My two-cents on "The Card"...boy did I enjoy it

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Posted By: <b>Joe</b><p>Just finished reading “The Card.” Took me a few hours to read…couldn’t put it down. There have been some fine books written about the sports collectibles industry, namely Pete Williams’s “Card Sharks” and the incredibly under-appreciated “Operation Bullpen” by Kevin Nelson. But Michael O’Keeffe And Teri Thompson’s book has the potential to do to baseball cards what “Game of Shadows” has done to the steroids “hobby.” The reason for this is twofold, first: noted and respected authors as well as major league publisher, and secondly, like Barry Bonds in “Shadows,” we have a real-life villain in “The Card” in William Mastro. <br /><br />I realize that some readers of this forum will take issue with some of the inaccuracies in this book—and there are a number of those--but you need to understand that this book is not written for you. Publishers would starve (and many are today) if they produced books for niche fields like us. Readers of this forum (which, by the way, makes a couple of appearances in the book) all know the story of the Gretzky T206 Wagner. Using this card as an example, this book is an attempt by two investigative journalists to expose fraud in a small but sexy industry. And they have kicked ass. <br /><br />It’s basically a book about card doctoring, a practice—like steroids—everybody knew was going on but few did anything about—because everybody (including all the owners of “The Card”) was profiting from it. And while the authors essentially put the scalpel in Mastro’s hand, they could have been even harsher in their indictment of the industry titan. In fact, I thought they were more than fair in their accusations. For instance, they could have addressed the question of what has become of all the “restored” cards Mastro Vice President Ron Oser was selling 15 or so years ago. Nor did they speculate about Mastro’s reasons for changing his employment status at the auction house. <br /><br /><br />I loved this book. There’s a lot here, but I wanted more. We’ll all want more. Sadly, in the end, this really IS a book for us, because the problems of baseball card collectors amount to a hill of beans when it comes to fraud in American industry. But at least we can boo with a bit more confidence when Bill Mastro steps up to the plate.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>There are so many inaccuracies in it I am not sure we can tell anything....Sort of like saying many things outragously incorrect and then saying ....but everything is true, really......The author got his point across but so much of the info was wrong it is pointless...My wife thought it was a good read, as she is an English major (the writing was so so to her, like a newspaper guy wrote it) but she was unknowing of all of the things that were blatantly inaccurate and enjoyed it. It should do well with people that are ignorant of the hobby.....regards

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>What i don't understand is. Why all the questionable activity by one of the hobby's biggest players ?<br /><br />I have yet to read the book . But from the above post it seems that Mastro's ethics are being questioned yet again.<br /><br />Usually where there's smoke.........<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave G</b><p>So what were the major inaccuracies?<br /><br />Can you give us a synopsis?

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Posted By: <b>Joe</b><p>Here are a few, from a previous post by MARK. I suspect there will be dozens more as everyone reads the book. But again, remember, Upton Sinclair was not an expert on meatpacking:<br /><br />....I have already found several errors that will really irritate vintage card collectors. At one point, they mention that three players in the T206 set were in the first class of the Hall of Fame - Wagner, Cobb and Johnson. Matty was left out. However, later on, they made it up to Matty by including him in the T204 set! Not only that, there are also, apparently, in existence T204 cards of Cobb, Young and Lajoie. What a scoop! You Ramly collectors have four more cards to find than you thought.<br /><br /><br />My favorite part, so far, is when they refer to Alan Rosen as the hobby's first celebrity. Whatever.<br /><br />Oh, as a T3 collector, I have to throw this in. On page 40, it is stated that the cards were redeemed for coupons. I'm pretty sure it was the other way around.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Joe has hit on some of them. In all honesty I am only half finished with the book. Also, no doubt, there is some truth in there....but so far nothing I haven't heard before. Through all of it, if I had to make an educated guess from everything I have seen and heard....I would say the card was cut from a sheet and then cut again after that.....That's my opinion at this time.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The fact that the authors mistakenly thought that Matty was contained in the T204 set is not exactly the sort of mistake that would cause me to question allegations of fraud by Bill Mastro -- though can you imagine how cool that Matty card would look? I'd love to hear Mastro's response to the allegations.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I've not received my book yet...<br /><br /><br />What I'd like to see is an errata list. One that is succinct, without soapboxing.<br /><br />It would list the page number, then what is said in the book, then what would be correct.<br /><br /><br />"We" could do that, guys.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'll say it for the millionth time I guess....why would anyone believe a word of O'Keeffe after he blatently misrepresented what was said in Net54 about the two guys with the fake Wagner? Gosh! Don't you guys remember how most of us thought race played a role in that fiasco????<br /><br />He's a tabloid trash writer who can't be bothered to check his facts. You guys are giving that low life your hard earned dollars???

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>I agree wholeheartedly with Dan on this one. (Not to imply that I have ever disagreed with him on anything else <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>)<br /><br />Those of you who have spent money for the book and don't plan on making it a permanent part of your collection you should put it on the BST once you are finished. In this way we may minimize the rewards to the author.

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Posted By: <b>RIch Klein</b><p>And does not want to keep it; I'll be happy to pay whatever you think is fair plus a shipping cost. It would be another nice addition for my hobby library collection.<br /><br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I definitely would NOT BUY this book....I got it for free from a board member and it's an unedited copy...I don't think any of the info changed but they had some poor grammar and misspelled words....I haven't mentioned those things on purpose as it is unedited. Once I am finished I will ask the person who sent it to me if he wants it back..and if not I will send it to another board member.....Once I saw all of the mistakes I quit reading it but I really should finish it. BTW, I am not taking up for anyone either....I definitely think there is a lot that is known that is still not being told.....by the insiders.....

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Joe, I was "caught" by your statement of the restored cards Ron Oser sold years ago. I always loved the old Ron Oser auctions before he joined Mastro and have several of the old catalogs. It sounds like you are saying that Mastro was able to get a lot of these restored cards sold by Oser years ago into graded holders as unaltered and to keep Oser from saying anything about it, he is now VP at Mastro Inc. Anyway, just wondering if you had any specific examples of these restored cards? I was wondering b/c I have a bunch of old Ron Oser Enterprises catalogs and would love to compare images of the restored cards to some in holders being auctioned now. This would be rather easily done - to catch these restored cards in holders showing them as unaltered now. On my website, I have been able to post a few pics of before and after pics of cards sold by some auction houses and would love to be able to find some more. It is amazing how many of these are out there. However, I am certain some people simply don't want to know. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> However, this does need to be exposed, as it is nothing more than outright fraud! Thanks in advance Joe for any answers!

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>If you are around this hobby long enough you will hear horror stories about all of the major players, even those who are now being canonized. My feeling is that you can only judge from experience, not from one guy trying to denegrate another. My experience with Bill Mastro has only been positive. I consider him to be a good guy, someone who has helped build the hobby to where it is today, and, most importantly to me,a friend.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I've only seen bits and pieces of the book so far. Can I assume that Rob Lifson is the good guy in the book or is there somebody else.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I kinda look at auction houses like the Chinese Buffet around the corner.....if you could see what goes on in the back room, you'd probably get sick. On the surface though it's pretty good and I always go back for seconds........<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I only work out of one room...does that give me a free pass?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Come on, how are you going to make back room deals if you only have one room. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Thanks for spoiling, in advance, my Chinese dinner.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The back room deals are in the back of the one room....

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Can you imagine Kramer being pulled into the back of Barry's room...he'd be yelling and complaining that he couldn't make the deal because it wasn't really the back room... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I thought all of Barry's back room deals were done by phone? edited to add: <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Cat- you're not Sparky, are you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Barry, I wish I would have watched more Seinfeld, but I have probably seen about six episodes. Unfortunately, I am lost with the Sparky reference. Hopefully my attempt at humor was interpretted the correct way.... a reference to your phone auctions.<br /><br />"Barry Sloate Auctions: Where You Never Have Bandwidth Issues" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Looking forward to your next one with great anticipation since I have already heard about a couple of key cards that you are going to have in your auction.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Other than the nice e90-1 Jackson what else might be of interest? If you tell I can spend the weekend planning my strategy.<br /><br />Everyone please have a safe holiday weekend.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hi Cat- that Sparky cretin posts anonymously and criticizes me for being old fashioned because I still conduct telephone auctions. So when you mentioned the phone in your post, that was the reference.<br /><br />And Seinfeld reruns will be aired forever so you can always catch up. Arguably, there are better ways to spend your time than watching TV.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Is it proper etiquette to discuss my auction on somebody else's thread?

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>when asked. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edit: I think that once twelve continuous posts to a thread are O/T to the main point of the thread that all is fair game.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Then I will be brief, and if Leon feels it is inappropriate, he has my permission to promptly delete it:<br /><br />I have the bulk of Hal's fine collection of Hall of Fame rookie cards, including T204 Johnson and many other scarce ones. Plus, some very exotic T206 front/ back combinations, and some high grade cards from the 30's, again almost all rookies. And just to be different, instead of saying "...and much, much more..." I will say "and that's pretty much it." I will go into more detail when it's more appropriate and closer to the opening.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry, looks like real good stuff... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Joe</b><p>Scott:<br /><br />I in no way meant to imply anything untoward about Ron Oser's position at Mastro...I've no idea where that came from, perhaps I'm a lousy writer. I was just writing a review of a book about card doctoring. The villain of the book is William Mastro and as I was writing I remembered traipsing through the aisles of Fort Washington years ago and seeing these "restored" cards being sold by, as I recall, Ron Oser, who happens to be with Mastro these days. I was just wondering what has become of those cards. After I posted, I did a few minutes of looking and see that some cards ARE being sold as altered on eBay and elsewhere. But it's not a stretch to think that the "restored" tag has vanished from more than a couple of these cards.<br /><br />Peter:<br /><br />Yes, Lifson is absolutely the good guy and clearly the meal ticket source for the authors. The split between Mastro and Lifson is given short shrift in the book...unless you read very closely between the lines.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The book portrays the whole hobby in a bad light. I am not defending Bill Mastro, or Rob Lifson, for that matter. The book sheds no new light on anything, is sensationalism at its worst, and is a piece of crap in my opinion. I hope O'keefe doesn't sell any of them.... The publisher should look to acquire the National Enquirer (supermarket tabloid published by American Media Inc) as there is more truth in it than this work O'keefe has put together...and "work" is a stretch in it's own right. I WOULD NEVER WASTE ONE PENNY on this piece of crap....I will get through with my FREE unedited copy and pass it along to the next person that doesn't want to waste their money on tabloid trash......All he does is embellish rumors like many of the people he used in getting his misinformation.....I love this board.....warm regards<br /><br /><br />edited to correct "it's" ...thanks Barry...I am sure it would have ruined the whole flavor of my thoughts....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Its <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, when will you have a preview up? I am dying for an auction, seriously.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>June 6 or 7. I suppose I could get it up sooner. Do you think that's a good idea? (not today, I mean a few days earlier than I planned).

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I always feel the earlier the better as it will ensure that the maximum amount of people will be exposed to the items prior to the auction.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Leon, Barry,<br /><br />I know you both hate this book and think it's tabloid trash, but the unfortunate part of this is that tabloid trash sells well. Personally, I'll probably just look through it quickly in the book store and pass on purchasing it.<br /><br />What's ironic about all this is that the Gretzky T-206 Wagner may become even more desireable of a card. After all it's probably the only card that has an entire book written about it.<br /><br />Peter<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- where did I say I hate the book? I haven't even seen it or read it yet.<br /><br />Jeff- maybe I will launch it earlier but it's still too soon.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Once again, it must have been in the penumbras of your prior posts. It's (not its) deja vu all over again, Peter C. Why do you insist on misquoting Barry?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Your right, Barry, Peter S., man...I read through these threads way too quickly at times. Thanks for correcting me.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- you're an attorney. I expect you to read your legal documents more carefully than that!<br /><br />And it's "you're right", not "your right". Come on Peter, get with the program!!

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>For the hundreth time, by the way, "Your right" is not correct usage. It's "You're right." Sheesh.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Geez, I wonder how many lurkers are afraid to post because they might get slammed for poor grammar?<br /><br />As long as you get the gist of the post what is the big deal?

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Leon:<br /><br />If no one is in line to receive your free copy after you finish reading it, I'll take it, read it, and then pass it on. I wouldn't even bother spending the money to ship it. I'll see you at the National if you still have it at that time.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I'm starting to believe I can say almost anything I want on this Board but I better not make a grammatical error. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Doesn't everybody take pride in constructing grammatically correct sentences? Okay, I admit I can be a pain in the butt, but it's my training. I taught English composition at college, and old habits die hard.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>I doubt if there are many, if any.<br /><br />The deal with Peter C. is that he's intelligent enough to know better AND he has been reminded many, many times.<br /><br />As with Barry it annoys the heck out of me when I see the misuse of your or you're. Same with their and there. Same with its and it's. Same with too and to. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Your right. Its an outrage. Good grammer is definately desireable.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>How about "has" and "hs?" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And Peter S. got nearly every word wrong. That too is a talent.

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Smarty pants <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sorry Zinn- you stuck up for me and I cut you down. That's poor etiquette. My apologies. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />The phrase is "doesn't anybody take..." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>No cut Barry. I caught the error and edited at the same time you were posting. BUT you did miss the missing "s" at the end of the word "times" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I meant "everybody", as in "don't we all take pride." It works. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You can't catch them all! Editing is hard work <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />This grammar stuff must be a snap for you, but my problem is the more I look at it...the more confused I become. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Okay Zinn, if Peter C. has been reminded many times of his grammatical mistakes and not corrected them then why continue to do so? Is he being graded on his posts?<br /><br />And to keep this on topic - Michael O'Keeffe is STILL a crappy writer who doesn't check his facts.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- I actually check my posts before I respond, but sometimes I miss errors and I think it may be a visual problem. I may transpose two letters and despite rereading I miss it anyhow. Maybe that's a "getting older" kind of thing.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I have to agree with the criticism of Peter on his inability to understand the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. Honestly, as an attorney it stuns me.

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Peter C. knows we love him and this is all in fun.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I suppose that being in CA I may have become too lax in my grammar. But I do know the difference between "your" possessive and "you're" which is a conjunction. But I only know the difference because I just looked it up. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Contraction

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It's only a mild annoyance to me, but I guess if you guys are that bothered about Peter C's misuse of "Your" and "You're" then by all means continue to correct him. I would guess that after the 10th time correcting him you guys would get the hint that perhaps he either doesn't care, doesn't get it, or he enjoys pushing your buttons.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks David, it is a contraction.<br /><br />And you know what- looking something up is not cheating. Everyone should look up a word if they think they misspelled it.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />However, conjunction sounds fancier and is closer to being right than I normally am. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter: imagine if you knew the difference between 'your' and 'you're'. You could charge $450 an hour!

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />We both know New York attorneys make more...but that's because your grammar is better than mine.<br /><br />But I'm learning...see I used "your" correctly this time. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Your cured!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Your cured.<br /><br />I think you caught the bug from Peter.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Satire, Jerry, satire.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Kapeesh.<br /><br />(did I spell that right?)

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p><a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=capice" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=capice</a>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Aren't there any Italians in Brooklyn, Barry? You need to come to one of my trials.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yikes...I wasn't even close on that one. I guess I never saw it in print.<br /><br />Italians in Brooklyn? I think there might be a few.<br /><br />Jeff, by the way, have you done any trials in the Brooklyn Supreme Court? I live just a few blocks away.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I've had a number of cases there...but never a trial. Many in the federal court in Brooklyn just a few blocks from Schermerhorn Street.

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>I spelled it correctly <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Barry knows the only difference between a jew and an italian in brooklyn is the color of the curtains and one group only eats sausage outside the home....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I live about five blocks away.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Henry- you're going to get yourself into trouble for that one! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"kapeesh"?<br /><br />'your' not even close barry -<br /><br />capisce

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When I see a word in print I can make a mental picture of it...that is clearly one I never saw before. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>That was the Yiddish version of "kapeesh".

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />Thanks for the link above. This is a great line that Leon can use in the future, "If you don't shutup, I'm going to bust your frickin head open with a baseball bat, capice."<br /><br />It would be quite a change for our usually mild moderator dude. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Who would you suggest he use that line on, Peter? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Peter S,<br /><br />Maybe that should be the next poll?

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Greg, it would be an interesting battle -- for second place. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It's sad to see that what should be a very serious topic of discussion has turned into this. And people wonder why myself and others think Net54 has become a joke when it comes to getting serious about going after the unethical things that go on int he hobby.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jay- no reason to feel sad that we strayed off topic.<br /><br />Feel free to get us back on track. Several posters stated the book was sensational trash, so I think at that point our attention spans drifted.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jay what do you suggest? Should we take the book at face value and form a posse to go after Bill Mastro?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Someone check with Bruce D. and find out what the proposed punishment should be for going OT or making jokes after a thread has gone stale.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>but I'm with Jay on this one. I haven't read the book and would like to get some feedback or insight into either it or the players. It is disappointing to open the thread to look for this kind of information and simply see the same few people hijacking into the same sorry topics that are, believe it or not, completely uninteresting to some/most/nearly all? of us. Why not simply start your own thread? Plan another freaking NY dinner--that ought to keep you occupied.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Todd, very few folks seem to have read the book, so what's there to discuss really?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I don't think that anyone was prevented from posting on the original topic of the thread but for some reason this thread did not gain steam. One would have thought this was going to be the most damaging bit of information to hit the hobby and it turned out to be a non event. I have heard from several who have read it that it was a farce. The author said very little that was not already mentioned here anytime the Wagner has been brought up. Sounds like he failed to really prove much aside from tell a story with lots of inaccuracies. If you want to do a tell all, I think ya really have to be able to provide proof. He said she said carries no weight.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Truthfully, I would like to know more about the book, too. I haven't read it and when this thread was first started I expected to see quite a bit of fireworks. I even passed that comment along to Leon.<br /><br />But instead of discussing its contents, the few people who read it just dismissed it as trash. So why is anybody surprised the thread was hijacked? For whatever reason, nobody felt like discussing it.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Are not people who wish to post about the book still free to do so, despite the OT's?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I wish they would Bob. I am not going to read it and would like to hear anyone's opinion who has read it. The individuals of this board are never shy and the fact that this thread died speaks volumes.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Some people have claimed, but noone has offered any photographic proof, that the Wagner card is trimmed. Bill Mastro denies it. The people who allegedly have proof won't come forward with it. Did I miss anything else? Oh yeah, the Wagner has a Piedmont back.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>What more is there to say about the book anyway? It's a load of Sh*t. Anyone still want to make the claim that O'Keeffe doesn't have it in for Bill Mastro???

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Peter you just gave away the entire book. Thanks a lot.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Did O'Keefe document his work? Are there before and after pictures, or just a bunch of unsubstantiated allegations?

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Maybe we should reassemble the "Streak Bat" SWAT team to REALLY investigate this once and for all. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Go F*ck yourself.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Sheesh have a sense of humor already!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What's going on here?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I am excited about UFC 71 tomorrow night but this is a real nice warm up.

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Danno...lighten up Bud.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>maybe the better questions are how many here really want to know the truth about the card and of those, is it just a point of interest or curiosity or would it affect your view of the hobby in any meaningful respect?<br /><br />Seriously, it should not be that difficult to get to the truth here. The witnesses are still alive, it is not some government secret, and a thorough factual investigation would be at least persuasive if not conclusive. There are enough lawyers on this board to know that threats of legal action by Mastro lack substance, if any have even been made. Defamation cases are very difficult to prove, juries hate them, truth is a defense, and Mastro would have to prove damages. Once that door is open, baby, any and all horror stories about Mastro's business practices are fair game if "business reputation" is alleged to have suffered as a result of the Wagner "story". Who wants that potential dirty laundry scrutinized? So maybe these star witnesses are not coming forward because they have nothing? Either way and again, the truth should be out there and the issue capable of being decided if it really is something that people want to know, which leads me back to my initial question.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>So much so ... dat it begs da question.<br /><br />Letz change da forum title from VBC. (pre Iraqi war)<br />to:<br /><br />"Barry's Lil skoolhows on da prayery." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Letz consider any baseball talk az off topic, AKA OT.<br /><br />OT iz nott to be confused wit Ova Time, sometin dat iz now needed to pay for da gaz.<br /><br />From now on, dis furum will be a spellin and gramma furum.<br /><br />Anywun caught talkin baseball, will be banned, barred and banishid ... in utter woids. ... kicked off.<br /><br />Now dat dis furum has found its tru identity, where wil all da baseball brain pickas go to now?<br /><br />Wil dey be replased by spellin and gramma brain pickas?<br /><br />Woist yet, watz gonna happen to da investa Slabheads?<br /><br />Dis iz da bess pre war tread ehva........ <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Buy the card for $3 million, then you will have standing to bring a lawsuit and to compel people to testify under oath.<br /><br />Seriously, you are right, but on the flip side what is anyone's affirmative incentive to come forward?

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Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Why not have Rob step forward and post a $100,000 reward to whomever can provide incontrovertible proof that the Wags was trimmed?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>If it were to come out that this card was altered, and worse yet that it was known to be altered when graded and during early sales, at what point does fraud come into play? And who would be on the hook for it?<br /><br />There are now literally millions of dollars in play. For anyone in the chain of ownership, it seems clear that the best and only course is to defend authenticity to the end. The second anyone really admits that it's not as represented, a whole lot of financial dominoes will start falling. Crashing, actually.<br /><br />Which buyer will be the first to allege fraud? None. Because that just messes up their resale and investment. So everyone in the chain is going to shut the heck up no matter what he believes. Maybe Alan Ray - who may be the only person that sold it without misrepresentation. He or Sevchuk (sp?). Everyone else has a keen interest in maintaining that it is a legit 8.<br /><br />And no one else, only the buyers, can do anything legally because no one else has standing. <br /><br />So ... to the legal beagles on the board, who would be on the hook for fraud? And who (subjectively) can or should bring that up?<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />PS - I've just started reading it, so it's too early to ring in with much of an opinion. But the writing style is fairly dramatic, as dull baseball card books go. One of the first things discussed is how nice Bill Mastro was to O'Keefe until the questions started. Then Mastro wouldn't return calls, and it seems pretty clear that there is some kind of grudge there. My early take? The guy genuinely and enthusiastically set out to investigate and write about a truly magnificent scam. But when he couldn't get all the pieces together - couldn't get people to go on record with what they knew - he put together a book anyways. With no before and after pictures, it's hard to imagine that it will get very far.<br /><br />But so far I like it. After three years of reading almost nothing except law school casebooks, I am happy just to read something with large print, double spaced, and butt-simple flow. It don't take much with me these days!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>calleocho</b><p>how many other books have been written about a single baseball card?<br /><br />no other card is more well known by the general public or the collecting one for that matter...probably the most talked about here on the board as well.<br /><br />This book instead of hurting the prestige of the card it has helped to cement its place as the holy grail of all baseball cards.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>larry</b><p>This is a very humerous thread...mainly because there is really nothing that can be gained by either critcizing the book or complimenting the book....<br />It has some accuracy, and some non-accuracy, I know both Mr. Lifson and Mr. Mastro well, we were all good friends back in the "good old days of the hobby" and there is no way either of them are evil doers nor saints. <br />Actually they are both very talented and knowledgable, personable individuals. Both have vibrant and distinct personalities, and they amassed 30-40+ years of first hand experience and depth of knowledge during their careers in this industry. Unfortunately life changes may have deteriorated their friendship, plain and simple.<br /><br /><br />PSA can NEVER admit that the card possibly has been tainted and do not think for a minute that if there was this " blatant proof" available, PSA would still say the card IS ORIGINAL and probably has some guarantee in place to the purchaser. They have to "INSURE" the authenticity of the card and protect the investment. The CARD has more value now than ever due to its "dna" and of the history it has created. The legend that has been propelled exceeds the legendary Wagner himself, and is further fueled by all of us, Mr. O'Keeffe, Rob L, Bill M, Mr. Gretzky, David Hall, Bob Sevchuck, Joe Orlando, B. Siegel, Mike Gidwitz etc.. and the many others that have been part of the story...<br /><br />The cornerstone of the hobby is a reflection of society today, it is the saga we seem never to get tired of, and it is the untold story not THE card that will keep its value soaring. Furthermore, PSA will make sure of that or they will inevitably own it.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Would anyone who has seen the card care to comment on its appearance? From the pictures I have seen a couple of the corners look flared, but I know pictures are not reliable.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I'm heading off to Las Vegas to check the local bookstore to see if they have The Card (sure, no way I'll step into a bookstore). Anyway, have a good Memorial Day Weekend.<br /><br />Just remember that good soldiers have died protecting democracy...let's truly hope that Congress and the Prez get their act together.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Huh? <br /><br />Anyone know if Peter C has internet access while in Vegas or do we get the weekend off?

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Well, I just finished it and I have to say I was hoping for more of an investigative approach. There are a number of angles that could have been developed further but were not. It was not a bad read despite some very strange grammatical errors but it seems like nothing was resolved.<br /><br />I was pleased to see I own 2 of the top 30 or so cards listed in the appendix. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>George H. Counter</b><p>Jay Miller said: <br /><br />"My experience with Bill Mastro has only been positive. I consider him to be a good guy, someone who has helped build the hobby to where it is today, and, most importantly to me,a friend."<br /><br />Jay, I'm sure Bill has been very good to you...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE</a><br /><br />A Priceless piece!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>George, that is truly a hilarious thread. I wish I had best friends like Bill Mastro to secretly fix my torn cards and pass them off as minor restorations!

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Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>I enjoyed the book and think that, while flawed, it makes a contribution to the hobby because it details the history of the Wagner card, I assume for the first time in a mainstream publication. I also assume the story to be true, in essence, at least until someone involved provides a contradictory account in a public forum.<br /><br />The other information provided -- a brief history of cards, grading services, sports memorabilia auctions, and Honus himself -- likely appears elsewhere but is worthy of inclusion in this book, in my view, as it puts the story in context.<br /><br />The significant downside of the book, in my opinion, is its underlying theme that fraud pervades the hobby. This strikes me as overstated for dramatic effect. Also, the authors' support for the Cobb/Edwards card appears ill-informed and misguided.<br /><br />Finally, the authors appear to respect the expertise of this Board, which is mentioned numerous times and makes me think I'm not totally wasting my time in lurking.<br /><br />Hope to see all at the National. Mark

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />Your posting on the wrong thread. This is the side-tracked, The Card, thread. Please don't post anything relevant to the book. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter