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05-23-2007, 09:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>what'd i just win on ebay?<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110127401715&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=001" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110127401715&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=001</a><br /><br />team card of NY Giants. Is it really from 1908? Why does it say "Christy Mathewson" and not "NY Giants team"? I realize its an off-brand grading company.<br />thanks for any info (real, fake, great deal, i wasted $25, etc)<br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-23-2007, 10:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Jerry</b><p>You bought a picture cut out of a Spalding Baseball Guide. Grading company is a scam ran by the people that list these cutouts.

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05-23-2007, 11:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>This last half of my life I've been doing a better job of learning from my mistakes. I think one day you'll think of this purchase as a mistake. And a $25 lesson is an affordable one... if you learn from it.<br /><br />Spalding issued several books each year about sports. For baseball, among others, were their Guides (kinda greenish yellow) and their Records (red). The guides seem to have more photos, the records more stats, for most of the leagues, major and minor. I'm partial to the Records, the Guides seem slightly more popular.<br /><br />For $25 to $45 you could buy a 1908 Guide without its cover, in rough shape. The page with that Giants photo would have been ok. I'd suggest you buy a guide, either on eBay or ABE books or Alibris, or from some card or book dealer. Then you'll see what they are. They're helpful if you try to read up on what players were doing way back when. Looking at a 1908 guide would help you understand why some cards are in T206, and why some players lack cards...<br /><br />So in a way, this could eventually be $25 well spent... for what you'll learn, not for that Giants picture.

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05-24-2007, 12:42 AM
Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Is there no way an end can be put to these auctions? Does making up a grading company and encapsulating your own cards violate some sort of rule? If it doesnt it sure should..

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05-24-2007, 12:53 AM
Posted By: <b>RC Mckenzie</b><p>It's mind boggling that a person who would sell a cutout from a magazine for $25 could have over 18,000 positives with no negatives.

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05-24-2007, 07:14 AM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Even though it says "100% Positive" feedback, a closer look will show you that he really does have a few negatives. Thus, his percentage was probably 99.7 and got rounded up to 100.<br /><br />Basically the guy sells modern glossy crap by the truckload, which is where he gets his 99.5% positive comments.<br /><br />Then... on rare occasions (and with no offense to the original poster)... someone falls for his bullcrap scam and buys a phony magazine cutout.<br /><br />I'm guessing that this is where all of his negative feedback comes from.<br /><br />Hopefully the poster will leave negative feedback.

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05-24-2007, 07:31 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Why should the poster leave negative feedback? The listing clearly states what is being sold. <br /><br />As for the seller's feedback he has only 9 negatives out of over 34,500 feedbacks. Do the math. That's 99.99974%. Looks like 100% to me. Pretty impressive in my book.<br /><br />Edit for math.

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05-24-2007, 08:20 AM
Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>Well, i thought it might an insert or supplement from a magazine or something, didn't realize it was a cutout. I still like the photo. My fault for not asking ya'll before I purchased it. I won't leave negative feedback (unless something goes wrong) but I am surprised he calls it a "card", when its nothing close to one.<br /><br />I'll probably take it out of the cheesy little encapsulation (looks like a screwdown holder with a sticker on each end) and find some way to put it with other photos.<br /><br />thanks for everyone's replies, another lesson learned<br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-24-2007, 08:24 AM
Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Item is listed under "Cards ... Other Graders" and seller stated "We have scanned the actual <u>card</u> for you to review so you can come to your own conclusion." He is clearly offering a card for sale but the item is a <u>page</u> cut out of a book. It's a running scam on eBay. The guy makes a big deal about his reputation for fairness and honesty. Maybe write him and put his pretty words to the test. Neg him, he'll neg you. Not worth raising one's blood pressure imho trying to tear the crap out of the guy in 80 letters or less. The eBay feedback system is a crock.<br /><br />There's an essload of predators circling The Hobby and we've probably all been a victim at one time or another. Welcome to the club. <br />

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05-24-2007, 08:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>What if the buyer contacted the seller, and pointed out to him that it is a photo from a book (seller already knows this) and that it is NOT a card, so the buyer would like to mail it back and get a refund, less postage, since the item was misrepresented as being a card...

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05-24-2007, 09:24 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't want to stick up for this guy because I hate what he is doing, but the definition of a card is kind of broad.<br /><br />Even the first entry in Webster's reads: A small, flat, usu. rectangular piece of stiff paper or thin pasteboard...<br /><br />So while it is clearly not a baseball card, he can hide behind the definition of card. I don't think ebay can do anything if he pictures the product and delivers it to the winning bidder, no matter how reprehensible this is. I wish buyers used more common sense, but what can you do.

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05-24-2007, 09:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Joe</b><p>I believe this monstrosity is brought to us by the fine folks who are slabbing and grading pages from the Quaker Oats Babe Ruth flip book. Imagine cutting up a delightful collectible to increase its value! Well...uh...look at the last few eBay sale prices of a complete book. SOMEONE is buying into this concept. People BELIEVE in these things because they've been AUTHENTICATED. How very, very sad (except for those who are profiting, I suppose)<br /><br />

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05-24-2007, 09:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Steve M.:<br /><br />The last month is what I used for his "current" status on EBay.<br /><br />He has 2 negatives out of 633.<br /><br />That comes to 99.7 %<br /><br /><br />And my guess is that 2 people fell for his scam in the past 6 months -- those being the two negatives.<br /><br />But I was just guessing off the top of my head in response to how a guy this slimy could obtain a high feedback rating.

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05-24-2007, 10:42 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>“guy this slimy”<br /><br />“this monstrosity”<br /><br />“how reprehensible this is”<br /><br />“item was misrepresented”<br /><br />“we've probably all been a victim at one time or another.”<br /><br />“modern glossy crap”<br /><br />“company is a scam”<br /><br />“Is there no way an end can be put to these auctions”<br /><br />“It's mind boggling”<br /><br />“bullcrap scam”<br /><br />_________________________ <br /><br />Did I miss anyone?<br /><br />_________________________ <br /><br />My take on this is “to each his own”. What do I care what may interest someone else? Are we so elitist that if the items being sold do not fit into what we consider to be worthy that we can take a dump on the seller and inferably on the 18,000 plus unique buyers who have purchased from him? Smacks of blatant snobbery to me.<br /><br />And finally on this feedback issue the seller has 3/10,000 negatives during the last year. His negative ratio per all of his transactions is 1:3,833. I stand by my comment above.<br />

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05-24-2007, 10:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>If you havent paid for the item yet, i might say that after receiving some opinions you have found out the item was misrepresented and that you are not obligated by law to complete the transaction. Im sure, considering the fraudulent grading company and not listing that its a cutout from a magazine, this would stand. And while it may be true the definition of a baseball card is broad, i dont know of anyone, besides those who sell these as cards, would say these are baseball cards. Yes, he should've asked these questions before bidding, but that still doesnt mean he should pay for something thats been misrepresented. He read the description and took it at face value, something many buyers do.

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05-24-2007, 10:51 AM
Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>these are all over the market place, do you know you can get a decent Spalding Guide for about 100.00 that shows loads of pictures of teams and ads - these types of scams are just what the hobby needs to address - the question is how do you stop it.<br /><br />Take care Jimmy<br />

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05-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We as hobbyists recognize it as a scam, but the seller may have carefully worded his description in such a way that ebay is powerless to stop him.<br /><br />The only remedy is to not buy the stuff.

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05-24-2007, 11:36 AM
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...is just as at fault. He is thinking he can pick up an authentic 1908 Giants card for $25.00. Ebay is populated by suckers who think they're the only ones that see a really great find and then got lucky or won the lottery on one of these lots. This sort of thinking is perpetuated by the ebay winners, who show their authentic T206 Cobb cards that they somehow BINed for $100 on a lazy Wednesday afternoon. <br /><br />I really have very little patience for the uneducated buyer who waits until after he plays the lottery to find out if he won because he's afraid to tip off other bidders to his amazing find.<br /><br />These are the same people who are bidding $200 on T206 Wagner reprints, but not asking questions about authenticity from other collectors for fear that they will tip off other collectors to this amazingly discounted specimen.

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05-24-2007, 01:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Well, sorry we cannot all be experts immediately upon entering the hobby! I too, was fooled into buying some of this crapolla early on in my collecting - those Whitman puzzle pieces - because I was just starting and thought, perhaps, these were simply a less sought after type, and that's why the prices were low. The reason this is such a believable scam, is because of the fake grading company! I didn't know PSA, SGC, or any other service from Adam when I began. Had never heard of this forum either. If it was graded, everything was supposedly legit. Why wouldn't it be? These cut-outs are being misrepresented as cards, period. It is wrong.

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05-24-2007, 01:08 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ken is correct that these sellers prey on the novice. The experienced collector is not their customer.

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05-24-2007, 01:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Joe Tocco</b><p>Better edit that for math one more time. 9 negatives out of 34,500 is 99.974%<br /><br />Not that it's really relevant, just sayin <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-24-2007, 02:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>While my father may be a PhD Nuclear Engineer and my son Nick a MIT grad I got skipped over when it comes to math. Guess that's why I became a lawyer.<br /><br />I calculated the feedback at .00026 overlooking that the decimal place belongs at .026. My bad <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />(But still, not bad feedback <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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05-24-2007, 02:42 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I agree that a great many novices get duped by this type of auction. I also believe that there are collectors of this material and collectors of reprints.<br /><br />Although picture cut outs and reprints are not among the material which we collect, CWYWC.<br /><br />There are some collectors who find it difficult to believe that anyone knowingly would purchase a card graded below EX.<br /><br />There are some collectors who find it difficult to believe that anyone knowingly would purchase a recent high grade card.<br /><br />Etc. There are collectors with different budgets and other preferences.<br /><br />I think that this seller has a legitimate place in our hobby, but should let those "accidentally" duped out of the deal. Or better yet, not employ misleading tactics, which could lead the more suspicious among us to question his motives.

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05-24-2007, 02:52 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Gilbert- I think the slab is very misleading. It is not an accepted grading company; it's just the seller slabbing and authenticating his own cut outs. That is the worst part of this whole thing. The novice collector is led to believe that because it is in a holder with an official looking label that he seemingly has some sort of buyer's protection.

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05-24-2007, 03:03 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Simple rules for beginners wanting to collect cards is a to buy either a Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards (Krause Publications) or Beckett Almanac and buy cards listed there. Also buy only graded cards in PSA, SGC, GAI or Beckett holders-- they grade genuine cards.<br /><br />From a common sense standpoint, a genuine 1908 baseball card with the Christy Mathewson on it can't be found for $25. At minimum, another 0 would be added to the price.<br /><br />But, $25 is a relatively inexpensive mistake, and if the collector learns from it will save him more than $25 when purchasing cards in the future. Making mistakes and learning from them is part of learning in all fields. Do you know how Edison discovered material that worked as a light bulb filament? It involved first discovering a lot of material that didn't work as a light bulb filament.

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05-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Yes Barry, of course you are correct. It is his intent to defraud the unsuspecting. But once having done so, the price probably lures some of them into continuing. It is in a way what I do. I do not sell my cards, I do not purchase large lots, I just buy what I want. And every year what I want costs more and more. Because I have chosen to collect items which have appreciation potential.<br /><br />But I remember collecting rocks, bottle caps, feathers and other things which pleased me. Actually baseball, coins and non-sports cards were also collected around then. Some turned out to have upside. Hey Mom! Whatever happened to my bottle caps, marbles, Dixie Lids and other stuff? And thanks for holding on to the cards! But what about those metal soldiers and vehicles which I loved to crash?<br /><br />There is no harm in collecting something which has limited or no investment value.<br /><br />I do not want to defend this scoundrel. I do support collecting for the fun of it.<br /><br /><br /><br />And Dave, when I first came here, you had a novice's guide posted in the banner area. That guide helped me immesurably. It taught me to be a little over wary, but largely because of it I have avoided getting taken (much). I've also lost out on some good opportunities, but that goes with the lesson. Thank you.

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05-24-2007, 08:27 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's fair to say you can collect anything you want. Even a collection of lint would qualify.<br /><br />But any card, or even magazine cut out, must be graded by an impartial third party. It can never be graded by the owner, which was done in this case. That is outright fraud.

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05-24-2007, 08:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Barry, don't beat around the bush or mince words here, state your feelings clearly. If you think that somebody is doing wrong, I will join your posse, anyday.<br /><br />Do we have a plan? I say lynch him! No, stone him first, then lynch him, then burn him.

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05-24-2007, 08:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I mean afterall, somebody surely has mentioned his activities to eBay, yet he persists.<br /><br />He is turning potential hobbiests away from our hobby faster than we can recruit them.<br /><br />And they are our lifeblood.<br /><br />And certainly the rationale I proposed is very weak. So, what is eBay thinking? Income?<br /><br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />If the above is the story, one attempt at a solution may be the press.

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05-24-2007, 08:38 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are you joking with me, or are you serious?

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05-25-2007, 02:59 AM
Posted By: <b>Ken W.</b><p>Well, I'm not sure what can be done, but I am, indeed, serious when I say that this needs to be stopped! For Christ's sake, you CAN'T GRADE YOUR OWN CARDS, DAMNIT!!! Who could possibly argue otherwise? Isn't there some sort of licensing required or something to be certified as a genuine third party authenticator? I have no idea. Where are the lawyers? I'm pretty sure, from the similar look of the grading stickers, that this guy may be the one and only guy perpetuating this scam. He used to call it AAA, now it is some other BS anagram. We bitch and moan about ALL the general scumbags out there on ebay, but maybe if someone got personal with THIS guy, everyone's collecting experience would improve, not just the newbies'. The world is what WE make it. As you can see, I'm still pissed about the $100 I gave this dude. If someone ever tries to pick my pocket for that much again ...