Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys [Archive]

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09-17-2007, 07:18 AM

Posted By: bruce DorskindIrrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys Whilst the headline from last night's Memory Lane Auction will no doubt be about the $275,000 paid for the PSA 10 Gehrig, the result that intrigued us most was the vast difference in prices realized for two low number PSA 8 1933 Goudeys and the fact that a number of other Goudeys with a similar population realized only 10% of the price of their lower number cousins #26 Chalmer Cissell PSA 8 NM-MT $7455 (pop 8 none higher) #36 Tommy Thevenow PSA 8 NM-MT $8198 (pop 9 none higher) #203 Lonnie Warneke PSA 8 NM-MT $670.00 (pop 12 one higher) Only one example of the Thevenow has been auctioned in the past two years. It realized a 21% higher price in the Spring 2005 REA auction. We , by the way, were the winners of the Warneke example. We would appreciate your views on why there is a such a significant price differential for cards whose populations are quite similar? Bruce Dorskind America’s Toughest Want List

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09-17-2007, 07:24 AM

Posted By: Steve Murray"none higher" vs. "one higher". Seems obvious to us. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-17-2007, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSome of the reasons include: the difference in population and 'none higher' as Steve pointed out. Also, the first two cards are 2 point set registry cards and the latter 1. However, Bruce, to the rational mind these factors do not explain the 13x difference between those cards and yours. I recently bought #115 Cliff Heathcoate PSA 8 with a pop 10 and none higher for $697. I'd sell the card for a third of what the Cissell and Thevanow went for if I could get it.

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09-17-2007, 08:07 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- I know from my own auctions that when I get prices that seem crazy compared to similar items they are totally based upon who is bidding. If there is no particular bidding war going on my lots will sell in the range of fair market price. When a similar lot sells significantly higher, it's usually two bidders going back and forth. Looking at prices realized alone doesn't tell you the full story. It could have been two guys going back and forth all night on the Cissell and the Thevenow.

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09-17-2007, 08:41 AM

Posted By: JimBAs Barry suggested, I would guess it is simply a matter of two people who really need/want those particular cards. JimB

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09-17-2007, 09:01 AM

Posted By: Rand Brotmanboth low number cards are extremely tough, when you back out who already owns the other cards in the registry, you will realize there may be only 1 or 2 examples available to buy if you want that card. The Thevenow card is a bit different, his son buys up all the Thevenow cards (just like Evar Swanson's son) on ebay that come available. so if he was aware of this card and another person was looking to upgrade its a battle. in the end, i still dont trust the actual figues in any Mem Lane auction.

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09-17-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: peter chaoThe Dorskinds purchased a '33 Goudey Warneke in PSA 8 for over $650? Doesn't that seem a little high? Last weekend at the Tri-Star in San Francisco, I purchased a PSA 6 '54 Bowman Mantle for about the same price. I don't know about you, but I would rather have the Mantle. Peter C.

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09-17-2007, 11:29 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBruce's price was not high.

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09-17-2007, 11:42 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, You are a New Yorker and I will assume that you are a Mantle collector. Would you rather have the PSA 8 Lonnie Warneke or the PSA 6 Mantle? Peter C.

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09-17-2007, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI'd rather have the Goudey because I collect the set. Now, if the question was a PSA 8 Mantle or the Goudey, no question the Mantle.

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09-17-2007, 12:16 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesSo, I take it that the consensus is that the populations stated: 8, 9 & 12 are numbers which are distinguishable from each other, and real. Real, in that they represent 8, 9 & 12 individual cards? And what? All PSA 8s are equal .... none has a chance for becoming a nine? Its not my game, but even spectators like to know the rules, and how to keep score.

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09-17-2007, 01:24 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, That's reasonable. I collect '33 Goudeys also and if I was close to completing the set I might be tempted by the Lonnie Warneke. But right now my preference would be for the PSA 6 Bowman Mantle. Peter C.

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09-19-2007, 10:17 PM

Posted By: cmokingSorry to burst your bubble Bruce, but clearly you don't understand the high-grade 1933 Goudey market very well. Whilst you did get a decent purchase on the PSA 8 Warneke, it was nothing special as far as the price was concerned. You paid $670. The last few PSA 8 Warneke public sales in the last three years were: $800 $700 $2,000 $700 $710 5 PSA 8 cards have changed hands. Why so many when the pop is only 12? Probably because there is a PSA 9 and a PSA 10 in holders right now, thus the guys that upgraded sold off their 8s. Meanwhile, the Cissell and Thevenow are in a completely different universe when it comes to high-grade Goudeys. I'm surprised you aren't aware, I thought you were well-tuned into the high-grade market. Previous PSA 8 public sales in the last three years - just one of each card (Thevenow and Cissell) Thevenow PSA 8: $9700 Cissell PSA 8: $4945 Whilst the price difference between the Thevenow/Cissell compared to the Warneke vis-a-vi high grade cards may be surprising to those that don't understand the high-end market, it certainly is not surprising to well-tuned collectors in this hobby. edited to add: based on all the information I have about the parties involved, I DO NOT think the PSA 10 Gehrig truly changed hands.

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09-20-2007, 08:53 AM

Posted By: leonI very much respect your opinions on the board. You don't believe the PSA 10 Gehrig changed hands?.....pretty interesting.....I would prefer a reserve in auctions instead of the shell game....and for the record (not to try to change the subject) I don't have any issue with folks bidding on their own stuff in auctions, as I believe it should be stated as an acceptable rule, and then the buyer pays all associated fees. The buyers premium on that card would have been a good chunk of change to the auction house....I would guess if it didn't sell that there was an arrangement beforehand....(duh)....

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09-20-2007, 09:02 AM

Posted By: Zinn"I don't have any issue with folks bidding on their own stuff in auctions, as I believe it should be stated as an acceptable rule." Did you really mean to say that?

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09-20-2007, 09:37 AM

Posted By: leonI do....as I believe that many (not me) people will get other people to bid on their items if they aren't selling at a high enough level in auctions. To me it's the old ostrich in the sand situation. Everyone knows it goes on but no one wants to talk about it. Sorry, that's not my way of thinking. This is a very debatable issue but I would rather just come out and say the reality instead of thinking otherwise....just my opinion....Most might disagree and that is ok. You don't see me running an auction, do you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-20-2007, 09:38 AM

Posted By: Marc S.If Charlie were obligated to pay the buyer's fee on the Gehrig PSA 10 (e.g. >$30k) if it didn't sell -- perhaps that is incentive to not have a hidden reserve. But if there is a hidden reserve and the card doesn't sell, with no consequences to the seller for it not being met...it does not serve the collecting community as a whole; it just ends up being a museum piece with an unconfirmed sale with an unrealistic price (assuming the consignor bid it up)

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09-20-2007, 09:54 AM

Posted By: Zinn"people will get other people to bid on their items" I guess I'm just a naive boob but I would be personally embarassed to ask someone to do that. And, even I were to even consider asking someone, what would I think of the person if he or she agreed?

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09-20-2007, 10:13 AM

Posted By: JimBI agree with Leon on this one. Let's take a hypothetical example. Let's say I consign a card to Mastro that I believe is worth $12,000. There is one minute left in the 30 minute overtime period and the card has stalled at $4,000. I decide I would rather eat the $880 Buyers Premium and have the card back for $4400 + BP, than sell it for $4,000. What is morally objectionable about that, particularly given that Mastro sets the minimum bids at about 10% of market value and does not allow for reserves of any type other than this low minimum bid? JimB

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09-20-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe way my software is set up, when I type up the lots on my spreadsheet I include the name of the consignor. That way, if a consignor tries to bid on his own lot he will be locked out. That said, I know any consignor can ask a friend to bid. And while I will continue to lock out my consignors, I too couldn't care one way or the other. Jim B's example proves the point- why should I force a consignor to accept a miserable bid if that's what he faces? The only solution is a reserve, but I run a no reserve auction so that too is not the answer. In the end, if a consignor asks a friend to bid on one of his lots, I just don't want to know about it. That keeps it simple and gets me off the hook. There is just so much I can do to police my own auction.

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09-20-2007, 10:48 AM

Posted By: cmokingLeon wrote: "You don't believe the PSA 10 Gehrig changed hands?.....pretty interesting....." I might be wrong, but that's my assumption unless I see something else that shows it did in fact change hands. The first piece of evidence would be to see Charles Merkel due his duty and delete the card from his top-notch 1933 Goudey PSA registered set if he in fact no longer owns the card.

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09-20-2007, 11:53 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJimB, There's nothing morally wrong with your example of a seller buying back their own card, but it is an unusual situation. It is also collusion. The buyer and seller is artificially jacking up the price for another buyer. However, in this situation the buyer and seller is the same person. Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: leonyou said: "There's nothing morally wrong with your example of a seller buying back their own card, but it is an unusual situation." I agree it is not morally wrong if you disclose it. I disagree that it would be unusual as I think many sellers would prefer to buy back a card and pay the fees than lose a ton of money. then you said: "It is also collusion. The buyer and seller is artificially jacking up the price for another buyer. However, in this situation the buyer and seller is the same person." I agree the price could be getting jacked up by the consignor but if the other bidder knows that going in then they can make an informed decision about how much they want to pay. Lets say I have 10k into a card and I consign it. At the ending of the auction it's sitting at 5k.....I don't want to sell it for that so I put in a bid of 5.5k....the other bidder says to themself...well, that's still a good price at the next increment so they bid 6k....Now I say to myself I will go ahead and let it go at that.....both parties are happy and the other bidder knows it very well might have been the seller on the other end bidding against him....but it's ok as he still feels he got a good deal......btw, this scenario happens in every single auction...REA, Mastro, SCP, etc etc.....it's just done through friends bidding for other friends....and no, I have never done this on either side. I know folks that do, and have, though. So then I say.....ok, then lets get it out in the open......total disclosure.....but I understand some won't agree with this mode of thinking.....regards

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09-20-2007, 12:54 PM

Posted By: PASI don't get it. I just don't get it. Is this non-Euclidean law or something? "It is also collusion. The buyer and seller is artificially jacking up the price for another buyer. However, in this situation the buyer and seller is the same person."

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09-20-2007, 01:20 PM

Posted By: peter chaoYou forgot the smiley face at the end of your post. All I'm saying is that a layperson would consider it collusion because it was undisclosed that the buyer and seller could be the same person. Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 01:23 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliIf an auction house were to disclose that consignors were allowed to bid on their own lots, I would not bid in that auction. I understand you might not mean it, but at least kiss me and whisper in my ear, you know? -Al

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09-20-2007, 01:27 PM

Posted By: PASAl I respect your idealism but I think it's going to happen no matter what, if one can't bid oneself one can just have a friend bid for him to protect a card. So why not just be up front about it?

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09-20-2007, 01:37 PM

Posted By: ZinnI'm with you Al. Until such time as the auctioneers put realistic estimates and or disclosed reserves I'm inclined to pass as well. What's wrong with a reserve? If a seller wants to protect his investment that's what he should do. I know it stiffles the bidding process but the thought of having sellers bidding on their own auctions, albeit through a straw, is repugnant to me.

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09-20-2007, 01:45 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGuys, for the most part, all policy decisions of auction houses are dictated by money only. When the time comes that fairness, honesty and disclosure become a part of the calculus feel free to wake me up.

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09-20-2007, 02:46 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"Guys, for the most part, all policy decisions of auction houses are dictated by money only. When the time comes that fairness, honesty and disclosure become a part of the calculus feel free to wake me up." Well said! This is the reason I no longer bid on any cards from any auction. That, plus I think I have seen too many graded altered cards from many different auction houses. Some I believe knew what they were selling, while others probably didn't have a clue. I for one won't take the chance. I simply can't understand why anyone else would either. Kevin

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09-20-2007, 02:53 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSo Kevin, are you suggesting that the whole auction business should cease and desist? I guess that would put me out of business.

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09-20-2007, 02:58 PM

Posted By: peter chaoKevin, If we adapt your view, then we should buy only retail and avoid E-Bay and auctions and Barry would be out of business. Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 02:59 PM

Posted By: leonTo know why we bid in auctions you can go to my site and look at my personal collection. About 80%-90% of my best cards came from auction houses....I have bid and won items from almost every auction house you can think of. Since I don't collect high grade I doubt 1% of my cards have issues that I don't know about....or have been over looked by a grading company. Contrary to a few opinions I will never ever believe there are as many tainted cards (in a deceitful way) in lower grade than there are in higher grade, holders or not....It doesn't make cents (sic)... edited grammar....still not perfect but better...

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09-20-2007, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliCan't buy retail either, Peter. You never know where those cards came from. Perhaps the seller is asking too much for them, perhaps they've been altered, perhaps they once were purchased on eBay or through an auction house. Can't buy on eBay, can't bid in auctions, can't buy at retail. The sky is, indeed, falling. Well, that's it, I guess. No more cards. Barry, time to pack up shop and get back into academia. -Al

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09-20-2007, 03:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI more or less agree with Kevin here. Auction houses are generally to be avoided unless you know the complete background of the card or its obvious nothing has been done. Seldom can someone can look at a card in a holder on a screen and determine that it hasn't been altered. Buy your expensive cards from a dealer with a money back guarantee. I think the hobby will move back toward the Steve Novella way with buying expensive cards personally from a dealer with a money-back guarantee.

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09-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAl- no more academia for me. Next career move is retirement. Jim- how on earth am I to know the background of all the cards in my auction? Do you know how many of the cards I have that I can tell you about their past- exactly zero. So what should I do, just pack it in?

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09-20-2007, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThe sky is not falling and Barry need not endeavor to learn of ways to earn a living through his Seinfeld trivia knowledge. However, if you're concerned about unfair auction practices and buying cards that are knowingly altered then Kevin and Jim are right. Obviously there needs to be a happy medium that each collector can live with. Mine is that I avoid 90% of the auction houses now and assume that I am still being victimized by shill bidding. Unfortunately, whether you buy from ebay or Mastro or Memory Lane the same issues may exist. And for anyone that doubts my comments on the prevalence of shill bidding in auction houses, go ahead and buy 5 esoteric items from an auction house and resell them on ebay and let me know if you get back more than 50% of what you paid to that auction house. Jim C, etc: how about we make an auction house challenge? We offer a large cash donation to the charity of the auction houses' choice if their top executives will agree to undergo a polygraph examination (and pass) with the following question presented: are you aware of any shill bidding practices in any of your auctions over the past 10 years?

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09-20-2007, 03:21 PM

Posted By: peter chaoAl, Guys Through this thread we have pretty much decided that there's no future way of doing things in this hobby, and that we need to go back to the good old days. Guess what...it's not going to happen. So how do we improve the future of our hobby? Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 03:24 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, You can do what you like. I cannot tell from looking at your graded cards(or others) whether they have been altered or not. In my opinion(since you asked), you should set up a mail order business with a money-back guarantee. Collectors could buy with confidence. By the way Barry if I bought something at your auction and sent it to Kevin to look at and he told me the card looked suspicious would you let me return the card?

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09-20-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJeff, I love it--we could even expand the question to have you knowingly sold altered cards. And your comments about shill bids and auction houses in general are dead on.

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09-20-2007, 03:28 PM

Posted By: PASJim, the answer would probably depend on the definition of altered.

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09-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Whilst, we are aware that from time to time, there are cards found in PSA/SGC Holders that have been altered , it would not be an efficient use of time and resources for an auction house and/or agent of one to alter every card. While our general operating philosophy is trust no one and double check everyone, we think that our friends at the Auction Houses are wise enough not to alter $500 cards. We also believe that the sense of paronia with regard to shill bidding affirms our believe that those who choose not to acquire ultra high grade cards defend their position by implying that all ultra high grades are bad. We have countless cards that achieved grades of 8 or 9 which we obtained from Sir Edward Wharton Tigar, Charles Bray, Cliff Lambert,and others...long before there ever was a grading system. As for the coming collapse in the graded card market, if it were going to happen anywhere it would have happend in the coin market. The coin market's trading activity is valued at least 50x the card market. Slabs are broken day in and day out... yet the market marches on...and has been extremely healthy. Whilst you may not agree, this hobby is now a big businees...every big business has its regularlory issues...but the rare card market is basically solid...and while the poor (and we do mean_poor) cry babies sit on the sidelines and complain, the astute, educated saavy collector investors will continue to thrive. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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09-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLets let Barry answer it Peter--Barry if I bought 5 high end cards in your auction, sent them to Kevin and Kevin said in his opinion only two could he say with confidence have not been altered could I return the other 3???

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09-20-2007, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBruce, your position is directly related to your desire to maintain the value of your collection -- fair enough. However, I'm paranoid about shill bidding and altered cards and I spend 6 figures on cards every year, as does Jim Crandell I presume, another "paranoid" one.

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09-20-2007, 03:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think I'm getting a job at Starbuck's making vanilla lattes. Jim- a few points. First, the majority of the material I get is consigned to me with the request that I auction it. I don't know if I would get the material I do under any other circumstance. As far as a return privilege after showing it to Kevin: I can't say it's totally unreasonable, but just for argument's sake, what if I disagree with Kevin? What if I say I think the card in question is fine? What if I think between Kevin and SGC I'll go with SGC's opinion? Not saying you don't have a point, but I would have to think about it.

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09-20-2007, 03:36 PM

Posted By: peter chaoBarry, Forget about working at Starbucks, come to my law office and edit my papers. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 03:41 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman(In Captain Kirk voice): "must... resist... responding ... to ... that ... last ... post.."

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09-20-2007, 03:43 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Lets say for sake of argument I consider Kevin an expert and that his opinion carries the day. Not telling you how to run your business but without the guarantee I am unlikely to bid much in any auctions. Don't blame you for saying you would have to think about it--what would your consigners think? Its a tough issue. But to reiterate if I bought a $15,000 card off a dealer's sell list, I would say its contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. Dealer sends me card--I send to Kevin, Kevin returns card to me with his opinion and I either then send check to dealer or return the card.

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09-20-2007, 03:44 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the whole world's gone crazy. Or as Jerry said to Babu Baht: "Babu, the shrimp is a bit stringy" (don't ask me how that relates to this discussion).

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09-20-2007, 03:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- because 99% of my customers are happy with the graded cards I sell, I would probably say we're still friends but it might be best if you didn't bid. No disrespect to you or Kevin, but sometimes I guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do!

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09-20-2007, 03:48 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I understand you have to make a living--just explaining why in my opinion buying cards directly with a return privlege is superior to buying them at auction. Good luck.

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09-20-2007, 03:50 PM

Posted By: PASHow many cards has Kevin convincingly identified as altered for you, Jim, or anyone else? EDITED TO ADD While I find his posts interesting and like him personally, I am not ready yet to anoint him as some uber-grader keeping tabs on the grading services, and I just wonder why you seem willing to do so?

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09-20-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierFor what it's worth, although I don't know Barry personally, I can see he makes a great effort to run an honest auction. It's the auction houses that are always in question I would not buy from. I sold an old car last week for a couple grand. The kid and his father tested, inspected and asked questions for a couple hours. They brought the car to their mechanic for a second opinion. In the end they were satisfied. A collector will slap down $50K on a card he can't inspect and with no questions asked based only on an opinion from an unknown person with unknown qualifications. I don't have the answers and the sky is not falling but I would be very cautious in light of all the problems. Then again maybe I'm not an astute, educated saavy collector. Kevin

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09-20-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliNot to disparage anyone, but if I were in business and someone asked me if I would guarantee that my products would pass muster with a person who has no affiliation with any recognized business or regulatory entity in my industry, I would politely tell that person to pound sand. My next-door neighbor knows a lot about cars, but I'm pretty sure that Toyota isn't going to let me return my SUV if he doesn't like it. It doesn't mean my neighbor isn't extremely knowledgeable - perhaps even more knowledgeable than some of the people who work for Toyota - but unfortunately, he does not have the qualifications to make that judgement, regardless of how much he knows. Not to speak for any auction houses, but I'm pretty sure that the grading company holders in which their cards reside is the authentication that they offer. And while they do occasionally make mistakes and differ in their interpretations of various forms of "alteration," I'm more confident in their opinions with respect to authentication, alteration detection, and overall grading than I am of the opinions of most other people. After all, the average grader evaluates more cards in a day or two than most of us see in several months' time. My point: the grading company offers the peace of mind that most of us are seeking. And while altered cards certainly get into holders, my impression is that incrementally more altered cards are rejected. There are certainly holes in the system, but it's nowhere near as bad as the Wild West it used to be. Not to disparage anyone else, but Bruce, there's no need to sound so envious of the astute, savvy collector investors. They make just as many mistakes as you do, albeit on a grander scale since they invest so much more in the hobby than you or I. -Al edited for more clarity and to sound less disparaging.

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09-20-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJim, For the vendor, the problem with return privileges is that it creates a cash flow problem. Suppose I sold you a $50,000 card and I earned $10,000 on the deal. Then one year later you want to return the card. Suppose 10 customers want to do this in one month. Basically the customers are asking for $500,000 to be returned to them. For most vendors that would present a serious problem. Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 03:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- fair enough. And I agree with Peter- Kevin knows a lot about card alterations, but he's not a professional. He taught himself because he wanted to learn, but he's not the Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler- yet. Maybe some day he will be.

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09-20-2007, 04:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Relax--I have return privleges with a number of major dealers I buy from. Al, I respectfully disagree on part of your thinking. I think its reasonable when buying an expensive collectible to make the sale contingent upon an independent experts view that the collectible has not been altered in any way and to have a return privlege if it is judged by that expert to be altered. I don't buy the analogy to a car. On our friend Kevin, while he may not have all the answers he certainly has recognized a fair amout of altered cards in holders and has shown the ability to get alterations by the best graders in the business. Not only did Kevin not pay me to say this but I am buying him dinner the week after next.

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09-20-2007, 04:09 PM

Posted By: PASI thought PSA SGC and GAI were independent experts, Jim.

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09-20-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter -- they're not independent experts with regard to reviewing cards that they encapsulate.

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09-20-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim: I agree with what you're saying, completely. The issue lies in the term "independent expert." The "independent expert" is not Kevin (no disrespect intended), it is SGC or PSA. The grading company has already rendered its opinion on the card. In my analogy, Toyota is not going to let me bring a new car to my neighbor after I buy it. They might let my neighbor take a look at it and render an opinion before I buy it, but most auction houses will do the same thing. They'll send you bigger scans, many will let you come in and see the cards, and I've even heard of some smaller auction houses shipping cards directly to potential bidders for evaluation. But the hobby, in general, has recognized experts in the field of authentication and grading, both of which have developed their good standing with a decade of respectable work, consumer confidence, brand-building, and all the other things that legitimate businesses need to do in order to legitimize themselves in the eyes of their industry. They do, indeed, make mistakes - same as Toyota occasionally builds a lemon - but that does not make them any less qualified to do their jobs. And the industry recognizes them as such. -Al

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09-20-2007, 04:18 PM

Posted By: leonWhat best graders has Kevin got stuff past? Mike Baker said he knows of no cards Kevin has got past GAI. And you say "graders" meaning plural....please elaborate....Has he got stuff by SGC?

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09-20-2007, 04:23 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, Kevin has told me things that he may have meant to be in confidence or perhaps I misunderstood. Either way, best if anyone addressed it that its him. Jim

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09-20-2007, 04:23 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJim, Would you be willing to bypass having an expert examine a card if your return privilege was unconditional? Basically, you could return the card any time you wanted to within a year. Peter C.

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09-20-2007, 04:29 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Yes although its sort of a ridiculous premise. So a have a lifelong option to put the card back to the dealer--I wish everything were like that. Al, I hope you are right--my sense is that the card doctors have at times and may in the future be ahead of the grading companies.

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09-20-2007, 04:59 PM

Posted By: Rand Brotmanif a buyer wins a graded card, why does the auction house have to be responsible when the 3rd party is the one that certified it? Jim C has a ton of high grade psa cards, but they were graded along time ago, i would think there could be many over graded cards in those old holders... maybe Kevin should see those first. so if Jim has 100 psa 8's that are really 7's should he get the difference back from psa?

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09-20-2007, 05:14 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThats really intelligent Rand--discussion ended.

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09-20-2007, 05:59 PM

Posted By: Rand BrotmanNo offense Jim, but old psa graded cards are dicey in todays world, i wonder how many of your psa 8 - 9 - 10's would really garner those grades if resubmitted today. anyhow, why should any auction house have to give a guarantee when its in a psa holder. psa should stand behind their cards, especially the overgraded & trimmed ones.

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09-21-2007, 05:37 AM

Posted By: PSIn my opinion it is unreasonable to expect an auctioneer like Barry selling cards that have already been authenticated and graded by independent experts to make a sale of a consigned card contingent on further review by another grader. This extends to another grading service, and certainly to any individuals not generally accepted as experts in the field. When one buys a graded card one is buying the opinion of the company that slabbed it -- period. If an obvious, blatant mistake has been made such that an experienced auctioneer knows there is a problem, that is another matter. But short of that, a business selling consignments cannot realistically offer a right of return based on a further review by the buyer's choice of reviewer.

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09-21-2007, 05:45 AM

Posted By: barrysloateTo take Peter's point a step further, even if I agreed to such a contingency my consignors very well may not, and I wouldn't blame them. And if I start losing my consignors, my business ceases to exist. If I sell a card that was graded by one of the big three I feel I have done my due diligence. People can argue with this point but there is only so much I can do. If every graded card is subject to further review I will get calls two months after consignors are paid asking for a refund. No auction house would allow such a thing to happen. I guess every transaction has some risk, however small.

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09-21-2007, 05:47 AM

Posted By: ChadI'm getting way too much pleasure from Bruce's posts. It's gotten to where I'm disappointed if I come to the BOARD and he doesn't have a post up. --Chad

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09-21-2007, 05:49 AM

Posted By: PSBarry you are right, and the right of return doubtless would be abused by people who decided they paid too much, or couldn't flip the card as they expected, and so on.

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09-21-2007, 06:41 AM

Posted By: AnonymousBarry, As I said you have to run your business and in my opinion you are unquestionably honest--but like many others you may not have the expertise to tell if a card has been tampered with before it got slabbed. Peter, It may be unreasonable but when dealers who do not sell cards at auction but via the old fashioned way are willing to offer that service it makes it easy to decide where I should buy my cards if given the choice.

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09-21-2007, 07:09 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- You are absolutely correct. I have neither the expertise nor the eyesight to detect a subtle alteration. And that's why we all send tons of money to the big three grading companies. I, or my consignor, pays them a fee for the expertise that they have, and we don't, to detect the alterations. That's why when you buy a house you pay a building inspector to look for termites and structural flaws. He has the expertise that the buyer and seller don't. I will repeat for the 187th time- let the big three do the work we pay them for. I can only do so much.

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09-21-2007, 07:15 AM

Posted By: randhere we go again, instead of Jim C looking to hold his beloved PSA accountable, he wants to hold the dealer or auction house responsible for his purchase. WHY is it anybodys responsibility to guarantee the card once PSA has done their part? if Jim buys another vaunted psa 9 or 10 he should take it up with PSA if the card is misgraded. Barry does not have to be an expert, or anyone else for that matter, if the card was sent to the # 1 grading service in the world and they put their opinion in a plastic holder it should be a non issue "Right?" Jim wants to BLAME sellers instead of going to the source. What if Jim's psa 10's are mostly 9's in todays world or even worse....trimmed, ever so slightly...Who ya gonna call???

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09-21-2007, 07:25 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellRand, Are you a troll using a different name than your real one?

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09-21-2007, 07:34 AM

Posted By: randhave nothing to hide. never have. what's a troll? You express your opinions, have i called you an abrasive name?

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09-21-2007, 07:36 AM

Posted By: Steve Murray"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response."

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09-21-2007, 07:38 AM

Posted By: randthanks, i did not know that.

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09-21-2007, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Paul MossOne of the reasons we employ the services of grading companies is to establish a mutually acceptable plateau of what a card is, and its relative value commensurate to the assigned grade. We pay for this service which encompasses more than just entombing a card in plastic. As we deal with the major grading services, those who guarantee the authenticity and particular grade of a card with a check should the card not prove to be as they had originally ascertained, why on God's green earth should a dealer be expected a year later to refund the purchase price of a card because that particular card might not be as the grading company had originally established? Take it up with the grading service, not the dealer. Sure, altered stuff slips through the cracks, it's a given considering the time allocated to inspecting the card by the respective company. What do people expect given the relative low costs of grading? Overall, the percentage of stuff getting through is small nowadays. Sure, there's plenty of crap in many of the early slabs of the grading companies, I mean cards that have been worked over harder than a hooker at a bachelor party, but the overall number today is much smaller. For the relative low costs in grading, coupled with their respective guarantees, it's a bargain. Did I just hear "Spend more time evaluating the card" from the back of the room? OK, are you willing to pay what it would take to really give a card a truly thorough examination? I mean running the card under different UV frequencies, various color filters, microscopic examination of areas and edges that are questionable, electronic calipers for overall paper thickness, and the tried and true eyes of someone who has been around the block? Sorry, but if I sold a slabbed card from a major company a year or two or three ago, and you now don't like it. I'd have to say sorry. I paid for that company's expertise and guarantee, and we both accepted these facts at the time of sale.

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09-21-2007, 08:08 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliBingo. Thanks, Paul. In your ability to crystallize concepts and articulate them in writing, you have a gift. -Al

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09-21-2007, 08:11 AM

Posted By: MattPaul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?

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09-21-2007, 08:14 AM

Posted By: leonRand (hi Rand) is not a troll, he has his email up, and has his full name up many times. I don't always agree with him but I respect his opinions as I do everyone elses. If he were remaining anonymous he would have already been banned.....

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09-21-2007, 08:18 AM

Posted By: cmokingI see absolutely nothing wrong with JimC or anyone else asking a dealer to give him return priviledges and telling them he's sending the card to someone else (in this case, Kevin) for approval. If the dealer is not interested in that, then he doesn't have to agree, and there's no sale. Or the buyer has to take the risk himself if he wants to. How often has a guy bought a card in a SGC/PSA holder, only to find that it didn't cross to the other company, and then re-sell it...I think it happens fairly often since people like consistency with their sets. It looks like Barry isn't interested in doing that (and neither would I if I were an auction house with material on consignment), so Jim won't bid. No big deal, two reasonable people have decided they can't meet each other's requirements, and there's no deal. It happens all the time in life and business, it doesn't mean they have to be antagonists. I know some guys have cards in PSA holders sent to SGC (and vice versa), and then they only purcahse if the card crosses. That's pretty much the same thing, except the parties are identifiying PSA and SGC as the independent evaluators. Substitute someone else' name, and its no different. Again, the seller doesn't have to agree. I know many sellers wouldn't agree to let anyone send their card in a PSA holder (or SGC) to the rival company and only buy it if it crosses...that's fine too.

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09-21-2007, 08:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat if I sell a card in an SGC holder, the buyer gets it and shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it could be altered? The only thing we know with absolute certainty is one of them is right and the other is wrong. But which one? In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?

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09-21-2007, 08:26 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayI agree with King. I presume that both sides of the transaction are free to negotiate terms mutually agreeable to them. If the terms are unacceptable on either side they don't have to do the deal, or in the case of an auction house, one just doesn't have to bid. Seems simple enough to me.

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09-21-2007, 08:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSteve- I couldn't agree with you more. When you are in business you try to please everybody, but you simply can't. I don't expect everyone who receives a catalog will bid (typically 10-15% actually do participate) and I can't expect 100% of my customers to agree with all my policies. I know that going in. But I do the best I can. If I sell a card that has been graded, it's pretty much all sales are final. It would take something major for me to refund money on a slabbed card, though it is within the realm of possibility. Bidders know this and make their decisions accordingly. They are all free to bid or not to bid.

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09-21-2007, 08:36 AM

Posted By: Paul MossKing I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. We've all been involved in Byzantine, complicated, multi party five-way deals that are structured where sale X will transpire providing trade Y goes through to party A who will underwite the purchase as soon as payment comes through from auction house Z. I see no difference.

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09-21-2007, 08:45 AM

Posted By: Paul Moss"Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?" For $10, you'll receive a 15-30 second examination under a high intensity light by a grader sitting at a cubicle in a pitch black room reminiscent of a depressing bombshelter who'll assign a grade, two pieces of plastic sealed together with an ultrasonic sealer, and a paper label.

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09-21-2007, 08:48 AM

Posted By: MattPaul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described? BTW, here's PSA's stated process: <a href="http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml</a>

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09-21-2007, 09:01 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing--exactly--Steve, Barry--we are all saying the same thing. Hypothetically Barry, to meet my criteria--how about if I bid and won psa high end cards at your auction and we made the sale contingent upon sgc saying the cards were legit--would you agree to it then? Again not that they would grade it the same number--only that they would say it has not been tampered with? Paul, In terms of a return privlege to a dealer that sold me the card, the deal would be that it has to be sent out immediately--its not an indefinate return privlege.

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09-21-2007, 09:11 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, Are you saying that "Kevin Saucier" can erase the value of a graded card simply by claiming that it is altered in the holder? Because if so, I think you might want to consider re-valuing your collection. The beauty of a graded card is that it bears the brand and credibility of the grading company along with the cardboard inside the holder. When you buy a graded card, you are essentially buying the cardboard and the flip. Without those precious flips from the grading services all of our cards would be worth alot less. Furthermore, once a card has a flip from a credible grading company there is nothing "Kevin Saucier" can do to lower the value. Talk talk talk all he wants, a PSA 8 or an SGC 88 will sell on the open market at a market price. If you want to grade the graders and demand every card pass the personal inspection of "Kevin Saucier" ok, but remember when you try to sell your cards I hope "Kevin" is not in country. For every card he keeps you from buying now (that is graded by PSA or SGC) conversely he might keep someone else from buying when and if your cards hit the auction block. Do you really want "Kevin's" opinion to supercede your 25,000 flips when the time comes to sell? I would argue those flips not the cardboard inside your 25,000 cards are the buttress to any value in your collection. CB

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09-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- that's a reasonable request, but I would still have to run it by my consignor. He would have to sign off on it. If he said absolutely not, I would be forced to respectfully decline.

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09-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusJim, Suppose an auction house sells a slabbed card. The new owner sends it to another grading service to have it put in their slab, only to be provided with incontrovertible evidence the card has been altered. The new owner then makes a demand to the auction house to have the sale rescinded and his money refunded. The auction house agrees to refund the money contingent on the consignor returning to the auction house the proceeds of the sale. Question -- What should the consignor do?

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09-21-2007, 09:15 AM

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- this would likely be done before the consignor was paid. I would expect a bidder to state this as a contingency of his bidding; therefore, the money would be held in escrow while the card was being reviewed.

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09-21-2007, 09:23 AM

Posted By: Paul Moss"Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?" Though being a sarcastic butthead is one of my claims to fame, in this particular case, no. A card will be measured if it doesn't look right, but as a matter of procedure for each and every card, no way. The more one handles cards, the easier it is to spot that which is out of the normal accepted parameters. Having toured two of the three major companies, the environment is as described. If I worked under the conditions graders do, I'd become a homicidal maniac by lunchtime on the first day of employment. Jim Not trying to bust your chops here. As I stated, if the conditions of sale are established upfront relating to a second opinion, and we agree ahead of time, no problem whatsoever. As for the crossover aspect eh, I suppose it depends on the deal at the time. Of course, if it not only crosses, but comes back at a higher grade, there would of course be a proviso that I am duly compensated accordingly. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> The house has to have a little edge in this type of deal.

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09-21-2007, 09:27 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasBarry, Don't quit your day job. The vast majority of collectors are very comfortable with graded cards and the process of buying them at auction. Your Auction comes with alot of integrity and I for one will be bidding. However, I have saved up a few questions and I be calling you tonight during the extended bidding to discuss. Smiley Face. CB

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09-21-2007, 09:45 AM

Posted By: leonCommunication is key, guys. I bought this blue Old Put from one of Barry's auctions about 3-4 years ago. It was raw and the sale was contingent upon it getting a numerical grade. Barry was informed beforehand and had no issue......it worked out perfectly. This stuff is easy if you communicate timely and effectively....regards <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1190303123.JPG">

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09-21-2007, 09:54 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThanks Charlie, and I hope the questions aren't too difficult! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> At the time Leon bought that blue Old Put he was just an acquaintance, but I was impresed by how well he communicated and how quickly he got the card graded. There was never an issue.

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09-21-2007, 09:54 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellGuys, All I want to do is take precautions I am not buying a card that has been altered. Whether its Kevin that gives a card a second look or Mike Baker or one of Dave's guys that is immaterial. If I am spending $10,000 for a card at this point I want someone elses opinion before I buy it. Charlie--why is that unreasonable? Corey, The auctioneer would make clear going into the auction what the conditions are. Under what you described, buyer would be out of luck but if 2 sides agreed up front purchase of PSA card contingent upon SGC saying card was legit then auctioneer having discussed this with consigner beforehand would be obligated to make good on money if card viewed by SGC as altered.

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09-21-2007, 09:56 AM

Posted By: shane leonardBut this thread is really stupid. There should be no reason why Barry or any other auction house should offer a guarantee on cards that are authenticated. Not to sound like Bruce, but WE are trusting PSA and SGC to do their jobs by buying their products. If they screw up in grading a card, they have insurance to protect them from lawsuit or errors. Just like a doctor, insurance agent, lawyer and stock broker, WE all carry e/o insurance to protect our clients. The blame belongs to the grading company and not the seller/auction house. Jim, Kevin has more knowledge than 99% of the people we know. I know you respect his opinion and value his friendship, but you got to drop this idea of having him view every card you purchase. You know the guys that are true to this industry. Keep buying from them and don't worry about it. It's not as if you are some spring chicken and you need help with this. If you get a card that is fishy, take it up with the grading company. They will make good on it. Regards, Shane

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09-21-2007, 09:56 AM

Posted By: cmokingBarry: "In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?" Sure...why not? but if you agreed to use Kevin's (or someone else's) opinion before the transaction, then that's a different story. If there was no agreement on another eye looking at the card before the transaction, then a buyer shouldn't expect to get a refund.

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09-21-2007, 09:59 AM

Posted By: cmokingPaul: "I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. " We are in agreement on both counts.

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09-21-2007, 10:08 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I want you to tell me how you would handle the following situation, and you have to put yourself in the consignor's position to answer it. Suppose you consign a valuable PSA 8 to my auction. The winning bidder sends it to SGC, and they deem it trimmed. They then place it in an "altered" sleeve and I return it to you as such. So this expensive card that left your hands as an 8 comes back in a sleeve that renders it near worthless. How would you handle this (I know SGC could technically look at it without removing it from the holder, but that is very unscientific as they would not be able to examine the edges)?

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09-21-2007, 10:10 AM

Posted By: cmokingI don't see how any contingency can be expected from the buyer's perspective in an auction format. There are usually two other parties involved (the underbidder and the consignor), it makes it super-complicated.

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09-21-2007, 10:11 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I would expect SGC to look at it without taking it out of the holder.

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09-21-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: leonThe contingency Barry and I had was only that the raw card was unaltered and authentic. I would guess his consignor was a stand up guy too and had no issue with that. I know you wouldn't and neither would I.....On graded cards it's completely different....

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09-21-2007, 10:13 AM

Posted By: shane leonardJim, I understand that the closer you get in finishing your goal of 100 sets in PSA 8 or better will be very expensive cards ($10K or more). Why don't you employee Kevin to review these cards before an auction or perhaps at a major show have him review those cards from the dealer? I understand doing what you are talking about with the expensive cards. I would want to know as well. I just don't think it is fair to the auction house to take the card back after the fact. He loses a consignor or a potential buyer either way. Shane

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09-21-2007, 10:15 AM

Posted By: peter chaoIn a way, dealing with a graded card is more difficult because there is already an opinion (grading co.) that says the card is legitimate and cosignor and auction house is relying on that opinion. Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 10:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellShane, I agree--good ideas. I do not expect Barry or another house to take the card back unless there was an agreement up front. DiMag sent out Tuesday morning insured registered. Jim

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09-21-2007, 10:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- SGC can and will look at a card and leave it in the holder, but they would be the first to admit it's not an ideal way to review it. They might make a mistake since the edges are hidden.

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09-21-2007, 10:22 AM

Posted By: randOK, seems we are moving in the right direction with not holding the auction house directly responsible for graded cards...BUT from my personal experiences with 8's or higher...how about the grading company...when i try to cross psa to sgc, trimming is not really the issue as it is flaws/standards that keep it from an 88, what about GAI cards in high grade..i have run into problems there most of the time. what about a buyer trying to get a GAI card crossed....even if its sent to psa and sgc for review..???

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09-21-2007, 10:23 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, You have 25,000 flips from PSA? How many "Kevin Saucier" flips do you have? Why would you assert that you have more confidence in the talents of a guy who has no flips on the market? Personally, I would rather own an altered card in a PSA or SGC holder than own a dead original card in a "Kevin Saucier" holder. Look at in reverse, try to convince someone to pay SMR for a "PRO" graded card with the assertion that "Kevin Saucier" says its not altered. CB Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable.

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09-21-2007, 10:29 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, But the best of all worlds is having a vintage psa 9 with Kevin's seal of approval that is legit. Noone is talking about collecting PRO cards here. I don't get it--you would admit there are at least some altered cards in PSA or SGC holders--if I am paying a substantial amount of money for a card why not if I have an option to get an independent second opinion take advantage of that option?

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09-21-2007, 10:37 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim: Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of anyone here, but I have a question. Would you ask for a PSA9 with Charlie's seal of approval? Or mine? Or Leon's? In other words, let's say I win the Global T205 Walter Johnson in Barry's auction (please, nobody bid on it, I'd like it). I receive the card in the mail after I've paid for it. Then I show it to, say, King, and King tells me he thinks it's been trimmed on the right edge. Global, by putting it in a holder, has rendered an opinion that the card is unaltered. Should I then have the right to go back to Barry and get a refund on the card, because an independent second opinion (King) says it's been trimmed? -Al EDIT: Please note that I don't think the card - which is real - is trimmed. I should probably have used a hypothetical example instead of a real card in a real auction. Sorry about that.

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09-21-2007, 10:38 AM

Posted By: randJim, i think we can take this a step further...just like a Ruth bat, the auction house can get a LOA/COA from a couple of different sources...why not a $10,000+ card, why cant the auction house send it to psa & sgc for both approvals? would the card be worth a premium if passed by both company's? interesting concept if the bidders wanted it.

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09-21-2007, 10:39 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusFrom an earlier voluminous thread discussing various legal issues facing the hobby, I had opined that there exists a real risk down the road that auction houses might indeed be held liable should slabbed cards in fact turn out to be altered IF the auction house when selling them did not make adequate disclosure of that possibility. Reasonable people of course can differ as to the merits of this opinion, but that is how I feel. With that said, though, I think it is inconsistent for people to expect the auction house in such instances to rescind the sales and refund the money without also expecting the consignor, especially one who knew or should have known of the issue of slabbed altered cards and was content to let the auction house sell the cards without adequate disclosure, to refund the proceeds of the sale to the auction house.

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09-21-2007, 10:40 AM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable." Thanks, seeing my name in so many quotes was not looking so good (LOL).

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09-21-2007, 10:42 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, I had to acknowledge that there might be an altered card in a holder because by your defintion of alteration, if a person breathes on a card it becomes radioactive. CB

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09-21-2007, 10:42 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, I hate to say it but this is starting to become a battle of the experts. When you add 3d party opinions where does it stop, does the auction house then look for another expert who says the graded card is legitimate? How much time and money are you willing to spend? Suppose the experts disagree? Wasn't the initial SGC, PSA grading suppose to help us avoid all this? Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 10:44 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAl- you got me nervous for a moment there. Let's use hypothetical cards in our examples. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-21-2007, 10:51 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, You are being ridiculous--we are talking if the card is trimmed. You think there are no trimmed cards in PSA or SGC holders. Assuming you will admit that there are, why should I take the risk for $10,000 that I may be getting one of them? Al, No--I would not--although I consider you, King and Charlie highly knowledgeable card guys I do not believe you have the same level of expertise as Kevin. And as I said before, I don't believe you have any rights unless you reach an explicit agreement with Barry before the auction.

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09-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Posted By: WesleyJim, Have you already had any your cards reviewed by Kevin? Just wondering why you have so much confidence in Kevin and so little confidence in PSA, SGC and GAI.

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09-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellRand, I missed your earlier question. Yes--for a very expensive item, I think if both PSA and SGC signed off then it would make me bid or bid more.

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09-21-2007, 11:03 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, Once again, If the card is trimmed in the holder but it is the correct size, has alot of eye appeal and says PSA or SGC on label you are not taking a huge risk? You are protected by the market acceptance of their brand. CB

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09-21-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWesley, I do not have little confidence in the grading companies. Just answer these questions honestly. 1)Do you believe there are any trimmed cards in holders 2)Would you want to take the risk of getting one--especially if you buy from someone who says that if GAI or SGC or Kevin say its altered then I will not make you buy it?

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09-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI have to say Charlie is making a very good point. In a perfect world the graders would get it right every time. But if a card in a PSA or SGC holder has a tiny alteration that is not perceptible to the naked eye, it's going to trade at market price every time it is offered. On the other hand, if Kevin deems a graded card altered, he may be right on the money but I'm not sure the market would listen. I think Charlie hit the nail on the head.

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09-21-2007, 11:09 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, We are not talking about resale value here. Knowing you have an altered card in your collection is enough for me to want to do it. There is a person who is participating in this discussion(I am not outing him) who has had Kevin look at a lot of his cards and I think come to the conclusion that he had some altered cards in his collection. I suspect he feels the same way I do about these issues.

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09-21-2007, 11:10 AM

Posted By: WesleyHonestly, Jim, unless there is a glaring problem (like a badly flared or crimped corner or wrinkle) then I am usually ok with the opinion of one of the major grading companies. If the card is very expensive, then prior to the conclusion of the sale or auction, I either ask to inspect the card or have the seller describe the card to me.

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09-21-2007, 11:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Disagree completely--I think true collectors would tell you its not just about the money, its knowing you don't have an altered card in your collection. If someone offered you 2 psa 8 T206s Barry for your collection and for sake of argument they looked identical but in reality one was microtrimmed on one side would you want the unaltered one more--of course you would--Charlie's argument is that if its in a holder and looks like a good card whats the difference? I couldn't disagree more.

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09-21-2007, 11:15 AM

Posted By: rand brotmanJim, i really value your opinion here...you have a huge significant amount of money in your psa cards. you have been buying these cards for many years and have a huge presense on the Registry. i have 2 questions...at what point did you start to be concerned with the "quality" of the cards... meaning at some point you must have started to not blindly buy the holder anymore and question the card... 2nd, you are so heavily invested with psa, wouldnt you feel slighted or cheated if some of the cards were trimmed and PSA did not reimburse you for them????

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09-21-2007, 11:21 AM

Posted By: peter chaoRand, It would be ridiculous for PSA to reimburse Jim, if that happened the grading companies would be out of business. Or alternatively they would have to charge huge fees and only very few cards would get graded. If PSA refunded only the grading fees, that would be kind of useless. Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellRand, I never blindly bought the holder on expensive cards. Have been increasingly concerned about theis issue in recent years. Started when PSA went to the one-and-out grading system from having two graders look at a card BEFORE it went in the holder. Secondly, wouldn't I feel slighted or cheated--probably would.

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09-21-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Thats not right. I had a SGC Evers Portrait SGC 88 graded by Joe Merkel and Dave Forman decided it was trimmed and paid me the full market value of the card. I would expect PSA to do the same.

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09-21-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, I have seen cards come straight out of vending boxes come back "evidence of trimming". Grading is an opinion, it is not an exact science. Nobody can be certain 100% of the time. Not even your boy. CB

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09-21-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: WesleyJim, So on the cards graded by PSA or SGC, that you showed to Kevin, what percentage were deemed altered?

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09-21-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: barrysloateOf course Jim I would want the unaltered card. But Charlie's point has to do with market acceptance. I think I've been around the hobby a pretty long time but if it's my word against SGC's or PSA's, nobody gives a hoot about my opinion. And that's what Charlie is saying about Kevin- it's possible he is more skilled than the graders but the market probably won't listen to him either.

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09-21-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: PASThis is what you said on another thread within the past day or two. "Lastly, I don't believe any of my sets or cards have problems." So if you have been able to accumulate your incredible collection without purchasing any cards that concerned you, why are you so worried?

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09-21-2007, 11:38 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWesley, You are fishing but I was not referring to myself--Kevin to date has not seen any of my cards. Charlie, I agree but still I want that second opinion whether its from SGC, Kevin or Mike. Peter, That was in response to someone who suggested that I send in my sets or cards that have problems--I said I am not aware that any have problems although mathematically speaking there obviously are ones that do. Who said I was worried about cards I have--Peter I don't appreciate you ascribing emotions toward me that I don't have--I am talking about new expensive card purchases here. Barry, And my point was market acceptance is only one factor--most collectors would want to know if they truly have an unaltered card.

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09-21-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: PASJim, thank you for the clarification. I was not ascribing anything to you, merely trying to understand what you were saying.

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09-21-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: rand brotmanAmazing isnt it?.....Graded NM-MT + cards are still suspicious even after 15 years of "professional" grading. ****Jim, i think this has been a spirited conversation that has been well recieved*** thanks

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09-21-2007, 11:45 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSame thing I said before Peter--you are taking a snippet of a sentence I said and put it in a context that it was not meant for.

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09-21-2007, 11:45 AM

Posted By: peter chaoAn auctioneer or dealer may very well do extra to please Jim. But how about the rest of us who buy paltry $100-$500 cards, do we have to settle for more uncertainty about the legitimacy of our cards? Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 11:47 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellRand, This is the main reason I participate on NET54--discussion about the serious issues facing the hobby--as long as it doesn't get nasty and personal I love it.

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09-21-2007, 11:52 AM

Posted By: PASMaybe someday soon we will actually see "double-graded" expensive cards although I am not sure how the logistics of that would work.

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09-21-2007, 11:54 AM

Posted By: rand brotmanJim, what if you have a psa 10 graded 10 years ago. Kevin sees that its trimmed, no doubt in his mind. what would you do?

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09-21-2007, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Marc S.that was double-graded a while back. And I do specifically recall a high-grade Mantle that Mastro had a few years back where they guaranteed it would cross to at least an 8 level.

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09-21-2007, 11:57 AM

Posted By: WesleyThe Mantle was in an old SBC holder and in the text of the auction itself, Mastro guaranteed an 8 from PSA.

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09-21-2007, 12:03 PM

Posted By: PASHow did the Lajoie work, one company slabbed it and another issued some sort of opinion letter?

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09-21-2007, 12:07 PM

Posted By: WesleyPeter, I think it was in a PSA slab, but there was a tamper-proof GAI sticker on the slab's seal. When GAI first started, they offered a second opinion service called "exemplar" or something and they reviewed slabbs without breaking the existing holders.

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09-21-2007, 12:11 PM

Posted By: PASWes that makes sense. I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL. EDITED TO ADD I don't see how one can meaningfully review an expensive prewar card without examining it out of the holder.

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09-21-2007, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Dean HIf my memory serves correct I think Global tried that early on. They would put a holographic sticker with their grade on the back of a card that was already slabbed. I don't know if that is what happened with the Lajoie but just sharing what I remembered. Edited. I see I was a little slow with the response. Wesley explained it correctly. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-21-2007, 12:16 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellRand, Its hypothetical as I have never showed any of my cards to Kevin.

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09-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, Unless you are willing to get a second opinion on all 25,000 cards in your collection, it is incongruent to be so obsessed with getting a second opinion on the 25,001 card in your collection. The best way to get a second opinion on a graded card is to send it in for review. Alternatively, if you are looking for another opinion, send it to another grading service for crossover. Lastly, you could always breakout all of your 25,000 cards and send them in raw for a clean slate. My advice, use your self as the second opinion. Buy cards that look great in the holder and don't worry if it looks bad to someone else using a spectron microscope. CB

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09-21-2007, 12:45 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, I do things my way--there are plenty of dealers I buy from that would be happy to make my purchase contingent upon Mike or Kevin or whoever I choose approve the card.

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09-21-2007, 12:55 PM

Posted By: pasI think someone could spot obvious alterations without removing a card from a slab, but I am not sure anyone could express a definitive opinion that a card was NOT altered without examining the edges outside a holder. If Kevin or others disagree I would be interested.

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09-21-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, Mike Baker gets paid for his opinion, quite different from Kevin. Speaking of which, Mike Baker is among the best if not the best. He has an amazing eye. He is also one of my favorite guys in the hobby. I would rather you use him as your second opinion. So how many of your cards are you going to cross into GAI holders? CB

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09-21-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayAnd therein lies the beauty of a free enterprise system. The parties are free to negotiate terms to their mutual satisfaction.

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09-21-2007, 01:02 PM

Posted By: peter chaoI agree with you, also I think the grading cos. use cheap plastic. The card looks good but the plastic is merely translucent and not clear. Furthermore, the plastic scratches, after a while you start wondering whether the scratch is on the cardholder or the card. Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 01:09 PM

Posted By: pasNovus Plastic Polish No. 2 does wonders for anything but the deepest scratches.

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09-21-2007, 01:12 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, I would pay both Kevin and Mike for their opinion--probably the same amount--why should there be a difference? I too think Mike has an amazing eye, I think he is the top grader in the hobby and I consider him a personal friend. I am trying to build over 100 vintage psa 8 and better sets Charlie--crossing some over would set me back--saying that Mike has authenticated packs for me and a number of cards that PSA does not grade.

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09-21-2007, 01:15 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL." It been done! <img src="http://images1.collectors.com/psa/set_registry/m585906/71garvey.JPG"> Mike Baker and I were having some fun. The authentic grade is for the autograph which is on the outside of the PSA slab. Kevin

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09-21-2007, 01:16 PM

Posted By: peter chaoLet's say there was an amazing grader or grading company that you trusted, would you be willing to allow them to regrade the cards you bought 10 years ago? Let's say that somebody else was picking up the tab for the regrading, an outside third party. Would you be willing to take the chance that your PSA 9 was really a PSA 8? Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 01:25 PM

Posted By: pasI guess we have had this discussion before but I don't see why "10 year old" cards are any more suspect than cards being graded today.

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09-21-2007, 01:28 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, You are right to be paranoid about trimmed cards in holders. However, if the card does not look trimmed in the holder and it is graded as such, the market place is going to accept the card. No matter what any third party, that does not work for a professional grading service says. If your goal is to build sets on the PSA registry, why on earth would you care what someone other than the graders at PSA think? CB

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09-21-2007, 01:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellCharlie, Because I want my cards to be completely unaltered--if it looked great but I knew it was altered I would not like the card. I know for a fact others feel that way too Charlie.

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09-21-2007, 01:32 PM

Posted By: pasI think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion. Thus, it seems rational (at least to an observer) that the opinion that should matter most is that of PSA.

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09-21-2007, 01:35 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJim, Here's the problem, if you want to go through this new procedure with the cards you are buying. Why not go through the same procedure with cards you have already bought? Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 02:03 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasPeter, Well said. Jim, You are an astute collector and I am not trying to tell you how to collect cards. But, I think layering professionally third party graded cards with opinions from non-professional third party graders is a slippery slope. Anybody who is making definative judgements regarding alteration without seeing the card out of the holder, is making an educated guess. If you want to be as certain as you can regarding alterations, the card must be broken out of the holder for a proper evaluation. There are some cards even out of the holder that exhibit both signs of originality and evidence of trimming. Some factory cuts look like trimming and some trimming looks like a factory cut. In this case, it is really a coin flip and it is not knowable wheter the card was trimmed or not. Therefore, it is up to a professional third party grading company to stand behind the desicion to grade it or not. And once the decision is made you have the power of the brand and credibility of said grading company as your insurance policy. CB

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09-21-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHave we exhausted this topic yet?

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09-21-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanIsn't Jim's position that he doesn't want to cost himself money by having his entire collection reviewed, but, at least going forward, does not want to spend large bucks on altered/slabbed cards? Why do these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive?

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09-21-2007, 02:21 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"I think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion." IMO grading is more an art, alteration detection is more science. In most cases the opinion is based on one or more objective findings. To answer an earlier question; it is much more difficult to inspect a card in a holder, taking about 4x as long. When the card is tight against the holder, sometimes an accurate assessment cannot be made at all. btw…hi Peter! Charlie is correct, once graded, the flip now becomes more important than the card to some collectors. Al – you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed. Kevin Saucier

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09-21-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Alan ElefsonThey are not mutually exclusive as Jim is asking auctioneers to stand behind every card they are consigned while he refuses to let his own collection be inspected in a similar manner. Jim, this question has been asked before (and I cannot remember your answer), when you go to sell one (or all of your cards), will you stand behind it the way you are asking Barry and his consigners to do so? Will you "take the hit" on any cards that are reviewed and determined to be altered in some way? If so, then while I disagree with what you are requesting, I at least do not see any hipocracy (sic) behind it. Alan Elefson aelefson@hotmail.com

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09-21-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: PSOnly Jim can decide what makes sense to him, and this is just a general observation, but I think many of us would view the position articulated by Jeff as inconsistent. If it makes a difference to you whether or not your cards are altered despite being slabbed, you can't just grandfather all the cards you already have.

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09-21-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: MattPeter - while it might make a difference to you, that doesn't mean you're going to undertake the job of having it done; after all, you own them already; you're can't un-buy them.

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09-21-2007, 03:51 PM

Posted By: PSMatt but you can sell them. My point is if it is of such paramount importance not to own altered cards, and one thinks one needs opinions beyond those of the grading services to ensure that, then logically it seems to me one would examine cards one already owns as well as new ones or at least cards over a certain value. Just an opinion on a subject where there is no right answer.

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09-21-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: MattPeter - I agree it makes sense for one to do it, but since there is a time and financial investment needed to make it happen, and you already own them, it might not get done. Now, if you were selling them, then I agree; but just to keep, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

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09-21-2007, 04:37 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMatt, that's my point: Jim has like 20,000 slabs -- what is he supposed to do? Spend all that time and money and have them regraded? Can't he just decide going forward to be much, much more careful with how he spends his money?

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09-21-2007, 05:22 PM

Posted By: LarryI keep hearing about how grading companies are stricter now than they were 10 or 15 years ago, but the majority of cards I see in old holders are more harshly graded. A card resting in a PSA-7 slab from 1995 would in most cases rate PSA-8 now. Nowhere is this more obvious than with pre-war cards when you line the slabs up side-by-side and compare card edge and corner wear. Just take a look at the T-205 cards that are rating PSA-7 now. The amount of chipping and corner wear they accept as Near Mint now is just plain idiotic. Ten years ago, those would have been resting in a PSA-6 holder.

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09-21-2007, 05:31 PM

Posted By: peter chaoLarry, Unfortunately PSA in particular has a lot of inconsistency. The reverse is also true. Some graded 10 years ago were given a lot of leeway and recently the same card is graded more leniently. Peter C.

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09-21-2007, 05:36 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJeff, Thank you--you articulated my position well. Alan, I have no plans to sell my cards. My son tells me he will take my collection to 200 sets PSA 8 and better. The Two Peters, I am not resubmitting my cards for the one millionth time no matter how much you want me too. There are a lot of big time PSA collectors(Merkel, Fogel, Spence, Branca , Louchios etc) and none of them are regrading their cards so knock it off now!

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09-21-2007, 08:32 PM

Posted By: PSJim I personally do not care at all whether you resubmit your cards or not, so as you say, please do not ascribe emotions to me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I do think, however, since you raised the subject of getting second opinions on new purchases, it is a fair discussion to ask about how your views on the necessity of second opinions applies to your existing collection. The question also goes beyond your personal collection and may be of interest to others facing similar issues although on a smaller scale. Perhaps you have stated your views on this before but if you did I missed them, so I was genuinely interested. That's all.

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09-21-2007, 09:11 PM

Posted By: leonI don't see any of the gentlemen you mentioned talk so incessantly about altering and cleaning up the hobby therefore they are held to a different standard, imo, than someone like yourself who is "leading" the charge .....but from the rear. I will always feel that your mesmerization with the whole issue is due to the number of high grade cards in your collection that you feel are probably tainted. Please don't consider this a personal attack as it's not and I am sure you will aggressively deny my opinion...it's ok......regards

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09-21-2007, 10:32 PM

Posted By: LawrenceJim C- I have brought this up to you before and this maybe a sore spot so clearly I will mention this politely so you do not get defensive: 1-If you want to really clean up the hobby, you need to really look at your own collection first, have Kevin S(someone you admire) really go through your collection and let you know the % of cards that "could be tainted" even if you want them to be kept by your family. Maybe you will be surprised since many of your posted cards are OLD labels and even though you think two graders graded this, they were far more naive as to what was going on then than now and the standards were so much looser than currently....and some of your nice cards are possibly now considered overgraded including the T205 in an 8 PSA holder that has white at the tip. 2-NO one should be obligated to give a money back guarantee on BRANDED THIRD PARTY cards graded except for the grading services that put the cards in the holder. If you are unhappy with your purchase, CONTACT AND PRESS THE SERVICE TO HONOR THEIR DECISION, they put that card in that holder, no dealer did that. If you are so confident that the grading services are correct about your 28,000 cards percentage wise, then maybe you should feel that same way about the majority of cards comparably graded at the same ratio that others possess...or consider that maybe a given percentage of your high grade cards especially early ### cards may have been tainted, and maybe sold to you by those you think are so knowledgable........ 3-There are quality tiers of auction houses and their reliability , no question, however there are many reliable dealers that sell at shows, e bay etc...and they are subject to the same rules that Barry Sloate has stated, we rely on third party graders to make the decisions of gradability. Collectors and Dealers are not responsible for that decision, and we are all paying for a branded product. If that was not the case why wouldn't you would crack all your cards out if you did not care? Certainly, Mr. Louchious, Spence etc. and other advanced collectors are very important to this hobby and are still buying what they need currently. They are continually active thru e bay, private sales or auction houses. Currently PSA, SGC and GAI are all MUCH tougher now. I really do not know how much you currently spend in the hobby, nor is it my business, but those above mentioned are extremely important to the hobby NOW, not 5-10 years ago. I admire your collection and best wishes for you and your family.

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09-21-2007, 10:53 PM

Posted By: JohnStill waiting to hear what amazing cards Kevin has so skillfully passed by folks (SGC, PSA, GAI etc.) as Jim eluded too, or has this wives tale yet to be addressed? Kevin you should have no problems showing us some pictures or telling us some stories either…after all as you openly stated below. “you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed.” Eagerly awaiting your response, its go time I’m excited to see what you’ve done, and how you’ve helped our little hobby out or made it a safer place!

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09-22-2007, 12:52 AM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierI have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least. Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways. I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning. If you do some research you will find plenty of examples I have posted in the past. Is it not enough that I try to help by posting educational material? <img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1896/33cohenjs9.jpg"> <img src="http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9263/33kolpft9.jpg"> Erasers are too easy. These were chemically treated instead. Seems PSA and SGC had no problems bumping the grades. I believe Cohen was also retoned. <img src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/280/improvedil7.jpg"> Each of these cards had harsh or large stains removed with various chemicals. Each was bumped by two grades...Easterly was bumped 3 grades, it was a BVG 1. <img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7034/33lindstromih6.jpg"> There is still a clear mark left intentionally on back along with some ink loss. It was also retoned. <img src="http://webpages.charter.net/sabrjay/altered/1911moran.JPG"> Graciously given to me by a collector friend. This card had a rebuilt corner and two "very obviously" trimmed edges. It took several steps and a lot of time to make it look normal. That includes giving the trimmed edges vintage-like cuts, which proves that a trimmed card can be made to look untrimmed... not easy to do at all. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child//psa6_bleached.jpg"> Testing the limits, this card was put in about 6 different chemicals. The last one I thought would melt the card. It was submitted with such a strong odor that it was almost unbelievable that a hazmat team was not called. Instead they graded it a 6. There is also a very obvious stain that was partially left on the back. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child//sgc_leach.jpg"> Stains and marks removed with a bleaching solution and sent in without deodorizing or trying to mask the alteration. You can see a bleached-out spot on front. Also, I can still see the indentation marks on the back...yet it still passed. ________________________________________ The mother of all doctoring examples: This was a T206 Rube Marquard card purchased with a huge glob of almost unremovable glue on the back, stained, dirty and dinged. In this condition it was virtually ungradeable and I doubt it would have even been slabbed "authentic" based on the relatively low value and poor condition. In all, this card went through over 30 steps, again to test the limits. This goes far beyond doctoring. It was placed in several different chemicals, bleached and rebleached about 4 times - each time using a different solution, toned and retoned a few times, dings removed, plus soaked dried at least a dozen times. The entire process took a couple weeks. Here is the card in the middle of the process. Note the glue has been removed (not by water) and it is shown in one of the "many" bleached-out stages. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/rube3aq9-1.jpg"> Here is how the card looked once completed. Submitted as you see it and without being deodorized. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/rubepsa.jpg"> If you notice there are no examples of GAI graded cards. Mike Baker (who I consider a friend and colleague) and I have a gentleman's agreement. Years ago he invited me down to Global's HQ and, after viewing a few very high-end altered cards, asked that I not try to get any past him. I have honored my word since. I now bring all my doctored cards to him. He gets full explanations and I reveal all my secrets. This is, in his opinion and mine, how the best gets better. Kevin Saucier

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09-22-2007, 05:44 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little. Of course he will say who me and turn his sarcasm to me but that's par for the course. Thanks once again for trying to help the hobby Kevin. Your efforts deserve their gratitude not their abuse. Lawrence, I know you mean well but simply put its not going to happen--not by me and not by any substantial holder of graded cards. I am happy with my cards--they all look good to me and I don't intend to sell them in my lifetime and I plan to live another 30-plus years. My goals are for the grading companies to become more diligent and stop altered cards from getting into holders. For those that are already in holders what is done is done. Sorry to disappoint you. Leon, My friend--you seem obsessed on trying to figure out why I am doing what I am doing rather than actually getting out there yourself and take a stand at the practices of the auction houses. Stop trying to be a psychologist. Meant in the same spirit as your comments toward me. In terms of leading the charge, I thought there was a good basis to go forward with a code of ethics to lead the hobby forward and even Mastro was dragged kicking and screaming to do something positive. I think Barry and Jeff had some constructive comments and perhaps one or two others but thats it. If people on here don't really care except for those who want me to resubmit my 28,000 cards then I am not going to press it. Cheers, Jim

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09-22-2007, 07:28 AM

Posted By: LawrenceJim C- I am not dissapointed, they are your cards but I would be interested in taking a random sample if they were mine just to get better insight to see what I have in problem cards...I hope you do not think that this is a personal gain for me, it really is not my intention nor do I go about under the pretext as someone that wants to revolutionize and clean up the hobby although I do not like the bad trimming that goes on. I have been around many years to see through smoke screens and the hobby has many. Still, it is a great hobby and it is just that to many on the boards here. You seem to be very knowledgable and fiscally intelligent, sometimes less said on open forums has more impact to many when you do post. There are many opinions that get posted here but one thing that seems to be shared by many that view, perceived pompousness does not add to leadership quality.

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09-22-2007, 07:49 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThanks Lawrence--good luck.

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09-22-2007, 10:59 AM

Posted By: JohnKevin, Thanks for posting, interesting but I’m not sure what I’m taking from it or can take from it. Yours is going to be a thankless job to a degree even you have to understand that. It’s easy to post pictures; I could do the same and claim that I had squeezed by all these grading companies with the above cards or any other picture of a graded card. What does it prove? If we take your word for it maybe it proves something, but if we don’t know you from “Adam” it could be just another guy on here with an eraser and an overblown story telling ability. Kevin not that it’s your fault, I do find your posts interesting to say the least. But I’m sorry if I can’t blindly leap into the you’re the super card expert, especially when people like Jim say that your opinion matters over that of an established company such as any of the named grading companies or auction houses. It’s going to take a lot more than handful of pictures and one line blurbs to garner you that respect. I hope you can see my point, you may find me arrogant ok whatever, but what I find even more arrogant is that you and or Jim think your word is more valuable than established auction houses and or grading companies from someone who is little more than a basement card experimenter or hobbyist. For you or Jim to expect any auction house to take cards back on your word alone is a bit arrogant…once again no offense but who are you again? Maybe I am hard on you who knows if I am I’m sorry, it’s just my take an my point of view hope you can understand where I'm coming from? Regards, John

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09-22-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: JohnJim, Don’t you get tired carrying that cross around all the time? I may be sarcastic Jim, but god you’re boring and predictable, I could set my watch to you guy. LOL “For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little.” Kevin if you’re looking at your arrogance meter it may have just peaked. Yes, perhaps one day Jim I will be as knowledgeable about this hobby as you and Kevin are…one can only hope I guess.

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09-22-2007, 11:18 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhat did I tell you!!!--my prediction came exactly true. I love it. Only this time he attacked you too Kevin. Lets see Kevin, you basement experimenter you, when did either one of us claim you were better than SGC or PSA. Only in the Wonka world can you offer yourself selflessly to help the hobby and get ridiculed for it.

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09-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, Wonka, Barry, and Dan are virtually the only guys on Net54 that have any objectivity and creativity when they post. So guys don't attack John or you will have an off-the-wall poster breathing down your backs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: WesleyJohn is right. There are a lot of guys who mess around with card and paper experiments in their basements. Some of them do this for fun (like Kevin) and others do it to slip by grading companies for profit. What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders? Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous.

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09-22-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWesley, You are setting up a straw man here--nobody said his opinion carries more than SGC or PSA --you are just repeating Wonka. Take the time to read all of Kevin's post on the other message board and I think you should change your mind.

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09-22-2007, 11:28 AM

Posted By: WesleyJim, Kevin has never reviewed any of your cards. You have never seen Kevin's work. How do you know of his expertise?

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09-22-2007, 11:28 AM

Posted By: peter chaoWes, The unfortunate part about having grading companies look at all your cards is that there's a whole new generation of collector's that have no idea on how to grade cards on their own. I'll put my personal judgment up against 75% of the PSA graders, because I have been informally grading cards for 20 years and I'm not blind yet. Although, I do feel that I am getting more and more nearsighted. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 11:30 AM

Posted By: WesleyPeter C, We're talking about more than grading cards and assigning numeric grades. We're talking about sophisticated alterations vs. basement experiments and what can get past the graders.

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09-22-2007, 11:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAs Wes said you can be sure there are plenty of people out there who make a handsome living from their basement experiments. And loads of these cards have gotten past the graders.

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09-22-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellYup--Peter is better than 9 of 12 of psa graders. Hard for me to say anything else here. Peter--maybe I should have you look at my cards instead of Kevin <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Wes--it is based on all the stories related to me, correspondence between us and what I have read here and other places. I think he is an expert--does he know more than the graders--certainly about some things--heck, he has taught the best grader in the hobby a few things.

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09-22-2007, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliWho is the best grader in the hobby? -Al

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09-22-2007, 11:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike. You may think differently Al but you cannot be completely objective.

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09-22-2007, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI asked a question, that's all. I didn't voice an opinion. -Al

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09-22-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellYou're right--thought this was a consensus view.

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09-22-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: John<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/boss_watch.gif"> Actually Jim, Wes or anyone else for that matter isn’t repeating me, just you. Or did you forget about the below comments in this very thread? Sure seems like your asking people to put Kevin’s professional opinion above that of the grading companies and or selected auction houses… And once again you only read what you want to, why not let Kevin and I debate this I actually am interested in Kevin’s thoughts and hope he can see my point of view as I try to grasp his. Believe it or not Jim we can do this with out you tagging along for the ride and tossing unnecessary fuel on the fire. “On our friend Kevin, while he may not have all the answers he certainly has recognized a fair amout of altered cards in holders and has shown the ability to get alterations by the best graders in the business. Not only did Kevin not pay me to say this but I am buying him dinner the week after next.” “By the way Barry if I bought something at your auction and sent it to Kevin to look at and he told me the card looked suspicious would you let me return the card?” “Lets let Barry answer it Peter--Barry if I bought 5 high end cards in your auction, sent them to Kevin and Kevin said in his opinion only two could he say with confidence have not been altered could I return the other 3???” “But to reiterate if I bought a $15,000 card off a dealer's sell list, I would say its contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. Dealer sends me card--I send to Kevin, Kevin returns card to me with his opinion and I either then send check to dealer or return the card.”

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09-22-2007, 11:45 AM

Posted By: peter chaoLitigation is a strange world, but here's a concept that may move the discussion forward. Don't bother with a third-party expert opinion until the lawsuit is filed. In other words if you do not trust a vendor with graded cards, don't buy from them. If there's a subsequent lawsuit then get a third-party opinion. Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 11:46 AM

Posted By: PASI have no opinion on who the best grader is but it seems the market does not necessarily have a consensus view that it is Mike, given where GAI cards seem to be selling relative to SGC and PSA.

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09-22-2007, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI would imagine that anybody who has a dog in this race would be unable to offer an unbiased opinion on who is the best grader in the hobby. Furthermore, I'm unaware of any way that collectors like us can tell which individual graded any particular card that's currently in a holder. So I'm not sure how to judge which individual person is the best grader. I know which companies I trust and which company I don't, but that's about as far as my limited knowledge can take me. -Al

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09-22-2007, 11:57 AM

Posted By: barrysloateTo answer John's question, and after giving this matter some thought, all sales are final on graded cards unless the grading company made an error of such magnitude that it was impossible for me to deny it. If a card is graded PSA 5 and the buyer complains the corner looks flattened, we are done. That's my policy, and I stand behind it (or even in front of it).

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09-22-2007, 12:02 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you Wonka--you made my point--now keep your sarcasm to yourself.

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09-22-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: John Really Jim I did, you actually had a point and I made it. Well I guess there is a first time for everything? As for your order to keep to myself well, to quote a phrase that's all the rage...no thanks Jim I wont be "strong armed by anyone" don’t like my views oh well get over it.

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09-22-2007, 12:37 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous." Great, then I won't post about how to identify altered cards any longer. Saves me time, engery and a lot of headaches. I've never said my opinion carries more weight than anyone or any company...or ever claimed to be an expert. _______________________ "What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders?" Nothing. The only excpetion is those guys steal from you and I try to show you how they do it. ________________________ John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here. I'm going back to my basement.

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09-22-2007, 12:47 PM

Posted By: peter chaoDon't do that. I've always valued your opinion. However, I'm not overly concerned about altered cards. If I get mad enough, I'm just going to file a lawsuit and sue everybody. Except for you guys of course, I have too much fun on this board to do that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: WesleyKevin, Please don't take the comments personally. I think your paper experiments are very interesting. It was Jim who asked that sales and returns be contingient on your opinion. This might be reasonable, but some may wonder why your opinion trumps those of an auction house or those of third party graders.

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09-22-2007, 01:23 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI've never seen Kevin be anything but pleasant and helpful on this board. Very clearly in this thread, and in others he has participated in, he hasn't been afforded the same courtesy. I've never read him post that his opinion should be taken up by all, or trumps others, he's simply offered it. And for that, he's been undercut and disparaged. If Jim wants to trumptet Kevin's skills as more than that, I don't see that as any reason to feel the need to 'cut him down to size'. And that's the way some posts read in this thread. Piss poor IMO. Daniel

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09-22-2007, 01:28 PM

Posted By: E, DanielYou remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings. Daniel

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09-22-2007, 01:29 PM

Posted By: John“John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here.” Kevin, Come on your more intelligent than that… I’m the prime example of why so many great people don’t post here. Here is the hearsay yet to be proven IMO, You can get most anything past graders and are some sort of super hero. Tons of super collectors are scared off by me and others on this board. Hmmmm the other board is according to you and others some sort of wonderland utopia. I post there too good board (Hi Jay, Scott) yet I don’t see Don L, Marshall F or any other super collectors posting over there. What gives? In fact for the most part I see the same names different GUI, perhaps these so called closet collectors just don’t post, because they don’t care too? Here are the facts, Lots of folk’s post here including myself. I actually post far less than many others. I only really post to either share images, or voice opinions on subjects I feel strongly about. Sometimes that means I disagree with you or someone else, that can mean we don’t see eye to eye oh well. I will call it as I see it which seems to be more than some folks can handle. I can’t help that, perhaps these folks should stay away from boards where differences of opinions can be had. You have shown a handful of images of so called doctored cards, you openly brag about doctored cards and how talented you are at getting them by graders. You really show very little proof of this, short of generic images, with mild story lines below them. You alluded to a book that you would be selling, and then changed your tune with a series of charitable posts which was appreciated and very nice for the record. You are however very vague in your discussions around your doctoring hobby and what your overall goal is, sorry if I’m not ready to blindly believe you and take your posts as some sort of gold. The one thing you have shown with out a doubt is that fraud in this hobby can be done via doctoring; but most folks know this is nothing new you’ve stumbled upon here. Here is where I’m torn, (nothing personal) If the above images are correct, what makes me think they never get sold as is? And why should I think you are some sort of Card Doctor Robin Hood vs. any other guy who doctors cards for ill gotten gains. What separates you from the others, and how are we who are not a part of this inner circle to assume or trust 100% in your opinion? I don’t think that it is unfair at all, but if you fell it is that’s your opinion I respect that.

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09-22-2007, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman12?

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09-22-2007, 01:49 PM

Posted By: peter chaoWonka, I'm like you, I've always been leery about Net54ers discussing altered cards. Nothing says that criminals can't be members of Net54. If I wanted to be an ace counterfeiter, I'd lurk on this board and check out Kevin's "experiments." It would make me better at my craft. Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 01:54 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI think I can see something rising....... Daniel

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09-22-2007, 01:55 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI don't know that anyone participating in this thread is out to cut anyone down to size. The thread began as a statement on high-grade Goudeys and the direction shifted when Kevin and Jim stated that they would not buy from an auction house due to altered cards in holders being sold there. Jim made a statement that he would not buy cards from anyone who would not let Kevin give his seal of approval, and that began a very enlightening thread where, inbetween unnecessary (IMO) jabs at Jim and his unwillingness to resubmit his cards, we discussed the relative merits of regrading graded cards. It was - and is - my opinion that there are lots of knowledgeable people out there when it comes to the topic of alterations. However, in my opinion the grading companies already serve as the independent evaluator of whether a card is good or not. Each of us can make our own decisions as to which of those companies we trust and which we don't. However, the point that I and (I think) others were trying to make had nothing whatsoever to do with the degree to which Kevin actually possesses the competency to do what Jim is suggesting. The point was that the grading companies have established their credibility and their brands over the course of a decade of providing this service, evaluating cards, lending their expertise in many different situations, and holdering literally millions of cards of all shapes and sizes, years and varieties. The question, at least in my mind, was whether it is a realistic expectation that one person - regardless of who it is - should have an opinion that trumps that of those companies who have (mostly) built their credibility over such a long period of time. In Kevin's defense, he never claimed in this thread that he should - that claim was Jim's, and I don't think he intended to throw Kevin to the wolves with his statements. At the same time, however, Kevin has mentioned on this board as well as the other board that he IS planning to create a business where he actually DOES apply his seal of approval to already-graded cards. Given that, I do think it's entirely acceptable for people to question his credentials - just like he and others question the credentials of the graders. But I do feel that the questions are legitimate, particularly when there are multiple statements being made and examples being shown that call into question the credentials and competence of others. Edited to remove a statement that could be viewed as insulting, because that's not my intent. -Al

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09-22-2007, 02:05 PM

Posted By: PASNothing personal, as I like Kevin and wish him success, but I continue to question the utility of such a service given the limited ability to opine on a card without being able to examine the edges.

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09-22-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI agree that there already exists arbiters of condition in the market, that they have the confidence (relatively <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) of most hobbyists and are arguably at least as experienced and able as any other group could offer. On the whole I think the pounding/griping/groaning that fixates many on this board regarding the number on the flips they recieve is stupendously boring. I don't need Kevin's seal on anything just as I don't need any other grading company's where I feel my own eyes and knowledge are sufficient, and will happily take their help where I believe it assists me. It's unlikely I would feel the need to extend that request to Kevin, but where I felt his opinion valuable (and have once already - about 2 months ago) why not? I also don't believe the sky is falling regarding altered cards in the hobby, though it must be said that statements from SGC and Auction Houses have quite strongly suggested that the numbers are higher than 'occasional'. My only comment was to the language used to describe Kevin's abilities or lack thereof, his intentions, etc. If you re-read the above thread you might agree that others have been less than generous, or might not. I am as yet to see anything he has said or done to warrant the snide tone in those posts. Daniel

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09-22-2007, 02:45 PM

Posted By: John While we are all making the world a better place and group hugging each other by holding back what you may feel are snide comments, which I and dare I say others feel are pretty reasonable questions and or concerns. Perhaps you can take your own advice the last few comments to Peter were pretty snide don’t you think. Talk about playing both sides of the fence…LOL Not defending Peter per say, but seems very hypocritical of you there E. Daniel. “Keep massaging Peter C, I think I can see something rising….” “You remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings. “

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09-22-2007, 02:50 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJohn, Thanks for defending me, but it's not necessary. I doubt if the popular kids are spending their time posting on Net54. I still enjoy it, I'm having fun, that's why I do it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

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09-22-2007, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliDaniel: I understand. People get riled up. I'm not immune to that, either, particularly on this topic. I try not to, but it doesn't always work. -Al

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09-22-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: JohnOh I’m not defending you I don’t even like you! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> Seriously I just thought that was pretty hypocritical of ED… As for Lichtman picking on you I cant help you there he’s on retainer and gets free cards each time I speak out of turn…and he likes the same restaurants I do to boot. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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09-22-2007, 03:35 PM

Posted By: cmokingKevin has spent a few hours with me explaining certain issues about card alterations that has been highly educational and eye opening to me. More importantly he was able to show me certain things that I would have never ever seen otherwise. For those of you that really want to get a better understanding of what the bad guys are doing in our hobby (so you can avoid it as much as you can), I think you'd be interested in spending some time with Kevin. I don't mean to spend Kevin's time for him, but I've found him to be very generous with his time and energy. Just send him an email, I'm sure he's willing to talk. FWIW, Jim, what the heck are you doing? With all your talk, why don't you spend an afternoon when you're out in southern California and go meet and talk to Kevin. Bring a handful of PSA 8 cards in your briefcase and see what he can show you. Don't be scared. The truth will set you free.

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09-22-2007, 03:39 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSpeaking of, John, that was a nice T205 you posted on the other thread. It didn't escape my attention. Please box it up and send it my way. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-22-2007, 03:57 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing, We are different in that regard--but I am having dinner with Kevin in a couple of weeks. Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.

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09-22-2007, 04:04 PM

Posted By: cmokingexcellent. have a good time guys.

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09-22-2007, 04:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl, I don't disagree with what you say but.... 1)We both agree that more altered cards are getting into holders 2)It is extremely difficult to look at a picture on a screen and know whether the card has been altered 3)If these statements are true why take the risk nof buying an altered card at auction. Charlie says what is the difference if the card looks good but it makes a difference to, sounds as it makes a difference to King and I bet it makes a difference to others. 4)Why not get another expert to look at the card and give his opinion on whether it is legit or not. Whether its Reza or Mike or Dave Forman or Kevin is not the issue here. 5)If the person has doubts the card can be returned--at bleast with the dealers I buy from. 6)Auctioneers would have difficulty following this business model as they get a lot of their cards on consignment. 7)Because of this and because of the shady business practices of certain auctioneers I think we will move back toward the Steve Novella/Peter Lalos/Kris Keppler business model of doing business. 8)Whether we do or don't, I will be very reluctant to but a card at auction if I have any doubts about authenticity. Thats all I am saying. In response some people attack Kevin(bizarre)and some tell me to get my cards refraded(which is not going to happen). All seems pretty straightforward to me. Cheers, Jim

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09-22-2007, 05:02 PM

Posted By: John<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/Iper20wantper20you.jpg"> “Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.” Actually I read all the time. Something you should start doing more often yourself for the record. ****But since you seem to have the pulse of this board enough to speak for them, let’s see who the people here would rather see more posts from me or you?**** In fact I wasn’t aware I made this place so awful so lets find if I do, and if the answer is yes Wonka ruins the board for everyone then I’ll leave you guys too it. Leon you have my word on this…no more Wonka. One small catch if you accept my challenge, if you come up short on this little witch hunt how about you take a break and box up your keyboard and or sit on your hands for awhile? You game Crandall, here’s your chance put up or shut up? I’ve had just about enough of your wining and crying, I ask pointed legitimate questions, I’m so sorry you cant deal with it, and constantly misconstrue everything I write as some all hell breaking loose personal attack. Heck you even respond to posts that aren't even directed to you! Short of the few card you’ve began to post you have been nothing but an antagonist on this board, even when I’m not posting your finding someone else to blame for all the worlds problems. Face it Jim I don’t pick on your family, spread rumors about you etc. I just disagree with 99% of your posts, deal with it already and stop hiding behind a wall of “victim” bricks.

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09-22-2007, 05:10 PM

Posted By: leonI don't want this kind of "poll" on the board to see who is more popular or unpopular. You and Jim C are both valuable board members and I hope it stays that way.....Both of you are intelligent and provocative....and die hard collectors....lets just try to get along and collect cards together.......best regards

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09-22-2007, 05:18 PM

Posted By: JohnLeon, thought you would feel that way. But for someone who cry’s about personal attacks etc. I think Jim takes way too many liberties with this “the board’ crap. He is not the majority voice or acting royalty on here, perhaps he should stop making comments like the above, especially if he wants everyone to get along etc. In the past few months, just having fun on here and asking questions and or voicing opinions on active topics, which last I checked was the purpose of this place last I checked. I’ve been threatened to be sued LOL, and continue to have this clown address posts that aren’t even directed at him. Sorry but it just gets plain old after awhile. John

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09-22-2007, 05:20 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJim: I need to be clear about something: I DO NOT agree that more altered cards are getting into holders. That has not been my experience. I believe that more altered cards are getting into SOME holders. And mitigating the risk comes down to the level of trust you have in your grader of choice. Everything else you said makes sense to me. However, if I were to purchase a card at auction, and discover it to be altered, I would take it back to SGC and they will review the card and give me an opinion. If they agree that the card is altered, they'll buy back the card. I'm sure PSA's customers are just as confident in PSA's willingness to stand behind their product. But I need to be clear about something else: I do not feel that removing a pencil mark from a card and getting it into a holder, taking glue off the back of a T206, or removing dirt or a wax stain from a card constitutes an "alteration." When I see someone removing glue from a card and then criticizing the grading company for giving the card a 2, I think they're missing part of the point. I also think there's a key difference between an auction house selling a card and a dealer doing the same. A dealer owns inventory and represents it a certain way in order to obtain the maximum dollars that they can put in their pocket. An auction house takes a commission for facilitating a transaction between a buyer and a seller. The auction house (at least in theory) does not actually own the merchandise. To ask the house to assume the financial risk associated with the grading company not doing its job, in my opinion, is unreasonable, since the auction house is responsible for paying the seller immediately after the close of the auction. It's the grading company's problem, IMO. Edited for clarity, because my fingers move faster than my dim-witted brain. Edited once again, because I'm no less dim-witted now than I was the first time I edited. -Al