Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>The HOF had their first group of inductees in 1936 and of course Ty Cobb was in the first group of super-stars that got in. Cobb was vilified in his time and was hated by even his teammates. If the Hall didn't have a waiting period and the Hall opened in 1929 would Ty Cobb have gotten in immediately?<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>probably.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Of course. Without a doubt. Despite the rumors about gambling. Now why is this a question?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Cobb finished his career with the Athletics and he was hated by teammates and had a love hate relationship with the fans. It's true that the sportswriters liked him because he gave them plenty to write about, but most of it was pretty negative stuff. I would say that it would be unlikely that he would go in with the first group but probably would have gotten in at later date.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Revisionist speculation. Who cares?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Also at the time, the stats weren't all important like they are now. Cy Young with 511 wins didn't get in with the first group.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>That question is absurd. Of course Cobb would have made it first ballot. Be it 1929 or 1936, Cobb would have received more votes than anyone. The 1936 vote was as follows:<br /><br />226 ballots cast, 170 required to be elected (75%)<br /><br />- 221 Ty Cobb (97.8%)<br />- 215 Babe Ruth (95.1%)<br />- 215 Honus Wagner (95.1%)<br />- 205 Christy Mathewson (91.1%)<br />- 189 Walter Johnson (83.6%)<br /><br />missing 1st ballot<br /><br />- 146 Nap Lajoie (64.6%)<br />- 133 Tris Speaker (58.8%)<br />- 111 Cy Young (49.1%)<br /><br />And so on . . .<br /><br />Ty Cobb would have made it first ballot regardless of the year.<br /><br />That's my opinion, and I don't even collect Cobb, that stuff is too new.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski<br />

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Babe Ruth retired in 1935 and the first players to be inducted into the HOF was in 1936 and Ty Cobb still had more votes right after Ruth retired. I think its clear that Cobb would still have more votes regardless of the year.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I basically go with Bill James theory on Hall of Famers, after a period of time people forget what an ornery SOB Cobb was and go with the numbers. So in 1929 he wouldn't have been in the first group, but in 1936 he would be.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>"So in 1929 he wouldn't have been in the first group, but in 1936 he would be."<br /><br />Peter where do you come up w/ this crap?<br />Its about abilty and #'s not a popularity contest.<br />Cobb would be elected easily in any year he was on the ballot be in 1929 or 1999.<br /><br />Edited for typo<br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I think people can not like but respect a player. Every knows Cobb was not the most likable fellow, but everyone respected him as a ball player. Played hard, long and well. Many NFL linebackers are ornery, but most don't even consider that a detraction. ... I think personality defects are considered a problem when they effect play (Darryl Strawberry, Denny McLain). There was nothing wrong with Cobbs' play.<br /><br />In 1928, Cobb would have been ranked as the best or second best player ever, and would have been voted in right away.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Peter ... Where do you dig these up from? ......<br /><br />You can't possibly top this one.<br /><br />Allow me to give you the title of your book.<br /><br /> "Idle Thoughts by Peter C"

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />It would only contain a title page.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Knowing Peter's tastes, I assumed this was connected to Barry Bonds.<br /><br />I don't think Cobb was as mean and hated as people today make him out to be. Most people don't known he never beat cripples on Sundays.

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Just for the record, the voting was 1936 but they were not technically "inducted or enshrined" until 1939.<br /><br />What is more interesting is why these future HOFers only got 1 vote that first vote!<br /><br />Baker, Clarke, Crawford, Dean, Gehringer, Hartnett, Mack, Marquad, and Vance. <br /><br />I do understand some of these getting one vote but Mack, Gehringer, and Crawford?<br /><br />BTW, in 1936 Joe Jackson got 2 votes.<br /><br />The list of people who missed it the first time is impressive...<br />Alexander, Speaker, Young, Lajoie, Hornsby, Cochrane, Sisler, Collins, Gehrig, Foxx, Terry, Brown, Evers, Chance, McGraw, Schalk, Bresnahan, and Bender.<br /><br />I am not shocked Cobb got in...players hated him for his antics but they respected him more for his playing ability than anything else.<br /><br />Joshua

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>cobb ABSOLUTELY would have been elected in 1929. <br /><br />next topic please.

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Had Cobb been at the National this year, would he have waited to buy an autographed Barry Bonds Upper Deck card until Barry actually tied Aaron? And if Bud Selig had been commissioner in 1939, would he have attended the induction ceremonies? If Cobb were alive today, would he read <i>The Card</i>? If he were seen with a copy of <i>The Card,</i> would the value of his T206 cards be impacted? If Bobby Bonds had named his son Billy instead of Barry, would Aaron's record still be in jeopardy?<br /><br />There, I think I've covered everything for you, Peter.<br /><br />Next topic: If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Boy, Peter C, you're taking a beating for this one...<br />these can be fun topics...but I read the same thing as Dadvidcycleback did, which was more of a "Is Barry Bonds the modern-day Ty Cobb?"<br /><br />Not sure about the answer to that...I wonder if everyone hated Cobb so much, were they afraid to say so at the time? I cringe everytime I hear a player interviewed about Bonds and you just know they really aren't saying what's on their mind.<br /><br />Edited: Oh, sorry, Rob...not to ignore you. I would be a Walnut tree, because I would like to have large nuts and be prized for my wood.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>While I personally dont think there is much to discuss here (yes, cobb would be in, there shouldnt be any debate about that) and perhaps a smartass comment or two are appropriate, I think some of the more personal attacks toward Peter above are completely unwarranted.

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Posted By: <b>Neal Kane</b><p>enjoy frozen pizza if it was available back in the day? <br /><br />Chaoism is a fascinating philosophy.

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Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Peter C. -- you have hit an all time low with this one.<br /><br />Truly.<br /><br />For a presumably serious collector of vintage cards, this was just plain silly.

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Here is the back of a 1927 York Caramel card on Cobb.<br />It was clear to everyone how great a player he was when<br />he was playing. To think that in 2 years that his stats<br />would diminish to the fans & voters is insane.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/e210b.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>I like applesauce.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Onto more important topics---<br /><br />Jay- how was the Nat'l?<br /><br />i'm home sick today, let me know when i can call you to chat.<br /><br />MVS

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Mike - as everyone has stated the Nat'l was great.<br />Shoot me a call late afternoon and I'll fill ya in on the specifics.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>......<br />......<br />......<br /><br />There. Now I have added more to a rational discussion on vintage baseball than Peter has. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (Note smiley)

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Froto Lives.<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>You are perceptive, I was going to come around to Barry. Remember our discussion today when Barry's turn for the HOF comes around. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Look, we would have to know if the Hall election was pre or post Crash and what role, if any, Cobb played in it. Also, Cobb's chances would be influenced by the specific day the election were held. Astrologers and numerologists would have to be consulted.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"Imagine ... if Cobb used Steroids?" ............

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Cobb was known to bend the rules as far as he could. If the umpire wasn't watching he would sometimes bypass 3d base on his way to home plate, I've little doubt that he would have taken steroids if they were available.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>That was a favorite tactic of Mike King Kelly to skip third, but I have never heard this accusation against Cobb. Do you have a cite for that Peter?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I'll look it up and get back to you in a day or two.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>During the early days, many players would by pass bases.<br /><br />Why do you think that they added umpires to every base?<br /><br />Give us an indication that you've studied the history of the game, or change your source.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Peter doesn't have a site, he just says whatever comes to his head.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>&lt;&lt;I've little doubt that he would have taken steroids if they were available.<br /><br />Peter C.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Mike Schmidt (who is my favorite player of all-time) basically came out and said that if he had the opportunity to use steroids and knew MLB would not discipline him, maybe he would have taken him, too. Are we know turning into the thought police based upon a characterization of Cobb from 75 years ago?<br /><br />Cobb and Babe Ruth played together in charity golf tournaments. He was a successful investor in the stock markets. He also established an educational fund. Cobb was many things -- some not so great, some better than any others. Looking at him from one perspective is not going to persuade anyone.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>But you have to understand the Peter C mind. .........

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Is that a contradiction in terms? Edited to add <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>I've been told that there are certain people on this board that don't like smilies. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>&lt;&lt;But you have to understand the Peter C mind. .........&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />What an unreasonable statement. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to add a <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited to add a second <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited to add a third <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited to remove the third <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (it was played out)<br /><br />Edited to add the previously removed third <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (What the heck!)

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Posted By: <b>Bill K@sel</b><p>Either Peter has some serious hatred towards Cobb, or serious man-love for Barry. <br /><br />If only they had the Internets available to the voters in 1936 and previous years where youtube images and video of Cobb skipping third base, injecting HGH into his rear, and body slamming pit bulls who refused to fight him in a cage match the voters might have been swayed a bit. As it were all they had were smoke signals and pony express to get the news across the country....wait, maybe that was for Kelly....now I'm confused. :-|<br /><br />Had my parents not been Catholic my point would be moot and irrelevant.<br /><br />Will Barry get in the Hall? I really don't care. It won't change my opinion of him and it won't affect my love of the dead-ball era.<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>but I do know that Cobb would have had no trouble getting in last year, when only Mr. Sutter garnered enough votes. That is some serious lack of competition.<br /><br />Parenthetical silliness: (Of course, most don't know this, but Sutter had to get in, simply to validate Sandberg's entry, since most of his qualifications centered around his performance against Sutter in that single 1984 twilight game at Wrigley Field!)<br /><br />If Barry is elected into the HOF and no one is around to care about it, will he still be a HOFer?<br />Answer: Only if Mastro auctions off his travel kit<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>It could not have been Prof Peter C. ........<br />For you see ......<br />He is too busy trying to eliminate Cleveland from being one of the national's alternating cities.<br />He claims that Cleveland is a disaster, and doesn't desreve another shot.<br /><br />What puzzles me Dr Watson is: <br />That most people heard from, had a great time at the Cleveland show, and found cards that they never expected to see. ... but what do they know.<br /><br />Prof Peter C wasn't there, and that's what counts.<br /><br />Dr Watson ... did you just barf? ...............<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Anyone care to speculate the impact on current prices of vintage cards if we were to assume Cobb would have used steroids? And would that help sales of "The Card?"

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>But in your wildest imagination, can you imagine what his records, and numbers would have been? .......

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Posted By: <b>Ed Ivey</b><p>If Cobb had used steroids.....<br /><br /> .367*

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>I don't even want to THINK about Ty Cobb with "'roid rage".

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>He would have climbed a mountain to punch an echo. <br /><br />Always loved that description of him.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I wonder how much of Cobb's statistics are directly related to determination and not talent....How good would he have been if he hadn't been hazed as a rookie?

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>...plus his Mom blew his Dad away("Don't come home a failure.") and he was still pissed about the Civil War.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I know you guys believe in fairness (maybe I assume too much?), anyway, here's my argument, there will come a day when we consider both Cobb and Bonds to be on the same level of achievement. In other words they will be both considered first tier hall of famers.<br /><br />Put their careers in historical perspective, they both cheated during their careers, they were both vilified. Am I overstating Barry's case? I don't think so.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i'm sorry, maybe i missed something...how did cobb cheat?

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>In other words, both Cobb and Bonds are guilty, even though they haven't been proven guilty?<br /><br />You're an attorney???

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Are you saying they are both innocent? Okay, they are both innocent.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Mike<br /><br />Cobb was implicated along with Tris Speaker in a scandal in 1926 of fixing a game in 1919. Here's one article on it, from Timothy Gay, the author of the recent Tris Speaker biography <a href="http://tinyurl.com/y49kqc" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/y49kqc</a> <br /><br />Max<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Well Guys,<br /><br />According to a ESPN survey, Cobb was in the top 10 of all-time baseball cheaters. Barry wasn't even in the running.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>One version of the scandal is that Cobb bet on his own team. But what if he bet against his club or, as Joe Wood said Speaker did, threw some games? This would mean that he laid down and didn't add to his own great record. This can be distinguished from taking illicit drugs that enable certain modern players to gain an unnatural advantage.<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>According to Dusty Baker, if you are not cheating then you are not trying.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>If the press in 1929 was anything like it was today then Cobb and Speaker would have been given the bum's rush for the HOF due to the betting scandal. I have to read up on the scandal actually, it's beena while and my memory is hazy.<br /><br />Also, there was a great article in SCD a few years ago that debunked a lot of the anti-legend of Ty Cobb. There was some new research and the conclusion was that Cobb was a fiery competitor and could be a royal, cantankerous pain in the you know what but was actually a somewhat generous and charitable man off the field. He would be considered a grizzled old vet today, I think.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>He's also the guy that beat-up a one-armed fan during a game. <br /><br />The charitable side of Cobb came after his playing and managerial days were over. Barry has a charitable side also, we may see more of it after he retires.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Sean has more baseball insight than you do. ...........<br /><br />In less time on this planet.

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Peter, <br />I believe Cobb went into the stands and attacked a man in a wheelchair, if that's the event you are referring to.<br /><br />Also, for what it's worth, I watched a 9 minute clip on Cobb from Burns' Baseball. John Thorn, the historian/author said that while Cobb wasn't the most talented, he was the most determined. It just goes to show, what drive, determination, and perseverance can do.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>If we could all live to be 150 it would be interesting to see how players like Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and the rest of the contemporary "cheaters" are viewed by society and collectors. The collectors of today are paying huge premiums for cards of cheaters...and not just those associated with the Black Sox. Hal Chase may have been the king of baseball cheaters and his cards even carry a premium. Will Barry Bonds be romanticized the same way Joe Jackson has been? Only Sean may be around to know.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I just a read a piece on the SABR-l list pointing out that Olympic level athletes in track, swimming and other sports have been using steroids and other performance enhancers for over 30 years. These people don't have anywhere near the monetary resources that baseball players do, yet they manage to stay ahead of the drug testers.<br /><br />Do you really think that just because testing has been implemented that no one is cheating anymore. I guarantee you that players are still cheating and they are using the latest and greatest drugs that can't be detected by tests. A-Rod makes more money anyone in baseball. I'd more surprised that he isn't using something than if he is clean.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>The players are making millions for superstars like A-Rod and Barry we are talking 10s of millions. They have the resources to obtain the best steroids and designer drugs money can buy. They have the economic incentive to stay a couple of steps ahead of the testers.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"The Totally Negative Mind of Peter C" ...........

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>&lt;&lt;Well Guys,<br /><br />According to a ESPN survey, Cobb was in the top 10 of all-time baseball cheaters. Barry wasn't even in the running.<br /><br />Peter C.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Peter:<br /><br />I stand corrected. Now that I am able to know the combined opinions on this matters from a bunch of 20 and 30-year old men (not to mention a few thousand teenagers), the significant majority of whom know absolutely nothing about baseball 90 years ago. But I do humblly stand corrected.<br /><br />From a pure polling perspective, I actually think that Family Feud probably has it best. They ask 100 random people, you know. "Survey says..." Although it was a little more reliable when Richard Dawson was host, I think.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Charles Alexander in his biography about Ty Cobb discusses cheating by Ty Cobb. Also brought up was the time when he went into the stands and beat up a fan in a wheelchair, there was also discussion about his racism. There were also hints that he may have tried to throw a baseball game. Ty Cobb was no angel. If he's a first tier Hall of Famer then so is Barry.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, your use of logic is impeccable once again. Too bad Charles Alexander can't write a book about Bonds fast enough to support your "Charles Alexander" conclusion.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i have to admire how peter can resurrect an inane dead post,he started, seemingly just to expose himself to more jabs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I agree w/JK. I don't check this site very often but I'm always amazed by two things:<br /><br />1) the number of obnoxious remarks made toward peter C.<br /><br />2) that Peter C. manages to take the abuse hurled at him w/such good humor.<br /><br />Peter, you are a better man than I am.<br /><br />BTW...I don't think it was such an outlandish question but I do think Ty would have been elected in a 1929 vote.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>You know as well as I do that in order to continue practicing law you need to have a thick skin. You are going to quit practicing before me because my skin is thicker than yours. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I know you have doubts that the Georgia Peach is a first tier HOFamer. After all, he probably bypassed third base more than a few times on his way towards home plate.<br /><br />Well, with Barry there's absolutely no doubt that he's a first tier HOFamer. You could subtract 3 MVPs from his career for cheating and he would still have 4 which is more than any player ever.<br /><br />You could also subtract 300 HRs and 100 stolen bases from his career and he will still be the only player to ever hit over 400 HRs and steal over 400 bases.<br /><br />Sounds like a first tier HOFamer to me. Now if he was a racist he would be on the same tier as Cobb.<br /><br />Peter C.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>What humor?<br /><br />By now, you should know.<br /><br />He's a Masochist. ... he loves getting whipped.<br />He'll even pick out the right whip for you.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>"Now if he was a racist he would be on the same tier as Cobb."<br /><br />Not a racist? I dunno, Peter.......,<br /><br /><br /><br />In an excerpt from Ron Kittle's Tales from the White Sox Dugout, that appeared on May 31 in suburban Chicago’s Southtown News newspaper, former Chicago White Sox player Kittle quotes Bonds as saying, "I don't sign [autographs] for white people."<br /><br /><br /><br />The setting was the visitors’ clubhouse at the Chicago Cubs’ Wrigley Field home in 1993, when Bonds’ San Francisco Giants had come to town. Kittle, by then retired from the game, had asked Bonds to sign two jerseys Bonds had worn in games, so that Kittle could auction them for Indiana Sports Charities, his philanthropy helping kids with cancer.<br />I paid about $110 of my own money for them, so they could be auctioned off at the golf outing. I did that all the time for stars like Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Derek Jeter and Roger Clemens. When I tell them how their autographs help the cause, every player gladly signs -- with one exception.<br /><br /><br />I walked up to Bonds at his locker in the Wrigley Field visitors' clubhouse, introduced myself and said, ‘Barry, if you sign these, they'll bring in a lot of money for kids who need help.<br /><br /><br /><br />Bonds stood up, looked me in the eye and said, “I don't sign for white people.” If lightning hits me today, I will swear those were his exact words. Matt Williams and other Giants were in the room and they heard what Bonds said.<br /><br />I stood there for a minute, and the veins in my neck were popping. I've only been that mad a few times in my life. I was going to beat the (heck) out of him, really kick his (butt), but Williams saw what was happening, so he came over and got between us. Matt said, “Ron, that's just the way he is.”

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, you're right: I probably will cease practicing law before you but not for the reason you suggested. As for Cobb, I suppose I measure the value of a HOFer on how he compared to his contemporaries. Gaudy numbers from a different era are not necessarily helpful. But what do you think of a player like Cobb who routinely was in the top 3 in the following categories: batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, runs, hits, total bases, homeruns, RBI and stolen bases -- and in fact led the league in all of those categories in 1909? Barry ever do that?<br /><br />Nevertheless, there is no question that Bonds is an incredible player and his numbers and career merit first ballot selection. However, his blatant steroid using makes it difficult for me to consider him a first ballot guy. I suspect I'd still vote for his induction even if he was convicted of lying to the GJ about his steroid use; I think he's that great of a player even without the power. All anyone has to do is watch Bonds at the plate to recognize his greatness. I just think that the point has to be made, as it was made with McGwire, that a blatant cheater should not be just welcomed with open arms into the HOF.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />Ron Kittle had every right to pound Barry for that racist remark. Especially in that situation.<br /><br />Jeff,<br /><br />Barry's career isn't over yet and he says he wants 3,000 hits. Who knows? He may win Come Back Player of the Year in the NL.<br /><br /><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So since Bonds made that racist remark doesn't that make him a racist?

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Peter,<br />I wasn't asking for opinions on whether or not Kittle was justified in being pissed over Bonds' behavior. My, I would think obvious, point was to show, that, contrary to your belief that Bonds isn't a racist this incident evidences otherwise.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry's lived in both Menlo Park and presently lives in Beverly Hills in California. If he was a racist he wouldn't be living in virtually lily-white neighborhoods.<br /><br />He does have some racist tendencies...but it is more like he has a huge chip on his shoulder. He's a second generation star in the Bay Area, Bobby Bonds, his father was loved by many here. His godfather is Mays who lives in Atherton, another rich white neighborhood. Barry's been a celebrity his entire life...and has been treated as such.<br /><br />But still Barry is a proud black man...in his warped way, he probably thinks that by making racist comments he's getting back at some caucasians who don't treat blacks well. We need to tell Barry it doesn't work that way, and he is being just as racist as the people he's condemning.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter....um....I am actually speechless.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>I guess kids with cancer are among those "caucasians that don't treat blacks well".

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jeff, it's difficult of me to think of you as being "speechless." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I really don't know why Barry was such a jerk with Ron Kittle and those kids. But Barry's articulate and complicated, I don't think simple racism on his part explains it.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>There's a wax figure of Peter C, being created for the Wax Museum. ...............<br /><br />There's a little book in the figures hand.<br />The title:<br /><br />The Insightful Thoughts of Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Are you Barry Bond's P.R. guy? For every negative comment that someone makes about him you have an excuse... he should definately put you on his payroll.<br /><br />And for the record... *.<br /><br />Zach S.<br /><br />E.T.A. - maybe it was 'roid-rage racism?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />I know you will never be accused of being "speechless," I can feel you are just warming up.<br /><br />This may not solicit much sympathy for Barry, but he's actually caught in a difficult spot. Blacks probably think he's an "oreo." Black on the outside and white in the inside for living in a white upper class neighborhood like Beverly Hills. At the same time I doubt that he feels completely accepted by his neighbors.<br /><br />Possibly another way of looking at Barry's response to Ron Kittle and the kids is that his actions were childish. But that's what happens when you are a celebrity your entire life, people around you are more than willing to cater to your irrational whims. Even when you make racist comments, there are people who will say, "...oh that's just Barry" like Matt Williams did.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Going into the diplomatic corps.<br /><br />You're perfect for the current administration. ......

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I'm simply a grown man who still has heroes. Cal Ripken and Barry Bonds, they are as different as can be, but they are my heroes. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>You got that right....<br /><br />Cal Ripken = good guy<br /><br />Barry Bonds = crap<br /><br />I was thinking of all the petitions I've signed to get Joe Jackson and Pete Rose into the HOF and it's making me want to start one to keep Bonds out.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I'm the one that told you ... that Cobb and Bonds are innocent, until PROVEN guilty. ... You're the one with the guilt trip, and you prove that every time you open your mouth.<br /><br />You have no idea how much I miss the New York Giants fans, and Brooklyn Dodger fans.<br /><br />Willie, Mickey an da Duke<br /><br />Joe P. <br /> <br />... Keller - DiMaggio - Henrich ... watta an outfield.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>In my opinion, Bonds has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt of taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. With his admission of taking steroids and strong circumstantial evidence. I understand and believe in the court system, but find the "no court case = automatic innocence inside and outside the legal system" to be a bogus standard. In fact, it's a standard no one subscribes to. John Wilkes Booth, as just one example, never faced a trial, yet the vast majority of US historians and citizens confidently label him as guilty of assassinating Abraham Lincoln.<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Dsvid, you need to go back and read the leaked grand jury testimony. Bonds NEVER admitted to taking any PEDs. That's people's interpretation of his testimony, but it's not what he actually said.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Jay, <br /><br />What did he say? I was under the impression that he said that he took a cream and clear substance, but did not know what it was. <br /><br /><br />Josh

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think what is most surprising is that adults can still defend sports figures with the lamest arguments on any issue -- no matter how obvious -- as if they were still children arguing at recess. I don't know, but at least for me, even if I love the team or player I can still admit that my "hero" is flawed. By the way, Peter, Cobb's racism during his day was much more 'normal' in society than Bonds' is during his day.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>FROM THE SF CHRONICLE<br /><br />Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by BALCO, the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned. <br /><br />Federal prosecutors charge that the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, known as BALCO, distributed undetectable steroids to elite athletes in the form of a clear substance that was taken orally and a cream that was rubbed onto the body. <br /><br />Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle. <br /><br />Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations. <br /><br />During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone. <br /><br />The documents, many with Bonds' name on them, are dated from 2001 through 2003. They include a laboratory test result that could reflect steroid use and what appeared to be schedules of drug use with billing information, prosecutors told the grand jury. <br /><br />In a September 2003 raid on Anderson's Burlingame home, federal investigators seized documents they said showed Bonds was using banned drugs, according to court records. Anderson was indicted in February on charges of money laundering and conspiracy to distribute steroids in the BALCO case. <br /><br />But Bonds said he had no knowledge of the doping calendars and other records that indicated he had used banned drugs. He said he had never paid Anderson for steroids and had never knowingly used them. <br /><br />And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson "wouldn't jeopardize our friendship" by doing that. <br /><br />Bonds testified he had never discussed steroids with his trainer -- not even after federal agents kicked in Anderson's door to serve their search warrant. That was out of respect for Anderson's privacy, Bonds said. <br /><br />To the prosecutors, the substances Bonds said he was using sounded like "the cream" and "the clear," two steroids designed to be undetectable in laboratory testing that Victor Conte, founder of BALCO, is accused of marketing to elite athletes, sometimes with Anderson as middleman. <br /><br />Bonds said that as far as he knew, Anderson had given him only legal products to treat the arthritis and fatigue that afflicted him, especially when playing a day game after a night game. The trainer brought the products into the Giants' clubhouse at Pac Bell Park "once a homestand," Bonds said, and that's where he used them. <br /><br />"I never asked Greg" about what the products contained, Bonds testified. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.' <br /><br />One week after Bonds testified, New York Yankees first baseman Jason Giambi and his brother Jeremy, both former Oakland A's, described in detail how they had injected themselves with performance-enhancing drugs. The Giambis testified they were drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success. <br /><br />Other players who admitted their use of performance-enhancing drugs were former Giants Armando Rios, Benito Santiago and Bobby Estalella. The players said they had come to know Anderson because he was Bonds' trainer. <br /><br />A sixth witness, Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds had arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico. <br /><br />Sheffield said he had never been told that the substances were steroids. Bonds also was using "the cream" and "the clear," Sheffield said. <br /><br />"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.' <br /><br />"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here." <br /><br />Since the BALCO scandal erupted, Bonds has insisted he never used banned drugs. But in statements they later denied making, both Conte and BALCO Vice President James Valente, also indicted, told investigators that Anderson was supplying steroids to Bonds, court records show. <br /><br />In addition, The Chronicle has reported that in a secretly recorded conversation, Anderson said Bonds had used an "undetectable" performance- enhancing drug during the 2003 season. <br /><br />The ballplayer and the trainer began working out at a gym near BALCO, Bonds said. He said Anderson had also begun providing him with "vitamin and protein shakes." <br /><br />In 2000 or 2001, Bonds said, Anderson persuaded him to undergo blood and urine testing at BALCO as part of a program touted by Conte to market his legal nutritional supplement, ZMA. Bonds said he already was interested in nutrition issues, testifying that he employed both a cook and a "nutritionist at Stanford." <br /><br />Eventually, he said, Anderson began providing him with an array of supplements: "multivitamin to vitamin E to omega 3s to, you know, ZMA - the ZMA that BALCO had - to liver pills to oxygen ... <br /><br />"But I had no doubt what he was giving me, because we were friends." <br /><br />Bonds said he had met Conte, BALCO's president, two or three times but never paid for the nutritional supplements. <br /><br />Instead, he said, he "did an ad" for BALCO in a muscle magazine, a reference to a photo shoot and feature in Muscle & Fitness that quoted Bonds effusively endorsing Conte's ZMA nutritional supplement product. <br /><br />Bonds said he had begun using the cream and the clear substance at a time when he was aching with arthritis and was distraught over the terminal illness of his father, former Giants All-Star Bobby Bonds, who died Aug. 23, 2003. <br /><br />But Bonds said he got little help from Anderson's products. <br /><br />"And I was like, to me, it didn't even work," he told the grand jury. "You know me, I'm 39 years old. I'm dealing with pain. All I want is the pain relief, you know? And you know, to recover, you know, night games to day games. That's it. <br /><br />"And I didn't think the stuff worked. I was like, 'Dude, whatever,' but he's my friend." <br /><br />Eventually, Bonds said he had stopped using the products, telling the grand jury, "If it's a steroid, it's not working." Bonds insisted he had never paid Anderson for drugs or supplements, but he acknowledged paying him $15,000 in 2003 for weight training. <br /><br />"I paid him in cash," Bonds said. "I make $17 million." <br /><br />In answers that sometimes rambled, Bonds sought to vouch for his trainer as a good and honest person who would never traffic in illegal drugs. <br /><br />"Greg is a good guy, you know, this kid is a great kid. He has a child," Bonds said. At another point, he told the grand jury: <br /><br />"Greg has nothing, man. ... Guy lives in his car half the time. He lives with his girlfriend, rents a room so he can be with his kid, you know? <br /><br />Bonds told the grand jurors that he had given Anderson a $20,000 bonus and bought him a ring after the 73-home run season. He also bought the trainer a ring to commemorate the Giants' 2002 World Series appearance. When a juror asked why the wealthy ballplayer hadn't bought "a mansion" for his trainer to live in, Bonds answered: <br /><br />"One, I'm black, and I'm keeping my money. And there's not too many rich black people in this world. There's more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ain't giving my money up." <br /><br />Prosecutor Jeff Nedrow pressed Bonds about the clear liquid Anderson provided. <br /><br />"Did he ever tell you it was a molecularly or chemically altered steroid? Did Greg ever tell you anything like that?" <br /><br />"No, because my other trainer, who is 50 years old, Harvey, was taking the same stuff," Bonds replied. "And he said it's flaxseed oil." <br /><br />Tim Montgomery, a world-class sprinter, had earlier told the grand jury that Conte used flaxseed oil containers when sending "the clear" to athletes at overseas track meets. <br /><br />For much of Bonds' testimony, Nedrow and Assistant U.S. Attorney Ross Nadel methodically questioned him about documents and evidence seized in the probe. Bonds said he had few insights. <br /><br />The prosecutors queried Bonds about calendars -- taken in a raid on Anderson's home -- that contained his name and notes about performance- enhancing drugs. He replied, "I've never had a calendar with him, never had anything." <br /><br />Bonds said he couldn't explain a calendar page with the name "Barry" on it, nor a note indicating an invoice of $450 for blood tests. <br /><br />Likewise, Bonds said he couldn't translate a document that had the notation "! G !" along with "one box off season" and "two box season, $1,500." <br /><br />The prosecutors thought it referred to Bonds' payments for boxes of human growth hormone, but Bonds said, "I don't know what G is." <br /><br />Asked about a reference to a $450 payment for a bottle of the injectable steroid Depo-Testosterone, Bonds replied, "I have never seen this bottle or any bottle pertaining that says Depo-Testosterone." He also denied ever injecting himself with any drug. <br /><br />Other documents suggested Bonds was using Clomid, the fertility drug that enhances the effect of testosterone; modafinil, an anti-narcolepsy drug used as a stimulant; and the steroid trenbolone. <br /><br />"I've never heard of it," Bonds replied to questions about each drug. <br /><br />Asked about the endurance-boosting agent known as EPO, Bonds said, "I couldn't even pronounce it." <br /><br />Queried about insulin, which also can have a steroid-like effect, Bonds said, "Insulin? I'm not a diabetic." <br /><br />Bonds also was quizzed about a document that said, "Barry 12-2-02, T, 1 cc G - pee." <br /><br />A prosecutor asked, "Does that correspond to you getting, you know, growth hormones or testosterone or giving a urine test or anything of those things that you can recall from Mr. Anderson." <br /><br />"T could mean anything," Bonds replied. "G could mean anything. And pee could probably mean anything." <br /><br />Bonds said he had no knowledge of paperwork indicating that starting in 2001, BALCO had been screening his blood not just for nutritional deficiencies but for steroids. <br /><br />"Do you know why BALCO would have been testing for your testosterone level?" he was asked. <br /><br />"I have no idea," Bonds replied. <br /><br />"Do you know why your testosterone level would have been -- according to the report -- higher than the level, the normal range indicated for males 29 to 49 years old?" <br /><br />"I don't understand this piece of paper," Bonds replied. <br /><br />Elevated testosterone levels can indicate steroid use, according to medical experts. <br /><br />Bonds said he hadn't told the Giants staff what he was doing with Anderson because he didn't trust them. <br /><br />"No way ... we don't trust the ball team," Bonds said. "We don't trust baseball. ... Believe me, it's a business. I don't trust their doctors or nothing." <br /><br />Asked whether he had ever discussed the BALCO probe with Anderson, Bonds said, "The only thing I asked Greg, 'What's it like getting your door blown down. Dude, I never seen anything like that except on TV.' That's about as far as we went on it." <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>DavidCycleback:<br /><br />"In my opinion, Bonds has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt of taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. With his admission of taking steroids and strong circumstantial evidence. I understand and believe in the court system, but find the "no court case = automatic innocence inside and outside the legal system" to be a bogus standard. In fact, it's a standard no one subscribes to. John Wilkes Booth, as just one example, never faced a trial, yet the vast majority of US historians and citizens confidently label him as guilty of assassinating Abraham Lincoln."<br /><br /><br /><br /> This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:22 AM<br />This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:19 AM<br />This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:11 AM<br />This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:00 AM<br />This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 3:58 AM<br />This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 3:50 AM<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />David, late breaking news............<br /><br />Observations by an entire audience..<br />After shooting Lincoln, Booth was seen leaping off the Presidential balcony, unto the stage, break his leg in the process, say his E tu Brutus speech, and escape.<br />After seeing Dr Samuel Mudd for his leg, he was cornered elsewhere, and killed while trying to avoid capture.<br />Thus ... no trial. ... What a waste of a captured audience.<br /><br />As for your opinions, they change as often as your editings in a post.<br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Jeff, <br /><br />Were you intentionally trying to be ironic when you said "what is most surprising is that adults can still defend sports figures with the lamest arguments" in the exact same post where you justify Cobb's racism with the lame argument of "By the way, Peter, Cobb's racism during his day was much more 'normal' in society than Bonds' is during his day."?<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ryan -- LOL -- no! But you're right, of course. I suppose in my ham-handed way I meant to point out that the racism of Cobb was not as shocking as the racism exhibited today due to the nature of the two eras. As easy as it is to agree that racism is bad no matter the era (which it is) back then it was part of the fabric of American society. Today, racism obviously still exists but is hardly embraced in the manner it was back then.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Sir Charles said it best, "...I ain't no role-model." I certainly would not use Barry Bonds as a role-model. Definitely, Cal Ripken is a role model and Barry isn't.<br /><br />But when Barry was asked about Balco and the possible indictment earlier this season, Barry came up with the statement that he was ready for the Feds and they should come and get him. Of course, we are horrified by the audacity of the statements, but there's a part of me that says I hope he's not biting off more than he can chew.<br /><br />If all our heroes were like Cal Ripken, life would be boring. Certainly Barry isn't boring. When Barry does crazy things, you are left wondering, "what in the world was Barry thinking about..."<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>What in the world is Peter C thinking about???<br /><br />A penny fot the idle thoughts of Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>After Barry retires and after waiting for 5 years, baseball writers will be passing judgment with their HOF balloting. I am sure that more than some of them will be thinking about whether he deserves to go in on the first ballot. <br /><br />My guess is more than a few of them will be looking at Ty Cobb's career and his eccentric personality and making comparisons with Barry. These writers will be saying, "yeah Barry did crazy things, but he can still play ball." Maybe he won't be at the top of everybody's ballot but he'll still get in on the first try.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I seriously doubt anyone will consider cobb when voting on bonds for the HOF.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycle</b><p>People are also assuming Bonds will be eligible for election. If it is proven that he used steroids for years, aided and supplied drugs to other players, lied about it to a Federal grand jury and the Baseball Commissioner, I would think there would be a good chance Bonds would placed on the baseball's ineligible list. Realize that the evidence in 6-7 years likely will be stronger and tighter than now, perhaps coupled with a court conviction. Today, even the majority of Bonds' supporters believe that he likely used steroids, which is a conversion from just a couple of years ago. When even your supporters believe you did it, that's a bad omen for the future.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />Here's a little bit of irony for you, it's possible that the baseball card(s) will save Barry. I'm sure that Bud Selig is worried about what Barry would say on the stand, that's probably part of the reason that he had his hands in his pockets when Barry hit the record-tying homer.<br /><br />Bud also tried to muzzle Jason Giambi before he spoke with Sen. Mitchell.<br /><br />The owners and MLB are trying to put some political spin on this whole steroid controversy because they have the most to lose in terms of prestige and money. Steinbrenner and other owners are probably calling the politicians right now to put a lid on this matter.<br /><br />My guess is that the owners and MLB will be successful, and it will be a decade before we find out the role of MLB and the owners in this whole sordid mess.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>What are you talking about in your last post?<br />It looks like you are trying to address several topics, but I couldn't follow any of them.<br />What about Barry's baseball cards? how will they save Barry?<br />What are you insinuating about Selig?<br /><br />People like to blame Selig for this whole mess, but unless he is actually administering the drugs, I don't understand how he is to blame for other people breaking rules, laws, and participating in unethical behavior.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Now that I read over my last post, I have to admit it was pretty cryptic.<br /><br />Right now Barry realizes that the Feds are playing hardball. He knows the race card won't work in this situation. However, he has the baseball card, which is he can bring the owners and MLB down with him.<br /><br />The owners and Bud Selig already realize this and they are busy calling politicians right now. Eventually, people are going to cool down and realize it's better to not blow up the steroid issue at this time.<br /><br />Some time down the road, maybe Canseco or some other ballplayer will expose Bud Selig and the MLB owners' role in this mess.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Play the race card? What are you talking about?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>THAT baseball "card"....I get the play on words.<br />I'm nothing if not slow. ...thanks for the clarification.<br />-because, you know, wouldn't that be amazing if the solution to this whole thing was actually printed on the back of a baseball card, hidden in secret code?<br /><br />I know this differs with the opinion you and many others have about this whole issue, but I am having trouble seeing what could possibly incrimate the league, the commissioner, or the team offices. We are learning that players took illegal drugs to enhance their performance. The league initiated a drug-testing program (granted, it took longer than people wanted to put it in place). Now, this beahvior is cheating and cheaters get punished according to a set of rules. Where is the wrong-doing on the part of the officials? I still don't fully understand what is being presumed here.<br /><br />Edited to add: <br />I would love to believe Barry, but I am beginning to have my doubts, because the 42 gallons of flaxssed oil I have taken since he clarified things have done absolutely nothing for me. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I now have developed a rather noxious odor from it.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I'm referring to O.J. Simpson and his dream team. There were many attorneys who thought that O.J. and Johnny Cochran were just playing the "race card" by trying to expose the racism of the LA police dept.<br /><br />Well...Barry knows it won't work here because there isn't sufficient indication of racism.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So, you think that Barry and his lawyers actually had a conversation in which they opined over the possibility of claiming that his steriod situation with Major League Baseball was similar to the historic racism and targeting of blacks by the LAPD? Peter, you made more sense when you were singing the praises of the Va Tech shooter.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>please tell me you made that one up

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Something like that...then the attorneys said it's not going to work...then somebody got the bright idea, but I know how to get the MLB and the owners on our side quickly. So maybe Michael Rains or somebody else has been calling the baseball owners and giving them the message that Barry doesn't plan on taking the entire rap...he's going to bring owners and the MLB down with him.<br /><br />Is the whole scenario far-fetched...it certainly is, but it is consistent with how money and power works in the United States.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />Jeff is just being argumentative...I wasn't praising the cold blooded killer, I was merely trying to figure out his warped view of the world. But let's not discuss that massacre again.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jason, Peter is right, I was just supporting my argument that Peter often makes no sense, such as when he described the Va Tech killer as 'noble.' Peter, why do you always have to assume that the powers that be in our country are totally base and dishonest? Can you honestly say that you believe that Michael Rains has had contact with the owners of Major League Baseball teams to discuss Barry's legal strategies?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />How about this for irony I just noticed on Yahoo News that a New York publisher is going to publish OJ's book, "If I did it." OJ's just asking for it.<br /><br />To get back to your questions...I simply believe that among the Powers That Be...it is still one hand washes the other. Barry is paying big bucks to his attorney and they are calling for favors.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So the criminal lawyer is calling in 'favors' from Major League Baseball? Tell us how that works.

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Jeff<br /><br />I think you missed Peter's subtlety. Bonds' attornies aren't calling <i>in</i> favors; Peter indicated they are calling <i>for</i> favors. Apparently, I must have missed the class which taught the law of tenders for favors in law school....<br /><br />And I thought tax law was complicated.<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Max, sorry I missed that. Now it makes all the sense in the world.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jason, the reason people blame Selig is that when McGwire was caught with Andro, they knew then that players were up to something. He could have easily stepped in and clamped down on this sort of drug use. He decided to do nothing because baseball was making a comeback and he didn't to killed the golden goose. Only when everything blew up in his face did he final come forward to try and do something. <br /><br />To me, someone defending Selig is worse than what you guys think of someone that defends Bonds.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So Selig is more culpable than Bonds in this whole mess?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I think the idea of Bonds taking baseball down with him is ludicrous. Barry is responsible for his own actions and his alleged steroid use, perjury and tax evasion have nothing to do with MLB.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />From what we know, clearly it's far-fetched. But we don't know what Barry knows, and if Barry starts blabbing that may lead to investigations of MLB and Bud Selig. Who knows, I'm just speculating.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>What impact will The Card have on this?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Oh yah...The Card...I guess sometimes I do get carried away.<br /><br />But two facts which lend some credibility to this scenario is that Bud Selig told Jason Giambi to limit some of his testimony to Senator Mitchell. <br /><br />And Tony Gwynn when he was inducted into the HOF mentioned that the steroid problem was generally known among baseball people. Now Tony has never been known to shoot off his mouth. So you know he chose his words very carefully, which leads me to think that if anything, he understated the problem. <br /><br />Peter C.<br /><br />Edited to add: There's also a third fact, Bonds was shooting off his mouth about how the Feds should come and get him. Maybe, it wasn't all bravado, maybe he does have some hidden cards up his sleeve. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, I would say yes, becuase if he had stepped in right away done something when McGwire got caught, then the chances of Bonds cheating would have lessened. Although I doubt it would have stopped him, or anyone else that used PEDs that they new were undetectable.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, I don't care for Selig for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the steroid era. And I don't disagree at all with you that he, along with the rest of the owners, obviously are complicit in the spread of steroids in MLB. Notice I don't say that they simply turned a blind eye: I think their actions (and lack of action) make them complicit. All that being said, I think ultimately a man has to take responsibility for his own actions and any rational player who took steroids knew he was cheating. It was always the 'dirty secret' in the clubhouse because it was just that -- a secret -- because the juicers knew what they were doing was wrong. They are the first in line for blame, with the owners right behind them.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The thing is that during the time frame when people claim Bonds was using PEDs, there was nothing in the rules against it. Unethical? probably. Cheating by definition of the rules? No. Not unless he did it after they made rules against it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>There were also no rules against wearing shoes with rockets to propel players around the bases. If it's unethical in baseball that's enough for me - especially when the users knew enough to hide what they were doing.

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Barry Bonds was part of the reason WHY major leauge baseball had to enact PED laws/testing. Saying that he's not guilty because MLB never said it was wrong to take PED's is retarded. I echo what Jeff said about how they knew that they shouldn't have been taking PED's or why would they hide it? If it was o.k. for them to take PED's then you know Bonds or McGuire or one of those jackasses would've been making extra money promoting BALCO products. <br /><br />Zach S.<br /><br /><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/BarryBonds.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Good point, Zach. However, Bonds did actually do ads for Balco -- but wouldn't you know it, he only appeared in ads promoting vitamin supplements and not the 'flaxseed oil' he was supposedly rubbing on himself.

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Jeff, was it something like this?<br /><br />Look what BALCO products did for Barry! Blow up with BALCO!<br /><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/barry-bonds-photo.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a><br /><br />This is a future BALCO advertisement when Barry's estrogen levels start to rise.<br /><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/barryindrag.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>He will get in<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Now that Barry has the HR record, I just hope his head doesn't swell up more.<br /><br />Peter C.