misprinted caramel cards [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

View Full Version : misprinted caramel cards

Archive

02-21-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: leonThis is what happens when you don't collect something but find it kind of neat....if anyone wants to show some caramel print freaks they are fun to see....I picked this up a day or two ago from the Just Collect guys...(heck, it might have been last night....darn addiction)..BTW, I love the big borders...for all you newbies here's a hint...look for big borders (especially) on high condition cards....stay away from little teeny borders, slab or not... ..best regards <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171998055.JPG">

Archive

02-21-2007, 03:01 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI nearly bought this one a while back but forgot to put in my snipe on it, cool card. And its all about the big borders, i dont trust those small crisp ones.

Archive

02-21-2007, 03:43 PM

Posted By: JimBWill post the ghost of M. Brown when I get to my home computer tonight. JimB

Archive

02-21-2007, 03:50 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- that's still my all-time favorite caramel misprint card- it's just so weird and eerie looking!

Archive

02-21-2007, 04:13 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonHeck, that card looks normal when I look at it through my 3-D glasses -<img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Steve

Archive

02-21-2007, 04:15 PM

Posted By: Bruce MacPhersonHere is a copy of my Stone. I have owned two of these cards and both showed the same offset printing. I wonder why since all of my other 92 Nadja's are fine. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1172016886.JPG">

Archive

02-21-2007, 04:20 PM

Posted By: peter ullmanthat's wierd! 2 almost identical stone printing errors! Wierd. pete in mn

Archive

02-21-2007, 04:33 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd I dont have a scan but the only Nadja card i have is Stone and it looks just like those 2 cards which is why i bought it in the first place

Archive

02-21-2007, 04:49 PM

Posted By: robert aBruce, Could be nadjas were printed one player to a sheet and Stone's sheet was misaligned. Rob

Archive

02-21-2007, 05:10 PM

Posted By: Bruce MacPhersonI bet you are right. I am just so used to seeing the uncut sheets from later years with multiple players, I didn't even think about the possiblity of a single player sheet. Leon, sorry to hijack the thread.

Archive

02-21-2007, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Damian AndersonI recently won the same card and it has a very similiar print to it. Sorry I don't have a good scan. I am betting this is a tought card to find in good focus. Here is the auction, my grade on it just popped from PSA today, obviously a 1. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300070764454&rd=1&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300070764454&rd=1&rd=1</a> Be Well, Damian

Archive

02-21-2007, 08:09 PM

Posted By: Glennpicked this one up on the BST a few months ago <img src="http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1299/doylekn8.png">

Archive

02-21-2007, 09:07 PM

Posted By: JimB<img src="http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8471/e93brownerroryg8.jpg"> <img src="http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9023/e93brownpsa9cutvx1.jpg"> edited to add regular M. Brown

Archive

02-21-2007, 09:16 PM

Posted By: leonBrown looks like he saw a ghost.......great card...

Archive

02-21-2007, 09:31 PM

Posted By: BcDanielsI had that card for 15 years Leon before I sold it to Koos raw for $85. Thing cracks me up! Of all the Nadja cards there are several Stones out there like that! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-22-2007, 09:07 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Brown looks like he saw a ghost.......great card..." Won't go into details but I can almost guarantee you that is a doctored card. So much so I would bet money (a lot) on it. Hope it didn't cost too much.

Archive

02-22-2007, 09:17 AM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- how was it doctored?

Archive

02-22-2007, 10:22 AM

Posted By: Bill KBoy, it sure is easy to come on to the board semi-anonymously and cast "doctored" accusations at cards. How about actually giving us some insight, or are you actually expecting someone to step up and bet you money that you are right? Phenomenal card...kevin is a joke. Bill My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>

Archive

02-22-2007, 10:55 AM

Posted By: leonHere's that fine line between anonymity and being known. I personally feel that "Kevin" (hi Kevin) should come forward with definitive information as to why he is making that accusation, or his full name, or preferably both. I don't think, in this instance, I would mandate it as a rule. However, personally I take people more seriously when I know who they are. I am not saying "Kevin" is lying or is necessarily wrong, but we don't know who he is so that leaves room for skepticism. best regards

Archive

02-22-2007, 10:58 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Boy, it sure is easy to come on to the board semi-anonymously" It's because of comments like this that I have avoided this board for so long (as have so many others) and will more than likely continue to avoid it. I'm really not making doctored "accusations"...it's more or less fact based and "higly probable." Any insight would only lead to continued and unwanted comments and, as I said, I will not go into details. "Phenomenal card...kevin is a joke". Thanks again for your kind words. Kevin Saucier

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Posted By: DaveI think the majority of people here would want to hear your reasoning for saying the card is doctored. Because you don't like what Bill said you won't go into it??? And speaking of "this is the reason I've stayed away from this board so long".....well, you come out of nowhere and accused the Brown card of being altered. Do you expect people to just start agreeing with you? Of course most reply's are going to be "what in the world are you talking about" until you say what in the world your talking about...

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:11 AM

Posted By: leonJust so you know my post was not a personal attack. Put yourself in the place of who owns the card. If someone, that wasn't known to the board, said that your card was most likely doctored wouldn't you want to know why, and who was saying it? It seems like you probably have some really good hobby knowledge. I hope you will continue to share in the future too....To me, half the fun of the hobby is the camaraderie....take care.. edited horrible spelling

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsWhy does it matter what Kevin's last name is, if he has an opinion that the Brown card has been altered? So if Kevin posted his last name, along with any other identifying personal information, you would all take his word for it? But because he doesn't say his last name, the substance of his post is suspect? Doesn't make much sense to me. However, I would like to know, how can you (Kevin) tell from the scan that the card is, in fact, altered? A little more knowledge never hurt.

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:16 AM

Posted By: robert aWouldn't matter to me if this card is altered. This one's just for fun. Kevin, Hope you stick around to experience some of the positive aspects of the board. This board doesn't have one collective personality. It's a bunch of people with many different opinions, philosophies, interestes, etc. Rob

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:20 AM

Posted By: BrianI know Kevin -- even met him once. He is very short, but not bashful. I am sure he will be back with details. Brian

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: andy beckerdidn't kevin saucier play for the tigers in the early 1980's? the card is obviously altered.....it is "skinned" on the front. what amazing technology the card doctors have these days.....the ability to "peel" a picture. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> fantastic card jimb....

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: leonI would agree that it's more important to know why someone thinks something is altered than who they are. Knowing who someone is can give more credibility though.....but again, my main thrust would be the "why" part... edited to say I just wanted to say "thrust"... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:33 AM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- I know the owner is very proud of his M. Brown card, and if you do think it is doctored, which is something that has never come up before, it would only be fair to back up your claim. Anyone can throw around that this or that card has been doctored. And if in fact you have made it a point to stay away from the board, why make your first post one that is both negative and likely to be met with some skepticism? Hardly the best way to introduce yourself, and I don't think it was unreasonable for board members to take you to task. A Kevin Saucier played in the majors from 1978-82, mostly with the Phillies. Is that you?

Archive

02-22-2007, 11:56 AM

Posted By: andy beckeri believe that kevin saucier's 1981 topps card pictures him with the tigers. i really don't remember him other than the 81 topps.

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:14 PM

Posted By: KevinIt may just be a futile point. Any opinion made with "this particular" card would probably still be met skepticism...as expected. As long as the owner is pleased with it, that's all that matters. I've posted a few times here recently and may have been outted on this thread near the bottom: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1170334983/last-1170575364/Collector%27s+Association" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1170334983/last-1170575364/Collector%27s+Association</a> Kevin

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:32 PM

Posted By: leonI politely disagree. If you give the facts/thoughts behind your statements it will go a long way towards acceptance and thwart much of the skepticism. Just saying that you believe a card is altered WILL be met with skepticism as it should, imo. No different than if I make a statement with no corroborating facts, and I am fairly well know to the board. Also, in all fairness, you weren't really "outed" in the thread you posted unless I missed something. I never saw your last name (and no, I don't really care about that) nor did I see more details of your statements except you asking Jim C to email you for details. Please take my thoughts in the utmost respectful way as I am not trying to demean you. My guess is you know more than I do and have been doing this longer than me...not that that matters too much..Thanks again for participating. It's this sort of debate that makes this board most interesting.....kind regards

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- I wouldn't worry about being met with skepticism. Worst that could happen is someone will disagree with you. I for one would like to hear what has been done to this card, and I will listen to what you have to say with an open mind (though I may have a different point of view).

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:42 PM

Posted By: Bill KKevin, Saying you were a joke was wrong...my apologies for that, it's not acceptable behavior, but I do still question the manner in which you threw out the idea that the E93 Brown was altered. Giving a blanket statement such as that, on top of asking for bets will only garner you skepticism. If indeed you are renowned for your skills at detecting altered cards please educate us. Everyone here wants to learn (well, most everyone). Sincerely, Bill My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a</a>>

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: andy beckerhi kevin, i too probably owe an apology. sorry if i misjudged your intent. i would really like to hear more regarding the altering of the card. regards andy

Archive

02-22-2007, 12:51 PM

Posted By: E, DanielKevin posted a card which he explained had been put through the proverbial wringer, including heavy bleaching. Glue/residue had been removed, as well as general staining, creasing, etc., and the card had then been slabbed by PSA. Kevin made the point that he had done this as an experiment of sorts, many times over, and that the grading community was not up to catching the alterations. I'm wondering if through this experience Kevin you found layers of ink were removed seperately, leaving ghosted images, and this is the basis of your post? If so, undoubtedly all would be interested and would have much to learn about your findings. Sincerely Daniel

Archive

02-22-2007, 01:02 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf in fact this is true, and the whole central portion including the name has been bleached, how does one explain that the belt is still visible?

Archive

02-22-2007, 01:30 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI was trying to work out the missing colors etc. and any other clues. Clearly the Yellow is completely absent - leaving a cyan'ish background, and also I thought the red missing....but then I noticed on the top rim outline of his cap, there indeed lies a little red outline - as can be seen in the correct image too. These t206's were black and white 'photo style' images upon which color was laid down, correct? So it would seem possible at least, that perhaps the correct (even if just stumbled upon) solvent would remove that initial b&w image more easily than perhaps the other colored inks used, and that the cyan somehow held on more tenaciously, with just a smidge of magenta too...i think perhaps Barry - the belt (and his cap) is simply cyan with a little magenta thrown in to darken it. There is also a toned 'wash' seemingly on the card that may have been residue of a chemical peel... Just conjecture on my part, but problem solving even an incorrect hypothesis can be fun. Daniel

Archive

02-22-2007, 01:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf all that is true, that is some pretty major work. I have never seen the card in person, only a scan of it. I would be interested to hear how Jim B. responds to this, since he at least has the ability to look at the card under a loupe and see if any of this makes sense.

Archive

02-22-2007, 01:50 PM

Posted By: JimBI will grab it out of the safety deposit box and look closely. Will report back later. So far, all there is is an utterly unsubstantiated accusation. My first though is that if this were a scam someone is doing to make money, then (1) why have we not seen more of them? and (2) Why not do it on T206s where people pay crazy money for printing freaks? I got this card relatively cheaply in a Lew Lipset auction. JimB

Archive

02-22-2007, 02:00 PM

Posted By: E, DanielMaybe no scam Jim, maybe just someone screwing around altering cards who then decided to dump it on the market.... Or of course, this could all just be C@*P and the card is actually as reported - a printing error <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Daniel

Archive

02-22-2007, 02:47 PM

Posted By: martin dalzielKevin, In the other thread that you referenced you said "IMHO having the knowledge will lead to making an educated decision based on clear objective findings but will not be a cure all. In fact it just may complicate matters. Nonetheless the info needs to get out there." I won't speak for others but I absolutely want to make educated decisions based on clear objective findings. I collect a lot of odd-ball stuff and would appreciate your getting whatever info you might have out there (here).

Archive

02-22-2007, 04:48 PM

Posted By: JimBWell I have inspected the card closely under 10X loupe and black light. I see no indications of alteration at all. Unless Kevin can provide any supporting evidence for his unsubstantiated claim, I personally, will disregard it. With all the experts on this board who love to chime in on altered cards, the fact that nobody else sees anything glaring seems to support my conviction that it is an unaltered printing error. JimB

Archive

02-22-2007, 09:26 PM

Posted By: KevinDifferent year, different card, different country, but you get the picture. Plus, keep in mind, this was a rush job. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/ghostcard.jpg"> <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/ghostmountain.jpg"> Unlike many here, I'm no expert..but IMO a blacklight is of little use to examine these and many other alterations. It has a purpose but it's limited to just a few type of inspections. Problem with card doctors is they don't think outside of the box. Enjoy! Kevin Saucier

Archive

02-22-2007, 10:06 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackSince the 1800s, there have been color progression proofs, which are used before final printing to test all the colors combinations for a card (red/blue, yellow/black, etc). Below are progression proofs for a 1975 Hostess card that came from the Topps Archives. The cards have no text. While rare, bizarre color combinations can happen due to intentional proofing or misprinting. <img src="http://www.cycleback.com/colors.jpg"> Other than for personal experiment, I don't know why someone would intentionally remove Brown's facade, as it presumably lowers the value. Most paying collectors prefer Brown to be all there. Also, it appears the background of the finished card is made up of two inks-- olive and yellow. I don't believe it would be possible to remove one color ink while leaving the other. Anything you do to remove one ink is going to remove the other inks at the same area. For the background of Jim's card, it appears only one ink was printed-- which is consistent with other parts of the card not being printed. It's an out of the ordinary card, no doubt, but it seems to me unlikely a forger looking for money would intentionally make a card to look like that.

Archive

02-23-2007, 09:28 AM

Posted By: BrianInteresting example Kevin...

Archive

02-23-2007, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Kevin"I don't believe it would be possible to remove one color ink while leaving the other. Anything you do to remove one ink is going to remove the other inks at the same area." Yes it is. No it won't.

Archive

02-23-2007, 12:06 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIn physically altering a card (as opposed to digitally altering with a graphics program), if a baseball card from 1909 or 1950 has a background area overlapping in two colors of ink: 1) One cannot remove one printer's ink in the area while leaving the other ink unaffected. The two inks are dissolved by the same substance, and if the substance dissolves one ink it will dissolve the other. The liquid used to dissolve lithographic ink is nasty stuff. Telling it to dissolve one color but not the other is like tossing a ham and bologna sandwich into a lion's den and telling the lions to only eat the bologna. 2) Even if it could be done, I have no idea why someone would want to remove the yellow from Jim's card, while leaving the olive. Even if the person was trying to make a forgery, it makes no sense to go to what would be the great technical effort of removing just the yellow ink from the background for a potential buyer who wouldn't care or likely even notice that the background is olive instead of green. It's like a single person eating a motorcycle in 24 hours (and living). I don't believe it could be done and, even if it could, I don't what would possess someone to take his Thursday off to eat a motorcycle. If you're talking about making a modern digitally altered reprint, that would be a different story. Even Topps came out with a blue T206 Honus Wagner.

Archive

02-23-2007, 01:00 PM

Posted By: cmokingDavid, I know Kevin well enough to tell you that the english soccer card he showed is NOT a digital reprint. You stated : "1) One cannot remove one printer's ink in the area while leaving the other ink unaffected." I think Kevin has done just that, although I don't know how he did it.

Archive

02-23-2007, 02:03 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe soccer card has had quite a few inks removed, including in the background. Erasing all the overlapping color inks from a point is different that intentionally removing only one of multiple overlapping inks at a point. It two paper targets are side by side, it's easy to shoot one and miss the other. If the targets are placed touching one directly in front of the other, like pages in a closed book, it's nearly impossible to shoot one and miss the other. Similarly, with overlapping inks at a point, one can easily remove all the inks or none of the inks, but one can't intentionally remove just one while leaving the others behind. That is what I am saying is not possible. As most card collectors know, printers often intentionally overlapped two color inks to make a third color. From observation or knowing what 'primary' colors were used by the printer, a collector can determine where on a Pre-War card inks physically overlap to create an intentionally different color.

Archive

02-23-2007, 11:56 PM

Posted By: Kevin"one can't intentionally remove just one while leaving the others behind" Sure it can...I've done it many times but it does depend on the colors. Look closely at the soccer player, it has the same pre-war baseball card printdots that are blended and overlapping, yet the yellow on the bottom has been removed leaving the dark green/olive and black behind...just like the e93 Brown. btw...some proofs and progressive proofs can be made as well. As mentioned "It may just be a futile point" even when examples are shown. Just imagine what is not being shown <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

02-24-2007, 12:23 AM

Posted By: RC McKenzieKevin, I applaud you on your card doctoring experiments. And, it appers the 3 finger Brown card has undergone the same treatmant as the Wills Footy card. But, is it true that you are this guy...?? if so I'm not gonna post bad hair pics of myself from 1982 <img src="http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/87504327778080_2.jpg">

Archive

02-24-2007, 05:58 AM

Posted By: BrianKevin Saucier is listed as 6'1"

Archive

02-24-2007, 09:41 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Kevin, I applaud you on your card doctoring experiments." Many thanks! I might add, at this point cards such as these are no longer experiments but somewhat perfected alterations used to train and teach. It is by all means only the tip of the iceberg in advanced doctoring techniques. No insult to anyone but many collectors know very little about identifying alterations. Perhaps we have become too complacent on the word of 3rd party authentication companies. Although they do a great job of catching most, they have IMHO, fallen behind the times. Subjects such as trimming and recoloring have become old school. Does anyone know if any of the various grading companies employ (in one way or another) a person who tests the limits and discovers new methods to pass on? How can they identify something if they haven’t done and/or studied it themselves? Again, only an opinion but if a card can be “put through the ringer” and still not get caught, something is wrong. Sadly, I am not the ball player. He is a bit taller than me (; and, from what I hear, lives in Florida…I’m in SoCal. Kevin

Archive

02-24-2007, 10:30 AM

Posted By: Tim RiordanI've been reading this thread and am fascinated by what Kevin is doing. I have to ask, is this being done with selective dye bleaches?

Archive

02-24-2007, 10:43 AM

Posted By: leonMy heartfelt thanks for bringing this subject out into the light. I truly believe this is one of the best things about this board and you are to be commended. I know I don't know as much about altering as I should but it's sort of hard to find information about (for obvious reasons). Thanks again.....

Archive

02-24-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the best graders are trying to learn all these techniques, but it's a challenge for them to keep up, because the bad guys are learning new techniques too. It's a game of cat and mouse.

Archive

02-24-2007, 11:51 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackA key for collectors is provenance. If a collector is wishing to purchase a unique card, in Mint grade or variation, he can ask the seller to show where the card came from. There's a difference between the seller showing the picture and description of the same card in a 1993 Lew Lipset auction, and not being able to show that it even existed two weeks ago. A collector can always say, "Prove to me where it came from." If the collector claims he bought it raw from Rob Lifson three years ago, I suspect Rob would be able to verify the sale said card to said seller if the sale existed. If the collector says he pulled a Mint 10 Mickey Mantle from a 1952 Topps wax pack he bought from Lifson two years ago, he should have no trouble proving he bought a 1952 Topps wax pack from Lifson. It's been often said by card collectors, "Why would anyone pay more for a card because it belonged to Barry Halper?" Well, now you know. It's nice to be able to look at the Sotheby's catalog and know your card hasn't been changed since 1999, and it came directly from the collection of a well known collector ... Compare to a 2007 forger who can offer no proof the card existed last Tuesday. I'm curious if buyers of expensive PSA 10 cards ask the seller to show where the card came from. Even if the seller bought the card already graded from an auction, this should easily proven. Offer a game used Robin Yount jersey to a jersey collector and he'll ask you where the jersey came from-- hoping you'll offer a letter from Yount or the team, or at least a receipt you purchased it from a reputable jersey dealer.

Archive

02-24-2007, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Kevin"My heartfelt thanks for bringing this subject out into the light." You're welcome. ....more to follow

Archive

02-26-2007, 02:46 PM

Posted By: JimBI appreciate the honesty of coming forward but find this very disturbing. In the wrong hands, this knowledge could be disasterous. If Kevin knows for a "fact" that my Brown was doctored, then either he did it himself and unleashed a fraud on the hobby, or can explain here how he knows with such certainty. JimB

Archive

02-26-2007, 05:18 PM

Posted By: Damian Andersonwith everyone on civil terms. Intriguing work, Kevin. I hope you stick around as I think we need more of your expertise. Damian

Archive

02-26-2007, 10:26 PM

Posted By: Kevin"In the wrong hands, this knowledge could be disasterous. If Kevin knows for a "fact" that my Brown was doctored, then either he did it himself and unleashed a fraud on the hobby, or can explain here how he knows with such certainty." I believe the term used was highly probable. It's not for certain, I just pointed out it could be done and gave supporting evidence as you requested. If I was unleashing fraud (knew someone to say it...thank you), I wouldn't post about it and am quite sure no one would ever know. Enjoy your card as it is, a mystery to all! I've been told by a leading hobby professional, that in the wrong hands what I know could change the hobby as we know it. This is why there are things I will not show...and refuse to explain the "how-to's." I don't want to be at a show when a father points and says to his kid, "see that guy, he ruined it all." As King pointed out, no image shown has been digitally made. Just so your card is not singled out I'll leave you with this 1928 R315 Riggs Stephenson ghost print. Is it authentic or doctored? <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/R315.jpg"> Enjoy! Kevin

Archive

02-27-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: AnthonyAfter seeing (in person) some of the work that Kevin has been doing I would never, ever buy something like Nodgrass or Shappe, or pay anything extra for a blank backed card. He is certainly very knowledable about card alterations and how to detect them, and has been more than generous in sharing that knowledge. While I know some of the grading companies have taken him up on his offers of sharing his knowledge and experience with them, some have arrogantly stated they had nothing to learn. Sadly, this has proven to not be the case. Based on what I've seen, heard, and been shown (both slabbed by all 3 companies and raw) I would highly recommend anyone with an interest in unaltered cards pay heed to whatever Kevin is willing to share. Among other things he's made me realize that lower grade cards (what would start out being 1's-3's) have as much or more to gain from alteration than some of the higher graded examples, although the payout for those higher ones is much greater.

Archive

02-27-2007, 04:41 PM

Posted By: KevinAlso posted on another thread. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/toront.jpg">

Archive

03-01-2007, 01:07 AM

Posted By: KevinThe 1931 W517 Lefty Grove Ghost card: <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/leftyghost1.jpg">

Archive

03-01-2007, 04:09 AM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- I have to say your argument becomes more convincing with each picture you provide. This is one more thing that collectors need to be concerned about.

Archive

03-01-2007, 04:58 AM

Posted By: Steve fJust a thought... I lived on Jax Bch, Fla for a few years. My 1971 red Honda 600 was noticably more faded than a neighbors' blue 600. Both the same year, both out in the blazing sun. I don't collect these freaks myself. Do these oddities/doctored cards lack reds and other colors with red derivatives fade as do cars exposed to intense UV light? BTW, That little sedan was a real chick magnet, but dangerously slow (2 cyl. 600cc), especially when on outings with larger girls 8) <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1172667361.JPG">

Archive

03-01-2007, 10:15 AM

Posted By: KevinDo these oddities/doctored cards lack reds and other colors with red derivatives fade as do cars exposed to intense UV light? There is really no comparing modern paint vs. 100 year old ink. Each color of ink has a different reaction in various stages of whatever process is being used. Intense UV light can be a factor. From my experience ink has been through 4 or 5 changes (not counting photo or high gloss) since cards were printed; pre-war, post 1930's, all regular issues post 1948, 1974 - present.

Archive

05-14-2007, 09:46 AM

Posted By: MartyI contacted Jim after I saw him listing the E93 M. Brown card on BST. I owned this card for several years. I told Jim that I would post my story if he wanted, so here it is. I have no records that I have ever sold amything mail order to Jim. I do not know if I have had any dealings with him at a show. I just became aware of this card being offered for sale and of this thread discussing it. I first asked Jim if he would like a history of this card. There are some people that are not interested in the past, but this was not the case. When he said that he would, this is what I sent him. I started doing local Phoenix shows in 1989 with my son. We did new stuff like everyone else. That has changed. I bought this card probably 1995 give or take. It was a walk up to my table. We discussed it as a "sun bleached" card because of the fading. I probably paid $15-25 for the card. I put it in a box like so much of the stuff that I buy. Three or four years ago I came across the card again. I had seen discussions of "ghost" cards on the 54 board. I was at Lew Lipset's looking at his cards to be auctioned. I told him about the card, and he said that he would like to see it or sell it. I posted a scan of the card on the 54 board asking if anyone could help me out on why the card looked like it does. I stated that there was no odor of bleach or anything else on the card. With a 10X loupe, I could see crystals or glaze like on the surface. I stated this also. I have searched the posts on the board and they do not go back far enough. I said that I was taking the card to a Fort Washington show. I had it in my case for the weekend. I pointed it out to some people who did not help me. I showed the card to Terry Knause. His guess was a "proof" card. I showed the card to Mike Baker, GAI. He said that they would not put a number grade on the card but would authenticate it. He would have to do some investigation, which included Terry. GAI had the card for 3 or 4 weeks, big surprise, before they sent it back to me in the holder that it is currently in. I gave the card to Lew to sell. I believe that it sold for about $650, or that was my 90%. I have my records somewhere. I thought that it would go higher being labeled as an "error" card. I recently have been told that there is a chemical called sodium hypochlorite or NaClO that is used in altering that may leave a crystal residue. When I bought the card, the price that I paid was for a faded sun bleached card, not for a "special" error or proof. If the person that I bought the card from was trying to pass it off as rare, he was unsuccessful. If he bought it as a special card, he did not represent it as such and probably lost money. It excited me so much that I left it in a box for several years. If I would have been offered the card as a "special" card at a special card price, I would have passed because I would not have had enough knowledge about the card to pay much more. I still do not have enough knowledge to say if it has been altered or not. I showed it to the "experts" and it was put in the holder. Lew does not own a 10X loupe that I know of so he did not look at it with more than a lower power glass. If it was an experiment or a shot at fraud, who ever did it did not profit from it. I made the most money on the card. The crystals always concerned me, but I did not keep it a secret. When it was put in a holder, I was satisfied, but I liked the idea of proof card more than error card. I thought that if the card was altered, more colors would be gone. This will take the card back about 12 years in time for you. If I can answer anything else for you please let me know. Would I do something like this again? Under the same conditions, absolutly. I bought the card as flawed. Years later, I found the posibility of it being special and did some research. The experts passed judgement and I went with it.

Archive

05-14-2007, 09:51 AM

Posted By: barrysloateEven though the original seller didn't profit by it, the crystals on the surface would concern me. Sometimes people experiment with cards just for the fun of it, or to see how far they can go. I guess to some degree it will remain a mystery.

Archive

05-15-2007, 07:58 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanto clarify something...sodium hypochlorite is BLEACH...and is used in disinfecting root canals by dentists each and every day...as well as card doctors! pete ullman in mn

Archive

05-15-2007, 08:08 AM

Posted By: Rich Klein1989 Upper Deck was legendary for what you could create from the cards with just an eraser. I wonder exactly what Kevin could do with that product Rich

Archive

05-15-2007, 09:14 AM

Posted By: Jim ClarkeCool thread and this is only one I have to contribute.. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1179155635.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1179155657.JPG">

Archive

05-15-2007, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier<"1989 Upper Deck was legendary for what you could create from the cards with just an eraser. I wonder exactly what Kevin could do with that product"> Just about anything you can imagine <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>? Is there something you would like see or have an error card you would like validated (see if it can be created)? With the correct formula one can get very creative with UD cards. No erasers involved as they often lift fibers. I know this is a vintage forum but I though it deserved a comment. That Ames card is just awesome. I can never get enough of those errors. Kevin Saucier

Archive

05-15-2007, 12:51 PM

Posted By: E, Danielthe card that turned me into a vintage sports card collector...... The first 5 cards I bought here in the States 7 years ago were 3 x 86' Topps Jerry Rice cards (2 psa8's and a pro8.5) and 4 93' Pinnacle Derek Jeters (two BGS 8.5's and two BGS 9's). I had begun the late night fiesta that is ebay, and was slowly formulating what collecting sports cards meant to me and what sort of focus I would have. It was a passionate few weeks! Then one night I came across this card - knew immediately there was something 'wrong' with it - quickly confirmed its difference to other 58's, and spent three days stalking the auction. While it was roughly seventy five bucks in outlay, more importantly it shuttled me back in time to a focus I hadn't yet considered, and gave me the confidence to enter the shark filled collecting waters and try win my share. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1179168417.JPG"> Daniel

Archive

05-15-2007, 01:10 PM

Posted By: BradBill Mckechnie~(Ghost Print) Sorry for the blurry scan! <img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/MapleCrispetteV117/D359%20World%20Champions%20E104-1%20Nadja%20Caramel%20/bsc.jpg"> <img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j136/MapleCrispetteV117/25BillMackechnie-1.jpg">

Archive

05-15-2007, 02:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDaniel- is your 58 Aaron really as blue as it shows up on your scan? That is amazing, and the only one I ever saw that wasn't green.

Archive

05-15-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: E, DanielPerhaps a touch deeper cyan/blue even, but nearly exactly that color. It completely missed the yellow ink I believe - can't see any under loupe around the indian head.... Interestingly enough, not long after buying it I attended a Chicago card show - can't remember exactly which amongst the sportsfest/national/etc., but it was out at rosemount, and that weekend they were shooting a live "sportscard roadshow" type television piece. Many of the biggest names were there, and people brought stuff up to first have it deemed worthy or not of the show, and then have it appraised/inspected. Well, I had the card with me so got in line and whoa, they wanted to use it on the show. Well, 2 hours later I was now only one person back from going up in front of camera and they took the card up to the mavens for a looksee and discussion. I watched them all pass it around, stare intently at it, and then shake their head and eyes blankly...... They brought the card back to me and apologized, saying they couldn't use the card on the show because no-one had ever seen this missing ink variation before, therefore couldn't opine a value or any interesting background to it. Disappointed obviously, I took it round to Standard Catalog, Beckett, SGC, heck anyone I could think of, all admired it and passed it to friends, said how neat an item it was but couldn't really tell me anything. SGC wouldn't slab it as a 'missing ink' variation at that time, in fact no-one would. So it is my cornerstone, my collecting building brick, and I love it regardless that it has not brought me fame or fortune or sits rather forgettably in any SGC50 slab without special notation. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Daniel

Archive

05-15-2007, 02:50 PM

Posted By: Denny WalshKevin, I would say that friends and enemies are always won/loss with what ever side you decided to be on. Your showing your handy work only proves that "Knowledge" is once again "Power". My questions to you are as follows: "Who side are you on now?" In the future, Can we rely on what you know and will you aid said collectors of "Freaks, Errors & Proofs"? I was very interested in Jim's Card, But I had reservations about buying it because the "C" was missing from his chest area!(?) It didn't make sense to me that it wouldn't be there! I follow (as much as possible) Ghosts, Freaks, Printing errors, etc... & I'm aware of some of the techniques involved. I thought Bleaching & High UV rays were cominly known about on this board??? Some chemicals will remove the lighter colors and leave the Black & Red faded. No one would contest the(B&R)colors being faded, they only see what is missing, Not what is there. This is actually one of the keys to knowing what is or isn't real! Am I right? As for your 1928, I can't answer your question because I've never seen a real one... My guess is that it's Altered though... Life's Grand, Denny Walsh

Archive

05-15-2007, 02:52 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDaniel- that is a funny story. I guess people are afraid of things they never saw before.

Archive

05-15-2007, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier<"My questions to you are as follows: "Who side are you on now?" In the future, Can we rely on what you know and will you aid said collectors of "Freaks, Errors & Proofs"?"> Now? I've never been on the dark side. If I did I certainly would never post, let alone show any results. Plus, I could make a ton of money just from a few cards. Although I am no expert I assist when I can. I've been helping collectors identify altered cards for years. As mentioned, it's one of the few things I can offer the hobby and do so as long as "said collector" is somewhat courteous. The one thing I will not do is give a hint to any "how-to's" which tends to make many upset. I have no loyalty to any company, authenticator or auction house, so I have nothing to gain or lose. I Just give an opinion based on objective findings. Unfortunately, I’m not always the most popular guy...especially if it's something the collector doesn’t want or chooses not to hear. Different formulas, mixtures and/or techniques have various effects on cards. Depends on the year, stock and ink. Each is different. Kevin Saucier

Archive

05-15-2007, 05:15 PM

Posted By: DennyBravo Zulu (Well Done!) Kevin, I see that you have been very honest in your posts. I do understand everything that you've convey'd. I also heartfully appreciate it, "Thank You". I do apologize if I convey'd that you do this for money. It was not what I meant at all! I was just hopful that you might chime in with your opinion if ask'd? Life's Grand, Denny Walsh