SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ? [Archive]

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06-05-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWe are all familiar with the scarcest T206 card....the "Slow Joe"....Doyle N.Y. Nat'l. But, how many T206er's are aware that there is another variation of the regular Joe Doyle card ? In the close-up scan here of the Joe Doyle card, is seen a printer's mark just to the right of the dot following the "Y" (pointer identifies this mark). However minor this mark may appear, it exactly lines up with the start of the "N" in the very scarce "Nat'l" variation. It very slightly drops below the line of the "Doyle, N.Y." lettering, as does the letter "N" in the word "Nat'l" in the scarce variation. Furthermore, this mark is seldom seen. When it is, it has been my experience that the Doyle cards (that I've seen it on) have Piedmont 350 backs. I have yet to see this mark on Doyle cards with the Sweet Cap & Sovereign 350, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, or Tolstoi backs. And, of course, the Doyle "Nat'l" only exists with a Piedmont 350 back. So, is this a "hint" of the "Nat'l" printing ? Or, only a remnant mark of the removal of the word "Nat'l" ? I am curious what your opinions are of this seldom seen tiny mark ? So, let's do a SURVEY on this to see if my observation is correct, that this strange mark appears ONLY on Piedmont 350 Joe Doyle's. If I have tweeked your interest, check-out your Joe Doyle cards closely and post your inputs here..... and, please identify the back of your card. Consider this, if my speculation here is correct....this card then represents a "poor man's abbreviated" example of a Joe Doyle error card. Thanks for your interest, and let's get your responses. TED Z <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/aadoylexmk.jpg"> .................................................. ....../\............ <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/cjoedoylenatl.jpg">

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06-05-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: JohnTed, Good stuff nice catch, I’ve known about this one for a long time as well. I even recently brought this up at our recent dinner to Mike & Dar, I wish you had made it we could have discussed it in more detail. I caught it because I guess I was lucky enough to have one in my collection already. I was looking at the card and saw the spot I assumed for awhile that all Doyle’s had the mark. But after adding a few more I noticed they did not. I started looking for them, and now have 2 and yes both are Piedmont 350 backed cards. About as close as I’ll get to a Doyle in the near future I guess. It would be interesting to see how many pop up on here….perhaps it’s harder than the Doyle…LOL. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/websize/doyle1.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/websize/doyle2.jpg">

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06-05-2007, 02:43 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCjohn- i thought of you right away when ted posted this... very cool guys, you could be onto something. John- when the heck are you making it back up to NYC? we really tore it up nice!

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06-05-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: JohnMike, I just emailed you, we should get together again it was a lot of fun! Ted, lets call it the Partial “N” Doyle….lets also start the bidding at say around 10k…….

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06-05-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: robMine is just the regular old variety...it is, I believe, the only graded Tolstoi back by SGC however, thats gotta be worth something!

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06-05-2007, 02:59 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCjohn- i just responded...thanks. ted- not to "hi-jack" your thread, but rumor has it that you're coming to the next NYC Dinner, is this true?

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06-05-2007, 03:22 PM

Posted By: T206Collector<a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28530&usetid=2351" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28530&usetid=2351</a> I'll have to check at home to see if it isn't just a spot of tobacco staining, but it looks from a distance like the ones above.

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06-05-2007, 03:42 PM

Posted By: DylanMy money is on these being a whole lot easier to find then the full variation

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06-05-2007, 03:44 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCPaul- i had both images up (yours & ted's)...looks like the exact same "mark", in the same location.

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06-05-2007, 03:48 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedWell, there are only 10 (or less) confirmed Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l cards. So, I think between Brian W, John W, and I....we already have seen more of these "printer's mark" variations than 10.

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06-05-2007, 03:51 PM

Posted By: JohnGeeeee...you think so Dylan......

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06-05-2007, 03:57 PM

Posted By: ScottIngoldI was waiting for that to come. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-05-2007, 04:12 PM

Posted By: leonParty foul.....go to the time out corner.....No need to be condescending now ....in person you could do it and we could take a chug of beer and laugh about it...but behind a keyboard we don't get the same non-verbal feedback. Be nice.....best regards

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06-05-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: Joe D.And I think we can safely say those cards with the dot - were almost "Nat'l"s The printer polished out that area on the plate (instead of making a new one) and left some of the 'N' there. I'm not sure how long plates lasted back then, how long the press runs were (or if plates were held for more than one run).... so its hard to say how tough these would be to find. But to me, the cool part is that the card was almost a Natl - and could very well have been part of the same press run as the Natl cards.

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06-05-2007, 04:17 PM

Posted By: JohnGimme break Leon…really think that was that harsh??? I mean it was a pretty obvious statement besides I’ve seen nastier than that fly around here as of late. But I’ll try to be a bit more sugar and honey from here on out I guess. John

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06-05-2007, 04:26 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi John, It wasn't that bad.... But you should stick to pictures anyway, as you are the master. Be well Brian PS My imagination is running wild wondering what you are going to post next.

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06-05-2007, 04:52 PM

Posted By: leonNo, it wasn't that harsh by this board's standards but still.....a little sugar never hurt......(no, I don't want "sugars" from you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) later....

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06-05-2007, 05:24 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldsadly, mine is a sweet cap, so no cigar. interesting work,Trex et al all the best barry

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06-05-2007, 05:48 PM

Posted By: bobSweet Cap 350, no extra dot.

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06-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Posted By: Martin NealHi Ted, Mine has got the dot, but has a Polar Bear back. Martin

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06-05-2007, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Scot Reader From Paul and Martin, it seems that the stray mark appears on Piedmont 350 and Polar Bear. This is counterintuitive to me, since it suggests Polar Bear was early in the 350-only print run. The reason this is counterintuitive is that Demmitt (New York) and O'Hara (New York) appear with all of the 350-only backs except Polar Bear, whereas Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) appear only with Polar Bear--suggesting that Polar Bear was printed near the end of the 350-only print run.

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06-05-2007, 07:40 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedSCOT After the 2nd PB input came in I started thinking along the same lines you just stated. I guess we have to give this scenario some more thought in order to figure out what we are really seeing here with this variation. 1st day Survey Results T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........6..........0 Sweet Cap 350......0..........2 Polar Bear.............2..........0 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill Sovereign 350 EPDG Come on all you serious T206er's, this is new and interesting stuff, let's get some more inputs.

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06-05-2007, 08:25 PM

Posted By: ZinnPiedmont 350. No Mark. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181010287.JPG">

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06-05-2007, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Ray PiskadloI have a Piedmont 350, Factory 25, 2nd District VA with no mark! Scan coming later!

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06-05-2007, 08:44 PM

Posted By: MattPiedmont 350 - no mark.

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06-05-2007, 09:34 PM

Posted By: JimBPiedmont 350 No mark

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06-05-2007, 10:16 PM

Posted By: Mike Ellisone Sovereign, one Piedmont. Both without the mark. Mike

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06-06-2007, 12:23 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks....ZINN, RAY, MATT, JIM B amd MIKE for your inputs. We finally have some Piedmont 350's without the printer's mark. TED Z

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06-06-2007, 12:24 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED Survey T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........6..........7 Sweet Cap 350......0..........2 Polar Bear.............2..........2 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................0..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........1 EPDG We are just getting started, this is new and interesting stuff. Show or tell us about your Joe Doyle ? Edited to add 4 inputs emailed from "readers" of Net54.

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06-06-2007, 06:17 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedWe don't have enough information at this point on this Mark/No-Mark phenomena. We know that Demmitt (NY) does not exist with a Polar Bear and Sovereign 350 backs. In fact he exists with only 4 different T-brands. And, from what we have seen here (so far) with the Joe Doyle cards, we have to conclude that there was an early press run of Polar Bears backs (on limited level of Subjects) in 1910 and then a later press run that year on a larger scale of Subjects. TED Z

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06-06-2007, 06:38 AM

Posted By: Scot ReaderTed, I am thinking along similar lines, i.e., early partial Piedmont/Polar Bear print in 350-only. While not statistically significant, I think it is interesting that in this small sample about half of the Piedmonts and half of the Polar Bears have the stray mark. Scot

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06-06-2007, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensSweet Cap, no mark here. This card to me is the most overvalued card in the set, these commons surpass HOFer prices most of the time. Lee

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06-06-2007, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Sean BHSweet Cap no mark for me. Sean BH

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06-06-2007, 08:53 AM

Posted By: DrewHi Ted Two Doyles Sweet Cap 350 and Polar Bear. No mark. Drew

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06-06-2007, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED Survey 6/5/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........6..........8 Sweet Cap 350......0..........5 Polar Bear.............2..........3 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................0..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........1 EPDG We need more inputs, guys and gals. We are looking for some kind of pattern in order to better under- stand this mysterious "printer's mark". So far it has revealed to us that there had to be two Polar Bear press runs in 1910. That is assuming that this "printer's mark" is correlated to the "Nat'l" caption printed on the 1st run Joe Doyle cards.

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06-06-2007, 02:20 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks LEE, SEAN and DREW for your inputs. They have been tallied on the updated survey. Also, I have received via email...2 more Piedmont 350 inputs with No Mark. These and any additional ones will be tallied in tomorrow's updated survey. This brings the total to only 24 Joe Doyle cards. I realize this card is tough to find; but, there has to be more Joe Doyle cards out there in Net54 members' T206 collections.....so, tell us about your's ?

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06-06-2007, 02:29 PM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldTed, while I've sold my Doyle and don't remember any mark or not, this recent auction for a SC 350 had no mark: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T-206-Card-143b-Joe-Doyle-New-York_W0QQitemZ220114563858QQihZ012QQcategoryZ86840 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T-206-Card-143b-Joe-Doyle-New-York_W0QQitemZ220114563858QQihZ012QQcategoryZ86840 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a> This one with a PB had no mark: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Joe-Doyle-Over-PSA-3-7301_W0QQitemZ190116414755QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31718 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Joe-Doyle-Over-PSA-3-7301_W0QQitemZ190116414755QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31718 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a> and this one on the LOC site with a SC 350 back has no mark: <img src="http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/bbc/0700/0780&topImages=0785fr.jpg&topLinks=0785fu.tif&botImages=0785bt.gif&botLinks=0785br.jpg">,0785bu.tif&displayProfile=2&dir=ammem&itemLink=D?bbcards:4:./temp/~ammem_NERg:

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06-06-2007, 02:44 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCTed- Levi was selling one on eBay recently (didn't sell), it was a PSA 3, Polar Bear back, No Mark.

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06-06-2007, 07:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks JON and MIKE for the inputs. Mike Jon beat you to Levi's PB Doyle in his 2nd link.....I don't want to count the same card twice in this survey. TED Z

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06-06-2007, 07:06 PM

Posted By: ZinnDon't count Jon's first link either. Sean BH was the winner and he has posted his.

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06-06-2007, 07:10 PM

Posted By: ockdaypiedmont 350...no mark

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06-06-2007, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Mike ErnstSweet Cap--no dot.

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06-06-2007, 08:33 PM

Posted By: Doyle dotI have the Piedmont 350 Doyle, but no dot. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181097141.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181097165.JPG">

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06-06-2007, 09:06 PM

Posted By: Scott MosleyP-350 without the mark here. Scott

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06-06-2007, 11:06 PM

Posted By: DavidMy Polar Bear Doyle has no mark but on a side note is missing most of the right side of the Y in N.Y.

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06-07-2007, 01:05 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedOCKDAY, MIKE, T206guy, SCOTT M, DAVID Thanks for your inputs and they will be tallied on today's upgraded survey. TED Z

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06-07-2007, 02:27 PM

Posted By: LeeMy Doyle has the dot

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06-07-2007, 04:46 PM

Posted By: Art M.Hi Ted, Here is the information from my T206 Doyle, hands above cards: Piedmont 350 - no mark Sweet Caporal 350 - no mark Interesting thread. Art

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06-07-2007, 06:50 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED Survey 6/6/07 to reflect 7 member's recent inputs and 2 emailed to me. T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........6.........12 Sweet Cap 350......0.........10 Polar Bear.............2..........6 Tolstoi..................0.........1 Old Mill..................0.........1 Sovereign 350........0..........1 EPDG Well, the Joe Doyle cards with this mysterious "printer's mark" are being outnumbered by the No-Mark Joe Doyle's by a factor of 4 to 1. With more of the Doyle's reported, I expect this ratio to get higher. The initial 6 Joe Doyle's reported with this MARK were due to I, and others, who had discreetly acquired them. With 39 cards reported, we are starting to approach a true random sample and eventually we will have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle.."wannabe error cards".. with this "printer's- mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we haven't gotten to 1st base yet. T-Rex TED

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06-07-2007, 08:01 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks for the input....but, it's also important for you to tell me what back your Joe Doyle has ? Without the back info, I don't where to record your input. Thanks, TED Z

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06-07-2007, 09:30 PM

Posted By: LeeTed, I'm not sure, but I think it is a Piedmont 350....I currently don't have the card in my possession, but I will check it soon to see. Leave me off the list until then I guess. Best, Lee

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06-08-2007, 12:15 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI have a question for you. and I can't find your email....... Can you please Email me at...... tedzan11@comcast.net Thanks, TED Z

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06-08-2007, 05:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFour new inputs from "readers" of Net54.....How about some more inputs from "posting" members ? I know there's more of these Joe Doyle cards out there. T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........6.........12 Sweet Cap 350......0.........12 Polar Bear.............2..........8 Tolstoi..................0.........1 Old Mill..................0.........1 Sovereign 350........0..........1 EPDG Well, the Joe Doyle cards with this mysterious "printer's mark" are being outnumbered by the No-Mark Doyle's by a factor of 4.4 to 1. With more of the Doyle's reported, I expect this ratio to get higher. The initial 6 Joe Doyle's reported with this MARK were due to I, and others, who had discreetly acquired them. With 43 cards reported, we are starting to approach a true random sample and eventually we will have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we haven't gotten to 1st base yet, we are 80 ft. down the line. Incidently, does anyone have a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ? I listed it on this survey only because the POP report says it exists. T-Rex TED

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06-09-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedSince yesterday, I've received, via emails, 5 more inputs to this survey. Four "no-mark" cards and one card with the "printer's mark". That brings the total to 48 responses....far short of what was expected from the vast number of T206 collectors on Net54. In fact, a good number of responses were from "readers" who don't normally post. Actually, that raises an interesting question.....how many members on Net54 have really sizeable T206 collections ? T-Rex TED

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06-09-2007, 05:51 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, This card sold on EBAY lat month,and I think it's your first dot with a SW CAP back. Have a nice weekend Brian <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/1fe1_3.jpg">

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06-09-2007, 07:21 PM

Posted By: DaveSweet Caporal 350 Factory 25... no mark. Chalk another one up.

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06-09-2007, 10:50 PM

Posted By: BettyPolar Bear Back No extra Dot

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06-09-2007, 11:24 PM

Posted By: RonMy Doyle has no dot and is pied 350 factory 25 Regards, Ron <img src="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o105/rsst206/front.jpg"> <img src="http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o105/rsst206/meyers.jpg">

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06-10-2007, 08:22 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks.....BETTY, BRIAN W, DAVE, RON and "readers" for your inputs. UPDATED....6/9/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........15 Sweet Cap 350......1.........14 Polar Bear.............2.........10 Tolstoi..................0.........1 Old Mill..................0.........1 Sovereign 350........0..........1 EPDG....................0..........0 ____________________________ Totals.................10.........42 With 52 cards reported, we are short of a reasonable random sample....I would like to see an additional 50 more inputs of this card. Then I'll be more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we have just slid into 2nd base. So, we still have a long way to go to score a run. Anyone out there...... Do you have, or have seen, a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ? ? I listed the EPDG back on this survey; only, because the POP report says it exists. T-Rex TED

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06-11-2007, 07:21 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted"Slow Joe" started pitching for the Highlanders in 1906. He wasn't a big guy as far as pitcher's go. He had a relatively, short career. His Major Lge. career ended in 1910 in which he only pitched 8 games. These were split between NY (American) and Cincinnati....his career W-L record is 22-21; however, he had a very respectable 2.85 ERA and completed 60% of his games. His Highlander teamates gave him the nickname of "Slow Joe" because he was very deliberate in his pitching style and he insisted that he should be allowed 8-game intervals between starts. Life is quite interesting....how many of us would remember Joe Doyle....if it wasn't for an otherwise, unknown simple mistake by the T206 designers that was discovered 75 years later. Now, Joe Doyle is portrayed on one of the most sought after BB cards in the hobby. TRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ? TED Z

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06-11-2007, 07:33 PM

Posted By: Zinn <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181528567.JPG">

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06-12-2007, 07:22 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedExcellent....thanks for showing your 1906 Highlanders card. This card would certainly qualify as Joe Doyle's 1st card. Now, does anyone else have any other type of card portraying Joe Doyle ? TED Z

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06-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedTwo more Joe Doyle cards without the printer's mark. A Piedmont 350 and a Sweet Caporal 350.

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06-14-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis<img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ajoedoylesc.jpg"> <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ajoedoylep350.jpg">

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06-14-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED....6/13/07.....upon receiving 4 more inputs. T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........17 Sweet Cap 350......1.........16 Polar Bear.............2.........10 Tolstoi..................0.........1 Old Mill..................0.........1 Sovereign 350........0..........1 EPDG....................0..........0 ____________________________ Totals.................10.........46 With 56 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample....I would like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then I will be more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we have just rounded 2nd base on our way to 3rd. So, we still have a way to go to score a run. TED Z

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06-14-2007, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Joe PTRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ? TED Z ------------------------- * * Rose set ........ also an error.

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06-14-2007, 03:23 PM

Posted By: ZinnJoe P. is indeed correct. It also uses the same picture as the 1906 Sporting Life postcard. BZ

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06-14-2007, 07:10 PM

Posted By: LeeTed, My doyle is a sweet caporal 350 with the mark...finally got it in y hands today to look at it! Lee

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06-16-2007, 06:01 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedDo we have a scan of this Joe Doyle card ? I've never seen it, and I thought I had checked-out all Slow Joe's cards (as few as there are). Thanks, TED Z

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06-16-2007, 06:11 AM

Posted By: ZinnTed: A board member does own the card and has posted it before. If he/she does not by this evening I'll post a scan.

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06-16-2007, 08:30 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezTed, when you brought the Slow Joe Doyle trivia question up, I thought you knew about it? Then I remembered, you're a Bowmens man, and a damn good one too. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Best regards. Joe

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06-16-2007, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJoe....I'm the first one to admit I don't know everything.....that's why I asked the Trivia "Q"..... I wanted to know how many different Joe Doyle cards are out there.....I haven't seen too many. Yeh, they tell me I'm the "Bowman-Man"......but, all these years I've been collectingeverything else under the sun, also. But, look out Joe.....to quote Satchel Paige...."Don't look behind you, you don't know who might be gaining on you". TED Z

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06-16-2007, 02:48 PM

Posted By: Zinn<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940496.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940515.JPG">

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06-16-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezThanks for the scan. Joe P.

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06-16-2007, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez"Joe....I'm the first one to admit I don't know everything.....that's why I asked the Trivia "Q"..... I wanted to know how many different Joe Doyle cards are out there.....I haven't seen too many." * * Nice try Ted, but this is how you stated it. "TRIVIA quiz for tonite.....Can anyone name another BB card set that Joe Doyle is portrayed in ?" TED Z -------------------- A TRIVIA QUIZ is one thing, a question is another. Are you trying to deny what you wrote? Ted, your ego is getting in your way, and you're setting yourself up to be corrected. If you quit the BS, you wouldn't be corrected. Ted, it's hard to follow the Bowman act, you had that one on a higher level, and I applaud you. Joe P.

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06-16-2007, 08:37 PM

Posted By: leonAfter speaking with you on the phone the other day I truly do not think you intentionally try to piss anyone off....but you do sometimes. So do I but that's another story for another thread.... I doubt Ted is trying to say he didn't say anything he said (hey, was that double speak?) but was merely asking a question. I know Ted can speak up for himself but just thought I would interject this as I do believe you are not a bad guy....I also know you don't mince words and we can all handle that....but sometimes when things are written on the board they are out there and can be taken worse than they were really meant. I know you meant no harm, did you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> take care all....

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06-16-2007, 10:13 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED....6/15/07.....upon receiving 5 more inputs. T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........19 Sweet Cap 350......2.........18 Polar Bear.............2.........10 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................0..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........0 ____________________________ Totals.................11..........51 With 61 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". The No-Mark to Mark ratio = 4.63 to 1 So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are half way between 2nd and 3rd base....so, we still have a way to go to score a run. Thanks for looking thru your T206 cards, TED Z

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06-16-2007, 10:45 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliHi Ted: No mark on my Doyle, Sweet Cap 350 back. -Al

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06-17-2007, 04:27 AM

Posted By: DylanWow Joe... thats exactly what I (assume others?) get tired of on the board, people that want to focus on semantics and pick fights instead of focusing on the friggin baseball cards

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06-18-2007, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedAL C Thanks for you input....when I get some more responses I'll tally them up. TED Z

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06-18-2007, 04:23 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedBeautiful card of Slow Joe.....or is it ? Zinn......are we sure this picture is not that of Larry Doyle ? TED Z

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06-18-2007, 07:20 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedOn 2nd thought......the ROSE Co. postcards of 1908-09 in the Standard Catalog list your card as Larry Doyle. And, the Rose picture of Doyle looks a lot like your 1906 Highlanders pix of Joe Doyle. Anyhow....here is my E95 card of Larry Doyle and it too bears a close resemblance to the pix on the Rose card. So, do we have a mix-up of faces here, or what ? This Doyle mystery is becoming even more intriguing every day. They were confused 99 years ago; and, we are still confused today. Wait a minute.....perhaps, Joe and Larry were identical TWINS.....ha ! TED Z <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/e95doylelarry.jpg">

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06-18-2007, 07:58 PM

Posted By: ZinnIf you start with the premise that the 1906 Sporting Life PC, New York American League, pictures Joe Doyle then the Rose PC likewise pictures Joe Doyle irrespective of the fact that it is listed New York National League. Since Joe was a pitcher and is so designated on the Sporting Life PC the picture HAS to be Joe. Larry was not a pitcher. The fact that it appears that it is Joe Doyle on the Rose PC was first brought to our attention by Joe P. He is of the opinion, as am I, that the Rose PC is another "error" card in that it pictures the incorrect Doyle. I don't think the E95 Doyle resembles Joe. JMO Zinn <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940496.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940515.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182132531.JPG">

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06-18-2007, 08:32 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedWell, there is one starting point we are sure of.....and that is the 1906 p/c indeed depicts Joe Doyle.....as, Larry Doyle didn't start playing in the Majors till 1907. Given that premise, I fully agree with you that the Rose p/c picture is Joe Doyle, instead of the intended Larry Doyle. So, by some strange coincidence did this "mix-up" lead to the confusion by the T206 designers when they initially identified their Joe Doyle card with "N.Y. Nat'l" ? These Joe/Larry "Doyle mysteries/mix-ups" are really getting convoluted ! ? TED Z

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06-19-2007, 10:20 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedOK, I've listed here the 4 (only ?) cards depicting Joe Doyle..... 1906 Sporting Life (Highlanders) postcard 1908-1909 ROSE Co. postcard (erroneously identified as "New York N.L.") 1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. Nat'l (error...."Nat'l")....Piedmont 350 (only back) 1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. (Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350, Sovereign 350, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi) Are ther any more BB cards depicting Joe Doyle ? ? TED Z

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06-19-2007, 10:36 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCTed- you forgot the now famous "Ted Z Mark" error card. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-19-2007, 11:24 AM

Posted By: ZinnI think that covers it. I'm not aware of any others. Zinn

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06-20-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedAn email, two Joe Doyle's on Ebay, and Al's input brings the total responses to 65. Three NO-MARK cards and an interesting OLD MILL with the MARK. We are approx. 2/3 rds. the way to 100 inputs....So, how about it, you avid T206er's.... let's get some more inputs ? Thanks, TED Z

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06-20-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedI deliberately left out the "Ted Z Mark"..Joe Doyle from this list, as it really is not a distinct issue. I like how JOE D (our resident printer) summed it up on an early post here......when they polished off the "Nat'l" lettering on the plate, they didn't do a clean job of it the 1st time. Mike....I have put my Piedmont 350 Joe Doyle (with the MARK) in my All-PIEDMONT set album..... in the spot that I had reserved for the real Joe Doyle error. I look at this card as a "poor-man's - wannabe".....Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l.....as it's the closest that I ever expect to get to owning the Joe Doyle error. And, if anyone else chooses to view this card as such....be sure you have a Piedmont 350. TED Z

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06-20-2007, 06:38 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedOne more SC 350 with NO MARK.

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06-20-2007, 06:40 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......6/19/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........21 Sweet Cap 350......2.........19 Polar Bear.............2.........10 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........0 ____________________________ Totals.................12..........54 With 66 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are approaching 3rd base....so, we still have a way to go to score a run. Thanks for looking thru your T206 cards, TED Z

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06-21-2007, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezAs far as the card is concerned, the pressmen were on target. It's a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) Joe Doyle. A beautiful pastel portait of Joe. At the bottom of the card you'll find: Doyle, Cincinnati Nationals Now here's the kicker. I pulled out a 1997 SCD Catalog to double check it. I found it. It was listed under JIM DOYLE. ROTFLMAO ... some people don't get no respect. I got this card from Macrae many years ago. Unfortunately my infamous scanner is yet to be hooked up. What good is talking about cards, if you can't show them. If anyone has a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) JIM DOYLE, feel free to post it. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> jOE

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06-21-2007, 06:50 PM

Posted By: ZinnIt's our boy Joe!!! (pic courtesy of VCP) <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182386970.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940496.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940515.JPG">

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06-21-2007, 07:51 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezYou know ... the more I look at all those Joe Doyle's, the more he looks like Larry. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Stay well. jOE

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06-22-2007, 06:24 AM

Posted By: judson hamlinTed - chalk me up for a Piedmont 350 with no mark. I know that there are some EPdG's out there-- somewhere...

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06-22-2007, 07:45 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks for your input, it will be tallied....once I get a few more responses. TED Z

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06-22-2007, 07:49 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThis Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error. Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910...... or, were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ? What's your guess ? This is really amazing..FOUR chances to get it right.....the Rose p/c.....the initial T206 of Joe Doyle (Nat'l); and, the "corrected" (omitting the League affiliation).....and, this M116 card depicting him (but, most likely intended to portray Jim Doyle).......and, all four times they "screwed-up" ! Judd Bruce "Slow Joe" Doyle just "doesn't get any respect".....way before Rodney Dangerfield ever coined that expression. TED Z

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06-22-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez"This Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error. Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910...... or, were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ? What's your guess ?" * * First of all, Clark Griffith, Joe Doyle's original manager back in 1906, took a shot with Joe's arm when he brought him over to the Reds in 1910. 1910 - two teams NY A (3G 0-2) CIN N (5G 0-0) but he was an established pitcher since 1906. Whereas Jim Doyle 3B, arrived to the majors at the age of 29 in 1910. He appeared in 7 games, 13 AB, 2 H. ... that's for 1910 in CINCY. Hans Lobert was the Reds regular 3B, and the M116 already had an image of the Reds third baseman. In 1911, Jim Doyle played for the Chicago Cubs. He appeared in 130 games, 472 AB, 133 H ... for 1911 CHI N. The poor guy passed on in 1912. As for the pressmen that worked on the Joe Doyle M116 Sporting Life. They nailed that one dead center on the target. No Mistake - No Mix - Up - No MYSTERY. The laffer was the innocent mistake in the 1997 SCD. Listing the M116 Joe Doyle card as JIM DOYLE. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-22-2007, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJOE Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle". Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ? It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting Life (M116) designers got them confused. Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy. The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910. In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL). I am very familiar with M116's....I have collected 260 diff. cards of this set and 20 of the Blue variations.

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06-22-2007, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez"JOE Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle". Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ? It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting Life (M116) designers got them confused. Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy. The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910. In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL)." * * Let me do this slowly. 1. First, the only SCD catalog that I carry around with me for a checklist, is the 1997 issue. ... they are too heavy. 2. Now you're telling us that Krause started their price list catalog in 1987, (very true) that Krause had the Jim Doyle GOOF UP in the first issue, and has never been corrected. 3. Ted, the M116 were issued 77 years before the Krause SCD Price list, ... and not the other way around. All the M116's, namely the Joe Doyle card, had their names, and league designations on them. 4. All Krause - SCD had to do, was copy the names ... THEY GOOFED, and never corrected it. 5. As for the pressmen that worked on the 1910 M116 set: Why would you think that they in 1910 would consider printing a card of Jim Doyle? 7. The choice between the two Doyles on the roster is easy. One is a 29 year old new comer to the majors, that eventually got 13 AB in 1910. The other was an established pitcher, That Clark Griffith was counting on. If you were there, and had a vote in the matter, ... you and SCD would have been the only ones voting for Jim Doyle.

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06-22-2007, 04:20 PM

Posted By: judson hamlinThere's a Sweet Cap 350 f.30 with an apparent mark at Mike Wheat's to add to the survey.

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06-23-2007, 01:15 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedFour more inputs..... Judd's two inputs..... Piedmont 350......No Mark Sweet Cap 350....Mark Two emailed inputs..... Sweet Cap 350....No Mark Polar Bear...........No Mark

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06-23-2007, 01:25 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......6/22/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........22 Sweet Cap 350......3.........20 Polar Bear.............2.........11 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........0 ____________________________ Totals.................13..........57 With 70 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are sliding into 3rd base....and, we still have 90 ft. to go to score a Run. Thanks for taking the time to look through your T206 cards. TED Z

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06-26-2007, 07:54 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedTwo more inputs....both Sweet Cap 350 cards....No Mark on them. Raises the total to 72 inputs. Thanks everyone, TED Z

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06-26-2007, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Scott B. So, what kind of conclusion can we draw on this "dot variation"??? If that "dot" was a remnant mark of the removal of the word "Nat'l", does it means the infamous N.Y. Nat'l Doyle can be found in SC, PB and OM backs as well?

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06-26-2007, 10:46 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedSCOTT B 1st.....With the moderate sampling, so far, in this survey we can conclude that this "printer's mark" appears on an average of 1 out of every 5.5 Joe Doyle cards.....and, is independent of T-brand. 2nd.....The "Nat'l" lettering on the few known Joe Doyle error cards (approx. 10 known to date) are exclusively on cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs. And, this fact will never change as T206 guys printed the Piedmont brand first on all the press runs. And, since they caught this error very quickly, it did not get printed with any sub- sequent T-brand. 3rd.....If our assumption is correct, that this mark is the remnant of the "N" from "Nat'l" (that was hastily re- moved); then we can also assume that on the 3rd press run thay cleanly removed any remnant of their initial mistake. As the majority of the cards indicate. But, the real question is....if they went thru all these corrections, why didn't they add "Amer." next to N.Y. ? TED Z

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06-26-2007, 11:09 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......6/28/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........22 Sweet Cap 350......4.........23 Polar Bear.............2.........12 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........0 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........61 With 75 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are now safe on 3rd base....and, only 90 ft. away from scoring a Run. Thanks for taking the time to look through your T206 cards......and, we are still looking for that Joe Doyle with an EPDG back (that the POP report says exists) ? TED Z

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06-29-2007, 07:39 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThree more inputs from Net54 "readers" to report. Two "No-Mark" Doyle cards.....a Sweet Caporal 350 and a Polar Bear. One Doyle card with the "Mark".....a Sweet Caporal 350. These 3 inputs have been tallied into the prior Updated survey. Thanks guys, TED Z

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06-29-2007, 02:42 PM

Posted By: Scott LevyOne more for ya.... Doyle with mark - Old Mill (psa 4)

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06-29-2007, 07:43 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedSCOTT L The Old Mill Joe Doyle that you are reporting.....does it happen to be the one that just sold on ebay this past week (lot #290130244677) ? I ask, because the info on that particular card was emailed to me 10 days ago. And, I doing my darn-dest to keep all inputs unique. TED Z

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06-29-2007, 08:52 PM

Posted By: ScottWow....you guys are 10 steps ahead of me. It's the same card (my dad just bought it off eBay)....so don't count it in your stats. Regards, SGL

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06-30-2007, 07:59 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThanks for confirming my thoughts on the Joe Doyle with the Old Mill back. It seemed too coincidental that a 2nd one was exactly like the one that had been reported earlier. TED Z

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06-30-2007, 08:27 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCted- i visited Scott & his dad last night (who have an amzaing collection by the way) and i saw the Old Mill "mark" example...it is subtle, but very cool, nonetheless. kudos to you for "discovering" this variation, it could really become something big.

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06-30-2007, 10:53 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezYou stated: June 25 2007, 12:46 PM "2nd.....The "Nat'l" lettering on the few known Joe Doyle error cards (approx. 10 known to date)" * * Ten is a rather high number. Are you able to elaborate on that number, or are you just throwing it out there? Joe

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07-01-2007, 06:54 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedMVSNYC Thanks for the nice words, I really appreciate them. That very card of Joe Doyle with the Old Mill back and the printer's Mark was the 1st one I've ever seen advertised on ebay stating that it has the printer's Mark. That card was reported to me about 12 days ago. And, it's nice to see that a Net54 member won it. TED Z

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07-08-2007, 01:03 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJOE P I said "approximately 10".......I can name 8, and I've heard of a possible 9th. I don't give out names on this board. Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12. TED Z

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07-08-2007, 01:13 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......7/7/07.......two more inputs (both Sweet Cap 350 - no marks) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........22 Sweet Cap 350......4.........25 Polar Bear.............2.........12 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........0 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........63 With 77 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". Thanks, for looking thru your T206 cards; and, are there anymore Joe Doyle's in Net54-land ? And, does anyone have a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ? The POP report says it exists....I have never seen one. TED Z

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07-08-2007, 04:07 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez"JOE P "I said "approximately 10".......I can name 8, and I've heard of a possible 9th. I don't give out names on this board. Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12."." TED Z * * OK, You don't have to tell the board. Being that I own the third known Doyle, and being that I once had in my possession two of Dr Koos doctored Doyles ... I've been researching the good and the bad DOYLE's since day 1. How about sending me the names to compare notes? You also say that other reports in the hobby, have said as many as 12. Give us the link to those reports. I've been researching the Doyle error card since 1987. You just got turned on to the Doyle one year and a half ago. The debate you had with Barry Sloat in 2005 is proof of that. If you want to work with me ... fine. If you rather side step this ... I WILL UNDERSTAND. Because, if I see a red flag that's brought on by my research, I will raise that red flag to the top of the mast. My research since 1987, is NOT based on speculations, suppositions, assumptions or theories. It's based on happenings and people ... the opposite to the above. Now this could be a continuation to the 1990 Texas national. Where Mark Macrae and I wasted our time trying to educate the dealers at that show. The first one was a dealer from Denver, that for hours refused to believe that he bought a bum Magie, created by Dr Koos, from a dealer from Flint MI at the Texas show. He got his money back, but what a waste of time. Before the Texas national, I had already gotten my money back from Dr Koos. Do to the research i did on him, he saw the wisdom of playing ball with me. Mark Macrae and I, with the support of Lipset, L. Fritsch, Herman Kaufman, John Tisch and Lemke, went to Texas to warn the business end of the hobby about a malignant growth by the name of Dr Koos, Danny Dubchek. I gave them his name. I gave them his MO. I told them what to look for, without telling all. No sense telling the Dr how to correct what to look for. I tried to convince them to go after him, because he wasn't going anywhere. To make a long story short, the business end was more interested in the Kit Young annual February shindig in Hawaii than fighting off a growing malignant growth in the hobby. The rest is history, Dr Koos had a ball at the expense of the collectors. I fought for mine, and got it back. ... But that's me. Ted, you can start by giving us the link to the other reports in the hobby that have said as many as 12 Doyle's. There's nothing worse for a researcher than misinformation. To a brainpicker, it means nothing. Or you can step away ... Like Texas. Joe

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07-08-2007, 06:53 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJOE At times you come across as very confrontational. And, this is turning-off people on this board. It is not the same friendly, conversational Joe.....that I remember talking with at Willow Grove or Ft. Washington for hours at a time. You have to tone it it down, Joe. Regarding the....."Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12".....Joe Doyle error cards...... I heard this from a collector, recently at the Reading Show, who tracks the so-called "POP reports". So, you might want to check that out. I don't recall whether it was the PSA or SGC report. I do not follow that stuff.....anyhow, I think that figure is inaccurate. TED Z

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07-08-2007, 09:31 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezHeard it from a collector at the Reading show??? Pop Report??? Ted, I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years. I know how you feel about slabs and Pop REPORTS. We feel the same way. THIS FORUM IS JUST DISCOVERING THAT THE GRADING SYSTEM MIGHT BE BROKEN. At 76 I don't have much time to play footsies with others. Then again, at sixteen, I didn't play footsies either, but I was a little bit more diplomatic. ... Time plus time equals time. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> I find your current digging into the micro portion of N. Y. Nat'l very interesting. Joe D. of the second generation printing Joe D's nailed it with his summation. The sad part is: ANYTIME, and I mean anytime, that misinformation of hearsay is passed along as part of the digging, IT WILL UNDERMINE THE CONCERTED EFFORTS OF A GOOD DIG. In other words, YOU ARE DEFEATING YOUR PURPOSE, by just tossing around a word, or a number just because it sounds good, and saying ... "I didn't say it, someone at the Reading show said it." Sorry Ted. It sounds like the 1990 Texas national all over again. If any of you have any questions about that. Just ask Mark Macrae. We wasted our time in Texas. I could have been looking for cards for my collection. Do you really think the grading system is broken? NAH!

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07-10-2007, 07:35 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJOE Say something.....POSITIVE.....without qualifying it ! ! Surprise us. And Joe..... You stated...."I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years." Then, how come you didn't notice this "printer's mark".....before I did ? TED Z

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07-10-2007, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezPennsylvania Ted: "JOE "Say something.....POSITIVE.....without qualifying it ! ! Surprise us. And Joe..... You stated...."I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years." Then, how come you didn't notice this "printer's mark".....before I did ?" TED Z * * 1. I'll gladly qualify whatever you want me to qualify. 2. To question number two. About your earth shaking discovery of the printers mark. It might be difficult for your Bowmen mindset to recall, but it took from 1909 till 1980 for someone like Fritsch to come across the Slow Joe Doyle error. Therefore, I will apologize for not spotting the dot on a card during my 20 years of research on the Doyle error. BTW, how many dots have you come up with? For someone that just discovered the Doyle error, you do pretty good work. Unfortunately, you undermine, and defeat all that work, by inserting some misinformation with it. Misinformation, is the worse possible ingredient to a researcher. It can sidetrack, their research. Now, are you going to work with me on the 6-7-8 or 9 names of the GOOD known Doyles that according to YOU have been found? Or, like the dealers of the 1990 Texas national, do nothing, and let the collectors fend for themselves. Your move Ted. Joe Pelaez

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07-10-2007, 02:44 PM

Posted By: ZinnCheck.

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07-10-2007, 02:52 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedFinally......a Joe Doyle with an El Principe de Gales back.....No Mark TED Z

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07-10-2007, 03:06 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......7/16/07 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........24 Sweet Cap 350......4.........25 Polar Bear.............2.........12 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........66 With 80 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". Thanks, for looking thru your T206 cards; and, are there anymore Joe Doyle's in Net54-land ? TED Z

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07-17-2007, 02:13 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedTwo emails, each reporting a Joe Doyle with No Mark (both with Piedmont 350 backs). TED Z

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07-18-2007, 06:53 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedUPDATED......7/17/07......Sweet Cap on ebay (no mark) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........24 Sweet Cap 350......4.........26 Polar Bear.............2.........12 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........67 With 81 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". Come on Net54er's....need only 19 more of your Joe Doyle cards to reach the goal of 100.... show or tell us about yours ? TED Z

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08-05-2007, 08:39 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJust returned from the National and the Cooperstown Shows. Met a good number of Net54er's and had a lot of fun. Looked over 600 - T206's and only found 5 - Joe Doyle's.... Two with Piedmont 350 backs and 3 having Sweet Cap 350 backs.....none had the Printer's Mark TED Z

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08-05-2007, 08:40 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED........Aug 4th 2007 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........26 Sweet Cap 350......4.........29 Polar Bear.............2.........12 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........72 With 86 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". Come on Net54er's....need only 14 more of your Joe Doyle cards to reach the goal of 100.... show or tell us about yours ? TED Z

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08-05-2007, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanThis thread has been very interesting. So it looks like the extra dot cards are 5 times scarcer than the other Doyles. Will this have an impact on price? Will the extra dot cards be 5 times the price of the other Doyles, or will they carry a small premium, or does anyone really care enough about the difference to pay extra for this card? Will this be added to the T206 checklist? Will PSA put the "extra dot" version on their flip? Have the "extra dot" versions already sold for higher prices on ebay? I noticed that the Doyle extra dot card on Mike Wheat's website is already gone. I have enjoyed watching this thread develop during the last two months, and it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Do we have an idea of how many Doyle's are out there? 100's? 1000's? And if 15% of these have the extra dots can we get an idea of how many variations are out there? Are they more rare than the Elberfeld Washington Portrait or Demmitt St. Louis cards? As usual, I have lots of questions and no answers. Hopefully the T206 experts can answer some of these questions. Thanks! Rick

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08-05-2007, 01:35 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezTune in tomorrow.......... Same time ........ Same station............ For the adventures of the Doyle variation Dots............ Without the dot in your life, you have a Doyle error....

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08-05-2007, 08:25 PM

Posted By: bill latzkoI have 2 without the dot--Don't know the back since they are in my safe box bill Out of Iraq NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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08-05-2007, 08:42 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisRICK I don't think there are many T206 collectors that care about this "printer's mark". Most trying to complete this set are just happy to find a Joe Doyle. And, the reasons this card is tough to find are well-known. Recently, a "reader" of this forum did advertise "the dot" when he listed on ebay a Joe Doyle (with an Old Mill back that was graded either a "4" or a "5"); and, he sold it for about $800. Whether the "dot" made an impact on the selling price is anyone's guess. I did not initiate this thread to establish some monetary value on this strange variation of the Joe Doyle card....but to inform and to stir up some thought-provoking conversation. As, my understanding was that very few T206 collectors were aware of this printer's mark and the possible significance that it may imply. TED Z

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08-07-2007, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBILL L Thanks for your two inputs....but, I need their back info ? Meanwhile, two emails reported Joe Doyle cards....one with a Polar Bear back and a 2nd with a Sweet Cap 350 back....No Mark on either. TED Z

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08-10-2007, 06:08 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED............Aug 9, 2007 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........26 Sweet Cap 350......4.........30 Polar Bear.............2.........13 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........76 With 90 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". This will be the last go around on this Survey, so Net54er's, check-out your Joe Doyle cards and show or tell us about yours ? TED Z

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08-18-2007, 05:23 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezSide stepping the source of the 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 assumed Slow Joe Doyle error cards. Ted, you are a continuation of the Texas national. They did nothing to defend their business, and the collectors. Your contribution, is mixing in some misinformation, with your interesting survey. ... what a waste, and what a defeat of purpose. Joe

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08-18-2007, 07:33 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedJoe "the Parrot" Palaez You keep repeating the same old "mumble-jumble" that no one here understands or cares to hear about. Your NEGATIVITY adds nothing to this forum....so get the hell off my thread.

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08-19-2007, 03:28 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezPassing on sourceless misinformation, is a positive practice??? Because that's what you're doing. Enough with the assumptions - speculations - suppositions and Teddie theories. ... give us some facts. Every time some one asks for the facts, you run and hide. You are so in love with theories, that you try to create a mystery, where there's no mystery to be had. Go ahead, keep throwing sourceless numbers around. All you;re doing is creating a new batch of newbies with numerical misinformation. If that's your aim ... GO FOR IT.

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08-19-2007, 07:44 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJOE P Yes, I have come up with a lot of theories over the 30+ years that I have been in this hobby (as an adult). Many of these theories have been proven true. At least I have the intellectual curiosity to delve into cer- tain aspects of this hobby, that are puzzling to collectors. Now, regarding your incessant "crowing" about how many "real" Joe Doyle error cards exist....Mark Macrae and I discussed this subject at length while we shared a table in Cleveland, recently. And, we think there are 5 to 6 Joe Doyle's that are positively confirmed and 2 - 4 that....although they have been professionally graded.....can possibly be "altered ones". I am not a fan of graded cards; however, since these additional 4 cards have been graded....until proven otherwise, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. TED Z

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08-20-2007, 07:11 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTwo more reported Joe Doyle cards.......both with Sweet Cap 350 backs....neither with Marks. TED Z

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08-20-2007, 07:21 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED............Aug 19, 2007 T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........26 Sweet Cap 350......4.........32 Polar Bear.............2.........13 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........78 With 92 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 15% of the Joe Doyle cards. If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ? TED Z

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08-22-2007, 06:16 AM

Posted By: RalphCould this dot card be a error in which led to the fixing of the card? I would think it could be a logical assumption,just my two cents <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-29-2007, 06:38 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED........Aug 27, 2007......4 new inputs reported No Mark (Piedmont, Polar Bear and 2-Sweet Caps.) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........27 Sweet Cap 350......4.........34 Polar Bear.............2.........14 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........1 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........82 With 96 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 14% of the Joe Doyle cards..... or, on an average of 1 out of every 7 cards of Joe Doyle. If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ? TED Z

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09-06-2007, 03:41 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTwo more Joe Doyle inputs..... Old Mill....No Mark Piedmont....No Mark Only two more needed to attain a sample of 100 different cards....your inputs are appreciated. TED Z

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09-08-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED........Sept 7, 2007......3 new inputs reported No Mark (Old Mill, Piedmont, Polar Bear) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........28 Sweet Cap 350......4.........34 Polar Bear.............2.........15 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........2 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........85 With 99 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 14% of the Joe Doyle cards..... or, on an average of 1 out of every 7 cards of Joe Doyle. If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ? TED Z

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09-24-2007, 07:37 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWell we finally hit the 100+ mark and I run this thread up the flag pole one more time. UPDATED........Sept 23, 2007......5 new inputs reported No Mark (2-Old Mill, Polar Bear, 2-Sweet Cap 350) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........28 Sweet Cap 350......4.........36 Polar Bear.............2.........16 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........4 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........90 With 104 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 13% of the Joe Doyle cards..... or, on an average of 1 out of every 7.5 cards of Joe Doyle. If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ? TED Z

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09-26-2007, 04:21 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWell we finally hit the 100+ mark and I run this thread up the flag pole one more time. UPDATED....Sept 25, 2007....4 new inputs reported....No Mark (Old Mill, Piedmont 350, Polar Bear, Sweet Cap 350) T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark Piedmont 350........7.........29 Sweet Cap 350......4.........37 Polar Bear.............2.........17 Tolstoi..................0..........1 Old Mill..................1..........5 Sovereign 350........0...........2 EPDG....................0...........1 Unknown back........0...........2 ____________________________ Totals.................14..........94 With 108 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark". To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 13% of the Joe Doyle cards..... or, on an average of 1 out of every 7.5 cards of Joe Doyle. If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ? TED Z

nodgrass

08-13-2010, 12:52 PM

T206 Joe Doyle Nevada variation found. I am going to quit my job on Monday!

ethicsprof

08-13-2010, 01:25 PM

unfortunately, yours is not the rare Nevada variation but instead the very common Naamloze Vennootschap--the Dutch variation for LLCs.

nice card, though

best,
barry

nodgrass

08-13-2010, 01:32 PM

Thank you for clarifying. It's still a variation though, and I am rich...right?

ethicsprof

08-13-2010, 01:47 PM

Only if you heed the warning of da Vinci:
he who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a year.

I feel certain that you are wishing to be rich only in the next week or so, so
you should be fine!

best,
barry

nodgrass

08-20-2010, 08:12 AM

I own a few of these Doyles and have seen quite a few recently. So far I have not seen any with the referred to "mark" after N.Y. I would have thought that with 13% presence of "the mark", I would have. Since most of the Doyles I've seen have been for sale, I have to add, it is possible people are holding onto these "marked" examples.

tedzan

08-31-2010, 11:33 AM

Marc

Since that poll (I conducted 3 years ago), I have kept track of the Joe Doyle cards, and the % of cards that have the printer's (remnant) mark
is considerably less than 13%.

My latest tally is 229 unique samples. A total of 19 exhibit this "mark". At this point, that translates to 8.3%.....or, 1 of every 12 Joe Doyle cards.

I would be very interested in knowing what backs are on these Joe Doyle cards that you have (or have seen) ?

Because, the Joe Doyle's with backs other than Piedmont 350 (and to a lesser degree Sweet Cap 350) are very rarely found with this "mark".

<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/doyledbldot.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
printer's mark......................../\ ...........................(remnant from "N" in Nat'l)

Regards,

TED Z