a yr from this? I hope you weren't pointing your finger this way...but if you are please elaborate a little more....thanks deleted personal remarks from "keith"...he won't be playing anymore

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09-27-2007, 06:17 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCThese threads are getting really annoying... Leon- you seem to be an intellegent person, why do you feed into these comments? Let it roll off your shoulder...

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09-27-2007, 06:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateKeith- comparing anyone to Hitler is a pretty strong statement, and absolutely uncalled for. I would not take something like that lightly. I don't know who you are but I request you apologize to Leon and retract that statement. It doesn't not belong on this board or anywhere.

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09-27-2007, 06:23 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanKeith, I'm not sure which is more offensive: your Hitler reference or your inability to spell or use proper grammar. I'm going to vote for a tie.

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09-27-2007, 06:26 AM

Posted By: leonlI really don't care to elaborate anymore as we have had this debate several times but let me say a few more things..... 1. Mark T- you are right and I edited out links....though at this point it would probably be better to ban Jay, go with the overwhelming majority of the opinion of the board (read this thread), and be done with him. You would if you were me and he attacked you the way he has attacked me. 2. As far as being in advertisers threads....Mostly it's when one (Mastro) gets unfounded attacks and I ask for more proof. There hasn't ever been any, though I understand there could be investigations going on. At any rate I don't think I need to sit idly by why people get convicted without a trial. Just my opinion and as most intelligent people say "take it with a grain of salt". 3. Jay- personal attacks aren't allowed. Why do you keep attacking me personally? You should even say that YOU know you should be banned for what you have done. You are very hypocritical though. All you see is someone making a buck and then you rallying around the "oh woe is me, I am poor, see how happy I am, and how miserable I can make life on this board for Leon"....You are truly pathetic. You add very little to this board and if I do decide to ban you I will sleep better at night knowing I have rid the board of an infection. You are truly bad for this board, imo. A pathetic individual for all to see... I am sure I will come back and add a bit to this but those are some thoughts for now....stay tuned...

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09-27-2007, 06:43 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittJay does (or did....and still COULD) make valuable posts but the VAST majority of all the posts he's made since the ads went up (and even immediately before) were and are negative attacks on Leon and the whole concept and execution of the ads. The ads happened and they aren't going away. The personal crusade is mildly admirable, but I've always heard the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. The results are the same. Leon's still here and so are the ads. This stuff goes in cycles and I'm sure you could chart it similarly to charting a stock. We get 2-3 months of peaceful, beneficial discussion, then the Mastro thread or the Banner Ads thread or whatever, and all Hell breaks out for a couple days. People who don't normally post--positive or negative--pop out of the woodwork, and then after it dies down, then shrink back to lurk. And if you're worried about personal attacks, get out the mirror.....a lot are coming from your way........