Re: Mastro Shilling?

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Steve Hart is a very good businessman and seems to be very honest, so I would definitely consider any notions of his.

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Posted By: <b>Carl Lamendola</b><p>I can vouch for sandyandy, its Dan Knoll. He is a good friend of Mastro, but is straight as an arrow and has a good reputation in the hobby. He runs his own business. I would be shocked if anything out of the ordinary was going on.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"My main concern is &gt;&gt;&gt; thecelebrant &lt;&lt;&lt; and the relationship to Bill Mastro (and Mastro Auctions) or ANY affiliate(s). sandandy feedback represents over 10% of celebrant. This is high by any measure. Having Steve Hart a trusted dealer create the statement makes me VERY curious about this situation. I just looked in my new / old Mastro auction catalogs as well as online and could not find any policy stating employees or affiliates are not permitted to make bids (shill or otherwise). <br /><br />In anyone aware of the policy and is it in writing? I guess it is a good time to find out!"<br /><br />I believe thecelebrant is Doug Allen, which is the President of Mastro Actions. Bill Mastro via Doug's biding on the 1964 Topps Standup box on eBay, contacted Steve Hart to check out the box and see if it was legitimate. Steve flew to Connecticut and confirmed the box to be legitimate for Mastro. This let Mastro (Doug and Bill) bid on the box with confidence e.g. $25K on eBay. Doug and Bill will now have PSA (Steve Hart) grade the packs and you will see this for sale in an upcoming Mastro Auction. I have zero issue with auction houses owning lots, but my preference is that this information is disclosed. <br /><br />The thecelbrant purchase on eBay and hiring Steve as a consultant is normal and proper due dilligence. In this case, Mastro will make out handsomely as the box yielded a complete set in unopened back form + extra HOF'ers. <br /><br /> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Hey Guys,<br /><br />Let me clarify.<br /><br />Sandandy ebay seller aka Best of Yesterday is Dan Knoll who used to work for our Company. Recently (I think two weeks or so) we asked him to take our name off his listing since there is not formal affiliation. He is a totally honest guy who I personally trust entirely.<br /><br />The celebrant is not Doug Allen or Bill Mastro. Some of you may know him but it is not my business to disclose who he is. I do know personally he buys a lot of auto cards, non sports items and Topps Vault stuff. He has what I would call unusual collecting tastes.<br /><br />It is true that the celebrant purchased this on behalf of our Company as our Company does not currently use its own account to bid or sell on eBay. After purchasing it we did ask our friend and business associate Steve Hart to check it out. We do have a financial interest in the box and it currently being graded and you will see the packs/box in upcoming Mastro Auctions.<br /><br />Any questions?<br /><br />Doug

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Sure. 1) How about ARod's hot start? 2) What do you think of the PSA/Memory Lane situation? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I've bought a fair number of times from Dan Knoll on eBay, and always ranked as one of the best eBay sellers I've dealt with.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Great questions Jeff.<br /><br />I am amazed....12 home runs with 8 games to go in April. The major league record is 14. I think he is an amazing athlete but NYY fans only care if he can perform in October.<br /><br />JP...are you kidding? I was traveling all week got back to check in and saw a post regarding his auction with 400+ posts. I honestly didn't take the time reading it. I have enough to take care of with Jay thinking I am trying to amass a fortune by misrepresenting Jim Thorpe cards.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>I would be happy to answer your question. As stated in our conditions of sale #6 " all qualified bidders in good standing are eligible to bid on any lot in the auction, including employees and executives of Mastro Auctions"<br /><br />A number of our employees including myself are collectors, always have been and always will be. We bid using our own account in the auction. It is very important to note that other than our IT guy I am the only employee that has access to bidding records during the auction. I require these for adminstrative purposes to review bids when customers inadvertantly place straight bids instead of ceiling bids.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I just hope the seller of the cards takes his $25k profit and invests in some spelling and grammar lessons. Wow, atrocious spelling and grammar, even for ebay.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Firstly, superb to have concerns actually responded to. As with REA, you display the lack of arrogance towards collectors that I think nearly all truly appreciate......doesn't mean I agree with preparing cards for grading, but when you clearly state your stance and beliefs a hobbyist can respect the position and move on and buy elsewhere if so inclined. Similarly with any other Auction House practices.<br /><br />Secondly, could I ask your personal knowledge of the likelihood and or practice of asking PSA or any other grading company to change out flips and assign new cert #'s?<br />Do you agree wiping out a card's history creates unease over that cards' travels through auctions and ownership, or do you feel the action completely harmless?<br /><br />Thanks in advance for your thoughts.<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>That is a tough one. <br /><br />Ultimately it is the job of the auctioneer to use accurate and ethical practices to maximize the return for their consignor all the while making sure they are able to deliver a quality, properly described card to the buyer.<br /><br />Now lets analyze the situation. You have a card that is not paid for in the auction. The consignor really gets the raw end of the deal as many times they are selling it because they need the money and it has to be immediately relisted in order to turn it into money.<br /><br />Looking at my job description above that action follows all the guidelines of that description unless you consider this practice deceiving and therefore unethical. I know we don't do this but at this time I am not going to pass judgment as it is a tough situation for a consignor in this incident and I don't believe Memory Lane changed the desciption to make the cards sound better.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Perhaps its already been beat to death but i dont have time to read a 400+ post thread... Couldn't ML have gone about relisting the cards in a manner that works out for the consigner and eases buyers minds without attempting to "wipe out" a cards history? I think most collectors like the idea of being able to track a cards history, also, we have come to expect transparency in major auctions listings. That's why some of us prefer auction houses to the "wild west" dealings of ebay.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I think the essential problem with ML is that they intentionally deceived bidders in an attempt to raise the auction prices. Whether covertly switching numbers is high crimes or merely bad etiquette I offer no insight, but realization of the deception will make bidders unpleased.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Wasn't changing the flip completely inclusive of the cert# - changing the description of the card to make the card sound better....ie not the card that was previously auctioned and for 'some reason' both sold and not sold?<br /><br />I think that for various reasons ML decided that was exactly what was needed to maximize the auction result, that is to improve a description that if in complete honesty would have had to make mention that it was being re-listed, and the reasons for its re-appearance.....<br /><br />Would it have affected the price achieved to give an honest appraisal of its history in those few months...? I'm not convinced it would have, and in fact I think the knowledge that it was the same card at that grade would have confirmed to buyers of that tier that it was not as common....whereas if TWO turn up at that grade in a couple of months, my experience is that the second usually sells at a discount as buyers start believing there may be even more available, and the cachet of the low pop. is eroded.....<br /><br />And just lastly, while your company may not do so, are you aware historically of this being a common Auction House/Dealer practice, and do you believe it is available to any collector who submits cards?<br /> <br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Doug- Always good to hear from you guys.<br />Question- When are you going to start having a separate auction for those of us who can't keep up with the rich & famous bidding on your items!

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p> Doug, Your honesty is refreshing, but I'm concerned with the Mastro bidding policy. Malicious or not... Certainly, I'm not the only one bugged by the possibility of a conflict of interest here. <br /><br /> Disclaimer, This isn't an accusation nor a personal attack on you/Mastro. But, in the wrong hands, this practice could draw higher bids as a few will stop at nothing to win a rare item.<br /><br /> Overhead question; Is this the norm within all Houses?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>For the record, I worked for the better part of a year at Sotheby's cataloguing the Halper collection, and during the auction I was permitted to bid. Sotheby's has special employee bid sheets that I filled out, and I left my bids. They didn't want me raising my paddle in the room, but had no problem with me bidding.<br /><br />I didn't think it was a big deal, nor did they.

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p> It wouldn't be a problem in most instances, but the door is open for clandestine bids should a House employ an unscrupulous individual. Perhaps I'm just an untrusting/annoying old coot. Thanks for clarifying.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is a big difference between doing something in good faith and doing something to deceive. And your conscience has to be your guide.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"Another question for Doug. Does Mastro Auctions OR employees consign items to sandandy? You mentioned no formal affiliation. How about an informal affiliation? It has been posted on the PSA Message Boards thecelebrant is none other then a Mastro Auctions employee and another PSA board member emailed me the name."<br /><br />Basoline may have sent you the name Dan Knoll. He is a consultant to Mastro just like Steve Hart, Steve Grad, James Spence and others. <br /><br /><br />Dan Knoll<br />Uniform Authenticator, Photography Expert<br />One of the leading generalists in the hobby. Dan has been in the business since 1982. He is the foremost authority in sports uniform authentication. Most high-end buyers will not pay top dollar for a uniform without Dan's blessing. He has successfully maintained a retail operation since 1986. He is a well-known dealer in vintage material and has great success in locating merchandise.<br /><br />He has run successful auctions as Best of Yesterday and operates with Dave Bushing as Vintage Sports Equipment. Dan was one of the primary consultants to Sotheby's for the recent Halper sale that realized over $25,000,000, and also served as a consultant to Sotheby's in 1993 and 1994 with Bill Mastro. He is also an expert on equipment.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>People are allowed to consign to and bid in the same auction. I'm sure many people on this board do it. Meaning, if you consign one lot to a Mastro auction doesn't mean you're ethically forbidden from bidding on any of the other 1,999 lots ... Also, Knoll is not listed as employee of Mastro under the list of positioned employees (see print catalog). That Knoll is listed as an expert doesn't prove much, especially as he's not listed as an employee. He may merely be an advisor, meaning he gets a phone call once a month from Doug asking when the Phillies wore pinstripes.<br /><br />A number of years ago I interviewed Doug for my website (he was kind enough to answer the questions). I asked him how much of the stuff in an auction was consigned and how much was owned by Mastro. He gave me some figure, with the Mastro owned lots being a small fraction. I asked the question merely out of interest and he answered honestly, and I'm sure neither of us thought it was a big deal. My point being that Doug has been open and honest about that issue literally for years, and, barring overwhelming evidence, he can be considered a candid. One can rightly complain that PSA avoids hard questions, but the same can't be said for Doug.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"thecelebrant was also an employee of Dan Knoll and is now a current Mastro Auctions employee."<br /><br />Who is thecelebrant? <br /><br />I think the only official Mastro employees are:<br /><br />Bill Mastro<br />Doug Allen<br />Ron Oser<br />Kevin Struss<br />Brian Marren<br />Mark Theotikis<br />Derek Grady<br />Chris Porter<br />Brian Bigelow<br />Jeff Marren<br />Edward Jost Petrie<br />Khyber Oser<br /><br />Which one is it? If it is not someone from the list, are they really a consultant or is the list wrong? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Somehow I think you are missing some employees....I think Pete Calderon still works there..Also, it's my understanding there are around 30-35 employees in total. Maybe you are only counting the ones on the website and in the public eye? I think there are more otherwise....take care

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Hey Guys,<br /><br />Sorry for delayed response....church this a.m. and my 14 years old son is on a tournament team and the season has begun!!!<br /><br />Let me try to answer a bunch of questions all at once...<br /><br />We do use eBay resellers for some material but do not use Sandandy. <br /><br />We do allow employees to both buy and sell in the auction. <br /><br />I obviously don't have a problem with employees bidding in the auction as long as they do it in an honest manner. Funny thing is we have an "honest bid" system as my employees can't see who they are bidding against. I personally believe honesty is something you earn not something you build a marketing plan around! Every time someone makes an allegation about shilling a dozen people chime in that they have won things for much less than they are willing to pay. That is how you earn a reputation of honesty.<br /><br />The amount of material consigned by Mastro and Mastro employees is pretty insignificant. I would say it amounts to about $200k of what looks like will be north of $10 million in material (2%). I am sure it never exceeds 5%.<br /><br />Let me know if I missed anything.<br /><br />Doug

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>If you could have a whack at my post regarding certs etc.. above?<br /><br /><br />Thanks<br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Church before Net54? Obviously, someone has his priorities backward. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Sure I will....<br /><br />"Wasn't changing the flip completely inclusive of the cert# - changing the description of the card to make the card sound better"<br /><br />My sense is the intent was not to "change" the description. It was to get bidders to focus on the card itself and not the circumstances behind the card reappearing.<br /><br />I agree with Barry Sloate it all goes to whether or not there is an intent to deceive. Only JP can answer that.<br /><br />For me ultimately the question is was the card properly described.<br /><br />Doug<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with Doug here. I'm sure many of the Mastro employees are active collectors, and if they see something in their auction that they would like to have, who loses by it? Jeez, they probably work day and night to get the catalog and sale together, why can't they at least treat themselves to something to reward all that hard work? I worked a thousand hours on the Halper sale, and I made sure I didn't go home empty handed.<br /><br />As long as there is a system in place that assures it's done fairly, I think nearly all auctions houses will permit it. And it's just as silly to ban it, because any employee can just ask a friend to bid for him. And the end result is the same.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"it all goes to whether or not there is an intent to deceive. Only JP can answer that."<br /><br />At arraignment: no intent<br />At guilty plea: intent

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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>Noticed that Dan Knoll was listed earlier in the post. Not positive, but is he a sports memorabilia authenticator and did he go to Cubs Fantasy camp this year. If so, he appears to be a strait shooter and one hell of a nice guy. His ball playing skills however are average <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just curious.<br /><br />Ken

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I've met Dan Knoll and he is a real nice guy....HUGE Cubs fan so I wouldn't be surprised if he went to Cubs camp.<br /><br />At the time I met him he was with SCDA and was leaving the business to spend more time with family.

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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>gotta be the same guy. Thin about 5'10" sandy Brownish hair, and really a nice guy.

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>This might not be a smart or relevant question but since Mastro employees can bid in the auctions, if they win, do they have to pay FULL Buyer's Commissions or do they get a break?? This matters because if they don't pay full commissions, then they can place a higher bid but still pay the same amount as someone who doesn't work for Mastro.<br /><br />An example.<br /><br />Since I don't work for Mastro, if I won a $2,000 dollar card or item in the auction, I would have to pay 20% commission, or an extra $400 dollars. My total with commish would be $2,400 dollars. Now if a Mastro employee can bid on and win the same item but only pay a 10% commish then they can bid <br />a little over $2,180 and still owe only the $2,400 total.<br /><br />Just a question and no big deal to me (at least right now) because I don't have the money to bid in Mastro Auctions. But to others who DO have the money this might make a difference. <br /><br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If employees didn't have to pay a buyer's fee, Mastro, the company, presumably wouldn't want them bidding. They'd prefer non-employees who will owe the fees to win the lots. It's hard for an auction house to make money on consignments if no one is paying them for the service.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I would assume they pay the BP. That's money the company has earned. That seems like too much of a perk.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>1) Dan Knoll is not only completely honest he is also charitable. Any of you ever have a guy give you an $800 Tango brand Egg card for free! I have and it was Dan who gave it to me.I should post the letter he sent me in 1993 with the card! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />2) Doug,Spencer is 14? Wow! time flies!<br /><br /><br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I am 5'10" tall and if I remember correctly he was considerably taller than me so the guy you met at Cubs camp may not be the same guy.

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>My employees including myself by the buyers premium.<br /><br />To Brian...yes Spencer is 14, and is 5'10"...will pass me up in the next year. He is also a great catcher. His travel team started this week and will play 45 games before Fathers day....amazing.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>if this was the guy who gave you cards and money that you told your daughter was dying (but, you stated this was in 1993, so I doubt it is). <br /><br />Anyway, an $800 card from this guy, cards and cash from someone you stooped low enough to say your daughter was dying and the $900 card you stole from me - you must not have much invested in your collection!?!?

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>that is a lot of ball games for a two month window!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Thank you Mr. Allen for answering that question. At least I know it is a fair playing ground as far as employees goes. There are some local auctions in my area where the employees don't have to pay the bidder's premium. Yes, that is a perk for them and no, I don't think it is fair.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I can't believe GAI actually slabs the empty box. Could someone please tell me why?

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>Wouldn't that box be $36K to Mastro after the BP?<br /><br />I'm guessing the previous price became too public and Mastro couldn't get two new people to go all in.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't think it is appropriate for an auction house to not disclose the inherent conflict of interest of its ownership of an item in its auction -- especially when the auctioneer's employees are permitted to bid on said items. Again, an unregulated industry allows for this sort of behavior. <br /><br />I'd love to see how well Mastro-owned (or employee owned) items did in the auction compared to, say, the Cracker Jack set.

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Posted By: <b>DR</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>please repost with your full name....thanks (leon)

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>As someone who has won a few items from Mastro over the years. This does not look good to me.<br /><br />In fact as these things become public the banner ad just serves as a reminder why REA looks better and better.<br /><br />As someone who really had no feelings either way regarding said ad's. I must admit that now i feel differently about it. I DO feel that there has been a shift here regarding how Mastro is defended by some. It seems no matter what is brought to light it is okay and can be explained away.<br /><br />This goes beyond things easily explained. Have not other's been banned from running ad's ?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>To answer your question the answer is "no". No other advertisers have been banned for anything that wasn't proven. Mastro is in the same boat. Each case is different though and I will look at each one on it's own merit. best regards

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hi Rand,<br />I need you to put your full name by your post and email address....it's the same for everyone....thanks

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>Sandyandy is still mentioning Mastro in their auction descriptions. Guess someone didn't get the memo...

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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>I am sure all the Mastro bashers will be dissapointed but.... I was the winner of the 64 Stand Ups box. I am a private collector and am not associated with the company or owners. I was fully aware of their ownership and it made me no difference in bidding. What does it matter? I am extremely pleased with my final bid price and was prepared to go much higher. I wish I had seen it on ebay!

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Posted By: <b>JT Burtchaell</b><p>John,<br />Did it bother you that Steve Hart (who grades packs for PSA) physically inspected the box for Mastro, but then the packs were slabbed by GAI?<br /><br />JT

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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>JT-that didn't bother me at all. I personally think pack grading is rather absurd. I am only concerned that they are in good shape and not opened. Whether a pack is a 7,8,9, or 10 doesnt really do much for me. I have quite a few 1950's packs by both Global and PSA and you can't see any difference in a 7 or 9, in my opinion. The fact that the packs are in very nice shape and unopened is what did it for me.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I had a max bid three bid increments higher in on a set of caramel cards in the recent auction and the high bid never moved the last 4-5 days so I didn't detect any shilling going on. I did, however, think that a shipping and handling charge of $77.00 for a set of 30 cards was ridiculous though. The cards could have come by registered mail for about $17.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Yeah, but then you might never have gotten all that fancy "Mastro" tape!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bob--how about $74 for the shipment of two slabbed cards?<br /><br />As noted above, I don't care what the shipping cost is as long as that damn box is slathered in that fancy Mastro packing tape. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JT Burtchaell</b><p>John,<br />Thanks for answering. What I'm getting at is this question: If Steve Hart was the go-between, why weren't the packs slabbed by PSA?<br /><br />JT

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Posted By: <b>Anthony</b><p>I don't know if it's still in effect, but either Mike or Steve at Global told me they had an exclusive agreement with Mastro to slab their packs. That would explain why they were not graded by PSA. However, as Steve Hart was the buying agent and he's the authenticator for PSA (and the best in the hobby at unopened material, IMO) I have no doubts they would've passed either company's standards.<br /><br /><br />edited to avoid the wrath of Sloate on a grammatical error!