PDA

View Full Version : The World's Stupidist Stat


Archive
07-20-2007, 07:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>This may be slightly off topic but please feel free to discuss any stats relating to vintage baseball. My vote goes to the hold. In today's Cub/Giant game Will Ohman threw six pitches to the only batter he faced; that batter hit a home run. Will was credited with a hold. Someone please explain to me what he could have done worse, and yet he gets rewarded.

Archive
07-20-2007, 07:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>The box score on ESPN.go.com is reporting no hold for Ohlman but a hold for Marmol:<br /><br /><a href="http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270719116" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270719116</a><br /><br />The hold isn't a bad statistic. <br /><br />The most OVERRATED stat is batting average. Batting average says that 1B=2B=3B=HR and BB=0. It is an overrated statistic because way too much is made of its worth. It basically tells how many times a guy puts a ball in play safely and that's it. It is valuable but not as valuable as baseball history would like us to think.

Archive
07-20-2007, 07:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>How about Game Winning RBI? Which I'm not even certain is a stat anymore.

Archive
07-20-2007, 07:45 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Thanks Andrew, Yahoo showed him getting a hold.

Archive
07-20-2007, 08:05 PM
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>on batting average....<br /><br /><br />Career leaders all time batting average:<br /><br />1. Ty Cobb+* .3664 L <br />2. Rogers Hornsby+ .3585 R <br />3. Joe Jackson* .3558 L <br />4. Lefty O'Doul* .3493 L <br />5. Ed Delahanty+ .3459 R <br />6. Tris Speaker+* .3447 L <br />7. Ted Williams+* .3444 L <br />8. Billy Hamilton+* .3443 L <br />9. Dan Brouthers+* .3421 L <br />10. Babe Ruth+* .3421 L <br /><br />Fair list of players I would have thought <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. Only one non HOF'er (and one should-be based on results, not politics) and a reasonably handy buch of hitters.<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br />

Archive
07-20-2007, 08:36 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What is a hold? I've never heard of it.<br /><br />The least important stat is most times reaching first base on catcher's interference.

Archive
07-20-2007, 08:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Saves are really overrated, because they don't really indicate anything other than that the guy pitched the final inning of a game. Many managers now use closers only in the 9th inning, even if the 7th or 8th inning was the one where the game was in doubt. I say you should use your best pitcher in the most important situation, ie runners on, less than 2 outs and a one run lead, rather than waiting till the 9th exclusively to use your closer.<br /><br />Batting average is overrated too.<br /><br />There have been many very one-dimensional players who have hit .300(ie Riggs Stephenson), and lots of very good players who have hit .250(ie Darrell Evans).<br /><br />Evans was a far superior offensive and defensive player to Stephenson, but no one tries to get him elected to the hall. Yet Stephenson who hit .336 in an inflated offensive era, with little power and no arm is considered by some to be a viable candidate for the hall.<br /><br />That is why batting average is overrated, it only tells a very small part of a players value, but people act like it is the sole factor in determining greatness.

Archive
07-20-2007, 09:02 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Another game recently exposed just how stupid the hold stat is. I forget the game, but the pitcher came in with with a 2 run lead and the bases empty. He proceeded to the load the bases. Another pitcher was brought in who gave up a three run it. The first reliever was credited with a hold while the last pitcher got a blown save.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Archive
07-20-2007, 09:11 PM
Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>barry, i thought a hold was when a pitcher comes in and does his job by not given up a run credited to him. but with jay's example, the pitcher who loaded the bases is responsible for the runners and should not have been given a hold since the next pitcher came in and allowed the runs to score but doesnt affect his era.<br /><br />me personally think that if there is a runner on base and the picher comes out, the next pitcher gives up a hit to score that run, both pitchers should get 1/2 run to their era, not just he pitcher who allowed him on base. i think that why these pitchers today have such high eras. the set up man or closer is not doing their jobs

Archive
07-20-2007, 09:14 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It sounds kind of subjective, and stats need precision.

Archive
07-20-2007, 11:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>The save rule has changed over time, but as I understand it, a pitcher can now "earn" a save by entering a game where the tying run is in the on-deck circle, so long as he completes the game without the score being tied. So, in the instance with a slow footed team, a pitcher could come in the ninth with a five-run lead, the bases loaded and needing one out to win, give up seven straight singles to score four and reload the bases, get his catcher to pick off a runner to end the game, and get his save, having himself retired no batters.

Archive
07-20-2007, 11:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>The save, is a stat that was totally created by agents in order to more clearly define the value of the pitchers they represented. Before that, relief pitchers had little leverage in salary negotiations, because they rarely had meaningful Won/Loss records. Now, agents are trying to define a new stat, the hold, so that the same stratagies can be extended to set-up men, who have neither W/L records nor saves.

Archive
07-21-2007, 12:30 AM
Posted By: <b>Brian Lindholme</b><p>I agree about Agents influencing stats such as the HOLD.<br /><br />If the situational pitcher didn't have that meaningless stat, how else would he become a multi-millionaire? And how else could an agent representing an otherwise mediocre pitcher get 10% of that fortune? Certainly not by bringing a 2-3 WL record and 85 innings pitched to the bargaining table!<br /><br />Other useless stats include Putouts by catcher when the pitcher strikes out the batter...excuse me but that's backwards. Credit the catcher when some rifle-armed right fielder guns a runner down at the plate...not for the pitcher's pitch.<br /><br />To further point out the irony...<br /><br />Some debate could be made about the backward nature of the assist and putout in the first place...I mean why not credit the player guarding the Hot Corner for the putout when he makes a diving stab of a line smash and gets up to throw out the runner. Give the first baseman an assist because he caught the ball:)<br /><br />Brian L<br />familytoad

Archive
07-21-2007, 04:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Of the stats that are regularly reported, I'd have to say games pitched is the "stupidist" one. Any durability stat that ranks Jesse Orosco and Mike Stanton #1 and #2 with Cy Young and Walter Johnson at #18 and #36 has a serious construct validity problem.

Archive
07-21-2007, 08:23 AM
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>what the crap? It's a HOME RUN...........<br />

Archive
07-21-2007, 11:15 AM
Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>A relief pitcher can earn credit for a save in one of three ways:<br /><br />1) He pitches the last three innings of a game and his team wins.<br />2) He enters the game up by three runs or less, pitches a full inning, and finishes the game.<br />3) He enters the game with the tying run on deck, he finishes the game and his team wins.<br />

Archive
07-21-2007, 11:21 AM
Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />"Tough call Andrew July 19 2007, 8:05 PM <br /><br /><br />on batting average....<br /><br /><br />Career leaders all time batting average:<br /><br />1. Ty Cobb+* .3664 L <br />2. Rogers Hornsby+ .3585 R <br />3. Joe Jackson* .3558 L <br />4. Lefty O'Doul* .3493 L <br />5. Ed Delahanty+ .3459 R <br />6. Tris Speaker+* .3447 L <br />7. Ted Williams+* .3444 L <br />8. Billy Hamilton+* .3443 L <br />9. Dan Brouthers+* .3421 L <br />10. Babe Ruth+* .3421 L <br /><br />Fair list of players I would have thought . Only one non HOF'er (and one should-be based on results, not politics) and a reasonably handy buch of hitters."<br /><br />I never said good players do not ever hit for high average. All I said is that it is overrated and too much emphasis is placed on it. With regards to the above ten players, every one of them did other things to help their cause. They just weren't "punch and judy" hitters who hit singles everywhere for a high average. <br /><br />The point is this: batting average does very little to prove how valuable a player is offensely. The poster who used the Riggs Stephenson versus Darrell Evans analogy hit the nail on the head.