T213-T216 Louisiana Issue Populations?

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Would love to receive any and all population estimates from the T213-T216. Prefarably, conjecture of how many of each card remain, how many may have been printed, and if there are any confirmed shortprints within these sets? What do you think of these rough guesstimates I totally came up with off the top of my head?<br /><br />1911 T211: 20-30 of each card<br />1910 T213-1: 50-100 of each card<br />1914 T213-2: 150-200 of each card<br />1919 T213-3: 50-100 of each card<br />1915 T214: 2-5 of each card<br />1910-1913 T215: 20-40 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216: 10-30 of each card<br /><br />Am I totally out of the loop here? It also appears as if these issues are still relatively affordable in comparison to their rarity. Do you think the prices will catch up?<br /><br />James

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Hi James -<br />I can tell you for sure, your estimate of 2-5 cards of each player in the T214 Victory issue is high.<br />Most player cards known from this set are much lower, with many only 1 of 1. I just sold a group of (4) in REA, all being 1 of 1 except for maybe one of them. <br />I honestly think T214's are extremely undervalued when compared to similiar rarities in the hobby.<br />My group of (4) in REA was had for $5k. Name me another set as rare as these where you can get a group of (4), mostly 1 of 1's for $5K. I was amazed and quite frankly disappointed in the outcome of the final sell price. Oh well, you learn to take the bad with the good in this crazy hobby, huh??<br /><p>Tony

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>$1250 per card was an absolute steal, especially with the SGC 30 Murray. I'm sorry it didn't work out the best for you. I'm sure you're correct in that there are probably some sole survivors out there. If somebody out there has one of those cards for sale, let me know <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />James

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Posted By: <b>Andy Cook</b><p>There are significant variations in the number of available cards for T213-2. Some cards are very easy and others are very difficult, but I think I can explain the variance. I'm putting together some research on the whos and whys for this set over the next month or two.<br /><br />Andy

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Andy---<br /><br />Old Cardboard article??<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>I cant imagine the t213-3 is that many. Several cards have zero graded by SGC, so to think there are 50 - 100 of many of these cards doesnt seem possible. I guess there could be several stored away by collectors, but with the proliferation of tbe internet and so many high profile collections being sold in recent years, i cant imagine there are significant hidden sets out there. I know of two complete sets and a couple that are close, but I feel like the number is much lower.<br /><br /><br />Rob

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>This would be my guess:<br /><br />1910 T213-1: 10-15 of each card<br />1914 T213-2: 50-100 of each card<br />1919 T213-3: 10-15 of each card<br />1915 T214: 0-2 of each card<br />1910-1913 T215: 5-10 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Kotton: 10-20 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Mino: 0-4 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Virginia Extra: 0-2 of each card<br /><br /><br />(revised a little using input from others)<br />

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>I don't know enough to speculate on numbers of surviving cards, but like Richard, I'd say that Red Crosses are slightly tougher than Kottons. <br /><br />And, James, I was the lucky winner of the REA T214 lot. If money were no object, I'd certainly keep them all, but $5,000+BP is a pretty big chunk of change for this armpit collector, so I'll probably make one or two available - not the Murray, though, since that's one of my favorite T card images - once I get them. Stay tuned...

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />I normally don't have SGC 10 cards in my collection, but I'd love a shot at the F. Smith Baltimore Feds card.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />James

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>1911 T211 Red Sun: On average, I would say &lt;10<br />1910 T213-1 Coupon: On average, I would say &lt;25<br />1914 T213-2 Coupon: On average, &lt;25<br />1919 T213-3 Coupon: On average, &lt;25<br />1915 T214 Victory: 1-3 of each card<br />1910-1913 T215-1: 1-3 of each card<br />1910-1913 T215-2: 1-3 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Kotton: &lt;25 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Mino: 1-3 of each card<br />1911-1914 T216 Virginia Extra: 1-3 of each card<br />1916 D329 Weil Baking: 1-5 of each card<br />1916 D303 Mother's Bread: 1-3 of each card<br />1916 F-UNC Tango Eggs: 1-35 of each card<br />1921 D328 Holsum: 1-4 of each card<br />T207 Dist. Louisiana: 1-5 of each card<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Rivera</b><p>Steve-James<br /><br />As you probably know I too collect the Baltimore issues and would love to have a crack at the Smith card.<br />There was also a Victory Bender/Balt. on the BST not long ago. I tried to get that card but it didn't work out.<br /><br />I also have a Kotton and a Mino with a Baltimore player but have never seen Virginia Extra with a Balt. player. Does one exist?

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>I'll keep you guys posted. I was leaning toward keeping the Smith since it looks like the second-nicest card in the bunch, but who knows? I'm something of a St. Louis collector, so maybe I'll let Smith go and keep Groom and/or Crandall. I'll figure it out when the time comes.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>I've always been surprised that T213 doesn't carry much of a premium over T206. I realize that the T206 is widely collected, but with T213 being much rarer and more condition sensitive I would think they would sell for more. They are certainly undervalued imo, along with the Kotton series. Victory, Mino, Virgina, i could see selling for much more seeing as how only a few examples, if that, exist of each card.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>"1916 F-UNC Tango Eggs: 1-35 of each card"<br /><br />no sir~<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>PSA Population Report shows Bescher @ 38 and Jennings at 36?

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>B.C.Daniels,<br /><br />Do you really have a 1916 F-UNC Cobb Tango Eggs? I remember you saying you had one, just play with us right, if so that's kinda funny! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Besides a few examples in the tango set which were found in abundance most are extremely rare while a few are purportedly 1 of 1 examples.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>James,<br /><br />I think you are probably close on the T213s but a litte low on the T211, T214-T216s. We have had a bunch of T211s and T216s going back 20 years in the business. <br /><br />We actually have a major collection of all of these issues, all graded by PSA, in our current auction (www.csauctions.com).<br /><br />Forgive the somewhat shameless plug but a very interesting thread all the same - Steve

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>e-mail me!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian Lindholme</b><p>This is a fantastic thread to me...because I used to live in New Orleans and because I want to know more about these issues....especially the non-Coupon types.<br />I see some pretty slim populations are being proposed as estimates.<br /><br />I wonder how many of these super rares we could come up with in this thread...I'll start with my Tango Eggs card of Meyer(Jacklitsch) and post others as I can locate my scans or re-scan them...Brian L<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1178087323.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1178087274.JPG"> <br /><br />Edited to say sorry for the large back scan, re-size if necessary....

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I once had a complete set of T213-3s from a shoebox find from an elderly guy from Louisiana. I can tell you that there were some cards in the set which I have never seen for sale anywhere. I think some of the cards in that set should be 5-25 existant and I think that is very high. 2 of the cards had never before been previously catalogued or recognized as existing so I think 1-5 of those 2 cards is in line.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>I think type 2s are much more common than 1s or 3s, maybe in part owing to the size of the set. Oddly, 1s are rarely found in nice shape while most 3s that have survived are pretty nice. There are some variations which are near (or some that actually are) impossible. A nice VG or better type 1 is a rare card. 5-10 seems a good estimate on 1s and 3s. 20-25 I would agree with for type 2s.

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Posted By: <b>Leslie Westbrook</b><p>I know this is an old thread, and I posted another thread on this topic earlier today (which looks like it's going to get buried) but I was wondering if anyone knows in what city(ies) in Louisiana (other than New Orleans) these cards were produced. Any other information, i.e. factory names, date of closure, etc. would be great too.

[DeanH3]

I am resurrecting this old thread to get some current opinions on this topic. I have been very intrigued by Coupons recently so I'm curious to see what the current thought is on population counts in regards to these issues. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Leon]

I am resurrecting this old thread to get some current opinions on this topic. I have been very intrigued by Coupons recently so I'm curious to see what the current thought is on population counts in regards to these issues. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I think, as stated, it goes type 2 Coupons as the most often seen, followed by the next two series, which seem to be rather close. Since the 5 yrs passed from the origination of this thread, it seems we see a few more type 1s than 3s, but my guess is both might be close in population. Interesting subject. (and we have much better board s/w than when this thread originated too :))

http://luckeycards.com/pt2133master.jpg

[ullmandds]

I think we may be seeing more type 1's due to their similarities w t206. Additionally there is a seller on ebay who has been selling multiple examples of many players from t213-3 over the last year or two...you just dont see that often...but you never see it with type 1's?

[DixieBaseball]

I think it has been guesstimated in this thread by a few people that there is roughly 5-10 examples of each Type 1. I think that is a fair assumption, but I would actually push that down a tad, to more like 3-9 examples of each Type 1. I have been collecting these for a decade + and have only run across 1-2 examples of several players (Some have never come around), while a few others have popped up maybe, 2-3 times. The last time I looked at the pop reports for SGC/PSA, I think I took an average of each player and the net average came out to around 3.5 examples graded of each player. (I need to consult my notes further to be sure...) The Type 1's meet my definition of rare. I don't collect the Type 3's with the same passion, but I have tracked them as well for about the same time period and I think they are in lock step with Type 1's from what I can see. As far as condition, it is apparent by holding a type 3 and type 1 that the Type 3's are thicker and have sustained better condition over the century. The Type 1's are as thin as a piece of paper. Amazing they have held up at all over the years.

[DeanH3]

What about type 2's? Any thoughts on what their population might be? 50-100 still sound right? More maybe? Thanks again for the input.

[Leon]

What about type 2's? Any thoughts on what their population might be? 50-100 still sound right? More maybe? Thanks again for the input.

My opinion, for what it's worth, would be the lower end of your two numbers but still very much in the ballpark.

http://luckeycards.com/pt2132crawfordanddonlin2.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Dean - My guess on Type 2's would be 20-40. Even lower for certain variations. Can be a pretty scarce type depending on player/variation.

[DeanH3]

Thanks Jeremy, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge about this set. And thanks to Leon as well. Should have mention you too.

[tbob]

Back in the 80's when the Southern Find was made, there were about 10-15 of most of the T213-2s, including HOFers, but only 1-2 of each of the cards of the T213-3s. I was able to put together a complete set -1 of the T213-3s with only a handful of duplicates. Of that set I would estimate there were 15% of the overprinted back variations. I remember having 2 Cobb batting overprints, 2 McGraw portrait overprints, 2 Doyle portraitt overprints and singles of the rest of them. I do not remember any T213-1s in the Find. All cards are gone now and in the hobby. I sold the T213-3 set to Bill Mastro and also a nearly complete T213-2 set to him. The T213-3s were all vg to exmt. A beautiflu group....

[DixieBaseball]

Back in the 80's when the Southern Find was made, there were about 10-15 of most of the T213-2s, including HOFers, but only 1-2 of each of the cards of the T213-3s. I was able to put together a complete set -1 of the T213-3s with only a handful of duplicates. Of that set I would estimate there were 15% of the overprinted back variations. I remember having 2 Cobb batting overprints, 2 McGraw portrait overprints, 2 Doyle portraitt overprints and singles of the rest of them. I do not remember any T213-1s in the Find. All cards are gone now and in the hobby. I sold the T213-3 set to Bill Mastro and also a nearly complete T213-2 set to him. The T213-3s were all vg to exmt. A beautiflu group....


- Happy Holidays Bob ! Does Mastro still own this set of T213-3's to the best of your knowledge ?

[RCMcKenzie]

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I can verify 4 Art Fletcher t213-1 Coupon cards. Here are 3 (2 raw and an sgc a) and I bought the SGC 30 on ebay because I was the underbidder on yesterday's Mathewson, (trying to upgrade)... I don't see any t213-1 Fletchers on the PSA pop report. And there are 2 listed on the SGC pop report.

[ullmandds]

In addition to bobs find...the louisiana find contained about a dozed type 2's...no 1's or 3's.