Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI [Archive]

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07-09-2007, 07:12 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAccording to the NY Daily News (no online link, sorry), the FBI is investigating Mastro for shill bidding in its auctions. Doug Allen is quoted as saying that they have not yet been contacted by the FBI. The allegations, in part, are that Mastro allows owners of lots to bid on their own items.

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07-09-2007, 07:41 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellVery interesting--thanks for the info Jeff.

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07-09-2007, 07:48 AM

Posted By: P SpaethGee that makes me feel good, that with all the bad stuff going on in the world the FBI is expending scarce resources looking into shill bidding in Mastro.

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07-09-2007, 07:51 AM

Posted By: leonDepending on what is being done it's either bad or doesn't matter. That's quite a vague statement. We know some auction houses allow bidders to bid on their own stuff....as has been talked about before. They just have to pay the fees if they win. Did anyone hear that people think the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed?

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07-09-2007, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonI have posted the Daily News article on my website. www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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07-09-2007, 08:03 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff- was there any mention of the FBI looking into the designer packing tape?

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07-09-2007, 08:05 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanNo, Barry, but at least we know how they can afford such expensive tape! And unfortunately, corporate fraud is still something the FBI investigates. Thank goodness for that.

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07-09-2007, 08:10 AM

Posted By: peter chaoThis is probably the same FBI dept. that's investigating Barry Bonds steroid use. Mastro doesn't have to worry about anything happening soon. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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07-09-2007, 08:17 AM

Posted By: dennisthe fbi has plenty of money in their budget to investigate crime at various levels. i guess cheating people out of money is not a crime?

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07-09-2007, 08:19 AM

Posted By: leonPlease don't tell me that is what we are talking about here(the article I just looked at). That was discussed months ago because some knucklehead spent other's money in Mastro Auctions and supposedly got ran up. Very old news....and it's by our favorite reporter...O'keefe.....this is truly earth shattering stuff. Please tell me there is something else, Jeff? yawn.... ps...btw, I am not saying it's ok to run max bids up or shill...it's not and anyone that does it should be punished...

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07-09-2007, 08:24 AM

Posted By: joeNot sure about this story. I know I tested this out a few auctions ago. I tried to bid on one of my items in a Mastro auction and the online site would not let me bid. Joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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07-09-2007, 08:25 AM

Posted By: David DavisHas anyone ever tried to bid on one of their consigned items through the online bidding system? I guess this questions also goes for other auction houses.

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07-09-2007, 08:30 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, it's not a yawn if the FBI is currently investigating Mastro. I assure you that Doug Allen and Mastro's lawyers don't consider a pending FBI investigation to be a yawn. Perhaps they'd like their customers to think so, but surely they do not.

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07-09-2007, 08:35 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIn virtually all online auctions, including my own, the auction house gives the names of all the consignors and the lots he consigned to the web designer. He plugs those names into each lot and if the consignor tries to bid, he gets a message that he is not eligible to do so. That's a simple mechanism built into any auction software.

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07-09-2007, 08:36 AM

Posted By: JosephOne thing is for sure, this proves that Mastro has reached the big leagues in terms of the auction business, for we know that, generally, the FBI goes after the biggest fish in the pond. And while shilling is commonplace at even the finest establishments, IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PROVE with seized phone and computer records.

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07-09-2007, 08:36 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo Barry, do you think when Mastro was faced with the fork in the road in choosing software to prevent consignors from bidding on their own auctions or fancy Mastro-stamped packing tape, they chose the latter?

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07-09-2007, 08:46 AM

Posted By: leonI am not making light of the "allegations". This has been hashed out a long time ago. Jeff- if someone alleges something it's not a fact, correct? Noe was sentenced almost a year ago. If something was turned up about Mastro, in a legal, negative, manner we would have heard about it. God knows there are enough on this board who would bring it up (which is fine)...Like I say this is old news....why are we still talking about it?...As far as I know nothing has been proven. I allege a lot of crap....so what? I heard the PSA 8 Wagner might be trimmed and those two hero's with the fake Wagner are still trying to play the race card.... <a href="http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061120/BREAKINGNEWS/61120015" target="_new">http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061120/BREAKINGNEWS/61120015</a>

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07-09-2007, 08:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateLeon- you seem strangely protective when all this is is another thread about something newsworthy relating to the hobby. Maybe it's something, maybe it's nothing...but it's fair game to bring it up for discussion. Jeff- that's a tough question (what was the question again?). Something about designer tape.

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07-09-2007, 09:06 AM

Posted By: leonWe can talk about anything related to the board focus..and this certainly is. My question is why is this being brought up again after nothing was proven the first time? Are there folks with an axe to grind? Nah, couldn't be that. We can talk all we want to about stuff that happened a long time ago and was never proven. You seem to be missing my point. Not sure why?

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07-09-2007, 09:08 AM

Posted By: jay behrensBarry, this is exactly why many people question Leon's objectivity and the other board was started. Mastro is major advertiser here and he poo-poos every negative thing brought about Mastro. It doesn't look good when he keeps claiming that the ad moeny has no impact and he acts this way. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 09:12 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI didn't read the article and the first I am hearing of it is from Jeff's post. Old business or new, Jeff cited that the article is in today's paper. If it's old news, and much ado about nothing, it will go away. If on the other hand O'Keeffe does have an axe to grind with Mastro, then that's worth discussing, too. He is far from a saint, and if he is just stirring trouble then he'll get his comeuppance. I just wouldn't summarily dismiss any article until we learn more about it.

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07-09-2007, 09:14 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, first off, the fact that the FBI is continuing their investigation of Mastro does not for a second suggest that "nothing has come to light." It suggests that they do not yet believe that there is "nothing" to the allegations. Yet. As a defense lawyer, I agree that the mere investigation of Mastro means nothing. As someone who buys Mastro cards, however, it scares the bejesus out of me.

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07-09-2007, 09:27 AM

Posted By: P SpaethIf people don't trust mastro why do they keep bidding in his auctions?

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07-09-2007, 09:28 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSame reason Willie Sutton robbed banks: that's where the cards are.

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07-09-2007, 09:29 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThey have good stuff. In this hobby, stuff trumps everything else.

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07-09-2007, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI'm surprised that this link didn't get more play in this chatroom. <a href="http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8654" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8654</a> It's not so much that it's about a game used item as it is who the perpetrators are in this case. How much can we trust Mastro with stuff like this going on?

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07-09-2007, 09:30 AM

Posted By: P SpaethThere are many sources of cards. That answer does not impress me. If you really think he is running you up, or altering cards in ways that are unacceptable to you, or his fees are excessive, the answer is simple: don't bid.

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07-09-2007, 09:34 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJay, That was my first thought as soon as I saw Leon's comment--there he goes again sticking up for an advertiser. Jim

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07-09-2007, 09:38 AM

Posted By: leonIt's not in "today's" paper. That is a very old article. Find a yr old paper and start reading it and have fun. Jeff- show me something within the last 2 months that says the investigation is ongoing or prove it. Period. All I have seen is a lame old article by someone we know has an axe to grind. Show me something new....or prove it's ongoing. Then you will have something. Jay B- Mastro is one advertiser out of about 10-12...I wouldn't call them a major advertiser. I very well might speak with Doug about NOT advertising anymore so there is no perception of my protecting them. They are a good company with good people. I hate to see negative comments about folks I like, made unjustly. Show me where I have ever protected them? Same old story. You can say anything you want to per the forum rules..... You have made so many negative comments about myself and Mastro that I really should harbor ill feelings about you...but I don't. I think you mean well but some of your statements hold no merit... thanks leon

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07-09-2007, 09:42 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaLeon, have you read that link that I just posted? Something funny is going on at Mastro for sure.

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07-09-2007, 09:44 AM

Posted By: leonI have read it...I don't like what I see either...but I also don't know the whole story. I am not into memorabilia at all. Could a face mask have a different cage thingy up front and still be valuable? I would think anything different than original has to be noted....and would affect the price. What was the final outcome of that story?

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07-09-2007, 09:44 AM

Posted By: jay behrensIf there were no advertising on the board, I could care less what your opinion about Mastro might be. The fact of the matter is, every time something negative is sad about Mastro, you immediately jump to their defense. This does not look good in any way, shape or form. As long as you continue to accept ads, you will be open to criticism for posts you make in defense of advertisers, no matter how correct the post may be, and your motives suspect. I'm pretty sure you knew that going in, but there are times like this when you are better off just not saying anything at all. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 09:47 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensThe responses to this are just amazing from Peter and Leon. Peter you can't be serious about your original response. Do you enjoy being ripped off or have money taken from you? Mastro is a major auction house not your local auctioneer. If you enjoy getting ripped off just send me $100 a month and I will send you a tootsie roll in return. YOur statement is just amazing remind me never to have dealings with you in the future. As far as Leon, you are digging yourself a bigger hole that you started when the advertising started, why can't you just let the thread transpire instead of making the comments that you have you have in the thread with no other knowledge than what Jeff has has brought up an article printed today in a newspaper. Lee

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07-09-2007, 09:48 AM

Posted By: leonYou are probably correct but I can't stand it when friends are maligned unfairly. I can't defend a hypothetical or a perception either. I can only defend the facts. The fact is I have never protected an advertiser in any way shape or form. Show me otherwise. Thanks again for you participation....

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07-09-2007, 09:49 AM

Posted By: P SpaethYeah Lee actually I am serious. If I don't like a product, I don't buy it. These are freaking baseball cards, not necessities. If you are so convinced Mastro is ripping you off, or altering cards, or whatever, do what Lenin said and vote with your feet. EDITED TO ADD That doesn't mean I condone shilling, in case you can't appreciate the difference. My point is just that I think it is ridiculous for people who don't trust Mastro to keep throwing money at him and then bitching about it.

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07-09-2007, 09:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJay and Jim- I do not believe that Leon sticks up for advertisers. He may support a friend, as I or anyone else would do. But he's made it very clear that advertisers on the board are subject to the same scrutiny as anyone else, and I know he means that sincerely. And my comment made no reference to his supporting an advertiser; I was just curious why he responded the way he did.

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07-09-2007, 09:50 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, I'm surprised at you. There has got to be a better answer than just not to bid. Somewhere down there there has to be an obligation to expose what is being done for the good of the hobby. Jim

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07-09-2007, 09:51 AM

Posted By: leonShow me what newspaper it was printed in today?

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07-09-2007, 09:55 AM

Posted By: P SpaethJim: To clarify, I am not condoning fraud. You know me better than that. My point is that if you genuinely believe someone is dishonest, why deal with them?

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07-09-2007, 09:59 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensPeter, if that is your stance you need to change your original response to the thread. I fully agree about your statement that if you feel there are wrong at Mastro not to bid or consign, but to be quite about them does not solve the overall situation at hand with Mastro. Does this mean I won't get my $100 a month for the tootsie rolls? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Leon, Whether the news is new or old should it just be swept under the rug if there is an on going investigation? I am responding more to your and Peter's responses than to the theme of the Thread (semi-hijack). Lee

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07-09-2007, 10:00 AM

Posted By: jay behrensThat's all fine and good to stand up for a friend, but when that friend becomes an advertiser, they are no longer a friend in the eyes of the board. They are an advertiser. Without the ads, he is standing up for a friend/business he likes. With the ads, he is defending an advertiser and you can't do that if you are claiming to not let advertisers influence you. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 10:02 AM

Posted By: leonJust admit you made a mistake and move on....If there is an ongoing investigation I certainly want to know about it. So far it's an allegation that there is one ongoing.....Can anyone prove it? Even if there is an ongoing investigation so what? My guess is that a lot of things get investigated. "Guilty" is really what I want to know about....

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07-09-2007, 10:04 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldFirst - I don't take any sides. I think I'm just answering a question asked by Leon that maybe wasn't clear. This was posted in today, Sunday July 8th's, NY Daily News. If you look at the article posted by Richard on his website, you will see the date stamp of the newspaper on the right hand side, all the way down at the bottom.

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07-09-2007, 10:07 AM

Posted By: leonI wouldn't necessarily say the way you think is the way the board thinks. Some do some don't....Mastro folks are friends and they are advertisers. Big deal...again, show me where I have ever protected them? I will continue to stick up for friends whether they are advertisers or not. If it's shown they did something wrong then I will readily admit that too. So far it's a lot of hot air.....show me some proof Jay.....c'mon ....Or are you going to keep going back to perception?...which of course I can't disprove....

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07-09-2007, 10:11 AM

Posted By: J LevineI wonder (only speculation) if the article's timing has anything to do with a certain someone's book coming out recently and looking for a little publicity. Joshua

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07-09-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasSomeone please provide a link to the story from the NYDAILY website? I cannot find the story. Is this story a year old? The year is left off in the article provided and nothing recent is mentioned in the article? Charlie

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07-09-2007, 10:14 AM

Posted By: P SpaethAs the great line from Ralph McTell's song Streets of London goes, Yesterday's paper telling yesterday's news.

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07-09-2007, 10:15 AM

Posted By: leonI just went to the website and don't see the article. Can you show me where it is on their website? I looked and looked too...but maybe I missed it. It certainly didn't jump out at me... <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/index.html" target="_new">http://www.nydailynews.com/news/index.html</a>

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07-09-2007, 10:17 AM

Posted By: jay behrenscome on Leon, you are smarter than that. All have to do is give the perception that you are protecting an advertiser and your credibility is hurt. You coming on here and trying to downplay everything negative about Mastro speaks volumes. You may think that you are defending a friend, but as long as the Mastro banner continues to fly here, you are defending an advertiser. There is no denying that. If you want to defend Mastro here, then maybe your idea is best and that you ask them not advertise anymore. That way, you can defend them to your heart's content and no one can claim you are defending or downplaying an issue about Mastro because they advertise here. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 10:20 AM

Posted By: Jon CanfieldLeon and others - I don't think the article is available in online form (sort of like the Wagner photo article a few weeks back). I can't find it on the website, either. You have to buy the paper. Again, for the record, I'm taking no sides here...

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07-09-2007, 10:21 AM

Posted By: Jim DaleLooking at the article provided above it would appear a disgruntled buyer has gotten the governments attention. I wonder how much the government (FBI) really wants to look into shill bidding? My guess is they have more important things to do, but the one client might have some pull with someone.

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07-09-2007, 10:21 AM

Posted By: scott fandangoLeon..."Depending on what is being done it's either bad or doesn't matter. That's quite a vague statement. We know some auction houses allow bidders to bid on their own stuff....as has been talked about before. They just have to pay the fees if they win. Did anyone hear that people think the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed?" when i first read that, i thought he was writing it tounge-in-cheek i was thinking......with fireworks exploding overhead, Leon says "Move along please, there is nothing to see here..."

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07-09-2007, 10:25 AM

Posted By: leonJon- ok maybe it's a secret article. It can't be seen unless you buy the hardcopy. No one has seen the hardcopy or shown a real scan of it in today's paper. Again, I guess it's a secret. Jay- I will continue to run this board the best way I know how. Thanks for letting me know what I should do though. I will keep it in mind....

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07-09-2007, 10:27 AM

Posted By: Jim DaleWell if nothing else you have to admit there are some neat political ramifications \ implications here. The last paragraph notes that one of the Mastro brothers was Rudi Guilianis' deputy mayoy....does Rudi collect cards....I smell a scandal <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I mean come on this is closer to a scandal then Libby's recollection?

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07-09-2007, 10:27 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasDoes anybody really think that for $300 a month, Leon wants to be the Behren's constant verbal pin cushion? I think Leon would pay the advertisers $300 a month to make them boys go away! Charlie Edited to add: This constant harangue of Leon and decisions he made last year is getting very tired.

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07-09-2007, 10:29 AM

Posted By: jay behrensNice of you to crawl out from under your slimy rock, Charlie. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 10:32 AM

Posted By: ScottIngoldYour not serious about that Leon. Are you ?

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07-09-2007, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJay, Ouch! Are you going to be attending the N54 dinner this year? Charlie Edited to Add: If so, I am looking forward to seeing you there!

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07-09-2007, 10:39 AM

Posted By: leonI posted about 20 times...what are you referring too? Most likely I am serious about whatever I said....unless of course it was tongue in cheek...

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07-09-2007, 10:40 AM

Posted By: Jim DaleLeon there was a hard scan of the article posted above on the guys web site: www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm The date said July 8.

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07-09-2007, 10:41 AM

Posted By: jay behrenssadly, my limited budget and lack of vacation time will keep me from being there. I won't be able to make it next year either since I will have to travel to Italy to attend my son's graduation. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 10:43 AM

Posted By: leonSorry, until I see it in printed form somewhere else I won't believe it's current news. As a matter of fact I am about 95% sure it's old news. NO ONE has shown a full date of the article yet or where it's printed today. I am very skeptical but if shown it is in fact printed somewhere as of July 8,2007, and is an ongoing investigation, I will come back and say I was incorrect. SO far I am not...and NO ONE has proven it. thanks again

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07-09-2007, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Steve <a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=595473&STARTPAGE=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=595473&STARTPAGE=1</a> leon you can see the article here: Steve

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07-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Joe D.What is the date of the NY Daily News article you are referring to? It seems Leon is suggesting this is old news... and I am not sure if you directly countered that point. Barry... "In virtually all online auctions, including my own, the auction house gives the names of all the consignors and the lots he consigned to the web designer. He plugs those names into each lot and if the consignor tries to bid, he gets a message that he is not eligible to do so. That's a simple mechanism built into any auction software." If someone is going to shill - why would they use their own name? I mean if it is against policy or auction rules to shill... I would think a shiller would be smart enough to use a name other than their own. Point being - the simple mechanism you mention above seems it would do very little to prevent shilling. Shilling can happen in any auction, and the auction house is in a difficult position (and maybe impossible in some cases). In the end though - as a bidder - you have to at least hope that the auction house itself is not involved in the shill practice. Without that confidence, it is hard to bid on items in that auction. Thats why I listen to the guidance/opinions from people within my circle of collector-friends (Net54, NYC Dinner people and such) and I stick to names that have earned my trust... like Lew Lipset, Barry Sloate, REA and some others.

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07-09-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: jay behrensLeon, look again at Richard's side and look at the right side of the article, you will see the date there. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, I thought made it clear in my initial post that the article is from TODAY's paper. Not every article in the 100 page News makes it to the online edition. Since the Daily News is not Pravda, you'd find that that does not suggest it is a "secret" article. Do you actually think I'd dredge up old news just to bash Mastro? I think Mastro is full of it and greedy as the day is long but I would hardly dredge up old news just to bash it. Are you kidding me? Very simple solution to this question. Let Doug Allen or Randy Mastro come out here and proclaim that they have ZERO knowledge that the FBI is currrently investigating Mastro. [Insert sounds of crickets chirping here]

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07-09-2007, 10:57 AM

Posted By: leonThat article is a year old. Jay or anyone- do you see a year date anywhere? Nothing like rehashing old news that wasn't ever proven...I still say...SHOW ME THE PROOF IT'S CURRENT......and then I will say ok...until then there is nothing, imo..... check this out and the year date stamp.... <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/memorabilia/" target="_new">http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/memorabilia/</a>

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07-09-2007, 10:59 AM

Posted By: leonHow do you know it's from today's paper?

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07-09-2007, 11:01 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBECAUSE I HAVE IT DELIVERED TO MY APT AND I LIVE IN NYC.

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07-09-2007, 11:01 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasLeon, Last year, July 8th was a Saturday. Charlie

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07-09-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: jay behrensBoy, if this doesn't reek of protecting an advertiser, I have no clue what does. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 11:04 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanLooks like the investigation is heating up, with multiple FBI interviews of people in the chain of events over recent weeks, which is what the thrust of the article was. The rehash was background for the readers who hadn't been following the story to date; not unusual for journalistic coverage of an ongoing story. I don't see any axe-grinding there.

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07-09-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJay, Is it possible that Leon is just not excited to believe that a major part of the hobby is invovled in a serious crime? If you love the hobby or make money in the business, this is not good news if they are convicted of a crime. Charlie

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07-09-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: leonGood enough...it's been going on for a year and nothing has been found...SO now the same old thing has been printed again....If something has been proven please let us know. You really seem like you have it out for Mastro but there are only allegations. Too bad there isn't something with some meat on it....You would really go to town....and if there is proven to be something with meat on it...I will be the first to say...shame on them...so far...nadda... Jay- I am about done responding to you as there isn't anything else to say. You don't know the difference between protecting and defending. I will defend what I feel is right. I won't protect anyone....sheesh...

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07-09-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJoe- I know what you are saying, and a consignor can always ask a friend to bid for him. Nothing I can do about that. It's indefensible. I won't go there, even if I suspect something, because if I am wrong I will lose a customer for nothing. There is only so much you can really do.

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07-09-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, would it bother you if a major part of the industry was involved in shill bidding or the altering of cards in order to get higher PSA grades upon re-submission?

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07-09-2007, 11:09 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, This is not any old auction house they are investigating, this is the top of the line, they are questioning the integrity of Mastro Auctions. Peter

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07-09-2007, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJeff, Yes. I have spent alot of money in Mastro's auctions. If I was getting run up, I would hire you to get some money back. I am still getting checks from the Market Makers from the money they stole from me back in the old Hedge Fund days. Charlie Edited to add a "t" in Mastro's.

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07-09-2007, 11:11 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, if I had it personally out for Mastro I wouldn't win cards in each and every auction they conduct. Can't I be critical of an auction house that I do business with? If I only bid in auctions that I didn't believe were at all crooked, I'd be stuck buying all of Hal's cards in Barry's auctions. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-09-2007, 11:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat's wrong with that? Actually, at this point you are too late. They are all gone!

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07-09-2007, 11:14 AM

Posted By: jay behrensCharlie, that may well be true, but Leon, as a person that takes money from advertisers, needs to understand that when comes out and continually tries to downplay or dismiss everything bad that comes up about one of his advertisers, he opens himself up to criticism and loss of credibility, especially since he claims that the money he takes from advertisers doesn't influence his objectivity. Leon is the one that mentioned that he has thought about asking Mastro not to advertise any more. Given that Leon has close personal ties to them and finds it necessary to defend them all the time, it's probably the best thing to do so that he can claim to defend a friend rather than an advertiser. His only other real option if you continues to take their money is to remain quiet so as not to give anyone the perception that he is defending an advertiser. Leon will do what he wants to do. That's been clear since the day he took over the board. Most of the sheep here go along with it. I and other won't. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 11:15 AM

Posted By: leonFirst of all I started a new thread with this post so I deleted it quickly....I messed up operationally..... Adam-If it's heating up again so be it. Hopefully the investigation will prove more currently than it has in the last year, with respect to Mastro. Can anyone show me where anything has been proven that they did wrong? I am not saying they did or didn't.....I don't know. Jeff- Of course you can be critical of Mastro...but I would hope you would have substantiated facts and not allegations to go on.....Also, I am sure you know the difference in defending and protecting....I am defending them as I have not seen a shred of evidence so far that makes me believe otherwise....I won't protect them though, as you know....

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07-09-2007, 11:16 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasHonest auto-bid should be mandatory. Why do auctioneers need to see secret auto-bids? Charlie Edited to Add: I have had many auto-bids in Mastro's auctions that were not close to being maxed out. I personally have no reason to believe that I was ever run up. In fact, I almost always know who the underbidder is.

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07-09-2007, 11:17 AM

Posted By: peter chaoThis is a bonafide class action here, guys. The FBI needs to establish the time frame of the auctions and the lots that were shilled. In other words are we talking about one lot or all the lots. Then anybody that won one of the auctions would be part of the class. If any of you have any questions on how a class auction would proceed, feel free to contact me. I've done a few in my time. Believe it or not, you are not going to believe the most expensive part of a class action. You need to notify members of the class. The larger the class the more money you spend on postage. Attorney fees normally come from proceeds of the award. The other aspect of this matter that is interesting, is this is a clear case of fraud. The Court can and will impose punitive damages. This type of lawsuit could bankrupt Mastro's. Peter

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07-09-2007, 11:18 AM

Posted By: DanThe funny thing is, you all crucified Steve Verkman and stated how "screwed up" his auctions are and that you would never bid on his items due to a problem he had with one item (the now famous Ruth Calendar). Instead, we are talking about one of the major auction houses allowing SHILLING. There are several of you that spend a lot of time hunting down shillers on Ebay, yet no one wants to hold Mastro to the fire on this one. If there is any validity to this and other accusations, then this is straight up BS in my opinion.

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07-09-2007, 11:20 AM

Posted By: DRAn auction house Code of Ethics disclure policy publicly confirmed in writing!

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07-09-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: P SpaethFunny typo there Pete C.

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07-09-2007, 11:23 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, sadly the FBI does not keep me in the loop in their investigations. If only... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-09-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: jay behrensProtecting...defending...it's all semantics. When you get right down to it, it's still the same thing and makes you look bad because claiming the ad money doesn't influence you. Even though I don't doubt that your personal relationship with Mastro is the overriding factor, the fact that you do take money from them makes you look bad in this situation. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Any time you chime in in defense of an advertiser, friend or not, you are defending/protecting them, plain and simple. Trying to justify it as something else just makes you look bad. You can't run a money making forum, claim to be unbiased/uninfluenced by the money and then defend/protect your advertisers. It's the reality of your situation whether you like it or not and you will get heat when you don't live up to your claim. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Bobby BinderIn regards to this "Honest Bid" in reality how do the bidders know or not whether the auction house can see what they have bid. There is no way that it can be proven and just because it says "Honest Bid" they are suppose to believe it. I think it is a crook..

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07-09-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBobby -- bingo! Until the auction industry has some sort of oversight, the crooks will continue to get away with all sorts of fraud. Sad but true.

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07-09-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: Frank EvanovLet's set some things straight. Here is the article from today's NY Daily News. It is new...it is real. It indicates that the company trying to recover the State of Ohio's lost funds has deferred their investigation to the FBI. The issues of consignor's bidding on their own lots and Mastro shill bidding are under scrutiny. "No comment" has been the FBI's and Mastro's response. I am sure we will hear more. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1183915593.JPG"> Frank

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07-09-2007, 11:31 AM

Posted By: jay behrensFrank, you are going to get in trouble with Leon, because the way the scan is cropped, it could be a July 6, 2001 article <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSince Doug has no problem talking to the media about the allegations I'm sure he won't have a problem coming out here and telling us that he has ZERO knowledge that the FBI is investigating these shilling allegations. I'll be sitting here patiently, hands folded, waiting for Doug's comment.

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07-09-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: leonYou are absolutely correct. It looks as though the investigation continues, according to Jeff, who read it in the paper (I wonder if O'keefe wrote the current article too?). If Mastro, or anyone, shill bids then they should be held accountable. So far it's a lot of people talking about allegations...makes for interesting conversation....So far I feel confident .....no proof...nadda...just a year old investigation...

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07-09-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, how do you know that there is no proof for these allegations? Because no one has been arrested yet?

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07-09-2007, 11:35 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the whole Honest-Auction bid thing is overrated, and here's why: an auction is only as honest as the people running it. With my new software, as well as with my previous phone auctions, I have had access to every ceiling bid. Yet bidders still leave them liberally. And I have had lots go for half the max bids. Why? Because I take full responsibility for what goes on in my auctions. Business is about people, not about computers. Either you trust someone or you don't. And people either trust me, or anyone else, or they move on. It's that simple.

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07-09-2007, 11:36 AM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerJay, what is your infatuation with Leon? You've been dogging him for years, including sinking to the lowest levels of human decency in your posts. (MGW). Is it jealousy? Why are you so negative all the time? There is no reward for it. Why do you hang out here dogging Leon, and Charlie, instead of trying to improve your own board? (Congratulations on the 13 total posts on your board yesterday, by the way). I can't help but to feel sorry for you man, How can anybody be that negative for so long? I hope you find happiness some day.

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07-09-2007, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasBarry, Well said. And thank you, I received my lot in record time. Charlie

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07-09-2007, 11:38 AM

Posted By: leonNice to see the article was written by someone so impartial? Like I say, a year old reprinted article today, about a year old investigation. Show me the meat baby !!!!

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07-09-2007, 11:39 AM

Posted By: barrysloateHey Charlie- that's a first! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> We haven't had good luck getting packages from Brooklyn to Washington, glad we finally got it right.

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07-09-2007, 11:42 AM

Posted By: leonYou are grasping...my lawyer friend. Not only can you not show me where someone has been arrested you CAN'T SHOW ME ANYTHING proving anything was done wrong....For the 100th time I don't know if anything was or wasn't... but neither do you...but please keep arguing (am I really trying to argue with a prominent lawyer?) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> take care...and definitely nothing personal here. I consider you a friend.....

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07-09-2007, 11:47 AM

Posted By: jay behrensLeon has made claims about the way that he would run this board. I've tried to hold him to those claims. He said when he first took over that there would be no advertising on the board. We see what happened with that claim. When started taking money for ads, he claimed that there would be no undue influence or protection of advertisers, yet we see him continually protect/defend Mastro. If I were in Leon's position and acted the way he has, I would expect people to be calling me out for not following thru on my word. The comment about the other board hurt. I think I'll go to my bedroom and cry. At least over there, if see any of the moderators being a defender/protector/apologist for Mastro or any other dealer/auction house you know there is no chance for monetary incentive behind our position since we will NEVER accept advertising. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerWell Jay, I guess I'm just voicing my opinion like you do. I wish you well.

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07-09-2007, 12:04 PM

Posted By: MikeU"The last paragraph notes that one of the Mastro brothers was Rudi Guilianis' deputy mayoy....does Rudi collect cards....I smell a scandal I mean come on this is closer to a scandal then Libby's recollection?" Since Republicans are involved, you can be rest assured that if anything non-Kosher is involved, it is for the good of the country and nothing else. Anyone who believes otherwise hates America.

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07-09-2007, 12:09 PM

Posted By: jay behrensAs long as the rich keep getting richer and the middle class is destroyed, it's all good. sarcasm off Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLeon, I suppose the author of the article hates Mastro so much that he invented the current FBI investigation? I suppose he's so impartial that he allowed Doug Allen the chance to be heard in the article? He's not spinning in the article, Leon; he's just reporting facts -- the fact that Mastro is presently, and still, being investigated by the FBI for fraud. Would you go to a cancer doctor who was being investigated by the FBI for providing sugar pills in place of chemotherapy? Or would you go to him for treatment and shrug off the investigation and say "show me the meat baby!"? Not to suggest that selling cards is the same as cancer, but I'm sure you get my point.

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07-09-2007, 12:19 PM

Posted By: P SpaethYour cancer doctor analogy illustrates my point, if you think foul play is involved, don't bid.

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07-09-2007, 12:20 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI stand corrected, I am correct. Now Leon, the article is posted let people make the decisions for themselves. You and my brother both look like fools beating the same issue to death. I can not believe that you did not trust the people that said the article existed and that they had there own aggenda. You do a nice job with the board but we all have are flaws and beliefs (which not everyone will agree with) and we need to be our own person. By the way the other board is just fine you don't see off topic and quarrels going on over there. There is a group of over protective individuals on this board and that is why all the bickering happens. Barry, thanks for being reasonable in this whole thread. As far as lumping me with my brother, read my posts ( alot fewer) and read his posts you will find that although we agree on some things we don't always agree and I am more rational. All have a great day, Lee disclaimer: If this was posted last year at this date it is just a repeat and sorry for wasting your time.

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07-09-2007, 12:21 PM

Posted By: P SpaethI see no evidence of bias on Leon's part. The man is entitled to his opinion and I don't think it is fair to assume it is the result of bias, particularly where he has criticized other advertisers in the past.

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07-09-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackJeff pays to get the Daily News delivered to his home, and we're supposed to trust his judgment? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-09-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, my point is that I don't know whether or not Mastro is engaged in fraud. How could I at this stage? The point is that the continued investigation of Mastro for fraud does give me (and any rational person) some pause.

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07-09-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDavid, fair point. I have no good defense to that charge.

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07-09-2007, 12:26 PM

Posted By: leonI would be more prone to making a decision based on the findings of the allegations. I guess we can disagree on this issue..I am in business...You know how many times I have been called with allegations of something I did wrong and was responsible for, through actions of employees? Many. You know how many have proven out so far? 0 (knock on wood).. on a side note.....I did have an employee say they fell in one of my restaurant freezers. They got a lawyer, I got a lawyer. I told their quack in the box doctor I would pay until the coming Friday for her treatments. Guess what, miraculously on Friday I had an MD signed release for her to go back to work........again, we just think differently on this. Allegations and investigations are part of business. I am for less legal matters <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....take care

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07-09-2007, 12:26 PM

Posted By: Fred CThe interesting thing (in this article) is that someone said that they provided a name of a consignor that bid on their own item. Is it illegal to bid on your own items? I don't think it's ethical but is it illegal? I've had a consignor tell me he bid on his own items in a major auction. Truth be told it disturbed me and from then on if I knew he was the consignor in an auction I would avoid the items. After that I was a little suspect about that particular auction house (who I will not name). I still bid in that auction houses auctions (not as much as in the past) because they do have good material. But it still bothers me knowing what I know about the consignor bidding on their own stuff. Some may say it shouldn't matter because they have to pay the premium if they win the auction but that's not the point. To me this has everything to do with ethics. If someone wants to sell something for a certain price then JUST SELL THE THING without playing these stupid games. Bottom line is that they could sell it for 15% - 20% less and still get the amount of money they wanted for the item. Even if there were laws about consignors bidding on their own material there are ways to circumvent the system such as having a buddy bid on the material. Same game, different plan, same stupid MFing a$$hole manipulating the system. If any auction house allows this then their ethics should be questioned, but then again there's the buddy system.

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07-09-2007, 12:27 PM

Posted By: peter chaoAs an attorney, I look for the problems the FBI will have in gathering evidence. Somebody should tell the FBI that it will be near impossible for them to make their case. The easy way would be for somebody to squeal. In other words, somebody who works at Mastro will testify that consignors were told they could bid. Without this direct evidence it will be much more slippery. We are talking about obtaining records of past auctions. The problem will be these records may no longer exist. It may be easy to obtain a list of winners of past auctions. However, we are talking about the shills, normally, the people shilling don't win the auctions. How is the FBI going to get a list of those that were second or third in the bidding. Also, you need to link the shills with Mastro. Neither parties have an interest in speaking with the FBI. So where is the beef? Peter

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07-09-2007, 12:29 PM

Posted By: P SpaethJeff, fair enough, but you also in the past have expressed concerns about Doug's acknowledged policies as to what they may do to "prepare" cards and the bottom line was that they weren't going to disclose that. So at some point it seems to me one has to make the tough decision either to stop bidding with someone you don't trust/whose policies you don't like or to bid with your eyes wide open.

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07-09-2007, 12:30 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHow do you know that Jeff doesn't get the Daily News because he likes to do the Jumble?

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07-09-2007, 12:30 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPeter, you see no bias? He takes advertising money from them, has stated the his collection will be consigned to Mastro if he quits or dies, and has a personal relationship with Doug Allen. Nope, no potential for any personal bias there at all. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 12:31 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI remember when a woman tripped over her New York Times, injuring herself. She sued the Times for publishing newspapers that were too big. I always thought the Times should have used that suit in advertising. Though I find it hard to trust a newspaper that doesn't have a comics section.

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07-09-2007, 12:33 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWE CAN'T HELP OUR ADDICTIONS!!!!!!!! That's why these auction houses are getting away with doing this kind of BS. We see a card and we want it. It's that simple. We fear we may never see that card again so we must have it. Jeff blasts away at Mastro (Rightfully so) but he still bids in every auction. I may be wrong, but I thought I read that Leon bid in Verkman's last auction. I even signed up for Leland's auctions after I said I would never do business with them after the Clemente airplane auction - although it was to bid in one of Scott Gaynor's auctions. I suppose if the next Mastro auction has a Nebraska Indians item that I NEED then I will bid on it. WE CAN'T HELP IT!!!!

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07-09-2007, 12:35 PM

Posted By: P SpaethJay, there is a difference between a potential conflict of interest and actual bias. Obviously there are circumstances in life (e.g. being a judge) where one has to avoid even the former, so as not to create an appearance of impropriety. But on a baseball card chatboard I don't worry about such things. Indeed, even if I thought Leon was biased, which I don't, I would just discount what he had to say. I truly don't see why it bothers you so much.

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07-09-2007, 12:36 PM

Posted By: P SpaethDan you nailed it. I think most of us would buy a difficult card we needed/wanted even if someone told us they had trimmed it.

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07-09-2007, 12:38 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDan B is 100 percent correct. Peter C, if you are a practicing criminal attorney who has tried cases against the federal government and has cross-examined FBI agents I will eat my hat. Virtually every single word in your post is incorrect. It is almost uncanny how wrong you are.

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07-09-2007, 12:38 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPeter, why does it bother me? Call it personal integrity, or lack of it. It bothers me when people don't honor their word. I guess it doesn't bother you. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 12:44 PM

Posted By: P SpaethHow did Leon not honor his word? By accepting advertisers in the first place?

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07-09-2007, 12:45 PM

Posted By: peter chaoDoug Allen, are you lurking? Right now is the easy part, prior to the indictment all your doing is holding the client's hand. Heck I would tear the FBI's case apart. I would ask the bidders whether anybody forced them to make their bids. Were they prepared to go higher than their winning bid? I would ask them about the present market value of the items that they won at auction. Peter

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07-09-2007, 12:48 PM

Posted By: Joe D.looks pretty clear... this is current news. thanks for the heads up.

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07-09-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: P SpaethPeter C., you misconstrue the issue. I could place a top all and win the auction, yet pay more than I "should" have because the underbidder was not legitimate. So I don't understand the relevance of what you are saying. In the above example it is irrelevant thatI placed my bid voluntarily or was prepared to go higher.

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07-09-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaPeter C, how do you know what the present market value is for an item if it was shilled everytime it came up for sale? edited to make clear I was talking to Peter C.

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07-09-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPeter, that, among other things that Leon has done. I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJay, Is it possible that you are confusing, Honor, Integrity etc with you personal ideology? I think if you asked every person on the board for their opinion regarding Leon's integrity your opinion might be in the minority. I know you are comfortable with being a contraian but it does not make you correct. Is it possible you are attracted to Leon and this is your way of showing it? Charlie

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07-09-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter C, your 'defense' above is not a defense to a charge of fraud. You'd find that any judge on planet earth would stop that "defense." Are you really a criminal lawyer or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

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07-09-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI dig old, bald guys with glasses <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Besides, I think Leon and Scott B have an exclusive relationship :-p Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 12:58 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJeff, Are you laughing as you type that or does it take a few minutes to kick in! I know I was. Charlie

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07-09-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, I'm not sure that the tears running down my face are ones of laughter or pain.

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07-09-2007, 01:00 PM

Posted By: P SpaethPlanet earth may not be the only forum with jurisdiction over the case.

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07-09-2007, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman"Doug Allen, are you lurking? Right now is the easy part, prior to the indictment all your doing is holding the client's hand." I just can't let this go it is so insipidly wrong. Peter, is this what you think criminal lawyers do with their clients during the investigation phase of a case? Or do you think they do anything they can to convince the prosecutorial body investigating their client that no crime has been committed? Randy Mastro is a good lawyer. Trust me, he is not just holding hands now.

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07-09-2007, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasGuys, They need to start standardizing the curriculum at Law schools around the country? Charlie

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07-09-2007, 01:39 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI'm not a lawyer, but my dad watches Judge Judy and keeps me up to date on her rulings. I consider myself well versed in such important cases as "Defendant borrows plaintiff's boom box, returns it damaged" and "Eleven year old gets sick on classmate, damaging Black Sabbath shirt." I remember the Judge Wapner case where a woman sued a man because he was too cheap on their date. He used coupons and they took the bus.

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07-09-2007, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJudge Judy: If you're the defendent you're going to lose - unless the plaintiff can't keep his/her mouth shut.

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07-09-2007, 01:57 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJim, I am only going to ask you this question once..... did you ever have sexual relations with that woman....Ms. Coulter? Charlie Edited to add: All joking aside, I hope Jim was and is being facetious with his admiration for Ms. Coulter. Her rhetoric is indefensible by any politcal slant. Although, I do agree with Dan Kravitz...there is something kinda hot about her. CB

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07-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Posted By: jay behrenscan you define sex? If you mean did I put that baseball card there, I don't consider that sex. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 03:57 PM

Posted By: David SmithJay, If you DID put a baseball card in there, then it TRULY would be trimmed!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> David

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07-09-2007, 04:17 PM

Posted By: David SmithOn a serious note, I have never bid on or consigned anything with Mastro but their auctions always gave me some pause as far as the write-ups for some of the lots were concerned. I am of the belief that if something is hyped TOO much then something is fishy. The Shakespeare phrase, "Me thinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind. Why does an ultra rare or expensive item have to have sooooo much hype?? If Mastro were selling the PSA 8 Wagner (no comments about whether it is trimmed or not) I am sure it would be a centerfold with two pages of hype. WHY???? Instead of the hype, why not just put a LARGE photo of the card on one page and on the next page just say, "The best there is". If anything else needed to be said, then it could be followed up with a history of ownership and prices paid for the card over the years. If an item is extraordinary, most people reading the catalogue will know it, especially if it is a centerpiece item and/or very high priced. Most everybody knows Babe Ruth, even the average man on the street has probably heard of him. These same people would also know that a bat that he used in a game is valuable. How valuable, they probably wouldn't know. But they would know something about it. A long and drawn out description in a sports auction catalogue with fancy and/or seldom used words is not necessary because the target audience IS NOT the average man on the street. Now if it were a game used Babe Roof bat and the opening bid was high, then a long drawn out description with fancy words MIGHT be necessary. I am not a lawyer but I also use this system when I see defendents (or their attorneys) talking on TV. If they yammer on and on for no reason then I think they are trying to hide something or shift the focus somewhere else. I don't think that if they just come on and say, "I am not guilty" and nothing else. Kind of simple and naieve (sp?) but at least it is a start. David

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07-09-2007, 04:51 PM

Posted By: JimBI have not read all of this thread because, frankly, it bores me. But I have a question: Why can't Leon post his opinion like anybody else on here? If his views are supportive of an advertiser, so be it. Who cares. If he starts deleting controversial posts or deleting views stated against advertisers, then there is a problem. JimB

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07-09-2007, 04:56 PM

Posted By: JimBAnd that article has virtually nothing of substance against Mastro. People have bid on their consigned lots? I garuntee you they have done so in every auction house, including those with Honest Auto-Bid. They just do it via a friend in those cases. If somebody consigns a lot that they think is worth 20k and there is a minute left in the auction and it is still at 5k, if they would rather keep it at that price and are willing to swallow the BP and buy the lot for 5.5k, who could blame them, especially when Mastro starts all bidding at about 5-10% of expected value and does not allow for reserves? JimB

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07-09-2007, 05:01 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackLeon's opinion was fair. He was essentially saying it was old news, and reposting old news once every three months doesn't make it new news.

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07-09-2007, 05:04 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim and David, frankly the only thing new about the article is that the FBI investigation into Mastro for fraud continues to this day. To me, that is news. And I'm not sure that buying back one's own consigned card is considered shill bidding. Shill bidding exists instead where someone else buys a consigned card that has been artificially raised due solely to the consignor's own bids.

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07-09-2007, 05:05 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- how often is a 20K lot languishing at 5K with a minute to go? That seems almost impossible.

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07-09-2007, 05:06 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI actually find quite reassuring..... I appreciate the fact I know where he stands on such issues, and I can judge his opinion exactly like I do everyone else's on this board. With a grain of salt. How do I know what anyone else's stated opinions are affected by, and whether they are 'tainted' by an undisclosed relationship? Seems ridiculous in this instance to only judge Leon in this way... There is no big moral obligation for Leon to either have completely unbiased opinions (impossible to do and still be involved in the hobby), or be bound from expressing them. He doesn't influence what cards I buy or who I deal with any more than anyone else on or off the board - and if people as a whole tend to agree with his stances its because they seem more reasoned - and not because of any relationship to mutton <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. And per this article, it seems to me also that I read near the exact same opinion almost a year ago, and it too talked of 'ongoing investigations'. All I can say is it seems a long time amaking for a serious legal case based on fairly defined measurables..... Daniel Edited to add paragraph 3.

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07-09-2007, 05:19 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback..

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07-09-2007, 05:26 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonJust to clarify: the bottom part of the article (with the full date) and the top headline are cut off due to the size of the newspaper being larger than my scanner. The article was in today's newspaper. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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07-09-2007, 05:26 PM

Posted By: JimBBarry, I was pulling numbers out of my head, but you can imagine the scenario: A consigner decides, at whatever price, that s/he would rather eat the BP and buy the lot back at a certain price that sell it at that price. I am sure there are instances where consigners are not thrilled with prices realized in Mastro auctions, like any others. As buyers we often feel like there are no deals there, but sellers feel differently. JimB

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07-09-2007, 05:30 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, and what if the consignor, whose card worth 20K is at 5K with a minute to go, bids and bids to try to 'buy' it back and then finds that he's still the underbidder at 19K because the top bidder put a ceiling bid in at 20K? And then he lays off the card. And Mastro allows this to occur because they allow consignors to bid on their own auctions. Is that still fair? Of course not. It's fraud.

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07-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Posted By: JoannI think the article is news if for no other reason than it indicates that the FBI investigation into Mastro still has a heartbeat. It seems like a lot of people have serious questions about some of the underpinnings of the hobby (see other thread on the broken grading system). I get the sense that for the next few years a lot of people involved in the hobby will be holding their collective breath waiting for the house of cards to collapse as soon as the first domino falls (gads - I really love mixed metaphors!). The article is a sign that there are forces chipping away at the foundations. To me, that makes it current and relevant. As to Leon, I am with JimB on this one. He has a right to his opinion. I don't know that his opinion on Mastro is based on their advertiser status - I have no reason to think that. Regardless, he can base his opinions on whatever he wants - whether it be friends, advertiser status, or that he has a cousin that once lived on Mastro St somewhere. It doesn't really matter - he can voice his opinion like anyone else here. The line would get crossed of the contents of all posts were regulated based on the interests of the advertisers. I think that's what some feared when the board took ads, and to me it remains the only relevant issue yet today. So far I haven't seen it, and I've been kind of keeping an eye on it. Leon voicing an opinion that favors an advertiser is not the same as his doing something so that the opinions of other also have to favor (or not disfavor) advertisers. Joann

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07-09-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: Joe D.It is my understanding that it is common practice for the consignor of a horse to bid on his horse - openly not secretly. If a consignor is not happy with the price he is getting - he just bids. Everyone there knows he is the consignor. If he wins his horse back, he is out the consignment fee. When you think about it... its basically an auction with a real 'reserve price'.

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07-09-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRegarding Leon's pro-Mastro bias, my (perhaps unwanted) two cents: I happen to think Leon has tremendous integrity. The fact that he deals with this site with all the BS he catches suggests something about his personality. And if you know him at all, you know what a decent guy he is. And I don't think the relatively minor ad dollars he receives from Mastro tilts his opinion in any kind of meaningful manner. I think he is prejudiced towards Mastro because he knows the players involved and he believes in THEIR integrity. That's fair and Leon's belief about someone's integrity (or lack thereof) goes a long way with me. As for Jay's suggestion about Leon's receipt of ad dollars impacting his judgement, Jay is right in the sense that such a relationship at least has the appearance of impropriety. For a rough analogy, if one makes a motion to recuse a judge due to the appearance of prejudice on the judge's part against the moving litigant, often judges will recuse themselves even though they state unequivocally that they can be fair to both sides -- but for the sake of the system working, the appearance of prejudice is enough to warrant recusal. And for the record, I believe wholeheartedly in Jay's integrity as well. There aren't all that many people out here that I would say such a thing about but Jay and Leon are two of them.

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07-09-2007, 06:00 PM

Posted By: Bob CThe fact pattern in the article is thin. Not enough substance there...yet. The bigger story would be Mastro bidding on their own items to create artificial reserves or get high prices. It should be interesting to see how this plays out.

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07-09-2007, 06:11 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think Leon is walking a tightrope, and is not in an enviable position. If he believes in a person, and wants to support him, and by coincidence that person is an advertiser, regardless of his conviction there is going to be the appearance of a conflict. So if I were Leon, I would not hesitate to express an opinion, but maybe take an extra moment to think it all out before I posted. In no way should Leon's feelings be censored, but he has an extra responsibility as board owner; and likewise, he has to understand that because he does accept advertising, he may have to be more careful than others when wording some posts. That just goes with the territory.

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07-09-2007, 06:12 PM

Posted By: jay behrensFor those that don't know the full history between Leon and myself, there has been bad blood, but we've agreed to disagree on some issues. When I see something I think is wrong, I will bring it up. I've never been one to bite my tongue. I think for the most part we don't truly dislike each other, we just have a few disffering viewpoints that we both feel dtrongly about. I have no reason to dislike Leon as person. I really don't know him well enough to make that decision, but I do like him enough to go up to him at the National, shake his hand and talk with him. I've talked with him before and I hope to again. Talking with passionate collectors is always great. Hell, when I first came to the board, I went toe to toe with Mike Wentz and earned the nickname Dunderhead <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> At the last National in Chicago, who do you think I ended spending most of my time talking to? It was MW. Just because people have heated disagreements here doesn't mean we can't get along in person. The board is the board, the world outside this board is another thing. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-09-2007, 06:22 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI recently consigned items to Mastro in their internet auctions, and I can assure you that I was not allowed to bid on them. As someone pointed out, a few of them were VERY LOW and I would have been better off to buy them back myself if I could have. I was almost crying when my three rare 1947 Tip Top rookie cards went for like $125 or something terrible. I guess some of you are right in that I could have had some other board member bid on the cards for me, but short of utilizing lie detectors, I think that could happen at ANY auction. I see the point about "Top All" bids, and I agree 100% that an auction house should be SHUT DOWN if they are "peeking" at the max bids and then driving them all the way up themselves... but it sounds like the claim is that the SELLERS are doing this, not the auction house. I did win something for far less than my "Max Bid" in the last Mastro auction, so I don't think they're doing it. But I guess actually I was just lucky that the consignor of that item was too honest to have one of his friends driving the price up for him.

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07-09-2007, 06:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI really see no realistic way for an auction house to prevent a consignor from asking a friend to bid for him. There is simply no way that I, or anyone else, can make the determination that bidder so-and-so was not bidding on lots he wanted, but was just helping out a friend. In a perfect world everyone would be honest, but the world isn't perfect.

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07-09-2007, 06:29 PM

Posted By: Joe D.and he does a tremendous service by keeping this place from slipping into chaos. A thank you to Leon.

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07-09-2007, 06:38 PM

Posted By: Bobby BinderI am a paid advertiser on the site in the B/S/T section and to date Leon has not come to my defense. And I have gotten into more then one altercation on this board. He stripped me of my Avatar because it has my company logo. I think Leon is doing this because the Mastro people in general are a good bunch and not because he is getting paid a few dollars. I am sure that if he dropped them as an advertiser he could fill the spot in minutes.

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07-09-2007, 07:16 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI assume Leon was offering his opinion, as all posters do.

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07-09-2007, 07:24 PM

Posted By: leonyou edited your statement....It didn't sound quite right <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....

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07-10-2007, 07:19 AM

Posted By: MikeThere is one person who can answer these questions and more. Robert Lifson. Why did they separate?

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07-10-2007, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellMike, Exactly. Leon--given your defense of Mastronet, how do you interpret Rob Lifson's letter and subsequent comments about Mastronet? Jim

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07-10-2007, 08:35 AM

Posted By: leonI am not aware of any letter that Rob has written concerning Mastronet except for the one time there was a major shipping issue with some return addresses. He had no choice in that case. Please show me the letter so I can make an appropriate comment. It's my firm understanding that Rob would never write about another company, Mastro Auctions included. thanks much...

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07-10-2007, 08:48 AM

Posted By: JimmyThis info is disturbing, but I think it was mentioned earlier this year. Any auction house or even eBay should restrict bids by the consignor period. I have a small group of auctions every week on eBay and none of my consignors would ever bid - I can also block them from bidding if needed. When dealing with the FBI and the IRS definetly a serious matter and I just hope it does not get out of hand and things get worked out. I am sure, there is just two parties involved at this point Mastro's and the person that informed the FBI, I only hope. Jimmy below is from the <a href="http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/</a> The New York Daily News reported in its Sunday edition that the FBI has initiated an investigation of Chicago-based Mastro Auctions, considered the largest sports memorabilia auction house in the hobby. There was no confirmation from the Bureau, but Daily News reporter Michael O'Keeffe reported that Bill Brandt, President of a company hired by the state of Ohio to liquidate collectibles bought with stolen state funds by convicted felon Tom Noe, had deferred some of their activities to the FBI's own investigation. Noe's holdings reportedly included items purchased from Mastro Auctions. O'Keeffe also quoted a dealer as saying he had been interviewed within "the last ten days". Another person in the hobby also said he had been contacted by the FBI but would not comment further.

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07-10-2007, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, This is a well known letter that was discussed on this board--I will try to find when I get the time. Jim

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07-10-2007, 09:46 AM

Posted By: leonJim- find the letter and lets take a look. I am quite sure of my last response. Maybe Rob stated "other" auction houses, or something to that effect....but I will believe he mentioned Mastro when I see it (except for the one shipping debacle which has been stated previously).... Jimmy boxing card guy- Okeefe has it out for Mastro, plain and simple. Okeefe is continuing to talk about a yr old investigation and now throws in some more hearsay...I am NOT saying the investigation is not relevent. It is....It has been going on for a yr though. Please show me something from someone other than the person who has it out for Mastro. I would say that if nothing has come to light in a yr in must not be too strong of a case/allegation. And for the record....I absolutely understand there is a perceived conflict of interest in my taking up for Mastro. There is by virtue of them being an advertiser. At the same time why is it no one says anything about Okeefe? He obviously doesn't like Mastro....anyone ever consider the author of all of this stuff? If Mastro made illegal mistakes I am sure it will come out in the press. Until then it's an ongoing investigation with no teeth to date.....best regards

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07-10-2007, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI've heard the FBI has it out for Mastro too. And Atty Genl Gonzalez. And Bush, too. Hugo Chavez also. O'Keefe is just their mouthpiece.

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07-10-2007, 09:52 AM

Posted By: shane leonardI placed a bid on my own item one year ago when it opened up just to see if it would allow me to. I had heard that people can bid on their own item and wanted to prove that theory. It kicked it back that I was unable to bid on my own item. Do you realize that in other auction houses (cars and antiques) that a consignor can bid on his own item? If they win, they pay both sides of it. This is really not that big of a deal. I will bid on the items that I want, with who I want and when I want. If I feel the cost of the item is not worth it, I bow out. Some of you sure like to bitch and complain about a lot of stuff out there. Times must be really bad for you guys to have to complain so much.

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07-10-2007, 09:53 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, Don't think there was any doubt he was referring to Mastronet although he did not mention it by name. Jim

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07-10-2007, 10:01 AM

Posted By: Joe D.but this is back peddling at its best, no? Jim: "Leon--given your defense of Mastronet, how do you interpret Rob Lifson's letter and subsequent comments about Mastronet?" Leon: "I am not aware of any letter that Rob has written concerning Mastronet except for the one time there was a major shipping issue with some return addresses. He had no choice in that case. Please show me the letter so I can make an appropriate comment." Jim: "This is a well known letter that was discussed on this board--I will try to find when I get the time." Leon: "find the letter and lets take a look." Jim: "Don't think there was any doubt he was referring to Mastronet although he did not mention it by name." Didn't mention them by name?!? If Jeff L. (or anyone) was defending Mastronet in a court of law... I think that exchange would have been a homerun.

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07-10-2007, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, Rob Lifson in an open letter-- "Some of the most sophisticated work on cards has been executed by employees of auction houses that deal in cards." Doug Allen's reply-- "the only auction house that I know of that has employees that handle significant volumes of raw cards for grading is Mastro Auctions and I can tell you we don't do sophisticated work on cards".

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07-10-2007, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Rob DewolfThis is really not that big of a deal. I will bid on the items that I want, with who I want and when I want. If I feel the cost of the item is not worth it, I bow out. Some of you sure like to bitch and complain about a lot of stuff out there. Times must be really bad for you guys to have to complain so much. Let's think through the above statement. You place a bid of $1,000 on an item because that's what you think it's worth and what you are willing to pay. There is only one other legitimate bidder, who bids $200. By all rights you should win the item for $220 (or whatever bidding increment the auction house uses). Instead, a shill bidder places a bid of $800. You've now won the item for $880, still below what you think it's worth, but far beyond what you rightfully should have to pay, if only "legitimate" bids had been used. And "this is really not that big of a deal"? I'm not saying that policing such actions is easy to do or even that Mastro is guilty of doing anything improper, but please don't suggest that illegal bidding isn't a big deal just because you set a maximum bid for yourself and are disciplined enough to stick to it.

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07-10-2007, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRob, times must be tough for you too to complain about the possibility of getting ripped off due to shill bidding. Perhaps you'd like to join me and Jim Crandell at the unemployment office today wherein we can ponder our fates.

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07-10-2007, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisHey, I know a good book you guys can read while you stand in line, stuck in the bureaucratic morass. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-10-2007, 10:49 AM

Posted By: shaneRob, You are right. I don't want to be run up and I want to get the item for as cheap as I can. Sometimes you have to overpay for a card you need. If you collect 1964 Topps, you can't understand where I am coming from on this issue. If you collect the rare, prewar cards- sometimes you got to do what you got to do to win it. I have never felt like I have been run up by Mastro and they have had plenty of times they could have taken advantage of me.

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07-10-2007, 10:51 AM

Posted By: shaneJeff, It must be nice to always be right. You are the most intelligent person I know. Shane

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07-10-2007, 10:51 AM

Posted By: Rob DewolfJeff, Silly me. I didn't realize that the state of the country's economy -- or my economy, for that matter -- had any bearing on whether illegal practices by auction houses are worthy of my concern. Hal, I already bought one. I'm waiting to go stand in line until after it arrives.

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07-10-2007, 10:55 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellI have bought a fair amouunt of stuff from Mastro over the years and never really thought I was being run up. Now there is another auction house that I stopped buying from where I definately had that feeling not only because I would win their stuff at the maximum all the time but because the prices they would get were staggering.

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07-10-2007, 10:55 AM

Posted By: JimmyLeon, Thanks for the feedback - we will have to wait and see, the hobby just seems to be getting too big fast. I am sure that the investigation would be significant if more articles and evidence did turn up. In a few years, the hobby will turn into an industry not a business, maybe it already has? I think that is way all the attention Jimmy

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07-10-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: Rob DewolfI could collect only the rarest of pre-war cards in existence and still not understand where you're coming from. Somehow you've equated overpaying for a card -- which I've done many times and have no problem with as long as it's my choice -- with being forced to pay more than you should because of illegal bids. Those two aren't one in the same. Not even close.

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07-10-2007, 11:20 AM

Posted By: CatI trust Mastro more than I trust our Federal government!!!

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07-10-2007, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanShane, thanks for the compliment. I always love compliments when they come from smart people like you.

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07-10-2007, 11:37 AM

Posted By: leonYou said: "Perhaps you'd like to join me and Jim Crandell at the unemployment office today wherein we can ponder our fates." If it comes to that maybe we can get you a discounted rate with Mastro to consign your cards to? I am sure you could live for at least a few days on the proceeds. Otherwise, I know some restaurants you could buy cheaply? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Seriously, if Mastro, or any auction house, is caught doing anything illegal they should be punished. End of story. Mastro, or any auction house, should also be innocent until proven guilty. You and a lot of the board prefer them to be guilty until proven innocent. You say you think they are greedy. I would argue it's the nature of "for profit" business and capitalism to be greedy. I like how they are so greedy they are charging to their live auction and donating the proceeds to charity. Personally, I think this reprinted old article was Okeefe printing something else to sell more books. Maybe in another year he will dole out some more hearsay and start all over again? Maybe it won't take that long?

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07-10-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, I think they are innocent until proven guilty. My beef with Mastronet is that Doug comes on the board and postures and refuses to answer questions--generally in regards to his past admissions that Mastronet took creases out of cards. To the extent you are his buddy, maybe you can urge him to be truthful and forthcoming in describing the company's business practices. Jim

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07-10-2007, 12:03 PM

Posted By: leonI do consider Doug a friend but it's not like we are best buds. I speak with him every now and then as I do a lot of folks. I am not sure why you continue to embellish things either? If I remember correctly I think Doug had said they would potentially take out a surface wrinkle. There is a difference in most collectors opinions of a wrinkle vs a crease. To me a wrinkle only goes through one side whereas a crease goes through both. It's sort of semantics but sort of not when we talk about the potential for a crease or wrinkle to come back after it's been taken out. Also I think we spoke about the integrity of the card stock from a crease vs a wrinkle. I used to be ok with taking a wrinkle out ( I HAVE NEVER DONE THAT OR ASKED ANYONE TO DO THAT FOR ME)....but have since changed my view. I feel wrinkles and creases should be left alone. I still don't have a problem with any other first tier (as Dave Forman so eloquently put it) restoration. All he said is that if it can't be detected it can't be detected so please don't go and say that I said Dave said it was ok to alter cards. He didn't. I have soaked cards in water to get dirt and paper remnants off, pushed down a corner if it pops up, and erased marks on cards. If the erased mark leaves an indentation I always note it. If it doesn't then I don't say anything. I just had an auction end with a MK qualifier (PSA 4 MK) due to indentions from an erasure. The card was encapsulated when I bought it. I made note of it in the auction description even though I didn't have to. I have a feeling anything Doug says on this board will be misconstrued .....not sure why I feel that way but I do. I would not throw a friend into harms way like that....If he wants to come on and say anything he is welcome to...but I won't be asking him to....regards

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07-10-2007, 12:08 PM

Posted By: Jim Crandelland Leon--will you comment on Rob's quote?

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07-10-2007, 12:19 PM

Posted By: leonI doubt it but you never showed me what you were talking about? Show me and I will let you know. If it's something Rob was saying in general then why would I think it's only aimed at Mastro and why would I comment about it? You are phishing.....and I am not biting....but first you need to at least put bait on the hook....show me.....

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07-10-2007, 12:21 PM

Posted By: Jim Crandell"I feel wrinkles and creases should be left alone"--Leon Lucky(7/9/07)wow! Mark the date. Here is Doug's exact quote-- "I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface" As I previously stated I have a 48 Leaf Joe D with a very light surface wrinkle that is a PSA 4-- Last I remember from Doug he said he would report back to us after consulting with SGC and PSA--no report as far as I can remember but he seems to have chenged his tune about taking out light creases as Mastro Auctions "prepares" cards for grading. With two hobby giants--Leon Lucky and Doug Allen seemingly opposing taking wrinkles out of the cards we can only guess what may be next for the hobby Leon--I am trying to be somewhat funny here--I would put up a smiley face if I knew how. Regards, Jim

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07-10-2007, 12:23 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, I gave you the exact quotes--I don't know how to put the thread up but it was from the November 2006 thread where Doug admitted taking light creases out of cards. Jim

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07-10-2007, 12:30 PM

Posted By: leonWhat Doug said there really is semantics.....I will let him answer if he wants to.....At the time I didn't think much of a surface wrinkle being taken out but it is such a slippery slope that I changed my view. I hope I am allowed to do that after I consider something and give it more thought. As for hobby Giants...I think Doug might be though he probably would be too modest to say it....and the only thing giant about me is my stomach and ego <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....best regards <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-10-2007, 12:39 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellLeon, You are allowed. You are also allowed to take credit for being a trendsetter as the rest of the hobby comes over to your position. Will await your response on Rob. Jim

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07-10-2007, 02:15 PM

Posted By: Rich Klein: followed by ) give you the <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ; followed by ) gives you a wink <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> It's pretty easy Regards Rich

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07-10-2007, 02:21 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellI get that part--just don't know how to do the little yellow faces that Leon and you put into your posts.

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07-10-2007, 02:24 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhen you type a colon and then a parenthesis, it turns into a smiley face when you hit "respond." Try it!

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07-10-2007, 02:26 PM

Posted By: ErlandStevensYou must also leave the "enable formatted text" box checked. If it's unchecked, a <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> will just look like a couple punctuation marks.

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07-10-2007, 02:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI never knew that, but I just looked at my box and it is checked. Don't ever remember doing that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-10-2007, 02:33 PM

Posted By: ErlandStevensAnother weird thing... If you uncheck "enable formatted text", the : ) will still show a :) in the preview. Hit respond and you just get : ).

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07-10-2007, 02:35 PM

Posted By: ErlandStevensThat last post made no sense b/c the box was unchecked. The point was that checked or not, you will get the smiley face in the preview.

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07-10-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: BobI think I now have Excedrin headache #206 from reading 120 posts on the Mastro situation. Rather than rehashing, I have 3 things to say: 1) I think Doug Allen is a really nice guy but to think he would come here and "tell all" is ludicrous. His attorney would cuff him (literally) on the back of the head. The FBI certainly doesn't need the help of any comments he might make on the Net54 Board, however innocuous, in making its case against Mastro, if Mastro is in fact being investigated. 2) No one likes shilling and if in fact (big IF) Mastro was involved in that, then katy bar the door they should be put out of business for its practice. This all remains to be proven and we shouldn't jump the gun. 3) Anne Coulter is trash. Pure, unadulterated white trash. She could easily be pictured in a long black trench coat, blonde hair tightly pulled back, and a swastika on her arm in 1936 Berlin. There are conservative commentators and political observers who I might not agree with but respect and who are decent, intelligent people. Coulter is not one of them. Her comments about John Edwards' deceased son shocked even the most conservative of my friends and revealed the guttersnipe for what she truly is- white trash wrapped up in a sleek package.

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07-10-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: jay behrensImagine if the name Mastro was removed from the discussion and replaced with some lower level auction house/dealer from eBay. Now imagine the unrelenting hammering they would get for something like this. This board can be very hypocritical at times. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-10-2007, 03:50 PM

Posted By: D.C. MarkelIn my many years of collecting, I am aware of several investigations by the FBI pertaining to sports collectibles. Some were legitimate where people were arrested and convicted. However on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I can recall not too long ago where one FBI investigation was initiated and quickly closed and no arrests were made. In short some despicable eBay dealer filed various trumped-up criminal charges against a collector as a means of retaliation for giving the seller negative feedback on an eBay transaction. So the bottom line is Mastro could be in big trouble or they could just be the unfortunate victim of some disgruntled party. When arrests are made, I will take notice.

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07-10-2007, 04:09 PM

Posted By: peter chaoThe old adage is "where there's smoke, there is fire." It's pretty simple, the Feds will indict only if they believe that they can convict. This is quite different than if Mastro is running a shilling operation. It is quite difficult in this situation to get sufficient evidence. There may be shilling going on but the Feds do not believe that they can convict and may never ask for an indictment. For instance, almost everybody believes Barry was using steroids, but so far the Feds have not indicted. They are being held back only by the sufficiency of the evidence and not by whether they believe he took steroids. Peter

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07-10-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: AnonymousIMO Mastro would make more money and be more respected if they hired someone to validate and remove potentially altered cards instead of altering them.

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07-10-2007, 04:27 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanKevin, very succinct and very correct. However, as Leon correctly points out, Mastro is in the business of making money which includes altering cards that they can then sell for more money. Removing cards from their auctions that are altered would cause them to lose money. Bad business model. Peter, my mouth is agape once again. Is there a 'mouth agape' emoticon?

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07-10-2007, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellPeter, Forget what Jeff tells you--I know who I am hiring if I need a first rate lawyer.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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07-10-2007, 04:39 PM

Posted By: Rob DewolfThis is you being controversial again, right?

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07-10-2007, 04:44 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellRob, Don't know--have never said anything to Peter before but he broadsided me a little while ago with the comment about how he was sure I made some contributions to the board but he couldn't think of one. Just want to let him know he is my man when I need legal help.

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07-10-2007, 04:47 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback<img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/spotondrums/chrisfarley4.jpg">

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07-10-2007, 04:49 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJim, Thank you for your confidence in me. However, I'm not offering brilliant insight here. That's the reason why the Feds have put so much pressure on Greg Anderson to testify. It is also the reason why Greg Anderson doesn't want to testify. Peter

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07-10-2007, 04:56 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellPeter, My decision to choose you as my attorney of choice is not based on one comment but the cumulative wisdom you have shown since you have been posting. Keep it coming. Jim

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07-10-2007, 04:58 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanUm. The delicious irony in Peter's last post is almost too much to resist. So many layers of irony. I...must...refrain...from....commenting (in best William Shatner "Star Trek" era voice).

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07-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDavid, I was thinking more along these lines: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1184022150.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1184022173.JPG">

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07-10-2007, 05:17 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockIf Barry (Sloate) is indicted for steroid use I'm leaving the hobby.

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07-10-2007, 05:34 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI weigh 150 pounds!

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07-10-2007, 05:38 PM

Posted By: leonYou said "Will await your response on Rob." I think that is the 3rd time you have asked me to respond to something and this will be the 3rd time I say "to what?". Show me where Rob said something about Mastro Auctions, and not the shipping debacle which was a printers fault, and I will be more inclined to comment....Not saying I would but I at least would know what the heck you are getting at.....regards

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07-10-2007, 07:38 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, I gotta tell you--you have a unique way of avoiding the question--I told you what was said earlier. It was the hobby news story of the year when Rob came out with his slam which I quoted that everyone assumed was about Mastronet--Doug even responded that since he was the only house that dealt with raw cards that therwe was vnoone else he could be talking about So avoid the question--fine--I just wanted to give you a chance to defend your buddy. Jim

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07-10-2007, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovJim, when you state that Peter C. is your choice to be your attorney, you are supposed to add the wink icon! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

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07-10-2007, 08:35 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellFrank, You are expecting too much. I just learned how to do the smile icon today--I will master one per week. Do you know much about the Horrors of War set? Jim

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07-10-2007, 08:58 PM

Posted By: leonYa know...I just wrote a blistering paragraph and deleted it. I have nothing left to say to you. We collect and think differently.. Have a good one....

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07-10-2007, 09:18 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, it may be a bad business model in respect to Mastro's goals, but it is the stated business model of REA. Rob Lifson has stated he won't accept card or other items he knows to be altered. Given Rob's reputation, I doubt that his business will be hurt at all. Rob is the one true beacon of light in all this mess Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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07-10-2007, 09:21 PM

Posted By: AnonymousEvery once in while (OK, more than once in a while), REA likes to communicate about issues that we think deserve attention but for some reason are receiving little or no attention. There are several topics that we would like to bring to the attention of buyers today, in the hopes of educating buyers and maybe saving someone money. 1) Practically every day we are seeing fake items. Fake printed items. Posters that are actually reproductions of vintage posters. Stand-up cardboard counter displays that are not real. Babe Ruth Candy wrappers that are not real. Fans that picture baseball player portraits that are reproductions. Photographs that appear to be old but are not vintage. There is no limit to what can be made with computers, especially with printing equipment available today that is very economical and which years ago did not even exist. These items are being intentionally made to fool people into parting with their money for worthless items. These items are being made to cheat buyers. Many of these items are somehow reproduced from books and auction catalogs, often enlarged from small quality illustrations to their correct original size. With computers these days, it is possible for some criminals to produce very real-looking reproductions and also to produce "fantasy pieces" (defined as those items that are not actually reproductions, as there is no original, but are made to look old to fool buyers). This is a BIG problem. These items are offered to us practically every day, and they are being offered to us by collectors who themselves are victims. Most of the sophisticated fake items of this type that we have seen appear to have one thing in common: They were purchased by sellers in the state of Ohio. It is obvious to us that the individual(s) responsible for most or all of these imaginative quality fakes is located in the state of Ohio, though these items are now circulating throughout the country. It is easy for us to tell in almost all cases whether an item is real or not, often just from a scan. We understand from experience that not everyone can, including the numerous victims who have sent us these recently produced fake items which at a glance appear to be vintage items. If you think that you have purchased a fake item of this type and would like our opinion, we will be happy to be of assistance. Please write and/or send scans. 2) In recent weeks we have received a number of consignments of graded cards that has motivated us to adopt a formal policy regarding altered professionally graded cards that we have not previously seen a need to articulate. The altering of cards is so widespread, and "card doctors" so brazen, that REA has actually been receiving cards submitted for auction to us that are the very same cards that have been sold by REA previously - in some cases just months earlier - and which, since purchase, have been significantly altered, reholdered, and now grade higher according to the grading label. In some cases a given card has changed hands and the new consignor was not even aware it was a seriously altered card. It is our policy that when we are aware of such a problem, and we ARE looking, we will be happy to auction the card in question - but insist on providing all information describing the alterations which have occurred to the card of which we are certain. So far, the potential consignors of such cards have elected to have these cards returned rather than have a proper description provided by REA. Last week we returned a $10,000 card. The consignor couldn't believe it was the same card that we had just sold (in a lower grade and looking quite different) in a previous auction. Only after being provided with images of the card as it appeared when we previously sold it was the consignor finally convinced. We're not guessing here. We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic, it is particularly disturbing that some of the most sophisticated "work" on cards (including the previously mentioned $10,000 card) has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards. We have to ask ourselves "What is going on here?" Turning a blind eye to this issue, in our opinion, has far greater and more significant negative potential consequences than our calling attention to it and promoting discussion. We all know that there is a subjectivity to grading and that sometimes there is an honest difference of opinion regarding a grade, or sometimes even an honest mistake. We're not talking about honest mistakes here. Active and sophisticated collectors, dealers, and auction houses know that this is a problem. They just don't talk about it, except among themselves. In the end, the collector loses. We want to be clear that we think the major grading services do a valiant job and we can't imagine what the landscape of the marketplace would look like without them. That doesn't mean there are no problems. At the end of the day, we have this advice: "Buy the card, not the holder." 3) REA highly recommends reading the just-released book "Operation Bullpen, The Inside Story of the Biggest Forgery Scam in American History". If you collect autographs, or have an interest in the field in any way, (or just like a great crime-related book), this book is required reading. This is a great book that we think every collector should read. You can order the book online at www.OperationBullpen.com or call Southampton Books at (707) 747-4705. REA has never been shy about calling attention to what we think are significant problems and issues facing the field. It is our hope that openly communicating about issues which deserve attention, which are so important to so many people, will help us to come up with better ways to address these issues, and in the long run will have a positive impact. That's how progress is made. Your ideas and suggestions are always welcome. Sincerely, Robert Edward Auctions LLC www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

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07-10-2007, 09:27 PM

Posted By: P SpaethPete C. I would leave the criminal law to Lichtman and stick to "class auctions." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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07-10-2007, 09:42 PM

Posted By: leonIf that is the letter I am not sure what the inuendos would be so I won't comment on it. Like I said, most likely I wasn't going to comment on what Rob said anyway. I don't feel it's my place. I think altering is important to the hobby....just not as important to my collection and what I really want to talk about every day on the board. If others do then that is fine...I will try to be intelligent when I acquire cards (eyes wide open with help from folks like Kevin) and focus on the pleasures of the hobby. Quite honestly if anyone that only collects plastic wants to participate in a forum maybe they need to find a board talking about polymers....

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07-10-2007, 09:49 PM

Posted By: P SpaethBeing holier than thou can be a difficult ground to stake out for oneself.

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07-10-2007, 10:42 PM

Posted By: Jerry Hrechka Jim The 2 guys to speak with about the HOW set are Marty Quinn and Mark Finn. I know Mark has posted about his problems with Mastro where he didn't receive all the items listed in a Mastro Lot (And the rarest items - Original artwork of high number R158 Gum Inc. Home Defense - were the ones he got short changed on). As far as I know he got banned from bidding on Mastro Auctions. He posted about his problems with Mastro on the NonSport board.

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07-11-2007, 05:36 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellRob Lifson--"some of the most sophisticated work on cards has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that work on cards" Doug Allen essentially replied--we are the only house that fits that description but we don't do sophisticated work on cards. Leon--"no comment" Thank you OSeedy for posting this extremely important letter. Jim

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07-11-2007, 05:38 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you Jerry--I looked at the registry and referred a long-time participant on this board who asked to you and Marty. Jim

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07-11-2007, 05:57 AM

Posted By: leonWhat's important to you and most of the rest of the board are two entirely different things. Have fun anguishing over your plastic...

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07-11-2007, 06:03 AM

Posted By: Dave FCrandell I've bit my tongue throughout this whole thread. But once again you come out of the depths of blackness everytime anything related to this subject comes up. You have said you don't read this board...yet obviously you do...you never miss a beat when the time comes. Its amazing how you can continually badger pretty much the same five or so people on this board. Its certainly tiresome. Reminds me of the possum that keeps getting in my trashcan. Dave

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07-11-2007, 06:09 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellIt is fun Leon--I'm a true collector--every card in every set I collect and I like it in high quality. I also like it unaltered as do most on this board. Card alteration is widespread in ungraded cards, it is widespread in low-to-mid grade and now its permeating high grade. As one leading national dealer e-mailed me yesterday--"the funny thing is that collectors think that ungraded cards aren't just as much if not more impacted(by alteration)than graded cards". If you want to ignore all this and get in your digs against me fine--your supporters and my detractors will no doubt come to your defense. But in the hobby as a whole there is increased recognition of it every day--just look at where we are now versus six months ago...and it has the potential and I would say even the liklihood of continuing to change the hobby for the worse each day it goes unchecked. Jim

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07-11-2007, 06:15 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethTo be clear my holier than thou comment was addressed to the REA letter not anyone on this board.

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07-11-2007, 10:58 AM

Posted By: jayLike i said before, the grading services killed the coin business and it will kill the card business It's ashame that Mastro will be remembered as a major crook in this hobby. His Company along with the grading services (psa, sgc) should all go down together. They are one big family that have been screwing collectors over for years so that they can get richer. There's an old wise saying "greed ($$$) eventually leads to suffering (caught by FBI)" REA is doing a wonderful job in pointing these problems out.

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07-11-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier"To be clear my holier than thou comment was addressed to the REA letter not anyone on this board." Hi Peter, I read that last night and was still laughing when I woke up.

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07-11-2007, 11:08 AM

Posted By: E, Daniel"The old adage is "where there's smoke, there is fire." It's pretty simple, the Feds will indict only if they believe that they can convict. This is quite different than if Mastro is running a shilling operation. It is quite difficult in this situation to get sufficient evidence. There may be shilling going on but the Feds do not believe that they can convict and may never ask for an indictment. " Great stuff Pete C. You now have Mastro guilty of wrongdoing regardless of there being any evidence to support the allegation. I think you're participating in the old adage, throw some **** and some of it will stick. Awesome! Daniel

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07-11-2007, 11:37 AM

Posted By: peter chaoDaniel, Kevin An investigation is just an investigation...but the FBI seldom investigates if there is no evidence. Peter

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07-11-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Rob DewolfPeter, So you're saying that -- typically -- the FBI would need evidence of a crime having been committed before they would begin an investigation?

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07-11-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: JKActually Peter, The FBI will investigate complaints, leads, etc. - usually the investigation turns up the evidence, if there is any to be turned up. In this case, its my understanding that the FBI is investigating a complaint of shill bidding. Also, Im no criminal lawyer, but I always thought that guilt was determined when the evidence of said guilt was beyond a reasonable doubt. Not when there was just "some" evidence.

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07-11-2007, 11:54 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJK, Like Peter S. says, I should leave criminal law to Jeff, I'm just giving you a layperson's opinion here. The FBI recieves a lot of complaints all day long. The complaints themselves is potential evidence. They have their own internal standards as to which complaints they will pursue and investigate. They do not pursue every complaint. Normally, when they are investigating they are looking for additional evidence. Peter

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07-11-2007, 11:59 AM

Posted By: JKPeter, First - I never said the FBI investigates each and every complaint that they receive. One would assume they have screening mechanisms in place. Second - a complaint, in and of itself, is not evidence. Its an allegation. Though I agree that when a complaint is made, it may be accompanied by evidence.

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07-11-2007, 12:01 PM

Posted By: leonSeems like if there were an investigation going on by the FBI that the President of Mastro would have ever spoken to them or know about it. They haven't and all this is, is pure gossip. Not one shred of absolute evidence that there is an investigation going on at all. Not one. All we have is some guy (O'keefe) running at the mouth writing a ficitional column. Did Noe do stuff wrong? Absolutely and was found guilty. That's all there is...... Doug has never spoken to the FBI nor is he aware of an investigation, he told me this morning. I told him there is no way he should come on this board to have the few folks that don't like Mastro twist his words the way they always do. Until I see something that proves there is an investigation going on then I feel this is all a contrived bullcrap story. Prove me wrong or shut the hell up... edited grammar

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07-11-2007, 12:03 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, We find it much more interesting to hear your interpretation of criminal law than Jeff's. Keep on giving us your views <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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07-11-2007, 12:08 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe presence of evidence doesn't automatically mean anything bad happened. In fact, evidence regularly exists when someone is innocent. If a customer was at a bank the day when money was stolen: that is evidence that he committed a crime. There may be other evidence that shows he didn't steal the money. A look at video tape may show he left at noon, not returning that day, while the money was stolen as 4. Say one person committed a crime and the police say, "There is evidence that one of you five guys committed the crime." This is evidence against each of the five, but does not equate with all five having committed the crime. In fact, it literally equates with 4-5 not having committed the crime. While I'm sure they don't wish to waste their time, the FBI 'looking at evidence' does not automatically equate with guilt or even a crime. The FBI may decide that the evidence shows a crime was not committed. One can't determine innocence or guilt before looking at the evidence.

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07-11-2007, 12:18 PM

Posted By: PSpaethIf it was already reproduced my apologies, Leon please delete. --------------------------------------------------------------------- FBI probes hobby biz honchos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Sunday, July 8th 2007, 4:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Print Email Suggest a Story The Chicago division of the FBI, whose "Operation Foul Ball" smashed a multistate autograph forgery ring during the 1990s, has initiated an investigation into Mastro Auctions, sports memorabilia's largest auction house. At least two hobby executives have been questioned about Mastro Auction's business practices in recent weeks by the FBI, the Daily News has learned. So has the president of Development Specialists Inc., the company hired by the state of Ohio to liquidate coins and collectibles purchased with state money by Tom Noe, the Republican Party official convicted last year of stealing from a $50 million workers compensation fund and sentenced to 18 years in prison. "We have talked to the Chicago office of the FBI about their investigation and we are deferring some of our activities in deference to their investigation," DSI president William Brandt said. FBI spokesman Ross Rice said he could not confirm or deny an investigation into Mastro Auctions was underway. Mastro Auctions president Doug Allen said he was not aware of the FBI investigation. "We have not been contacted by the FBI or by the police," Allen said. "I have not heard anything about it." Indiana memorabilia dealer Bill Daniels, one of the hobby executives questioned by the FBI, said he provided information about "shill bidding," when an auction house or a consignor enters fake bids on an item in order to drive up the price. "I gave them the name of a consignor who bid on his own lots in Mastro Auctions," said Daniels, who was interviewed by an agent about 10 days ago. "I think this is a big problem. It is not ethical for a consignor to bid on his own lots." Daniels sued Mastro Auctions last year over a collection of 2,000 autographed photos he purchased in a December 2004 Mastro sale. Daniels claims the lot includes numerous forged autographs, as well as damaged photos and smeared signatures. An Indiana judge reviewed evidence from both sides this spring and is expected to issue a ruling this month. "One thing I discussed with the FBI is the fact that during discovery, Mastro could produce no records about the lot," Daniels said. "They could not produce records about who the runnerup was or whether there were even any other bidders." The other executive, meanwhile, confirmed that he has been questioned by the FBI but declined comment for this story. As The News reported last year, investigators who searched Noe's Vintage Coins and Collectibles in Maumee, Ohio, in 2005 found a cache of collectibles - everything from Beanie Babies to 19th century political banners to autographed baseballs - worth an estimated $3.5 million. Authorities believe the GOP fund-raiser bought most of the collectibles with state money; a major source of the memorabilia was Mastro Auctions of Burr Ridge, Ill. Brandt said Mastro Auctions has not cooperated with DSI officials as they attempt to recover and liquidate assets Noe bought with money from the Ohio Bureau of Workers Compensation fund. He said attorney Randy Mastro, a deputy mayor under Mayor Rudy Giuliani and the brother of Mastro Auctions founder Bill Mastro, has told him to "pound sand." "That's not true," Allen said. "I don't believe what anybody from that company says. It's comical. It's all lies."