Mastro Auction Descriptions [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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05-28-2007, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenHey Guys, I have read with interest many of your comments about our write-ups. Additionally, a good customer of ours provided some very credible feedback of certain lots where the write-ups in his estimation crossed the line. I don't choose to debate it here but I would like ot offer some comments. First, it is important to note that when these comments were brought to my attention earlier this year much of the June Classic was pretty much put to bed so any reaction would not show in full force until this summer. Second, this body in in the minority. Many of our customers who admittedly are not as advanced in their knowledge as the collectors on this formum love the detailed historical write-ups. A number have even indicated it is what draws them to the auctions and makes them take things to the next level. You guys are great customers whom I value but you do not represent a majority of the spend in this great hobby of ours. It is my job to ascertain the needs of all our customers when deciding how to produce catalogs. If it was just you guys it would save us a ton of money as a large image and short desciption would suffice. Third, we have listened. I agree that when detailed even flamboyant write-ups cloud condition descriptions that is problematic. It is not appropriate to let the positive attributes of a particular lot cloud specific problems with cards that need to be disclosed. Case in point "vintage remnants of album removal" is "back damage" no matter how you slice it. In short we will still differenctiate ourselves with supperior artistic design, images and historical write-ups when assembling our event catalogs...on the other hand we will work diligently to ensure that is seperate and destinct from describing the condition of individual cards and card lots. Hope this helps clarify our position. All the best, Doug

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05-28-2007, 03:47 PM

Posted By: randHi Doug, always great to hear from you. I agree with both sides of this topic. I think the descriptions are just to long and have to much fluff in them. I think both sides can be serviced with less verbage. I will be sending you money soon, as the next auction is around the corner.

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05-28-2007, 03:53 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHi Doug- We all agree the detailed historic information is crucial and in no way would anybody suggest you take that out, regardless how long the text might be. But the sentences could be made a lot easier to read and everybody would be well served, both Mastro Auctions and the customers who enjoy studying the catalogs.

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05-28-2007, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCan someone interpret what Doug said for me? It was written much like the Mastro auction descriptions.

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05-28-2007, 04:11 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenThat was good Jeff! I will type slower this time :-> On one hand the descriptions in many cases will be long and detailed as we believe that is what the majority of our customers have come to appreaciate and expect...... On the other hand will work hard to keep the condition composites/descriptions clear and concise....not clouded by the flamboyant descriptions of why buying our lots are akin to solving world hunger. Hope that helps. Doug

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05-28-2007, 04:19 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI tend to like the long descriptions on lots that I am interested in - which are usually few and far between since I am mainly interested in specific photos and memorabilia....the more info the better. But how much of a description do you need for a 1914 cracker jack card? I suppose that's where all the flowery fluff is not needed nor appreciated.

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05-28-2007, 04:21 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThanks, Doug. After all, I'm not as intelligent or as educated as you are. Perhaps instead of discussing your puffery you could simply focus on accurately describing the cards you are selling and accurately indicating the alterations (excuse me, "preparation") you've done on them (or have been done on the cards prior to getting to you). In addition, real damage to the cards should be disclosed instead of downplaying it in order that the bids will be higher. I've noticed that any failure to accurately describe card damage has been in downplaying, rather than overplaying, the damage. Must just be a coincidence. Somehow I suspect these issues are more important to the Network 54 group than the used car salesman language that is often used in Mastro auctions. Oh and before I forget -- <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-28-2007, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthHi Doug, I am more of a picture guy. I never was the person who said I got Playboy for the articles. I digress, sorry. Rather than altering what many or some call flamboyant descriptions, I would love to see more pictures of cards from lots as well as larger images. Absent my coming out to Chicago to preview each auction I am generally bidding based on limited scans and fairly small ones at that. In many instances it has prevented me from bidding higher. Thanks for listening. Best, Greg

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05-28-2007, 04:32 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCi agree...as amazing as the Mastro Catalogs are, i would like to see less verbage and larger/more images of certain lots. all the fluffy romance, i can do without, let's just get down to brass.

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05-28-2007, 04:45 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think it's important to distinguish between a great historical artifact and a Pete Rose rookie. The artifact needs all the information you can provide for it; bidders expect that. But with a 1963 Pete Rose, there is actually a law that says you are permitted to be succinct. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-28-2007, 04:48 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovA picture is worth a thousand words. Frank

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05-28-2007, 04:57 PM

Posted By: leonDoug, I think what you are describing is hopefully the best of both worlds for folks. I like both the detailed descriptions and "some" of the puffery. If you are saying that ya'll are looking at having the long winded (and many times entertaining) write up about the history of the lot and the importance it has in the hobby and then the next paragraph is a detailed, extremely accurate description of the faults of the condition of the card/lot, then everyone should be happy. Also for expensive lots or premium lots the front/ back scans need to be there and very large.....just my 2 cents....and btw, I fully understand you will never, ever make everyone happy. good luck and thanks for coming on and giving your view of a much discussed situation...Almost NO large auction house principals would do that.....regards

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05-28-2007, 04:58 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCobviously i would want to hear more on the history, condition and provenance of a Lou Gehrig Jersey and less about how the corners of a PSA 9 Ted Williams could cut steak...

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05-28-2007, 05:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateCut steak...it's time for another NYC Dinner Thread. I'm up for steak. You see how threads naturally digress?

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05-28-2007, 05:15 PM

Posted By: DMcDWell, I am just a T-bone kinda guy. Love that T-bone. Now back to our regularly scheduled topic . . What Leon said. edited to undigress

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05-28-2007, 05:16 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCbarry, i was trying to get another NYC Dinner on the books, anyway...would actually be cool if you could join us, Doug...will you be in NYC anytime soon?

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05-28-2007, 05:19 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanLast night I went to Masa in the Time Warner building for my anniversary. Best meal that I've ever had in America, a once in a lifetime opportunity. Now how about we have the NYC Dinner Thread Dinner III there? Otherwise, Peter Lugers or Mortons?

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05-28-2007, 05:22 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCi heard masa is good...i wouldn't mind spending some coin on a nice meal... although, i have not been to Luger's yet. we can discuss offline, don't want to side-track Doug's thread too much.

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05-28-2007, 06:18 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesa must have for home made "TAMALES". Who needs New yuk ?

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05-28-2007, 06:26 PM

Posted By: JimBIt seems to me there are three types of information in Mastro descriptions: the puffery, the historical info, and the condition info. Obviously the latter two are the most important, but the first has never really bothered me so much. Sometimes I even find it amusing, though it is not what guides my bidding decisions. REA tends to focus on the historical info (and condition) and I generally find their catalogs to be more informative. I have not compared, but it seems like there used to be more of the historical information in your catalogs than there has been in recent years. JimB

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05-28-2007, 06:54 PM

Posted By: barrysloateLuger's would be great but you need a reservation a month in advance and I read that the price of beef will be skyrocketing. I never heard of Masa but I vote for something inexpensive and below 42nd Street (even my Brooklyn neighborhood is loaded with great places). Okay, I don't want to continue off topic. I'm done for now.

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05-28-2007, 07:02 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCone more O/T post... jeff- have you been down to the Waverly Inn yet in the west village? what a scene, good luck getting a table.

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05-28-2007, 07:08 PM

Posted By: jay behrensA step in the right direction. Now if you will start listing the "clean up" and "improvements" that have been done to a lot. Double checking basic info on cards would be a good thing too. The whole m101-5 Thorpe situation is inexcusable for a major auction house and makes you look like a bunch of eBay hacks. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-28-2007, 07:55 PM

Posted By: Dan KravitzI would like for Mastro to spend as much time describing the faults of the card as they do the puffing the positives. I want to know about creases, paperloss, wrinkles, markings, etc. When I buy a $10,000.00 card, it really is the only thing I am concerned about. I can see the edges and the color in the scan, but I may not be able to see creases and markings. The Wagner Mother's Bread is a great example of Mastro overlooking the problems with a card. They did go back and change the description, but only after someone brought it to their attention. Anyone who looked at the card could tell it had a crease through the middle and the card. I beleive that if you are going to list the positives you should list the negatives, or don't say anything at all and let the grade of the card speak for itself, otherwise it's a used car salesman pitch. I want honesty! Is that asking too much?

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05-28-2007, 07:56 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenHey Jeff, First of all I doubt if I am as educated or as intelligent as you....two cases in point #1 I sell baseball cards for a living and #2 I have no idea how you do those nice smiley faces...I still go with three key strokes :-> (is it that insert object button?). Regarding your comments.....let me break down my responses to each of your phrases: "Perhaps instead of discussing your puffery" - They are mutually exclusive...I can still "market" the cards as long as I describe them properly "you could simply focus on accurately describing the cards you are selling and accurately indicating the alterations (excuse me, "preparation") you've done on them (or have been done on the cards prior to getting to you)." - I agree completely. We will accurately describe the cards we sell and detail any alterations that we have knowledge of. I actually believe we do that today as evidenced by the fact that we have minimal card grading complaints or returns. "In addition, real damage to the cards should be disclosed instead of downplaying it in order that the bids will be higher. I've noticed that any failure to accurately describe card damage has been in downplaying, rather than overplaying, the damage. Must just be a coincidence. " - I agree we have at times fallen short on this point. We are making real changes in our process to avoid this in the future. I hope this is responsive to your questions. All the best, Doug

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05-28-2007, 08:04 PM

Posted By: David VarghaHow about accurate set descriptions such as, "We have cherry-picked the best cards and have submitted them to PSA for grading. The rest are not representative of what you see slabbed here. In fact, a couple of the raw ones may have been rejected by PSA on our submission, but look near mint"? DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-28-2007, 08:53 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethDoug, when you say you will completely disclose any alterations, I think to be clear you may wish to define your terms because what some consider alterations many don't. For example, is pressing down a corner an alteration? Taking out a surface wrinkle? Not to open a can o' worms but people do want to know, I think.

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05-28-2007, 09:16 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPeter, excellent point. Previous posts by Doug have shown that some things that Mastro doesn't consider alterations, other do and this is something certainly needs to be made perfectly clear so that there is no misunderstanding. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-28-2007, 09:20 PM

Posted By: Frank Evanov"We will accurately describe the cards we sell and detail any alterations that we have knowledge of." I echo Peter's question: will you detail corner pressing and erasing? Frank

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05-28-2007, 09:26 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDoug, thanks for responding. And Peter is correct: disclosing alterations is well and good as long as Mastro's defintion of 'alteration' is the same as the rest of ours. And while some of us may tend to disagree on whether, say, an erasure of a stray pencil mark is considered alteration, why not just disclose everything and let the bidder decide? The failure to fully disclose all of this information clearly is designed to increase bids under, in my mind, false pretense. Considering the size of Mastro's business and the fact that it has no real competitor, what could possibly be your problem with full disclosure?

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05-28-2007, 09:34 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethThis is an excerpt from a prior post by Doug; I have cut and paste with no changes his full response to a question concerning "acceptable" practices. I don't know if this list is coextensive with the way Doug defines what are "alterations" and what are not for purposes of disclosure. "3)What will Mastronet and its employees do (if anything) to improve the condition of cards that are consigned to it? Please adress the following Let me first react to the general question. Mastro Auctions will take raw cards and prepare them to grade. In my mind what this includes are practices that are accepted by grading services suck as laying down corners that may have "flipped" during handling, removing wax residue from the surface of a card and pressing out a light wrinkle that does not break the surface of the card. Here are my reactions to the following processes.... --cleaning card--such as taking glue off I have no problem with removing paste that remains from album removal especialy vintage paste that rarely damages the surface of the card. --taking out creases I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface. --erasing pencil marks I have no problem erasing "light" pencil marks. I believe dark ones impact the surface of the cards and therefore are better off left alone. --pressing cards This needs to be defined. I have no problem laying down corners or "flips" caused by handling. --trimming I am totally against trimming cards --bleachoing/recoloring I am totally against bleaching/recoloring cards"

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05-28-2007, 10:14 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenI am not going to get into this dialogue again. Many asked me if I regreted my previous posts...not at all. They led to numerous conversations collectors as well as with Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. As a culmination of all of this I will restate my position. Mastro Auctions will disclose any and all alterations to cards that we sell. If we are unable to detect an alteration and it is detected later we will issue a full refund. Sincerely, Doug Allen President Mastro Auctions

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05-28-2007, 10:17 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo, I suppose we are to assume that Mastro's policy on this issue has not changed. Thanks for clearing that up.

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05-28-2007, 10:23 PM

Posted By: AdamI don't get what all the fuss is. If someone does not like how Mastro Auctions does business, just don't bid on any of their items. It's as simple as that. Just give your money to some other auction house. While I respect the opinions everyone has, I at least like Mastro. I am confident in my abilities (as well as the abilities of other board members) to extract what is truly important from any "extensive descriptions" they may provide, and I will continue to bid on Mastro items of interest.

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05-28-2007, 10:35 PM

Posted By: randJeff, your tone is more than sarcastic, why dont you get JP or a Memory Lane rep here to discuss cards. No company is going to please everyone, its not the point, at least there is dialogue, i was pissed at the 20% and 10% bid increments because it severly lowered my chances of winning some cards, but at least we can have direct converstaion with Doug. I am sure if your work was published on the internet we would find a few flaws with you to.

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05-28-2007, 10:53 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenJeff, I never said my opinion didn't change. Not at all. What I did say is I am committed to communicating all known or detected alterations to cards. You are a good customer and you can rest assured when you bid in my auctions that we will do our best to disclose everything we know regarding card alterations. Once you win something if you were to find we missed something (which can happen since we handle so many cards) I will step up and buy the card back. What more can one ask for than that? All the best, Doug

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05-29-2007, 05:59 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFirst off, JP Cohen is a fraudster and we've already seen the sort of crap he pulls in auctions. Doug knows I don't feel that way about Mastro; I simply want Mastro to be more open and a better auction house. Second, that Doug comes out here and provides his position is wonderful -- except when the position he provides is less than what either myself or many others hoped for. All I want to know is what sort of 'alteration' is Mastro willing to disclose? Understand this: I am not saying that I think that all of Mastro's 'preparation' of cards for auction is wrong; I simply want to know if something, anything, has been done to the cards, period. And Rand, you're right: it must be tough for, say, the national media to pick apart every word that comes out of your mouth in a high-pressure situation. Can't imagine how tough that must be.

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05-29-2007, 11:48 AM

Posted By: Bruce Perrynow if they could only spell!!!!!!!!!!!!...........the mastro catalog descriptions are usually excellent and quite interesting, and the majority of people "get it"....I do not think it is mastro auctions job to baby the uninformed collector...they can email or call mastro auctions and get a more thorough description or explanation......the catalogs are getting thicker and heavier as it is, with what seems to be an increasing number of lots...and the fed ex trucks are having quite a time transporting them

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05-29-2007, 01:20 PM

Posted By: jay behrensThink about what you just said. It would take then more time to answer questions if they left out pertinent info than if they included it from the get go. Besides, I think there are certain things they have to cover in the description in order to protect themselves legally. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-29-2007, 01:50 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo I guess it would be babying the uninformed bidder to disclose a major restoration job on a Keeler cabinet (without getting the ok from the consignor or charging him for the work done) before attempting to pass it off as minimal restoration work? If that's babying, pass me the pacifier....

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05-29-2007, 02:04 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethTake your pick. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1180382678.JPG">

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05-29-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI'm partial to blue.

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05-29-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: leon<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1180387770.JPG">

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05-29-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell"You can rest assured when you bid in my auctions that we will do our best to disclose everything we know regarding card alteration"--Doug Allen Even when its you that is doing the altering????" Funny Doug--I read the Mastronet catalogues yet I cannot remember once reading the statement--"we took a crease out of this card" yet you admit openly that you do this. Which is it? Jim

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05-29-2007, 04:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHey Jim- welcome back. How are things going?

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05-29-2007, 04:24 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethGood to see you. It's a definitional thing I think -- Doug has posted that he doesn't think taking out a light crease that does not break the surface is an "alteration," thus no need to disclose it. As I recall when this subject was last discussed in depth, Doug had expressed the view that he thought the grading companies more or less shared the views expressed in the portion of the post I cut and pasted yesterday, and he indicated he would follow up with them, but I don't recall that we ever heard back from PSA.

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05-29-2007, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, I'm sure Doug would say that this is Mastro's new new new policy going forward. I hadn't seen any mention of their card alterations in the online preview of the June Collector's auction. Maybe the new policy will kick in for the August auction. Or the 08 auctions. Or the later ones. Or the ones after that.

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05-29-2007, 04:29 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHey Barry, I am doing very well thanks--son graduates from college next week and my daughter from high school the week after that. Life is great. How are you? I was alerted by a hobby friend to what Doug was saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but I consider it the ultimate in hypocracy to first admit that you take creases out of cards and then say you will disclose all alterations with a straight face. I am still madly searching through my catalogues looking for where Mastronet says this was a psa 4 but we broke it out of the case, took the crease out, and now it is a psa 8-- Jim

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05-29-2007, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI assume you are being facetious but to be fair, at least Doug is being consistent -- he has stated his views on what they regard as alterations and what they regard as simply "preparation" that presumably does not need to be disclosed. Now some of us may disagree with the definitions, but at least we know what MIGHT have happened to any card we are considering buying. With others you don't even know that -- except perhaps with REA that says they don't do ANYTHING to prepare cards for submission.

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05-29-2007, 04:35 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter and Jeff, Okay--here is an example. I have a 48 Leaf Joe DiMaggio psa 4 that in my opinion is a psa 9 except that it has a very small surface crease in the picture of the card. I have been told by a leading national dealer that there is little question that Mastronet could take the crease out of the card and it his opinion that the card would grade a psa 9 and at worse an 8. So if I gave this card to Mastronet and asked them to take out the wrinkle, regrade it, have a nice conversation with Reza, and put it in there latest auction do you really think Mastronet would disclose the history of this card. I would add that I would consider it unethical to do what I described and what Doug Allen has already admitted to. Jim

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05-29-2007, 04:39 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, all anyone wants is for Mastro to disclose what - if anything - they did to the cards in their auction. Nothing more, nothing less.

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05-29-2007, 04:39 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethWell Doug has said taking out a surface crease or wrinkle is acceptable, so while he can speak for himself, of course, my interpretation of his remarks is that that would be acceptable and not disclosable. Now the only "wrinkle" (HAHA) is the prior PSA grade so I don't know if that would change anything. Presumably not, since I would think at least some percentage of the cards they submit are crack outs and I don't think I have ever seen a grading history disclosed.

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05-29-2007, 04:42 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, That is my recollection to--Doug said he would get back to us after hearing from SGC and PSA. I will admit to not following the posts on Net54 too closely recently but I do not recall seeing Doug disclose whether his firm's policy will change based upon his discussions with Dave Forman and Joe Orlando. When I asked Doug this question at the collectors dinner in nyc a while back I got a firm "no comment". Anybody wonder anymore what Rob Lifson is referring to in his recent letters? Jim

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05-29-2007, 04:43 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethJeff, I hear you, but I am guessing that they see a very successful business model and very little impact to the bottom line from not making these sorts of disclosures, so why WOULD they start disclosing grading histories and bumps and identifying every pressed down corner etc.?

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05-29-2007, 04:44 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, You think someone who would drop $40,000-$50,000 on a 48 Leaf DiMaggio psa 9 would care that it used to be in a psa 4 holder with a light surface crease. Doug seems to be saying no--I think he is openly deceiving the buyer by not doing so. Jim

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05-29-2007, 04:48 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, of course Doug won't provide full disclosure because that would cost Mastro money - and that's all this is about. Same with Doug coming onto the board and 'communicating' with us - it's a PR move solely - and doesn't really provide any useful information. Very simple: disclose what, if anything, done to the cards. Period.

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05-29-2007, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthHi Jim, Congratulations on the graduations. In the case of your 48 Leaf card, there are very few dealer who might not attempt to remove the wrinkle (or pay someone to do it). In fact I know many collectors who would make the same effort and many of the balance wouldn't do it because they couldn't not because they are purists. I completely understand and respect your opinion on this subject but were Mastro be able to get your Leaf card into an 8 or a 9, like Peter said, it would not be disclosed as it would be one of those undetectable enhancements that cards of all grades ROUTINELY undergo, which Doug, in accordance with the grading companies, does not feel is an alteration. Best, Greg

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05-29-2007, 04:53 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaIf you can't tell and never will be able to tell if an alteration has occurred then why does it matter?

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05-29-2007, 04:59 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethDan, does that mean it is ethically OK to alter Jim's card if I can do it really well (as opposed to less well where it would be detected)? There is a certain logic to your argument, but I am troubled where it leads.

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05-29-2007, 05:03 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellGreg, As always I appreciate your opinions. I agree many dealers would not attempt this but Doug has admitted he would and you know many others who would do this. I understand this goes on all the time--maybe I should join the dark side. Dan--so you are saying that as long as you can get it past the grading company or the unsuspecting buyer nothing wrong with taking the creases out of cards? Jim

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05-29-2007, 05:07 PM

Posted By: Steve MurrayI think what Dan is saying is: "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a noise".

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05-29-2007, 05:08 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaNo, I firmly believe it is unethical to alter cards by taking out creases, adding color, et cetera because it is frowned upon in the card hobby. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here. Jim has an impressive collection of PSA8's that even he concedes some may have been altered. I just don't think it's worth getting too upset thinking about because it is undetectable and at this point too late to do anything about. At some point if taking out creases or other alterations become completely undetectable then alterations are going to have to become an acceptable part of the hobby....perhaps it already is. As long as higher $$$'s are paid for the higher number then you will ALWAYS have people altering cards. You can't protect them all. I know that sounds a little like rambling so if you need any clarification I'm sure Joann can translate for me. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-29-2007, 05:25 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, Yes--I have altered PSA cards. Which ones they are I have no idea. Virtually everyone who owns PSA cards has some altered in my opinion. Unless someone like Only Child comes in who knows as much if not more than most top graders, it will remain unknown to most. I would like to fix things from here Dan. We cannot go back and change history but if the hobby could agree on a set of standards and be vigilant about publicizing and getting rid of the crooks it would be a good start. May be wishful thinking though. From what I can see Mastronet is more part of the problem than part of the solution. Jim

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05-29-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, I think the genie is out of the bottle. As long as it's undetectable it is going to go on. That doesn't make it right or ethical, but this hobby is big, and the dollars are even bigger so it will continue unabated until such time our hobby goes the way of Beanie Babies.

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05-29-2007, 05:46 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDan, There is only one point I would differ with you on and that is to the highly trained person--like Only Child, Baker, Dave's top graders--it is detectable. I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff. Jim

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05-29-2007, 05:52 PM

Posted By: JoannSorry Dan - no translations from me this time. Too much treacherous ground in this thread. I'll stick with the easy stuff! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Joann

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05-29-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I've always said that the onus falls squarely on the graders, to be as diligent as they possibly can and to be completely detached from any influence any of the major auction houses may have on them. When and if we reach that level, the number of altered cards in holders will approach zero.

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05-29-2007, 06:27 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I get your point and in an ideal world thats fine but certain card doctors know more than the graders. Jim

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05-29-2007, 06:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's a give and take battle. The graders and the trimmers are each building better mousetraps, to snare the other guy!

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05-29-2007, 09:22 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanNothing will ever change because it is in the auction house's interests to sell higher graded cards. PSA doesn't care because their registry has caused the great majority of cards to go to PSA. Just follow the dollar, there's your answer.

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05-29-2007, 09:41 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Jim- Your statement "I have altered PSA cards" could be taken two ways. I'm assuming that means you possess them, as opposed to you have altered them yourself. Also, taking Jeff's last point a step further- it seems like the whole dialog about "what is alteration," etc. is driven by the high-grade orgy. If all collectors were pedestrian, this wouldn't be an issue!

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05-29-2007, 09:50 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenSorry I missed all the fireworks....involved in family Memorial Day festivities. Seems strange to call them festivities but basically spent the day with the wife and kids. Have a nephew that is a Ranger in Iraq so my thoughts go out to him today. Anyways, Jim I would be happy to sell your 48 DiMaggio in a PSA 4 holder. I am sure dealers that believed they could get the crease out would bid accordingly. As indicated earlier I have notified all employees that process cards that any and all alterations that we know of need to be disclosed in the write-up. Just last auction we disclosed that a T206 Plank was restored. If you buy a card in my auction and find a card was altered and this was not disclosed bring it to my attention and I will issue and immediate and full refund...regardless of whether a card grading company noted it or not. Two more cases in point. After it being pointed out on this forum I offered a full refund for a PSA8 Walter Johnson that I was not comfortable selling. Same with a rare back Elberfeld card (I think it was Broad Leaf 460). I don't hide behind grading services and I am not hiding from my customers. I am not sure why you choose to beat up on me in this forum. I don't know what else I can do. Sincerely, Doug Allen President Mastro Auctions

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05-29-2007, 09:57 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDoug -- third base! All we are asking is can Mastro simply state in its descriptions whether or not ANYTHING has been done to the card by Mastro? You keep saying you'll note alterations - but some of us don't define 'alteration' as narrowly as Mastro does.

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05-29-2007, 10:05 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJeff, it ain't going to happen. When the difference between a 7 and an 8 means thousands of dollars the undetectable alterations are going to continue. What do they have to gain by mentioning the alteration when they are offering full money back guarantees? 99.9% of collectors will never catch the alteration.

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05-29-2007, 10:09 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWell, integrity for one. But I agree, Dan. I'm just not certain how many more ways I can say the same thing and have Doug claim (again) that he is simply being attacked without answering my question.

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05-29-2007, 11:05 PM

Posted By: Sean CIf you were referring to lot 1777, it would have been hard not to admit it, since the Plank card was in a PSA case labeled Authentic - Altered . What we as customers are requesting is that Mastro Auctions properly identify any and all restoration work (from wax stain removal and "spooning" creases to power erasing and paper addition) performed by Mastro employees or outside sources hired by Mastro on any item listed in one of your catalogs as to what work was performed on it. (Edited to remove redundancy)

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05-30-2007, 04:37 AM

Posted By: Jim CrandellDoug, You are smarter than that. You know what you can do and that is come clean. What do Dave and Joe say about your practice of taking creases out of the card. You said you would stop I believe if they disapproved. I think you also said you would report back to us which you haven't. Yet you have gone silent and all we hear is no comment. That hardly inspires confidence over what you are doing to the cards that are given to you. Jim

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05-30-2007, 05:26 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them? Can't consignor and auction house agree to that based on pre-established company policy? If a card has a bent corner, that's the way you send it in. If it has a wrinkle, it is submitted with a wrinkle. Do consignors send material in because they assume it will be made better by the auction house? And I'm not even singling out Mastro or any one in particular, I'm just talking about a general policy. I send cards in for consignors as a service. That is my sole responsbility. I've never told a consignor I will get you a better grade, or anything to that effect. And that's the way it should be across the board.

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05-30-2007, 06:37 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethSuppose Jim wanted to maximize the value of his DiMaggio. Suppose it had a surface wrinkle that did not break the surface and in your expert judgment Doug it could be safely removed and not detected. Would Mastro Auctions do that for Jim and then resubmit the card? And if so would they disclose in the auction that it had been a PSA 4 earlier but a wrinkle had been removed? I think that is what people want to know and understand.

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05-30-2007, 06:57 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Doug already has stated that Mastronet would remove these. If he states differently here it is a change in policy by Mastronet. Their prior policy has been to take them out and not disclose this in the auction. If this is wrong I challenge anyone to find a description where it says a crease has been taken out of the card. Jim

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05-30-2007, 07:35 AM

Posted By: Frank EvanovBarry: "Wouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them?" Every company in business looks to maximize earnings....easier and cleaner? yes.... business smart? no! Dan, concerning "undetectable alterations"... over the years I have seen wrinkles, stains and creases re-appear in high-end holders, so there is the time factor as well. Jim...good to see you back! Frank

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05-30-2007, 07:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateFrank- I look to maximize earnings too...and if I decided to rob a bank, my net income would increase considerably.

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05-30-2007, 10:22 AM

Posted By: Cobby33So long as there are folks who will pay BIG $$ for high-grade material, these practices will continue, it's that simple. Once the demand for these cards decrease (due to lack of confidence on the restoration/grading processes, or whatever), these processes will stop, as there will be no incentive to do so. Right now, the guidelines are so vague, that people can make these "alterations" with a straight face.

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05-30-2007, 10:40 AM

Posted By: warshawlawPerhaps the world has tilted off its axis <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> "I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff." That is exactly what casinos do--they hire card counters, mechanics and cheats to work the eye in the sky to look for other cheats. Even the FBI does--anyone seen "Catch Me If You Can"? No one knows the anatomy of cheating better than a qualified cheater in the same field.

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05-30-2007, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanYou guys aren't getting it: PSA, et al. will never spend extra money to detect trimming and alterations unless they are SURE it will generate more income for them. And until they see a drop in revenue due to their failure to detect trimming and alterations, business as usual will be the theme.

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05-30-2007, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaIf PSA put a card doctor on staff to detect alterations their business would drop off signifigantly.

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05-30-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff- if any kind of big scandal breaks and PSA is found to be a participant in any number of unethical or unprofessional practices (and I could cite many examples) their business is not going to be worth all that much. They need to balance revenue with offering the proper service, and at the same time to stay squeaky clean. It can't be the wild west in Newport Beach. That won't last long, and it will eventually catch up with them.

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05-30-2007, 11:39 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSomehow I don't think PSA is all that concerned about scandal, etc. Their untoward relationship with Memory Lane is case in point.

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05-30-2007, 11:39 AM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierNot all inclusive but here are cards deemed un-gradeable by PSA (taken from their site). Unless they plan to change the rules, this should eliminate all the the arguement if wrinkle / crease removal is considered altering. It's in black in white on PSA's card grading standards page. Please note item N-5. ____________________ NO GRADE DEFINITIONS If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons. N-1 Evidence of Trimming - When a card’s edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look. N-2 Evidence of Restoration - When a card’s paper stock is built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners. N-3 Evidence of Recoloration - Where a card’s color has been artificially improved. N-4 Questionable Authenticity - This is the term used when a card is counterfeit. N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced. _______________________ Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade? Kevin Saucier

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05-30-2007, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethYou are right, and this was pointed out to Doug when the topic was raised last time by Jim C. I don't recall his response, if he in fact made one.

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05-30-2007, 11:57 AM

Posted By: barrysloatePSA is worried about their bottom line. A scandal has an amazing ability to compromise that bottom line (only speaking hypothetically, of course).

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05-30-2007, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethMy review of the prior thread suggests there was no direct response to the apparent conflict between item N-5 and Mastro Auctions' definition of acceptable "preparation" that need not be disclosed -- although I read it relatively quickly just now. Perhaps we can get some clarification this time around?

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05-30-2007, 12:01 PM

Posted By: leonYou said "Is it considered altering when it can't be detected. IMO it is when you say your doing it. Why don't we just call a spade a spade?" So does that mean if someone doesn't say anything and they are altering a card it's ok? For the record I still don't have a problem with the first tier "restoration" that Dave Forman spoke about on the board before. If I recall correctly he wouldn't endorse any of it but said if they can't detect it....well, they can't detect it...and he considered the first tier much less offensive then the 2nd or 3rd tiers...which everyone feels is wrong....regards

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05-30-2007, 12:22 PM

Posted By: Sean CI don't care whether it's an attempt to remove a wrinkle or wholesale whitening of a card: to do so and offer it for sale without proper disclosure is wrong. While altered cards have a place in the market, they just need to be properly identified as such.

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05-30-2007, 12:51 PM

Posted By: barrysloateOf course you can sometimes sell a card that has been altered but you are not aware of it. Then if the crease magically reappears down the road you can get blamed for it too.

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05-30-2007, 01:00 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierHere is SGC's partial take on the subject (again, taken from their site). SGC Rejection Codes: Code Description Tag A Altered ALT B Bleached BLE C Color Added COL E Power Erased ERA G Minimum Graded Not Met MIN L Too Large to Holder (Oversized) LRG N Miscut MIS M Cannot/Do Not Grade NO P Pressed PRS ____________ For the record, my personal opinion on what is or is not acceptable is irrelevant. I'm just showing what the written standards are verses what is being openly admitted. Kudo’s to Doug for saying what is being done. For what it's worth I really enjoy the flamboyant auction descriptions. I find them very entertaining and try to read each one regardless of what is being sold. Oh...hey there Jim! Kevin Saucier

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05-30-2007, 01:16 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanKevin, what is being done by Doug? Maybe I missed something. For the umpteenth time, all we want to know is will Mastro disclose if they have done any work -- any work at all -- on a card after receiving it from a consignor and prior to sale in their auctions? Now I know Doug will come back and try to define 'work' for us.

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05-30-2007, 01:19 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorGrading companies (at least SGC) will enforce the community standard for pre-war card review. If you want to change the standard, then your beef is with your favorite grading company. If the standard is an attempt to enforce a moral code of undetectable crimes, then you have gotten much further than any civilized society I am aware of in terms of its statutory laws. If you stick with the detectable crimes, supported by a money-backed guarantee, that's as good as it will ever get -- even if you create a collector's society of purity police. Because, at the end of the day, the purity police will have to convince the grading company that its standards need to change; and the only standards that will be enforceable with any level of consistency will be those alterations that are detectable with any level of consistency. The problem I have with these kinds of threads is that the temptation is to rehash all of the previous polls and debates about what the community standard is and should be for various forms of card doctoring -- from gunk removal and erasing pencil marks to spooning wrinkles, recoloring and adding paper, the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs.

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05-30-2007, 01:20 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHey Kevin(my hero), How can you give Kudos to Mastronet for openly admitting to altering cards and trying to get them graded by PSA in direct violation of PSAs standards? It is of course preferable if Mastronet would cease and desist from altering cards at all but given the choice of taking creases out of cards and not telling anyone(their prior practice) and taking creases out and disclosing it, I would take the latter course every time. Jim

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05-30-2007, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Kevin SaucierKudo's was only given because he has the guts to say it in an open forum. <"What is being done by Doug?"> Just using Doug as a reference link to Mastronet. <"the views of the community are not uniform and the passions for and against such practices are widespread and heartfelt. It is absolutely vital to understand the standards applied by your favorite grading company to the cards it reviews. If you are uncomfortable, then you need either a new grading company or to have your grading company change its standards to meet your needs."> Well said!

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05-30-2007, 01:35 PM

Posted By: shanefor coming on these boards to discuss ideas and changes with all of us. I for one really like the descriptive writings and appreciate a more detailed listing of conditions for the cards up for auction. I have bought many items from you over the past 4 years and think that your guys have done an excellent job. Thanks again for coming on Network54. Shane Leonard

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05-30-2007, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanKevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?

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05-30-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"Kevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?" Not when the definition of permissible alteration is not uniform. It is better when there is no universally accepted standard of all alterations to disclose what alterations were done and let the prospective buyers decide if they care than an SGC 60 was once glued in a scrapbook. And Doug most certainly deserves credit for discussing these issues in a public forum, especially when these issues have passionate advocates from numerous and various conflicting perspectives.

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05-30-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: leonMaybe this is the wrong hobby for you? It's sort of like saying....ok, do you promise never to go 56mph in a 55mph zone again? And yes, to me, it's that amount of an issue with stuff that can't be seen or detected...and I am not talking about removing major creases...I am talking about insignificant crap on a card being taken off so it looks better...Again, I suggest you find a different hobby if you thing it's ever going to be fully disclosed...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected ><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....best regards

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05-30-2007, 02:14 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethPaul, I agree, the very problem arises from the lack of consensus as to definition. But I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not. EDITED TO ADD It seems to me if that is the case, then pressing out a wrinkle, trying to get PSA to grade it, and not disclosing it, could be considered deceptive.

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05-30-2007, 02:20 PM

Posted By: Sean CDo you think it's proper for an auction company to work on or perform an alteration on a card, then not disclose it to potential bidders?

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05-30-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not." I think that is a fair question, but I would like to know more about the specific processes that are used to press wrinkles. Spooning a card is one thing (in my own opinion, bad and easily detectable), but soaking gunk off the back of a card and then pressing it in the middle of a dictionary to keep it from warping during the drying process is another. The latter can sometimes moderately improve the appearance of wrinkles -- and would be undetectable and not enforceable by PSA, notwithstanding their general statements against it. Again, I think questions should be asked with specific examples in mind. But, to me, if you buy an SGC graded card in a Mastro auction, what Mastro did to the card before SGC got its hands on it is not particularly relevant to me; though Doug's money-backed guarantee is another arrow in the quiver (along with SGC's guarantee) of potential future restitution.

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05-30-2007, 02:26 PM

Posted By: shaneIt does take some serious stones to come on these boards to discuss your business practices, especially knowing that you are going to get *******s, lawyers, judges, deadbeats and bottom feeders grilling you. Doug has come out and said what Mastro believes and does. If you got a problem, don't bid in their auctions. Pressing down a wrinkle is something that is going to be done for centuries to come. You can't stop it and you can't detect it. Actually, you can detect it if you do it wrong and mash the card with too much pressure.

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05-30-2007, 02:29 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes. I have seen Cracker Jacks warp significantly inside their slabs -- obviously even though they may have "dried" flat they did not retain their shape. I have seen corner flips that either reappeared or were missed the first time -- the latter I consider unlikely. I have also seen wrinkles on cards graded 7 or higher although who can say if they reappeared or just were missed during the grading process -- including a PSA 7 T205 Matty that had prominent wrinkles if you held it at the right angle.

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05-30-2007, 02:34 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position.

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05-30-2007, 02:35 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanIf it were only pressing down a corner. What about that Keeler cabinet?

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05-30-2007, 02:35 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"I continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes." I, of course, mean undetectable at the time of grading. As for future detectability, that's the beauty of SGC's (and now Mastro's) money backed guarantee. If you show them an SGC 60 with a wrinkle that should've been a 40, they will comp you the difference. So, you are protected against that initially undetectable wrinkle.

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05-30-2007, 02:36 PM

Posted By: leonI have stated my answer several times. I DON'T have a problem with first level restorations...ie, gunk removal, pencil removal, very slight surface wrinkle removal etc. I don't care if they do it and I don't care if they tell me... Does that answer your question? (I am sure you disagree but I tried to be specific and answer honestly) thanks leon

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05-30-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethPaul, that's beautiful (coming from Mastro), we guarantee the permanence of our "improvements."

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05-30-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"I would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position." You are missing the point and confusing the issue. The point is not what the MORAL standard SHOULD be. The point is what the enforceable, gradeable standard CAN CONSISTENTLY be. They can say whatever they want to say about moral standards, but those are quite irrelevant.

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05-30-2007, 02:39 PM

Posted By: leonI personally think it was a mistake to do the things that were done to the Keeler card and not disclose it. Mistakes happen...I think that was one of the things that started this whole debate. For those that haven't made a mistake please step forward (as everyone except the guy on the end takes one step back <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) regards

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05-30-2007, 02:41 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI am glad morals are irrelevant. That is refreshing. I don't mean to be flip, I know what you are saying Paul and we have had that discussion before. But it is disturbing to hear it stated so bluntly.

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05-30-2007, 02:41 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDoug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?" That's pretty much what all of this boils down to right now, and I'd love to know the answer too. I don't care about a money back policy, etc. I, and others, want a clear and concise answer to this question. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 02:42 PM

Posted By: Sean CI understand that you are ok with "1st tier" alterations. My question asks if you are ok with auction houses not disclosing to their potential bidders that such alterations (or worse) have been performed on the item being offered for sale.

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05-30-2007, 02:50 PM

Posted By: leonYou asked 2 questions and I have 2 different answers. Had you not put in (worse) then I would have had one answer...but putting that in I have another. Let me try this. I don't care if anyone tells me they have done an undectable, 1st tier, alteration to a card I am buying. If they do worse then yes, I do want to know. Jay B- When did Doug ever say they spoon out cards? Also, when was the last time you started a good, positive, thread on this board. If you truly want to make it better then why don't you contribute positive stuff and new, good threads? I am not trying to be mean or anything and think you act very civil....just a couple questions. Also, thanks for the help on the hijacking stuff...I tend to lean your way on my feelings but don't think it's a major problem...actually I think it's very minor but to each their own.... regards leon

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05-30-2007, 02:51 PM

Posted By: jay behrensMorals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman. They get in the way and keep me from doing those despicable things you need to do in order to succeed. So I'm content to live the life I do, knowing that I try to live an ethical life, in all aspects of my life, not just when it's convenient or won't get in the way of making me more money. The world would be a much better place if everyone lived this way, but sadly, money makes people do stupid things. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 02:53 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJay and Jeff have hit the nail right on the head. Doug comes on the board and postures and refuses to answer the legitimate questions. He obviously knows what PSA standards are as he has submitted more cards to them than any other grading service yet he admits to taking creases out of cards to presumably sneak them by PSA, thus violating their standards with out disclosing publicly what he or his employees have done to the cards. Given what Rob Lifson has said and Doug's outright refusal to discuss what he has already admitted to, I am surprised that more collectors aren't up in arms about this. I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions. Jim

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05-30-2007, 03:04 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorYou call it blunt, I call it keeping it simple. For me, the issue is always one of "How am I personally harmed by purchasing one of these cards?" The answer will always be that the value will go down if the alteration is detected. Thus, I want to know that I will get the difference in the price I paid and the ultimate value back from either Mastro (who sold it) or SGC (who graded it). Since they both will give me my value back, there is no harm to me economically or otherwise. Morality is not irrelevant. When it comes to identifying a universal standard of card grading, we should stick to identifying provable facts before we even begin to contemplate how everyone should feel about those facts. But, to be sure, morality is already at play in card grading. Indeed, the universal distaste for recoloring cards or adding paper to cards is based in moralilty. And though I could write a thesis about "Morality in Card Grading," I'd rather just make sure that I bought what I thought I bought -- and if not then I can have a do-over.

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05-30-2007, 03:05 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions." Mastro's got better cards... (-:

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05-30-2007, 03:07 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"Morals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman." Do you really believe that you cannot be morally and ethically sound AND be a good businessman who makes lots of money?

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05-30-2007, 03:09 PM

Posted By: RichardWhen did "surface wrinkle removal" become a first tier alteration / restoration? I always thought that pressing out a wrinkle is more of a severe alteration than, say, pencil erasing.

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05-30-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellRichard, Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise. I understand it is harder for pre-war collectors to boycott Mastro's autions than Memory Lane as they have much more prewar merchandise. Also many on this board consign to Mastro so they are truly torn--not wanting to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

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05-30-2007, 03:23 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise." No one is "making" him think otherwise. Leon is expressing his opinion, as you are expressing yours. The fact that there are so many opinions on these issues is what makes them so provocative.

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05-30-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul nailed it -- Mastro has better cards: that's why anyone deals with them. And while Jay can be a curmudgeon I honestly don't think he's been overly harsh on Doug. And I know it's self-serving but I haven't either. I spend a lot of cash with Mastro -- am I not entitled to a single freaking answer to a single freaking question? Or am I just some schmuck who is here to be fleeced? What other business other than the auction business would a consumer be ignored and BSed as much?

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05-30-2007, 03:27 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI've had 4 different businesses. One just never took off, the other 3 could have done really well but I lacked, or I should say, had to strong of ethics, to do the things necessary in order to take the business to the next level. Unlike many people, I lack to ability to stab my mother in back to make a buck. Yes, there are people that have been a success holding to strong morals and ethics, but they are the absolute exception and I doubt anyone would say that they should be used as a business model if you want to be successful in today's business climate. Finding a businessman who's morals and ethics are the same in his personal life and business is like trying to find a politician that isn't in someone's pocket. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 03:32 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, Doug even said, we are not Mastro's target audience and are not the major spenders in Mastro's auctions. That should tell you everything right there. He will give us lip service, but he will do what he needs to do to keep increasing revenue of those he feel are the truly big spenders, while hoping not to offend enough of us that lost business from people he might alienate here is less than increased revenues from what he considers his main source. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 03:34 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethYou are a schmuck here to be fleeced. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-30-2007, 03:42 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanIf Dan can please find Pink Floyd's "Sheep" in video form and post it here I would be appreciative.

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05-30-2007, 03:43 PM

Posted By: shane' Jay writes: "Doug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?" He has spoken this loud and clear Jay. He will continue with pressing out wrinkles and he will run his auction his way and not yours. He feels that any alteration or pressing of cards is Mastro's business. Does this mean that you will not bid since he will not change his business practice to satisfy you or anyone else? It is pretty obvious that his stance is not going to change. How about yours?

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05-30-2007, 03:46 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorEthics and morals are really driven by context and a person's individual background and experience. I don't know what you did (or didn't do) in your business situations, but I would bet that if you laid out for the Board the 3 different ethical crossroads that failed each of your 3 businesses, that each of our values and ethics would contribute to numerous different responses as to whether you handled each of those situations ethically and/or properly. If not, then I suspect your ethical crossroads were unique to your circumstances, since I do not think everyone would regularly reach a crossroad in business where they had to stab their mother in the back to succeed -- let alone three times. (N.B. No reference to anyone's specific mother and/or other family member is meant, either explicitly or implicitly; for reference-sake "mommy" can mean the woman or female otherwise giving birth to a generic widget or animal other than human.)

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05-30-2007, 03:48 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanShane, how can Mastro's alteration of cards by methods that are frowned upon by PSA only be considered "Mastro's business"? Are we not buying their cards?

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05-30-2007, 03:51 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethShane you may be right this is all tilting at windmills, but as Auden wrote, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie."

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05-30-2007, 03:52 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzMastro should disclose the fact of each card it has either submitted or resubmitted for grading, and if the latter, the before and after grades should be noted. The fact that the card was submitted or resubmitted by the auction house is information I believe bidders would use in factoring their bids. This in and of itself is neutral, and we don't have to get into what might have been done to the card (although I would certainly want to know). Also, if any card submitted by the house has been rejected, such fact should be disclosed if the card is going to be sold raw. I would like to know from Doug whether this will be done and if not, why not.

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05-30-2007, 03:53 PM

Posted By: jay behrensShane, Doug HAS NOT stated specifically what will or will not be disclosed. That is what we want to know. What he has stated is that he will disclose all alterations they know about. They do not considered spooning, and some other things, to be alterations, but others do. Many of us want to know if spooning and other things they don't consider alterations, will be disclosed. so far, it's been more like hearing from the oracle of Delphi where the king is told an empire will be greatly expanded. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 03:58 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethJay you are so wrong my friend, they will disclose alterations. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-30-2007, 04:56 PM

Posted By: David VarghaEvery person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected Gotta wholeheartedly disagree with that analysis. That's like saying it's the Fed's fault that counterfeit bills are in circulation. Sorry, but the perp is the primary problem. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-30-2007, 05:27 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthI don't care what representatives of PSA, SGC or GAI say on their web pages, in writing on on telephone calls. They are all grading cards daily, by the dozens, which have had creases/wrinkles removed. While they may not actively condone this process, they are either unable or unqualified to detect it. When a card has been pressed to the point where it has been flattened, the card will be rejected and garner the rejection codes presented above for being pressed or altered. The grading companies say/write one thing and they practice another either due to incompetence or because it is impractical for them to be expected to catch something that is not there. When a hairline wrinkle is removed, it is undetectable and will not be coming back. I understand Jeff's interest in having full disclosure on methods used to prepare or repair a card but I don't see that forthcoming from dealers. This is a hobby reality not exclusive to Mastro. Greg

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05-30-2007, 05:31 PM

Posted By: Cobby33This sort of activity goes on in almost any industry where there is a quick flip for a quick profit. Why is anybody surprised that it has happened, continues to happen and will always happen- with that landscape?

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05-30-2007, 05:34 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIf a company says it identifies altered cards, it has to be able identify altered cards. If it is their claim, it's their claim.

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05-30-2007, 05:44 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGreg, I agree. No one is claiming it is a Mastro-centric problem. Doug's the only one that comes out here, though, and attempts to engage us on the issue without engaging us at all. As I've said before, this is what you get with an unregulated industry.

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05-30-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: Cobby33"...this is what you get with an unregulated industry." BINGO!

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05-30-2007, 06:15 PM

Posted By: Brian WeisnerYes, that's just what we need more Regulation... NOT... The collectors/market forces regulate this hobby and I prefer that to any new Bureaucracy run by the same type of people who run the UN. Be well Brian

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05-30-2007, 06:18 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovDoug is probably having second thoughts...again...about coming on here and exposing himself to criticism. That said, I would like him to address his company's policy in regard to PSA's N5 category: [N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.] Frank

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05-30-2007, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Kenny ColeJeff, As a lawyer, I suggest that the fact that you can't get an answer to your question answers your question. It ain't gonna happen. 'Nuff said. Best, Kenny Cole

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05-30-2007, 07:36 PM

Posted By: leonSince you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ......

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05-30-2007, 07:48 PM

Posted By: jay behrensAnd we all witnessed what happened when electric power was deregulated in CA. Enron happened. This goes back to my point about people having one set of morals and ethics for their personal life and one for their business life. In a utopia, no regulations would be just fine, but sadly, people's greed usually trumps their morals and ethics, so we need to have regulations in place to try and limit the lack of ethics and morality when it comes to business and money. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 07:48 PM

Posted By: Scott Elkins...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected >....best regards First of all, I have been collecting since 1978. I think most of us "old timers" in the Hobby will agree when I state that altering cards was not a big problem until Copeland started paying outrageous amounts at the time for NM cards. This is when some dealers with $$$ in their eyes started trimming cards to sell to Copeland (and, as many of us old timers know - Bill Mastro was acquiring a lot of these cards for Copeland)! Also, you want us to attack the grading companies and NOT Mastro Inc. and Doug Allen, after Doug admitted to altering cards before sending them to grading companies. Well, this is assinine! This would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal! Oh, you killed someone - well, it is the police department's fault for not catching you. You are OK in my book, it is the police who we should blame. Common - use a little common sense! I do agree with one thing Leon stated - I also collect lower grade cards. That is one reason I still win lots from Mastro Inc. I will never consign with them again, and there are definitely cards in their auctions I would NOT bid on. However, it is like I told some people new to the Hobby - if you are going to bid on a lot in a Mastro auction and don't really know what to look for in regards to restoration or trimming, simply bid on SGC 40's and below. Do NOT bid on ungraded lots in their auctions nor PSA graded cards - especially high grades! As for autographs and game mem. - don't touch it with a ten foot pole!

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05-30-2007, 07:58 PM

Posted By: shane leonardJeff, We are buying cards from Mastro, who brings to us the collector, collections that are not circulated on the open market. Most all of the cards that are raw in these lots are tampered free by card doctors. A HIGH percentage of those that are graded by these auction houses have performed some sort of work to them. (flatened corner, wax wipped off the front, wrinkle pressed out) I am having a hard time believing that this is really that much of an issue for the industry. It has been around for many years even before grading. It is an exceptable practice that will continue for much longer than it has existed. The question to those that have a problem with this is what hobby are you going to next? Shane

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05-30-2007, 08:02 PM

Posted By: leonAnd all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless. I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways... Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care

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05-30-2007, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Cobby33For those of us/you who don't want some kind of "regulation" or monitoring of these practices, then they will continue. They'll continue without regulation/monitoring, but to a greater extent. The only real solution here is to boycott. Is anybody prepared to do that?

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05-30-2007, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsAnd all of this is coming from a guy who thinks all Wagners with Piedmont backs are 1950's reprints. Priceless. I don't disagree with you about when the trimming for dollars probably started. Since I wasn't in the hobby 25 years ago I don't know so will give you that one. BTW, isn't this the board that protects Mastro and won't let negative things be said about them? You can't have it both ways... Personally I don't have a problem with what Doug has said they might do to cards...and it's not "spooning" out creases. I don't have an issue with the 1st tier alterations like putting a corner down, erasing a light mark (or heavy one if the damn thing will come off) or any number of other very minor, superficial things. You do....we can easily agree to have a different opinion.....take care As I stated today on the website Jay and I created today - All the Piedmont Wagners are cut from sheets and are either 1950's reprints or cut from period sheets. Personally, I believe that most of these did come from the sheets printed up in the 1950's that Mr. Heitman even discussed on this board (but, I guess you know more about T206's than Bill Heitman to hear you tell it?). There are some facts about Piedmont Wagners you seem to forget while trying to make me look like an idiot! - 1) Piedmonts are MORE COMMON than Sweet Caporals - so why are there NOT more Piedmont Wagners than SC? 2) ALL Piedmont Wagners sold by these auction houses as real have been handcut and not factory cut. 3) There were Piedmont Wagners printed in the 1950's - I have seen a couple over the years and they looked damn good (they could have easily been passed off as real if the owners had not been honest). 4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's! BTW - This is not the board that takes up for Mastro - YOU are the owner who takes up for Mastro! Just as you are doing in this thread. You might not have a problem with Mastro and Doug altering cards, but it CERTAINLY seems like others here have problems with it!

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05-30-2007, 08:19 PM

Posted By: jay behrensAnd racism existed for too. Did that make it right also? If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public. If it was acceptable, I'd think they would be running ads in Old Cardboard looking for more business. You can bury your head in the sand about the problem, but some of us are trying to make things better for everyone, including you. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 08:26 PM

Posted By: jay behrensLeon, Doug Allen/Mastro may take their licks here, but I think Scott's point is that you will defend Mastro to your dying breath. It makes some of us wonder just what it will take for you question Mastro's business practices. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 08:28 PM

Posted By: David VarghaSince you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ...... WTF was that all about and where did that come from? I was very respectful in my post. And you feel the need to slam me? Pathetic! DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-30-2007, 08:30 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsLeon, above you tell people to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Then, you state you have NO PROBLEM with Mastro's types of alterations. Why did you say to blame the grading companies, if there is nothing wrong with Mastro's alterations? Which is it. Should someone be blamed or not? Sounds to me like you are saying it is OK for Mastro Inc. and Doug to do this type of alteration. However, if we who disagree want to blame someone, we need to blame the grading companies for NOT catching Mastro's alterations. Again, this would be like blaming the police for not catching a criminal. These statements do not make any sense when put together. Also, the statement of blaming the grading companies does not make any sense on its own merit. I would simply like an answer to the statement regarding blaming the grading companies for not catching Mastro's alterations without bringing in my opinions on Piedmont Wagners (which really is going O/T with this thread - if you want to discuss Piedmont Wagners, and start a new thread, I will be happy to chime in a couple of times with my views - even though I have stated them more times than some people want to hear).

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05-30-2007, 08:33 PM

Posted By: leonI went back and read your post again. I think I took it the wrong way. My apology on that one....regards

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05-30-2007, 08:38 PM

Posted By: leonI don't have a problem with anything Doug has said they might do to a card. If grading companies can't catch something, because it's not there or can't be detected or seen, then so be it. Those are things I am not going to worry about. regards

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05-30-2007, 08:39 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenSorry guys my day job did not allow me to follow all of the dialogue today. To be honest I can't possible read it all. Let me make an additional comment based on what I have had a chance to read. Since my dialogue on this forum months ago I have met extensively with Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. As a result of this dialogue I totally understand what PSA and SGC consider alteration to cards and neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject. If I indicated there was a fleck of tobacco on a card and I flicked it off there would be 20 posts about how inappropriate this is. Everything I say here is taken totally out of context and blown out of proportion that is the reason I choose not to answer specific questions on this subject. Someone I respect contacted me today and told me to stay off this forum. They told me I can't win. I totally disagree. I believe the majority of the people who read this forum understand that I am trying to be honest and responsive. Everyone who knows me understands that I am a person who considers much of my business success to based on ethics and integrity.

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05-30-2007, 08:42 PM

Posted By: David VarghaFair enough. Apology accepted. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-30-2007, 08:47 PM

Posted By: E, DanielWeird how some collectors feel free to tell others to "go choose another past-time" if they voice issue with aspects of their chosen hobby.....as though you have divine truth and rationale to your beliefs, and everyone else can go jump. Seriously, aren't you just compulsive collectors - much like the rest of us, and you too are equally free to go find other pursuits? I'm yet to hear anybody actually suggest doctoring/altering cards is a GOOD thing, a POSITIVE for the hobby, so in effect you all have the same desire for un-fu@#*^ with cards as the rest of us. So why be an enabler? It's one thing to frown and shrug and give up, but another altogether to piss on efforts to keep cards from being doctored or honestly advertised. Isn't the very least we can expect as a hobby community to be truthfully advised when the truth is comfortably at hand? Just don't lie to us or pare down the facts to those you think we need or can understand. At least then we're not being played for suckers. Daniel

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05-30-2007, 08:51 PM

Posted By: leonSo if I erase a tiny pencil mark on the back of a card and don't tell you then I am playing you for a sucker? Otherwise, I agree with much of what you said...

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05-30-2007, 08:53 PM

Posted By: JimB"4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!" The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut. JimB

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05-30-2007, 09:02 PM

Posted By: E, DanielLeon, I'm fine with the pencil erasure if you tell me - not if you don't. And the reason it's important is because one man's art gum eraser is another man's laser cutter. The guy with the laser cutter doesn't REALLY feel bad about what he's doing because he sees a bunch of guys with erasers, and tubs full of floating cards that end up beneath encyclopedias, and gum/glue marks being magically removed, and corners un-flipped, and goes...."SEE, I'M NOT SUCH A BAD GUY, THEY'RE ALL DOING IT, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?". Kapish? Daniel

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05-30-2007, 09:11 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDoug, thanks for your response. Now that you are accepting PSA's and SGC's definition of alteration, it would be clear that Mastro has changed its policy of "pressing out wrinkles or creases." Presumably, you will continue to erase pencil marks as long as they are not "power erased." I'm sure you will correct me if I am misstating Mastro's new policy.

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05-30-2007, 09:17 PM

Posted By: leonI understand what you are saying but don't necessarily take the next step...that's all....I have never tried to get a crease/wrinkle out of a card or trimmed a card. ... I have however, removed gunk with a wet cue tip, erased pencil marks, and turned down a corner with saliva...I don't think that makes me a bad person.........others might disagree with my dastardly ways though..... I don't condone major card repair or any of the 2nd or 3rd level stuff that has been spoken of...again, I am not taking that next step..... and I still sleep well....

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05-30-2007, 09:19 PM

Posted By: leonMy limited understanding of powerwashing is more like erasing paper ie..trimming, than removing marks. I could be wrong though....

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05-30-2007, 09:22 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorThe difference in your dichotomy is that among the standards in the community, laser cutting is universally abhorred, while erasers and soaking are accepted on different scales. It is easier for you to live in a world of black and white collecting; but many of us are comfortable knowing what is taboo (i.e., trimming) and what is accepted by many (i.e., soaking gunk and erasing pencil marks). If you are trying to change the accepted community standards in this regard, you will find that you will have very little luck when faced with undetectable alterations -- because there is no way to police your applied moral values. I believe that the industry standard is essentially driven by alterations that can be consistenty detected. While there may be moral values on both extremes of that equation (puritans vs. laser cutting, color adders), most of us are somewhere in the middle. But I certainly respect your interest in keeping cards pure. If you ever find a way to ensure that better than SGC can, please let me (and them) know.

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05-30-2007, 09:36 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusIn all my many years of collecting I have heard of only two confirmed Piedmont Wagners (the PSA 8 and the one sold several years ago by REA (the Bray example?)) and rumors of a third (back in the 1970's). Yet you say that you have personally seen several that are confirmed 1950's reprints and they are so good that without proper disclosure they could pass as originals. Do you know the people who own these reprints, and if so, do you think they might be willing to share them with the rest of us? It seems to me that if they were not trying to fool anybody that they very well might for the benefit of all share what they have/know. Also, I'm curious to know your opinion as to whether these 1950's reprints were made from original plates or from duplicate plates. Finally, in another thread you mentioned that the PSA 8 Wagner exhibits certain characteristics that make you believe it is not a period card. What specifically are you referring to? In asking these questions I do not mean to belittle your views. Rather, until last year I had never even heard rumors of authentic-looking 1950's reprints, let alone an allegation that the PSA 8 example is not a period card, and I'm intrigued to obtain substantiation to what you claim.

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05-30-2007, 09:41 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier<"If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public."> I know of one who doesn't hide...but maybe should have. Questions: Who made up the terms 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier alterations and so on? Are these defined in a new grading standard? If pressing a wrinkle is considered altering, erasing is considered altering, trimming is considered altering and bleaching is considered altering then isn't there a single common denominator?

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05-30-2007, 09:58 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDoug, thanks for another response from Oracle of Delphi. Until you define what Mastro considers an alteration, your answer is unacceptable. You say you accept PSA and SGC's standards, but you also say that you have no problem with doing things that are patently against the standards of those companies. So, until you clarify that issue, absolutely nothing has been resolved. added: I guess I missed the memo about tiered alterations too. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 10:14 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, stop wasting your time. Doug is in full defensive mode (except when he is in offensive mode complaining about being picked on due to his failure to provide a clear response to a very simple inquiry).

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05-30-2007, 10:25 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI think this probably falls under my morals and ethics things I was talking about when it comes to business and money. Doug appears to be putting aside good ethics because he fears that the answer will cost Mastro money. Why else would he dodge such an easily answered questioned? If they want to continue to spoon cards, etc and openly admit to it, I don't have a problem with it, but don't tell us you are following PSA/SGC guidelines while doing it. You are doing either one or the other. You can't have it both ways. This all we really want to know. At least I do anyway. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-30-2007, 10:50 PM

Posted By: E, DanielHi Paul, I totally understand what you are saying. But I don't feel like this is some big moral crusade or other. It's simply about industry standards. I also don't agree in the least that there are common alterations that a 'vast' majority are in agreeance to, newly described as 'tier one' alterations (I actually kind of like that effort Leon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), and others that are in a completely different basket. I think it would run a lot closer to 50/50 in opinion on this board re erasing pencil and any other 'minor' doctoring - and that's among a small heavily enthused board of longer time collectors who have become somewhat hardened to the realities of alterations in the hobby. Move outside our niche group, and I would be surprised if numbers didn't run closer to 90/10 against ANY kind of card altering in the wider collecting community. Certainly undisclosed altering is frowned upon in all the other major antique collectibles. You don't buy a 350 year old french cabinet that's had it's doors replaced and get told buyer beware or it's just as good as original if you couldn't tell the difference yourself.....not when you're sold something in 'original unrestored' condition. If they step up to the plate honestly and completely detail any and all restorations they are aware of, and thus expect no more that 25% the price of an un-altered example, then everyone makes their decisions fairly. And to be honest with you (and myself) I'm under no delusions that setting a clean unambivalent standard against altering cards would end the practice, or that stocks would be erected and the tomatoes ripened in anticipation at nabbing the do-ers. However, its just like life. I tell my kid NEVER to hit his sister, even though I know he will on occasion when I'm not looking, and even when I am <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>. You just set the rules to be ones that seem right, and honest, and hope the majority go with the flow and do the right thing. As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden. That said, I'm with you. All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best. Daniel

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05-30-2007, 11:12 PM

Posted By: Scott Elkinson the other forum. You can e-mail me, but I promised Leon I would not post a link here and I am not doing it. Too much to keep typing over and over about my thoughts regarding your questions. You can probably even do a search on this forum and find some of my old posts about your questions. Leon, I like you as a person and have liked dealing with you. In fact, I just recently bought cards from you and I really like them - thanks again! However, I really don't like some of your Mastro defenses. Like I said, I have been collecting cards since 1978 and I have NEVER heard of these three levels of card altering you have devised! If I would have kept all the magazines, books, catalogs, etc. I have owned over the years regarding cards and our Hobby, I would need another home to store them in. An alteration is an alteration it would certainly seem from my experience. There is no need to try and develope a scale to justify what Mastro or someone else is doing is right.

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05-30-2007, 11:32 PM

Posted By: RC McKenziea vintage card arrived from ebay in the mail today that had slipped out of a toploader onto a piece of tape that was loosely closing the top of the sleeve. If I had ripped the tape off, about 1/8 of the top of the card would have gone to the circular file with the tape. I spent about 45 minutes carefully removing the card from the tape and toploader and managed to only cause paperloss above the border. I pumped my fist as I had saved the card from further significant damage. I'd say I was at level 1. lol, cheers

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05-31-2007, 04:11 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDoug, You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting the intelligence of board members the way you do. The way you dodge the questions with your self-serving responses is appalling.

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05-31-2007, 04:16 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSo Doug to reiterate the question that Jeff asked again and has been asked by numerous participants on this thread and which you continue to avoid,is it Mastronet's policy today to take creases out of the cards to "prepare" them for grading? How anyone now can be supportive of Doug coming on these boards when he refuses to answer the most basic of quesrtions is beyond me.

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05-31-2007, 04:36 AM

Posted By: Doug AllenI have answered the question. We do not alter cards that are submitted to grading services I am not dodging any questions and am not leaving any wiggle room. You all seem focused on crease removal so I will answer that specific question. PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this this is prohibited by my employees. I don't mind the inquiries. I have a great distaste for the sarcasm and in appropriate comments especially from Jay. "Oracle of Delphi", comments about profit over ethics. I think this is inappropriate for a guy who doesn't know me and has never purchased a card from me or my auction. Sorry but I am heading out on the road for the next two days to pick up consignments. Will have little access to my computer.

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05-31-2007, 04:47 AM

Posted By: jay behrensFinally, an answer the question. Thank you. Now, if had given that answer right from the get go, instead of the ambiguous ones you gave previously, there never would have been a need to repeatedly ask the question over and over. It also would have averted the Oracle of Delphi comparison. What are we supposed to think when you keep dodging a simple question with ambiguous answers. Whether or not I know you or have bought a card from Mastro doesn't matter, I'm still a potential customer, and that should matter to you, but you prove with that statement that unless I spend money with you that my question is unimportant and proves that you are more worried about protecting your bottom line more than anything else. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-31-2007, 04:53 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPrior post by Doug--late 2006 "I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that break the surface". This mornings's post. "PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this that is prohibited by my employees". Now there is a 180. So to further clarify Doug you used to have no problem with taking creases out of cards but now it is prohibited by your employees. When was this change is policy? Why change now? This is not a new policy by PSA or SGC. Why has it been so difficult for you to be so forthcoming here?--no comments at the collectors dinner in New York and avoiding the question here on the boards? Jim

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05-31-2007, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Michael JamesI must say that I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the knowledge and concern that many of you have in regards to the issue in question. Two words that were mentioned in this thread earlier "honesty" and "integrity" have stuck out. I have been a collector for 35 years which is the majority of my life and in that time I have firsthand witnessed what "integrity" and "honesty" is or should be in the sports card/collectible field. "Honesty" and Integrity" are strong words and in a perfect world are the basis and foundation of each and every one of us. It is quite obvious and ever so apparent in todays society that the words "honesty" and "integrity" take a back seat when it comes to generating the ever so desired "green back". There was a time in the hobby when things were simple, affordable, and for the most part fun. Then greed came along and mass production went forward full speed ahead literally ruining the hobby and devaluing it. Things were no longer simple and new ideas had to be consumated in order to "revive" the hobby and "reinvent" it and bring it to where it is today. Of course things change in time for the better or for the worse but "integrity" and "honesty" remain as elusive as ever in this, should I say, once wonderful hobby. Fake autographs, trimmed/doctored trading cards, questionable practices, a constent recycling of people working for the card or auction companies fired for unethical practices and rehired elswhere within the buisness contributes to a "No-Vote" of Confidance. It has always amazed me how the "ethical" people are usually the ones who have the hardest time moving forward while the "unethicals" continue to move forward at their expense and others. Honesty? Integrity? Confidence? where has it all gone? Was it really there in the first place? I really don't know but from one who loves collecting, the sport of baseball, and the way it magically takes us back to our youth, I sure hope so! If one can look in the mirror and be happy with what they see then I guess it's a good day.

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05-31-2007, 06:33 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethPerhaps I am naive but I find it very hard to believe the technology existed in the 50s to reprint T206s so convincingly that experts could not tell the difference. And it seems equally implausible the original printing plates existed as of that time.

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05-31-2007, 07:41 AM

Posted By: T206Collector"It's simply about industry standards." Agreed. "All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best." Agreed. I think SGC's standard reflect the industry standards. If 90% of pre-war collectors thought erasing pencil and soaking gunk was an impermissible alteration, then there is no way SGC would continue to slab such cards. I prefer to rely on the polls taken on Net54 last summer, and our collecting "niche" does not reflect a hardening of beliefs based on the disappointing reality of card alterations -- rather, speaking for myself, my belief system is based on common sense: trimming and adding color damage the integrity of the cardboard; saoking and erasing do not. "As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden." Again, there is ambiguity on the end of the scale with soaking and erasing, but there is no ambiguity on the other end of the scale with trimming and adding color. The polls last summer made that abundantly clear -- and, indeed, SGC's grading practices confirm that understanding.

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05-31-2007, 08:50 AM

Posted By: E, Daniel<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> And again, I firmly believe that no matter the softness of the art gum eraser - the act of rubbing back and forth on paper fibres so as to remove a layer of 'something' from its surface would undeniably have impact on the integrity of that surface. Just becasue artists use them for do overs doesn't mean that the effect isn't actual, just that visually it is so minimal they can go on and have their artistic efforts be eye clean. Are there loads of unintentioal ways of impacting the surface of the card, sure. But I see it as a very obvious line one crosses when you do these things intentionally. Further, though I never did the follow-up, I find it impossible to believe that swelling paper fibres through a good soaking has no effect on them on-goingly. The rather facetious notion (not suggesting you have put it forward) that cards have previously been left in the rain or flooded in a basement does not take away from the simple premise: Do you feel it is your right to knowingly and actively make alterations to the cards you buy/own? I don't. But grind your teeth not (joke <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), I won't be pushing this old barrow any further. As usual I just needed to have my say. Regards Daniel

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05-31-2007, 09:01 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMichael, you're right. Companies like to use the words "integrity" and "honesty" when describing themselves but clearly that is just part of a marketing package.

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05-31-2007, 10:17 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanI've brought this up before but it bears reiterating given the debate at hand. All the auctioneers are doing business in California. California has a specific law barring alteration of cards without disclosure: Business & Professions Code 21671. (a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work. (b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both: (1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any nonmonetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both. (2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation. What is an alteration is covered in section 21670(a): "Altered or refurbished" means repair work which has been performed to enhance the value of the sports trading card as a collectible. This work includes, but is not limited to, filling in holes, building new corners, ironing out creases, or touching up the pictures or borders on the sports trading card. Doesn't matter if it passes SGC or PSA; the act of altering the card results in the disclosure requirement. If Mastro is "preparing" cards for grading by doing the things of which it is accused, it has to supply the required certificate to any California buyer of the card. Well, where are the certs?

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05-31-2007, 10:48 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBoxingCardMan, In his new spirit of answering our questions and full disclosure, I am sure Doug will quickly produce the certificates--after all this is the "New" Mastronet. Jim

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05-31-2007, 10:48 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThey aren't "altered". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-31-2007, 10:50 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThey should amend subsection b to include "grades".

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05-31-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- they haven't been Mastronet for a couple of years. They are now Mastro Auctions, to be precise.

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05-31-2007, 12:00 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI didn't see anything in the new Mastro catalogue describing any "alterations" as defined by PSA (and Mastro) now. I feel very confident that such prep work is no longer done by Mastro as evidenced by the lack of disclosure on any auction item. After all, Doug has been so straightforward and open about all of these issues I'm certain he will continue this new course of conduct.

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05-31-2007, 12:09 PM

Posted By: Dean HI'm a very small player but I think disclosure is all that is being asked for. Let the buyer decide what is acceptable to them and what is not. But I realize that will not happen because some potential bidders will be turned away by what may have been done and therefore possibly lead to lower realized prices. Dean

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05-31-2007, 01:09 PM

Posted By: MikeJeff, Now that is funnier than Seinfeld.

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05-31-2007, 01:28 PM

Posted By: shane leonardJay, you keep insisting that Doug lay out all their business practices and how he feels about "preping" cards for grading. Do you really think he needs to explain himself to you? You aren't even a customer of his. This is like you going into McDonalds and telling the manager that you have never eaten here before, but "how do you cook these fake, chicken McNuggets?" If this was Barry Sloates auction and I had a question for him that was absolutely ripping my gut apart, I would pick up the phone and call him. Whatever he told me would be between me and him. It is obvious Doug's stance on things as he has answered this really clearly. Maybe not in legal terms as Jeff would have it, but he has. Barry, hope you don't mind using you in my analogy. Shane

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05-31-2007, 01:41 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanShane, Doug hardly answered very direct questions clearly. Hardly. And this has nothing to do with "legal terms." We all asked for some simple information. My question was the same as Jay's and Jim's and Peter's and... And no one was asking for a response in legalese. I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?

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05-31-2007, 01:49 PM

Posted By: barrysloateNo problem Shane- it allowed me to make the 200th post.

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05-31-2007, 01:51 PM

Posted By: jay behrensShane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-31-2007, 01:53 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?" You should've asked before you ate them.

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05-31-2007, 02:00 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWell, Paul, if I did that then according to Shane I'm not entitled to any information as I'm not yet a customer. So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?

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05-31-2007, 02:15 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJay, I do own my own business and I do my research on what I purchase. I can tell you that if you aren't my customer, I owe you nothing. If you are trying to use my services for free or trying to throw me under the bus, I don't want to talk to you. My point is, the question has been answered, just not point blank like you would want him to. You can think I am a sucker if you want. I couldn't care what you think. Jeff That $30,000 in nine months is great. I have sent them $169K in the last year as well. I am very aware of what goes on with grading cards and I am not ignorant to think that a 1933 Goudey PSA 9 came from someones collection untouched for 74 years. To each his own on how you view this, but come on be real! I don't want to buy a card that has been recolored or trimmed and I don't want PSA/SGC holdering those either. This thread sheads light to issues that should be exposed, but Mastro does not practice uncommon/unethical alteration to cards. If I am wrong, I certainly would discontinue using them as my primary contact.

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05-31-2007, 02:18 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJeff, You are entitled to know everything that you want. Pick up a phone and ask him nicely and I am sure that he would help you with your questions. If you are going to place him on trial, you probably are not going to get the answer that you are looking for.

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05-31-2007, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanShane, I find it very strange that someone with such a relationship with Mastro would ask for less, not more, information from them on cards you are purchasing. Makes no sense at all. Shane, you're right. I'm going to call Doug tomorrow or Friday and ask him these questions and then report back, verbatim, what he told me. I think that all of us deserve to know such important information about Mastro's practices, not just those that spend large dollars with them. How does that sound?

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05-31-2007, 02:21 PM

Posted By: jay behrensShane, how in the world do you build a business if you aren't willing to answer questions that are asked by potential customers? That's a formula for failure. You may be a lemming and go along with whatever the crowd is doing, but I will not condone accept altering cards as part of collecting. People like you who don't want to rock boat allow these people to continue altering cards and selling altered cards as undoctored. It's people like Jim, Jeff and myself and that will hopefully change the current status quo. If no one is willing to speak out, then change will never happen. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-31-2007, 02:22 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJeff, I feel comfortable with Mastro. When I have a reason not to be comfortable with them, I will spend the same as Jay does with them. Regards, Shane

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05-31-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanShane, that's wonderful that you feel comfortable with them. I hope to be as well. And while you feel comfortable that Doug will be more forthcoming over the phone, 1 on 1, he refused to answer Jim Crandell's question about Mastro's altering practices when they met in NYC. Perhaps his policy has changed since then.

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05-31-2007, 02:32 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJay You do need to answer questions to help current customers and potential customers. I agree with you on this. I am not a lemming -whatever the f(*&^ that is. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I am not condoning alteration of cards, please don't get me wrong on this point. I want my cards to be enhanced free. I believe that Mastro does not cross this line. It is that simple. If you don't believe this, then Mastro is somewhere I would not spend your money. I can rock a boat, don't worry bro. I can rock it until every deadbeat falls out of it. I am glad that you have spoken up so that people are aware. Here is a little secret though.....it has been happening along time. This may not be an excuse for it to continue, but it will.

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05-31-2007, 02:34 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAnyone feel like taking a deep breath and counting to ten?

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05-31-2007, 02:40 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?" Sure. But it is remarkable to me that you do not realize that none of your bantering would have been necessary if you had picked up the phone and (a) called before you spent $30K on baseball cards, like a diligent consumer would have; and (b) if you called after you found out something about your purchases that concerned you. Do you really think that the environment that you have created on this thread is conducive to getting constructive answers to your questions? Bad customers are bad customers, even if they spend $30K on the product.

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05-31-2007, 02:48 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFirst, I never realized that Mastro altered cards until after Doug mentioned it out here. Next, when you buy graded cards you assume that you are only dealing with the bona fides of the grading company -- it was not until Doug made his admission that I learned I had to trust them as well not to try to slip something past PSA or SGC. Finally, Jim Crandell created a very nice environment when he met with Doug and asked the same question and got a 'no comment' from him. Doug came out here on this thread and was evasive in his responses to the same question -- until he finally came clean (sort of). So, perhaps whatever so-called environment that was created here worked to get some answer out of him. And finally, I make no apology for airing my questions and criticisms on a public board of like-minded collectors. I think it would be weasly to pick up the phone, get the information and then not share it with the rest of you. Or get on the phone, make Doug feel as if he is having a private conversation with me and then blast the info out here - also weak in my opinion. What is the purpose of this board if not to air all of these issues publicly?

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05-31-2007, 02:52 PM

Posted By: jay behrensHow does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer? Doug's initial answer was ambiguous, at best. Even I wanted clarification because Doug claimed that Mastro would be following SGC/PSA guideline, yet he had early come on this board and stated that Mastro does things to cards that violate these guidelines. Why anyone wouldn't want that clarified is beyond me. Shane, I've been in this hobby a very long time. Few on this board can claim to have been around longer. As Scott Elkins pointed out, trimming and altering cards was never a real issue until Jim Copeland came on the scene and made all the doctoring cards a worthwhile propositions. I remember being set up at a show at the Moscone Center in SF. Someone asked me if I had any oversized t206s and really low grade 33 Goudey's. I asked if that's what he collected. He said, no. He wanted the t206s to trim down and try to sell to Copeland and Goudeys to turn to pulp so that he could fix up other Goudeys with original stock. That was my wake up call to what was really happening in the hobby. Even back then, I never chased high grade cards, but from that point forward, I never looked at a NM card the same way again. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-31-2007, 02:54 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJeff I would encourage you to call Doug to get whatever information that you need. I do agree with Jim that because of this thread he probably won't be giving you any earth shattering information. Give it a try. Regards, Shane

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05-31-2007, 02:55 PM

Posted By: joe brennan4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!" The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut. JimB If I read the letter correctly, Bray was stating the difference between the two Wagners, (Hienie and Honus) Never was there a reference that it was actually Honus. And the Plank back was never stated? Where do you tie all these together from this letter. Where does it say he purchased them and it was Honus and Plank with a piedmont back? I need you to show me the tie. Thanks, Joe In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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05-31-2007, 02:58 PM

Posted By: shane LeonardJay, That is the stuff that I don't want to be apart of. Clearly a different animal than laying down a corner or cleaning a wax stain off with a pair of pantyhose. I don't want a card in my collection that has had a haircut. Shane

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05-31-2007, 03:05 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...but I think you handled this one quite poorly. The only reason its any of my business is because you aired your b*tch on a public chatboard that I frequent. I find your cause neither noble nor necessary. For the Nth time, if SGC will grade it and guarantee it, I really could care less because any future owner of that card is protected from anything untoward that may one day be discovered about the 100-year history of that card. The day that you purchase a card graded by SGC that was overgraded or improperly graded and SGC will not comp you the difference in what you paid and the appropriate value of that card if properly graded, then I'll be interested in hearing it. But in the meantime, what value you think has been added by Mastro guaranteeing cards that were subsequently graded by SGC and guaranteed by SGC is beyond me. You'll never know what happened in the other 99 years of that card's history -- and you really should be comfortable with that.

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05-31-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: AlanMy 2 cents... The folks who have been harping on Mastro for their, "lack of disclosure,", please show me an example of a single business anywhere that is willing to admit how it squeezes every penny of profit from every possible area. No business would be so forthcoming! I for one applaud Doug Allen as well as Steve Verkman and other dealers who willingly respond to this forum (frankly, I am amazed anyone would continue to respond after the way some board members attack every letter typed by these dealers). I completely understand the frustration from a collector's point of view, but please think how any business would respond to your questions. If Mastro or any other auction house removes creases, erases marks, etc, do you really expect them to own up to it? Would you if you were in a similar position? Even if the auction house is considered to be completely trustworthy, do you really think the occasional slip up, error, or ommission will not occur? All of these auction houses are in business to make money, not to specifically cater to a handful of customers who believe they are waging a moral crusade. I would also like to state that I deplore any alterations made to a card after its manufacture, but without a uniform code of standards for the industry the debate and attacks will produce nothing of substance. I doubt a uniform code will ever exist (barring a major calamity involving high dollar cards and at least one major auction house) because the sports auction business is highly competitive. For everyone who complains about this issue on a thread like this, the only way to get your voice heard is through your wallet. Attacking dealers like Doug when he willingly posts on this forum will only drive other collectors from your position. Instead, create a new thread (if needed) to call for a boycott of any auction house that does not conform to the standards you agree upon. Bottom line: These are busineses run for a profit. It is against their best financial practice to disclose all that is being requested, ergo, it will cost them money to make the disclosures. Ergo, they will not (nor should they have to) do it. Alan Elefson

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05-31-2007, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul, why does everything have to come back to you issuing yet another valentine to SGC? And who asked Mastro to 'guarantee' anything? The point is, I don't know what the hell happened to the cards I buy after Mastro receives them and before they sell the cards -- and I would like to know that information. If I can't see the alteration how am I going to ask SGC to guarantee the grade? Buyers are at a significant disadvantage when dealing with an auction house that alters cards before selling them to the public. I just think it's fair that we're told what they do to the cards after they receive them from consignors. And for the last time, the only reason Doug got dragged over the coals here is because he refused to provide a clear answer - for days.

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05-31-2007, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethDo you REALLY like SGC or are you just saying so? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just busting your chops and not singling you out, it seems the whole discussion has become a bit redundant so maybe it's time to take it O/T or something. Seinfeld anyone?

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05-31-2007, 03:13 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"How does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer?" That's not what makes him a bad customer. His method is. Not that Jeff cares (obviously). His view is essentially, I spent $30,000 on cardboard, I deserve answers to all questions, wherever and however I want. I respectfully disagree to his entitlement to anything other than what he paid for.

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05-31-2007, 03:15 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAlan, I agree with you what you wrote. I think the funniest thing about this thread is that Doug, despite his refusal to directly answer the questions posed, actually comes across as painfully honest in a way -- because any fraudster would simply say, "of course, we don't alter cards" - and then alter them anyway. That's what I expect from auction houses because as everyone can agree, money is the bottom line.

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05-31-2007, 03:20 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorFor me, it all boils down to protecting my investment -- whether it is $3 or $30,000. Given the potential for alterations on 100 year old cardboard, it is insane not to have that investment protected by a guarantee of no alteration. If you have a guarantee of no alteration, then anything that happened to that card prior to your acquisition of that card is covered -- period. There should be no need for any further discussion on the topic. "S", "G" and "C" are three letters than sum all of the foregoing up for me so I don't have to keep writing it down long-form. I continue to be perplexed by some collectors' needs to prove the purity of a 100-year old piece of cardboard, beyond a money-backed guarantee.

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05-31-2007, 03:23 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPaul, I wonder if Doug Allen thinks I'm a bad customer. I'm guessing no.

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05-31-2007, 03:27 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...yes. So what? I'm sure he loves having to come on here and defend his business practices to you in a public forum. It's his favorite thing. He'll probably send you a Christmas card thanking you for being such a nice guy. You seem to lament that "money is the bottom line," but then you say that you deserve answers based on $30K in purchases. You may be a strong customer, but your $30K in purchases was only $X ahead of the second bidder in all those auctions, i.e., remove yourself from those purchases and they don't lose $30K.

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05-31-2007, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethBrian S, where are you? We could keep this going for another 200 posts at least.

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05-31-2007, 03:30 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanYeah, funny how that works: if you give money to a business you expect straightforward answers. I wonder how my business would do if I told my clients that I won't defend my practices or respond to questions. I'd do real well.

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05-31-2007, 03:31 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...of your questioning. That's my only point.

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05-31-2007, 03:34 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPaul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand. My issue is not with SGC. They don't alter cards for resale. My issue is with the people that do altering. I don't care if it's detectable or not. To me, it's still wrong and what Doug claimed went on at Mastro is wrong in my book. That's why I wanted the clarification. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-31-2007, 03:35 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI don't see where how much business Jay has done with Mastro should enter into it. He is a knowledgeabl;e guy and has valid questions. Doug would no doubt be surprised at how much business I have done because in the past I have bought through dealers in addition to under my own name--yet I don't expect any different treatment than Jay. I sort of come at this the same way as Jeff(wow). I was stunned when Doug admitted to altering cards on Net 54 and then promised to get back to us after talking with Forman and Orlando. No explanation was forthcoming. Then at a moderate sized collectors dinner I hosted (Barry was there) he flat out refused to comment on how they altered cards suggesting that he had caused enough controversy already. Then he comes on here, grandstands and refuses to answer direct questions about his company's business practices until finally he sort of confesses that they have changed their policy(Double Wow). Shane--you are a good hobby friend and I think you are a smart guy but I think you are wrong on this one. Jim

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05-31-2007, 03:38 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"Paul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand." I prefer to call myself a vulgar realist.

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05-31-2007, 03:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDoug did say much earlier in this thread that he would be out of town for a couple of days picking up consignments, and would not be able to respond during this time. Why not at least wait until he is back in the office, then continue this. I think at this point he will be compelled to say something.

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05-31-2007, 04:00 PM

Posted By: shane leonardJim, I don't know how I am wrong, but am always willing to listen. I don't like altered cards. I pay for SGC/PSA to guarantee that they are not altered. I know how to remove a crease, I just can't do it without ruining the card-so I don't do it. I don't pay anyone to "improve" my cards and I don't want a tampered card. Jim, you and I have discussed this before and we agree to disagree on the fact that wiping a card down to remove wax or a dust is not a foul. Laying down a corner or smashing a wrinkle down is something I don't have a problem with either. After this, I got a problem with it. Email me directly Jim if you care to discuss furthur. SL

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05-31-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesSo Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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05-31-2007, 07:02 PM

Posted By: Sean CWe already have an admission from Doug that they have done so in the past without disclosing it to the winning buyer(s). Such an admission would probably go a long way should someone ever decide to sue Mastro. Quoting So Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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05-31-2007, 07:28 PM

Posted By: MikeU"Shane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker." - Jay B. One difficult item for a company/business to cope with is the fact that all customers do not have a net positive gain, nor are they always right. I personally know of several companies that were forced into bankruptcy trying to please OEM's. The recurring problem is nearly uniform: 1. Not being able to tell the customer no when appropriate, particulary in the face of duress/threats. 2. Selling at zero or negative margin in hopes of partnership building and future business. 3. Identifying customers that are too difficult or costly to deal with. Refuse to quote these jobs or include sufficient money to cover "high maintenance" portion. 4. Identify qualified/significant leads and focus on them e.g. all inquiries are not equal and do not deserve the same attention. There are only so many resources and tough choices have to be made. 5. Identify your truly valuable customers e.g. high margin, low hassle etc. and treat them like gold. Many times your most valuable customers (most profit) are not simply the customers you have the most order value with. Back on Topic: 1. I commend Doug for being truthful last year regarding wrinkle removal. 2. I also commend Doug for changing his wrinkle removal practice after the realization that this was a problem with SGC/PSA and many collectors. 3. I find it humourous that Doug = evil and Rob = innocence. REA has sent out the letter that Mastro lies about there catalog distribution and a letter that people pay more at REA because their customers know that do not alter cards, like everyone else does. Also, REA sent the letter they never resubmit cards, unlike Matro. We know publicly of two examples of cards that were rejected by one company as authentic and slabbed by another company. Apparently, authenticy issues can be resubmitted, just not grade issues. I do agree that REA market perception is probably the pinnacle of integrity in the auction business. However, Rob is a key player involved in perpetuating the biggest the "Holy Grail" sin in the hobby and has a contridiction in the reslabbing of cards deemed unathentic. In any case, is there truly a difference in integrity bewtween Rob and Doug?

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05-31-2007, 09:29 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanRob did not start a post on N54 this week about his company's auction policies. Doug did. I think many posters here are losing sight of the fact that Doug started this thread to toot his company's horn only to be confronted with some difficult questions that he did not handle well directly. No one called him up and asked him to make his initial post; he did it for (presumably) his own commercial reasons. Had I been advising him I would have told him to stay out of things here and simply let the cards do the talking. However, he chose to come in here and post on behalf of Mastro and to take positions that seemed to be in conflict with his company's prior positions. Sure he was cross examined pretty hard (for a setting outside court) but if he can't take that heat he has to stay off the board in the first place.