Why Do Oldtime Dealers over grade their cards?

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Posted By: <b>Rand</b><p>whats the deal with getting the older dealers to correctly grade their cards? i bought 2 different groups of cards from 2 different dealers (raw) and their assessments were 2 grades higher than the cards really were. these guys own psa/sgc graded cards, so they have a benchmark to work with, yet they think their wrinkled crap is all ex ++. any opinion??

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Posted By: <b>robert</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />Some say it's because these fellows were around before the grading people.<br />So they consider their grading scale to be correct.<br /><br />Rob

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Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />I don't think you should view their grading as over-graded. It may be over-graded compared to PSA or SGC, etc. But each individual has his own grading scale. Some old school graders seem to be right on the mark compared to PSA and SGC. And, frankly, the old school dealers started the original grading scale. <br /><br />To state an example, I have bought raw cards from Barry Sloate and found them to be very well graded (compared to PSA). Some were even better than I expected. And Barry may not be old, but he is old school.<br /><br />I think what you need to do is check how a particular seller grades his cards, then go from there. Some major dealers sometimes get bad reviews from their grading. But if you check sellers like Barry Sloate or Larry Fristch or Dave Levin or Gar Miller or any other old school seller, I think you will find that they are very consistent. Their Ex may not match your Ex. But usually their Ex is very consistent to all of their cards graded Ex. And you will also find that sometimes you get very nice cards for the grades indicated. Maybe sometimes you won't. But the better dealers always allow you to return a card if you are not satisfied. So learn the sellers particular grading scale and pay the price of the card accordingly.<br /><br />I hope this helps you a little. Because it shouldn't be a fight of old vs. new. One just has to realize that grading is truly subjective, then go from there.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Cy<br />

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>It's not just the oldtime dealers. It's human nature. At any show, a dealer will tell the buyer, "it's not really that bad", "the crease hardly shows", "you can hardly see the wear", etc,...while the buyer will point out more flaws on the card like "this corner is worse than I thought", "this edge is bad", "I didn't see that smudge at first" etc,...

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Posted By: <b>Chris East</b><p>My favorite is how that statement applies to graded cards as well, although moreso with weekend dealers/new dealers. Almost every graded card "should have been a [insert 1-2 grades higher than grade received]" or is "a high-end" card for the grade and a great candidate for resubmission for a bump.<br /><br />I think I've seen one listing (either on eBay or the BST here) where the seller actually described it as a "low-end [whatever the PSA/SGC grade was]."

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>I remember writing a letter to SCD about 8-9 years ago commending Barry Sloate for a description of a card in one of his auctions that read something like "PSA 6 but really should have been a 5 at best."<br /><br />The reason it was worth a letter then was it was the first time I'd read something like that. I've not seen a similar description since. Guess that was the only time a grading service missed on the high side.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>The old-time dealers don't overgrade their cards; it's a vast conspiracy on the part of the grading industry to eliminate the very useful grade of VG-MINT.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Rand</b><p>That sums it all up!! that statement is so true. i like, this card would be mint if it wasnt for the 2" crease and the paper loss on the back.

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Posted By: <b>John Harrell</b><p>If you look at old copies of Beckett's (15 years ago), old copies of Tuff Stuff, or other old price guides, you'll see very standard grades for cards. A VG card could have minor creases. A NM card could have one fuzzy corner. An EXMT card would have 4 fuzzy corners. These were accepted standards for many years, until we got slabbed cards. The old dealers simply keep their original standards, which I personally prefer. I don't think they, as a whole, are trying to fool anybody, although I agree that trying to pass a card off as NM, EX, or VG with paper loss or significant damage is not ethical. I occasionally buy slabbed cards to fill holes in my binders, and it amuses me that a slabbed card with sharp corners, nice centering, and a slight wrinkle is graded GD. It would often have graded EX or certainly no worse than VGEX under the old system, which was fine with me as I collect lower grade cards anyway. Granted, I don't don't get to shows or shops anymore, since there are none where I live, and Ebay is basically my only source for my collection. However, I wouldn't consider an card description using the old grading system to be deceptive.<br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>What infamous oldtime card dealer claimed, "If I say it's mint and you say it's mint, ain't it mint?"

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Cy. I'm an oldtime dealer and I'm even getting old.<br /><br />The oldtime dealers who overgrade know they are doing so. But they are stubborn and refuse to conform to the current standards.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I'll take a wild guess. Mr. Mint himself, Al Rosen. Actually, I don't have a clear idea of his grading standards, I assume that he sells almost all PSA or SGC graded cards.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>In all seriousness, my little crack wasn't meant to be disrespectful to all long-time dealers as I'm generally not one to make blanket statements like that. With apologies to Barry, Mark Macrae, or any of the other good guys out there.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>To maximize their income.<br /><br />Generally subtract a minimum of two grades for old time ungraded dealers(I am sure there are exceptions).<br /><br />Peter--you can't be serious--this is the guy who led a one-man crusade against grading until it drove his business into the ground. Now he is reduced to hustling unsuspecting sellers at major card shows or in the case of the last National sitting off at a table with one or two colleagues complaining why he didn't get a better table.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>us "old time collectors" (defined as people who collected pre 1985***)<br />know that david claimed to have invented the grading system! He is the Al Gore ofthe grading scale!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Where's Festberg these days ?

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Why do dogs lick their balls?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Interesting segue, Jay!

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Posted By: <b>Marty Pritchard</b><p>My thought is the best way to judge how someone grades is see if they use the same scale when you sell to them. If they do, they are not trying to over grade their stuff, they are being consistant. If they slam your cards, take them back and discuss their cards and prices. Everyone uses their own judgement with raw cards. Mail order is really the only place that a grade is of value. In person, a price is a percentage of book and is either acceptible or not. With mail order, it is wise to place a small order the first time, or verify the return policy.