T215 Pirates group in Mastro Live Auction

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>From our friends at SGC:<br /><br />"We want to make it absolutely positively clear that the group of 1912 T215 "Pirate" cigarette cards in the upcoming Mastro sale are NOT hand cut. Every one was carefully examined by the SGC graders. They have all of the characteristics of a card that has been cut with a machine at a factory. The cards were cut very similarly to T206s and have the same traits that we outlined in the T206 trimming article some months ago in the SGC Collector magazine. When we graded these T215s we were well aware of the fact that a few T215s have been sold in the past few years that were hand cut. However, that does not mean that every T215 was hand cut and these most certainly were not hand cut. If you have any questions on these or any other SGC graded cards feel free to call our offices."<br /><br /><br />edited to put parenthesis to be more clear that this originated from SGC<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Do we call Leon's office, SGC or Mastro's office???<br /><br />Thanks for the heads up, but Is this message being put out by Leon, or all of the above? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Maybe the statement was issued by a group of Cubans living in Alaska, Joe.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If you can read maybe you should read this at the end of the statement...<br /><br />"If you have any questions on these or any other SGC graded cards feel free to call our offices."<br /><br /><br />and as I said it was from SGC that is where you should call.....and I still don't have a clue about your Cuban post...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Most of us get it but had you put "...." around the statement it would have been absolutely clear from where it originated.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Maybe it's a connection to Global warming, and cardboard Meltdown? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Count me suspicious about the T215 Pirates unless some legit provenance pops up. I don't care what SGC says, unless these came from some unknown overseas horde, I would stay away from this if I had that kind of $$$ (which I probably never will). By the way, why the heck are they called T215's anyway? Isn't that Red Crosses designation?

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>How many total of these Pirate backs are there in circulation, aka what's the pop report on these cards? <br />Also, does anyone have an image/scan of a Pirate cigarette pack? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>And I would go as far as saying, that if you thought about it ... you would also be able to tell us the reason why.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Is the Mastro auction at National limited only to invitees only or can anyone bid there?

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>Joe,<br />Until you can appologize for your lack of common courtesy towards me, please refrain from responding to any of my posts. <br />Thank you. <br />Josh<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>Although the information is still pretty sparse on the Live Auction, Mastro does have a "live preview" link up on their website with some of the items that will be available.<br /><br />Per their website, items in the live auction will be available for online bidding starting July 23rd. <br /><br />As far as actually showing up and bidding in person, that does require an invitation.<br /><br />Regards and see you in Cleveland!<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>There are only 3 on PSA's pop. report. Aside from this new horde, I don't think SGC ever graded any.<br /><br />They use the same images as the T215 Red Cross issues, ergo the T215 designation (which is probably outdated, but shouldn't be changed at this point).<br /><br />Supposedly, the Mastro horde was the group upon which the original checklist was created. I've only heard that once, however (maybe even on here).<br /><br />Finally, I was under the impression that there was only one of each player/pose. Depending upon the breadth of the Mastro horde, there may be 1-2 of each player/pose (or more than one on some, but not all subjects)...<br /><br />P.S. I don't see any reason to be suspicious about T215 Pirates in general, however, it seems a little unusual that such a grouping of such a rare type have been discovered all of a sudden.

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>Thanks Cobby!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So now we're suspicious about SGC's ability to spot a hand-cut card? Don't you guys think that SGC was especially careful with this group of cards considering their significance to the hobby?

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Joe,<br />"Until you can appologize for your lack of common courtesy towards me, please refrain from responding to any of my posts. <br />Thank you." <br />Josh<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Sonny, look again.<br />You're the one that keeps touching on the topic.<br />Looks like I touched a truth nerve.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I'm working on another "find" in my basement right now!<br />a large group of T215, a mint stash of T227, and 3 Wagners.<br /><br />When I'm done, I'll transport them from my basement to my grandpa's attic, and then onto Ebay! I'll let you know how they turn out <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I hear the FBI is investigating their grading.....I read it in the newspaper....it has to be true.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>Jason, <br /><br />With that stash, you can buy the Cubs! <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, you couldn't have read it in a newspaper. You just think you read it. I don't see a copy of the newspaper article. I think it's imaginary. Did you actually read it or did you dream you read it? You'll need to post it here. With the date showing. And a picture of you holding a sheet of paper saying "I'm Leon and I pee in my back yard when I'm not lighting myself on fire in my front yard" next to it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jeff changed his avatar and now I'm all freaked out. It's like walking into my office and having the furniture be all rearranged. <br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The allegation was reprinted from a year ago.....so it has to be absolutely, unequivocally true today....

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Just curious.... Is there an over/under on this lot? Real expensive?<br /><br />$90ish ?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Al, I think you may be seeing things.<br /><br />Before you begin to think you've lost your mind...the Cracker Jack Chase just didn't do it for me either. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>I think 90K would be an absolute bargain. But that's just me.<br /><br />Think about it, less than 1K per card? No way.<br /><br />I was thinking that the lot may go for more like 500K or more. Maybe I'm crazy but again that's just me.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'll guess 300K-400K.

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Posted By: <b>Mark M</b><p>I wonder if Pirates should even have an ACC designation since they was produced by an English tobacco company. None of that issuer's boxing cards has an ACC designation. I know the images are the same as Red Cross and they may have been distributed to U.S. military persons oversees, but these were not sold in the U.S. or issued by a U.S. company.

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>I wouldn't care if they were hand cut or not.<br />You can't find them either way.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:<br /><br />A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Yup!<br /><br />Pretty neat, huh?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am sure you are saying the FBI think as tongue in cheek? It's hard to tell behind a keyboard, sometimes. I was joking of course. As for these being factory cut....I trust SGC.....

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>They were sent to SGC and graded because they were deemed factory cut under the standards explained in their very enlightening articles on how to detect trimmed T205 and T206 cards. It's not that they deemed them factory cut because they wrote an article saying they were factory cut, as your post suggests. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:<br /><br />A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.<br /><br /><br />Kevin"<br /><br />Kevin,<br />You are wrong here on a number of counts. It is my understanding that these come from an old collection from which the original checklist was made. Thus they do NOT constitute a new find - just a re-emergence to the hobby. I would not consider the Nagy or Carter collections new finds to the hobby. There are more than three others known. I would guess we can come up with more than three in the collections of board members. They were sent to SGC, examined carefully and found to have been factory cut, not hand cut. They each received numerical grades from SGC.<br /><br />Why are people here so fond of spreading fear and paranoia? When there is substance, great. But let's not create it out of nowhere. You all sound like the government sometimes. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB<br /><br /><br />edited for spelling

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Wasn't trying to spread fear.<br /><br />I said "correct me if I am wrong"....and you did just that! So now I understand <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Good chance on the next doorprize..........what the Pirates will go for.......<br />I'm banking on post 500K<br />

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>The auction houses often publicize the origins of a rare item. Has Mastro done so here? I would be interested to know how one collector long ago was able to essentially monopolize this set. He had more than 90 and no one else had more than one. <br /><br />I'm not at all suggesting anything fishy. I just think it would be a very interesting story.<br /><br />Edited to change "fishing" to "fishy".

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Posted By: <b>Anthony</b><p>Didn't one collector monopolize the Alpha Engraving set? And the Allegheny set? Tough to do, but it certainly seems possible.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>Card collecting is very well established in the UK. They make us look like rank amateurs.<br />The Pirates are a European issue and it would make perfect sense if the only known hoard of them to date came from an advanced collector over there. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if these were not the only group to exist. The reason they are so rare here is that in order to get back to the US, it would have to travel back after being kept by a soldier at war.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I dunno...just something seems odd about the whole thing. Just can't put my finger on it. <br /><br />Sure would like to examine one (or more) in person though. I trust my unbiased eyes.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Has anybody else noticed the tendancy on this board for people to bash the cards they don't have from the Gretzky Wagner to the T206 Cobb/Cobb back, T206 Doyle, virtually all high grade vintage cards, and now these Pirates? Maybe a little honest self-reflection is in order.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Unbiased?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- in all fairness, since I was the one who started the thread that questioned whether the Cobb with Cobb back was truly a T206, were we bashing it or simply saying there is a reasonable chance that it has been improperly attributed? It seemed like an intelligent discussion with no bashing at all.<br /><br />And while I believe that there is nothing at all wrong with this group of Pirate cards, it is a little unusual that typically one shows up every couple of years and then suddenly 95 appear in one place. At the very least, it's a head turner.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I honestly do not know what you are talking about.<br /><br />On another topic, your E93 Matty looks trimmed. And it sucks, too. Because I am empathetic to your plight, I am willing to take it off your hands for the SMR price.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Main Entry: un·bi·ased <br />Pronunciation: "&n-'bI-&st<br />Function: adjective<br /><br />1 : free from bias; especially : free from all prejudice and favoritism : eminently fair &lt;an unbiased opinion&gt;.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Oh. Okay.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>"My understanding...and please correct me if I am wrong:<br /><br />A hoard of desired and valuable cards show up, virtually out of nowhere. Previously only three graded (known?) and were all hand cut. Now an auction company who admittedly alters cards and is under investigation by the FBI is selling them. They were sent to SGC but not graded(?), where each were deemed factory cut based on an article their boss (let’s not go there) wrote.<br /><br />Wasn't trying to spread fear.<br /><br />I said "correct me if I am wrong"....and you did just that! So now I understand."<br /><br /><br />Kevin,<br /><br />Please explain the following?<br /><br />1. Do you have any evidence that Mastro is being investigated by the FBI (other than O'keefe's article)? If so, what specifically are they being investigated for? Coin gate? etc...<br /><br />2. Doug Allen admitted to preparing cards under the guidelines of tier "1" which SGC defined as "not alteration" and or not detectable. So are you saying that Mastro Alter's cards beyond tier "1" or are you just finding fault with SGC's definition of alteration? If so, do you think you are more qualified than SGC to define "alteration"?<br /><br />3. Are you suggesting that SGC is not qualified to grade these cards because of the article written in SGC magazine? Or is there some other conflict of interest that exists that you are implying? Do you believe that SGC graded these cards for Mastro, knowing full well they are trimmed or hand-cut? You did assert in another previously thread that the cards were indeed trimmed or hand-cut. I think you said to stay way away from this lot? Do you believe they are qualified enough to grade these cards or do you think they need to spend some time looking over your shoulder?<br /><br />4. Lastly, please explain what you mean by (lets not go there)?<br /><br /><br />Thank you<br /><br />CB<br /><br /><br />edited for spelling

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Barry,<br />The thread you started was only the most recent of several. I have no problem with genuine pursuit of knowledge and I did not have you in mind with my comment. I am speaking more generally of the tone of the board. But I would rather not have this spin into another 300 post thread so if it heads in that direction, I will bow out.<br />JimB<br /><br />edited for grammar (for Barry <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Does anyone know if Edgar W-T had any Pirate backed baseball cards in his collection?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This won't reach 300 posts- 250 tops! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Just to be clear, I wasn't bashing. I just think it would be interesting to hear how this group was put together. <br /><br />The Alleghenys were found as a set and kept as a set (for awhile). The Alphas were also found as a set and kept as a set (for awhile). After the first time the set was broken up, a single collector tracked them all down and built the set again. An amazing story. I'd like to hear what happened with these Pirates. Why are they so rare compared to the Pirate cards that picture Chinese people on the front? And how did almost all of them end up in one place? Richard's explanation is a good start, but it still seems like there should have been a few more smaller hoards outside the US.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have no issue with 90'ish of these turning up at once. I think there will be many more "finds" like this in the coming years. Maybe not T215's (or maybe so) but there will be more.... I couldn't believe it when I turned up the Western Playground set....but it happened. My question is where did the designation for these come from? I just checked the ACC and the Sports Collectors Bible. It didn't come from them? best regards

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Curious -- I was surprised that Mastro is offering these cards in one lot due to their extreme individual value. In short, how many people can pay a few hundred grand for the lot? These cards are incredibly rare - wouldn't Mastro have made out much better offering them individually?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For reasons I just explained in my email I don't think so....After the first 10-20 (or maybe a few more) a lot of type collectors would be set. Then the set collectors would have no hope of completing the set.....I think there will be a handful of folks going into the higher territory. I won't be one of them.. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>But this is the ultimate 'back' -- rarer than a Drum back by far, no? Even non-type card collectors would want one of these due to scarcity, no?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>A lot of folks don't collect backs...especially old time collectors. I have seen a few collections that had all E92's lumped together...regardless of back....It's hard to say which would have realized more but obviously Mastro thought the whole group together will....

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Still waiting for Kevin to explain his accusations? I wonder if putting a smiley face at the end of the confratative claim absolves him of any responsibilty from being truthful?<br /><br />CB<br /><br />edited for peaceful communication

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the only logical way to sell them is in a group, especially since it is a near set. They are going to get several heavy hitters going head to head, the group will sell for a fortune, and then disappear for the foreseeable future.<br /><br />If you break them into smaller groups fifty different people will own anywhere from one to several and every year a dozen of them will reappear for sale and the mystique will be gone. They will become another one of those sets where the cards are rare, but if you miss one you will always have another chance.

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>It will be very exciting for those physically there at the live auction to see what happens. <br /><br />Leon - Are you going ?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will be at the live auction and I am sure quite a few board members and Net54 dinner attendees will be there too. I sent a donation for cancer research a few days ago. It's a great cause and I am happy to donate and go have fun with the Mastro folks....They are a great bunch...

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Still waiting for Kevin to explain his accusations?"<br /><br /><br /><br />I’m not accusing anyone of anything. Just trying to get a better understanding of the big picture from information gathered. I believe everything was already explained to me. Wow, talk about trying to make something out of nothing...are you nuts?<br /><br />Answers to all of the questions - I don’t have a clue.<br /><br />I do know if any were hand cut, I personally would stay away from them.<br />

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I have seen a few that were trimmed, that is not handcut, at least to me. The reason you see them trimmed is that most of the originals I have seen show varying degrees of tilt cut on the top and bottom border, the Mastro lot appears to have this same characteristic. FYI the lot/collection did come from outside the US. For the record I do have an untampered one.<br /><br /><img src="http://members.auctionhawk.com/sb1/2936144-scan0002.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://members.auctionhawk.com/sb1/2936145-scan0003.jpg"><br /><br />If you'll notice it is has a tilt cut and displays the same characteristics of the Mastro cards, although it came from a very well know collector/dealer years ago from his personal type collection.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>that in 1995 or 1996 Martin Murray (or his partner) suggested to me either ownership or first hand knowledge of 90 sumptin Pirate cards. As it was an overseas issue and available within a more sophisticated English market - it is not unreasonable to assume that a dedicated collector and large dealer - could accumulate that many. It is unusual though that given the extremely low population figures and no more than a handfull of duplicates known to date - that one could have that many rare cards all different without some possible suggestion they were obtained contemporaneous to their original issueance. If they came in packs of smokes distributed to servicemen perhaps a soldier went around collecting them. Maybe one person smoked all the packs. The implied condition suggests other plausible explanations as I assume when you are at war there wasn't much time for top-loaders. Of course maybe it was the supply Sergeant who never left the comfort of an office.... The truth is I'm not even sure the cards were ever actually distributed. I'm not looking for ghosts or scandals where there are none. I just am UNAWARE of literature relating to the card's distribution or other confirmation such as company literature - witnessed opening of a vintage pack with a card in it and the like. If the cards were never actually distributed might that not allow for such a grouping? Other things have survived just because an artist or printer might have liked them. Is it an accepted fact that they were distributed? I have no doubt they are real (yes I know - they're real and they're spectacular) yet there is quite a mystique surrounding them as with all obscure issues. Can anyone add something substantive about the issue?

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>"I do know if any were hand cut, I personally would stay away from them."<br /><br />Is this due to re-backing concerns or simply personal preference?<br /><br />Aren't T215 Red Cross scarce enough and valueable enough to have it be freakin' crazy to skin them?

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"In the absence of evidence to the contrary, always assume the best."

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Is this due to re-backing concerns or simply personal preference?<br /><br />Aren't T215 Red Cross scarce enough and valueable enough to have it be freakin' crazy to skin them?"<br /><br /><br /><br />For the money these type of cards go for I would be very concerned with rebacking issues if they were hand cut or trimmed. <br /><br />You don't need a T215 Red Cross card, a T206 will do just fine.<br /><br /><br />Kevin<br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Did I miss the memo that the New World Order is in charge now?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I think folks do think more of cards they have, and less of cards they don't have. But the Ty Cobb w/ Ty Cobb back has an additional factor... seems to me they really aren't T206s, but folks that own them want them to be, many of those owners bought the card with the expectation that it was in the white border set. So I well understand what Barry was thinking.<br /><br />As for the Pirate cards, I'd have liked to see them auctioned in 2 or 3 bunches, not one lot nor individually. I think 2 or 3 bunches maximizes the sale price. A few guys wanting a type card could band together easier... A deep pocketed bidder could still tackle the lots, he'd only have to win 2 or 3 to clean the table.<br /><br />We'd all be hurting if there'd only been flat-topped houses at the turn of the century, no attic for Grandpa to stash his cards. The attic idea reminds me of the bourbon warehouses here in Kentucky... the barrels have to set in there for a few years before the product is ready. Makers Mark moves their barrels around, up and down, toward the inside and back to the outer walls, so their product gets, in their estimation, a better aging process. Maybe I should buy some reprints and flour paste them to some whiskey barrels, then "harvest" them in a few years...

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I would guess close to $750K. If not, it's only because anything over $250K is ridiculously-high and even if the lot contained 1,000 of them, it wouldn't go much higher.<br /> <br />The last couple (and only recent) examples (in "A" condition) have sold between $6K-$10K. Even using the lower figure, that equates to about $600K.<br /> <br />This is why IMO, it's foolish to sell them as one huge lot. Someone told me they should auciton them off both as a lot and individually and the highest net should dictate which format wins. I think that makes a lot of sense.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I believe Steve Verkman recently sold a trimmed (but otherwise nice) one for about $9500.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>It's also very possible that PSA misinterpreted the unique size of the Pirates and incorrectly graded it as trimmed.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think the days of $9500 for a trimmed one in a Clean Sweep Auction are over considering the recent influx of these 90 or so examples, right?

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Not if they're sold as one lot. That's the same as having no influx of new examples in the marketplace.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No, I'm referring to the price of the individuals if they're broken out after the auction.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>In that case, then most likely- though you probably won't find any for a bargain. But don't the people who drop $600K on lots usually keep them as a set (or near set)?

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>All 83 lots are on the Mastro Website. They estimate the value at $300,000 to $400,000 for the Pirates with an opening bid of $150,000. Many of their estimates look conservative and a few seem accurate.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Good call. What's next? Credit and asset checks?