We All Know That Ty Cobb Is In the HOF... [Archive]

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05-19-2007, 02:38 PM

Posted By: peter chaoBut does he meet the Hall's current moral character requirement. Of course, that assumes we know what the Hall's current moral character requirement is...by the way I'm not sure what it is...so let me know when you figure it out. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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05-19-2007, 02:56 PM

Posted By: JimBThere was a great article in SCD last year about the potential misrepresentations of Cobb's character in the standard American lore. I don't remember all the details but it sounded like the biography that is the foundation of a lot of negative perceptions may have been partially fabricated to sell books. Apparently he did a lot of good with his money, including setting up scholarships for impoverished African American kids in Georgia. Others here may remember more of the details. I am not saying that he was an angel. He was certainly a fierce player (which I respect), but he may not have been the devil many think he was. JimB

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05-19-2007, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Jeff PriznerGreat question Peter, I'm on it!

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05-19-2007, 03:08 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethThe witness does not understand the question, could you restate it? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Josh AdamsObjection, relevance!

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05-19-2007, 03:12 PM

Posted By: peter chaoPeter S., Here it is in a nutshell, if Ty Cobb was going to be on the ballot for the first time next year, would he meet the HOF's moral character requirement. Peter

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05-19-2007, 03:13 PM

Posted By: Josh AdamsObjection, foundation.

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05-19-2007, 03:15 PM

Posted By: peter chaoWe got way too many attorneys on this forum...pretend that your not an attorney. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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05-19-2007, 03:28 PM

Posted By: MarkI recently read somewhere that Ty Cobb was not that bad at all - to the extent he had a few bad personailty traits, it's only because he was a victim of the violent times in which he lived and came from a broken home.

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05-19-2007, 03:29 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovCheck your facts Peter C., there is no "moral character" requirement. Only banishment [as in Joe Jax and Gamblin' Pete] precludes admission. Frank

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05-19-2007, 03:34 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesStep 1 in pretending that you are not an attorney: put your hands in your own pockets.

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05-19-2007, 03:35 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI don't think Cobb's personality was an issue when he was inducted. With today's steroid users, it's not a moral issue, but an ethical and legal one. McGwire didn't get 23% of the vote because he was moody or a bad teammate; he was basically booted out because he cheated. Cobb was not well liked, his teammates pretty much hated him, but he played by the rules (save a few spikes flying now and then).

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05-19-2007, 03:39 PM

Posted By: MarkJapan actually has two baseball halls of fame. One grants automatic admission for certain lifetime statistical accomplishments (e.g., 200 wins) and the other emphasizs character and leadership above statistics.

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05-19-2007, 03:42 PM

Posted By: joe brennanIf morality was a requirement to get into the HOF, there would be a short or shorter list. Being a good person has nothing to do with baseball skills, or any athletic contest for that matter. Does Babe Ruth and O.J. come immediately to mind? As far as these lesser than perfect human's being idols or hero's for kids. Let the kids look no farther than their parents for people to look up to. In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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05-19-2007, 03:42 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI'm not sure that the HOF's requirements are all that different now than they were in voting for the inaugral class. As Frank pointed out, if you were caught cheating and banned from the game you couldn't get in (Joe Jax) back then and if caught gambling and banned from the game you can't get in now (Rose). There must have been a reason Cobb received a higher percentage of votes than Babe Ruth despite the fact that Ruth was beloved and Cobb disliked by his peers. My guess is that Cobb would receive a higher vote total today than he received back then.

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05-19-2007, 03:52 PM

Posted By: peter chaoI've just checked the Hall's requirements for election...it says character should be taken into account. I assume they mean good character. I suppose this means that good character is one of the factors to be taken into account but it is not a requirement. Peter

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05-19-2007, 04:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePsst Jeff- it's "inaugural" (I hold you to a higher standard <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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05-19-2007, 05:06 PM

Posted By: jay behrensMark Fydrich had character. He's a first ballot shoe in <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-19-2007, 05:15 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAhh, Barry, my kingdom for a 'u.' <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 06:10 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, It's an 'u.' <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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05-19-2007, 06:41 PM

Posted By: Jeff PriznerActually, a 'u' is correct. The letter 'u' begins with a consonant sound. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: barrysloateA "u" is correct. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 07:59 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, your wrong. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 08:20 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethPeter C., you get a "f" in grammar. I mean AN "f". LOL. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 09:08 PM

Posted By: DMcDits grammer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-19-2007, 09:46 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIf there was a strict morals requirement about 2/3 of the 1800s players wouldn't have made it: King Kelly, Anson, Delahanty, etc. Even Billy Sunday was a hootch hauser for most of his baseball career.

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05-20-2007, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Pcelli60With Cobb you had to know your place all times, the evidence points to this..I imagine Cobb a more complexed man past the public lore. Who really knew him? His play on the field, and life off, has still kept him famous over the years, perhaps even relevant in its way! Forget the perceptions. Cobb is the stuff ledgend is made of...

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05-20-2007, 09:10 AM

Posted By: steveIn his biography with Al Stump - Cobb was very much against gambling/fixing games. I don't think he picked bones with folks - unless they picked the fight first, then watch out ! He did go around with women, but so did Ruth to a large degree. Cobb has to get poor marks for being a family man. Competitive like no other. Did try to hurt other players with his spikes flying - kinda like, I know I'm out, but I'll get the last laugh - taste these spikes - often poor sportsmanship - probably biggest rap against him. Cobb gave money to old down and out ballplayers - kind of his own charity His mom shot his dad - mistaken for intruder ??? Almost nobody attended his funeral, hmmmm.

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05-20-2007, 10:24 AM

Posted By: AnonymousI won't comment on all of the stories about Cobb's past which make him out to be a bad person. I will simply note that he did support teammates after their careers were over. Namely, Mickey Cochrane, Lu Blue and, I believe, George Dauss.

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05-20-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSort of how Bonds supports his teammates like Mark Sweeney. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-20-2007, 12:21 PM

Posted By: peter chaoLike the way Bonds supports Greg Anderson...by the way in the Bay Area think that Greg Anderson was paid to keep his mouth shut. Let's put it this way, Greg doesn't have the money to pay for the fancy criminal attorney that he has retained. Peter

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05-20-2007, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Marc S.Could Greg Anderson afford your rates...?

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05-20-2007, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI have a memory of reading somewhere that Geragos agreed to represent Anderson for free...for the publicity. I could be wrong but do not think so.

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05-20-2007, 06:59 PM

Posted By: CyOn the Glory of Their Times CD, Smokey Joe Wood states unequivocally that Cobb (along with Speaker and Wood) bet on baseball and the game definitely was not on the up-and-up. This came from the horses mouth. Is gambling on one baseball game, that was somehow fixed, enough or does the Hall allow superstars to get a break? Cy

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05-20-2007, 07:08 PM

Posted By: peter chaoThe interesting thing about the HOF admissions standards is they say admissions is based on a number of factors including character. But they never define character nor do they state it's importance relative to other factors. But just look at the past how the character factor was applied and look at how it's recently been applied. Like people stated earlier Cobb got more votes than Babe Ruth so basically, character was not weighed heavily with regard to Cobb. But look at what occurred recently with McGwire. He was heavily penalized for being evasive in front of Congress. Doesn't that appear to be a different weighting of the character factor. Peter

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05-20-2007, 08:41 PM

Posted By: AnonymousIf your bringing up Cobb u might as well bring up "the Rajah" as well. Perhpas the games greatest second baseman of all time he also was one of the most controversial. Although he did not drink or smoke, he was a compulsive gambler. One writer characterized him as "a liturgy of hatred," and according to legendary baseball writer Fred Lieb, he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And ofcourse were all famlier with his disdain for the less skillful players around him. Point is, some of the greatest players of the game have lived some awfully checkered lives, its part of the history of baseball, for better or worse.

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05-20-2007, 10:25 PM

Posted By: Ken W.Does anyone know whether or not it is possible for the HOF to boot someone out that has already been inducted? What if evidence surfaced years later concerning cheating, gambling, etc.? Always wondered about that.

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05-20-2007, 10:34 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPeter, isn't possible the sportswriters are smart enough realize that Mac is a one trick pony? Basically, the only hits the guy got were HRs. He wasn't even a one tool player. He couldn't run, he couldn't field. Basically, all he could do was hit HRs. I'm not a big fan of Harmon Killebrew either, and grew up in MN, but at least Killer was playing 2B when came up and even played a little 3B. Being able to hit HRs and do nothing else should not be a good reason to put someone in the HOF. If you are going to put someone in for doing one thing good, then lets put Jose Morales adn Rusty Staub in as pinch hitters. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-20-2007, 10:56 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJay, I think you hit it right on the nose, with McGwire it wasn't really a matter of character. His only qualification for the HOF was his 500 plus home runs. His testimony before Congress cast doubt on his only qualification, that's the reason he wasn't voted in. It had little to do with his character. Peter

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05-20-2007, 11:03 PM

Posted By: peter chaoKen, It will never happen. After he was elected to the Hall of Fame, Gaylord Perry admitted to throwing the spitball. Nothing happened. Also, look at OJ Simpson. He lost a wrongful death action the Football Hall of Fame never talked about getting rid of him. Probably, Baseball Hall of Fame will follow their lead. Peter

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05-21-2007, 08:30 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGuys, McGwire's failure to gain entry into the Hall had nothing to do with his sole ability to hit homeruns; it was due to his embarrassing performance in front of Congress. Had he been as popular at the time of the vote as he was while on route to hitting 70 HRs that one season, he would have been elected on the first ballot.

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05-21-2007, 09:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMcGwire also didn't miss gaining entry by just a few votes; he got his clock cleaned. The voters, who represent a large and diverse group, were near unanimous in that his taking steroids, and his performance before Congress, very well may keep him out of the Hall forever.

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05-21-2007, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethSaying that all McGwire could do was hit home runs is like saying Sandy Koufax had only two pitches.

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05-21-2007, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, true. If a guy can "only" hit homeruns and does so 583 times, that singular skill (along with the 1400 or so RBI that come with it) is enough to gain first ballot entry into the HOF. Unless, you're McGwire or Raffy.

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05-21-2007, 10:52 AM

Posted By: howardBig Mac played some 3B also. Killebrew was a bonus baby and came to the majors at 17 or 18. Like most bonus babies he was very athletic and the hope was that he would learn to play a difficult infield position which would make him even more valuable than he was. It turned out he was inept at the position and like so many other young "infielders" (Mantle, Murcer, Tartabul, etc..) he was moved to a less demanding position(s). The point is that neither Mac or Killer were good defensive players.

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05-21-2007, 11:04 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, I have trouble with what your saying. I agree that Big Mac's lack of candor before Congress was a big factor for his rejection by HOF voters. But it's the HOF voters way of saying Big Mac you should have shown more guts before Congress. Mac you simply lacked character. Now if this condemnation of Mac's character had been applied to Cobb, Ty would have never gotten in on the first ballot. Remember, popularity has never been part of the criteria applied by HOF voters. If it was, again Cobb would not have gotten in on the first ballot. Peter

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05-21-2007, 11:09 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPeter, I'm guessing, but perhaps the HOF committee refuseal to vote Mac in had more to do with his tacit admission of steroid use, i.e., cheating.

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05-21-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, Also remember that it took a long time for Killebrew to get into the Hall. Almost unprecedented for a 500+ home run guy and somebody so popular. Perhaps the voter's saw Big Mac as being the same class of ballplayer. McGwire is deserving but not on the first ballot. Peter

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05-21-2007, 03:25 PM

Posted By: howardThat's a great point, Peter. Another 500 HR guy had to wait about ten years for induction was Eddie Matthews which was even more puzzling because at the time he retired he was arguably the greatest third baseman in Major League history.

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05-21-2007, 04:22 PM

Posted By: Ken W.I heard on a Cardinals broadcast that McGwire worked alot with Chris Duncan's hitting during the off-season. Duncan is the Card's pitching coach Dave Duncan's son, and is currently the only Redbird who can hit! I think Big Mac's reputation with everyone, including HOF voters, could take a big step into more positive territory, if he would begin to get more involved with the game - possibly even coaching - and not hide out anymore.

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05-21-2007, 06:11 PM

Posted By: peter chaoI'm curious, does anybody have a sports page from the 1930's was their any discussion about whether Cobb met the character standards for the Hall of Fame. Peter

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05-21-2007, 08:17 PM

Posted By: RobAnd on the 1st ballot too. Murphy was an exemplary citizen and best power hitter of the 1980's, and compares well with McGwire. Murphy was 1st or 2nd in HR's in the league 5 times, McGwire made that achievement 6 times. Murphy was in the top 2 in RBI's 3 times, McGwire just 2 times. Murphy v McGwire on MVP's awards: 2-0. Murphy v McGwire on Gold Gloves: 5-1. The edge goes to Murphy.

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05-21-2007, 08:23 PM

Posted By: jay behrensCharacter really wasn't much of an issue back then. Basically, if you didn't get banned from the sport, then you got in on your abilities. As for Mac being more than a one trick pony....PUHLEEZ!!! I watched him from the day he came up with As, having season tickets and living in the Bay Area at the time. He was an absolute butcher at 1B. About the only major leaguer I saw slower than him was Tim Wallach. I never saw Ernie Lombardi play, but he had a reputation as being the slowest player in the game. He had on freak year where he hit over .300. He is slower version, worse fielding version of Dave Kingman on steroids. Just imagine how many HRs Kingman could have hit if steroids were around in his day. He would have really lived up to his nickname King Kong. So no, Mac doesn't belong in the HOF based on his stats. Everyone says that HOFers are supposed to be the best of the best. Mac wasn't, plain and simple. He was horrific in all categories except hitting HRs, which is incredibly overrated. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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05-22-2007, 04:00 AM

Posted By: DylanBefore everyone's so quick to say Mcgwire hit all those homeruns because of the roids let not forget that a much thinner Mcgwire in his rookie season hit 49 home runs. Its not like Bonds case who came into the league as a mildly powerful hitter and then became THE power hitter.

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05-22-2007, 08:59 AM

Posted By: EdMere character is NOT the issue. I appreciate good character as much as anyone. But for HOF purposes, character is relevant only as it relates to the integrity of the game itself. Perhaps the Cobb-Speaker affair should have been investigated and disciplined more thoroughly. But the fact that he had a loathsome personality, often evidenced by off the field antics, should NOT be a reason to question his admission to the hall. Twenty four years of .367 speaks for itself. Rose crossed the line. Steroid users crossed the line. These actions threaten the integrity of the game. That said, give me 8 Pete Roses and a solid pitcher against ANY all-time team anyone can compose. Still, Bart Giamatti did the right thing.