1953 Stahl Mayer Mantle

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Posted By: <b>Matt Vance</b><p>I recently received this card in a collection, and was excited to get it. I sent the card to PSA, and unfortunately it was not holdered because of "questionable authenticity". I will post a scan of the card when I get it back, but my question is- are there are known reprints of these cards? Or should I send the card to either SGC or GAI to get a second opinion? I did a lot of research and comparing it to other 53 Stahl Meyers before sending it in, and the card measured correctly (it's an over-sized card, something like 3 1/4 by 4 1/2 in.), did not seem to be re-colored and had rounded corners like the original. Everything looked right to me, but I guess I'm not an expert. Any chance PSA got it wrong?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Give yourself a chance.<br />You can make this determination without relying on the slab houses!<br />Purchase the David Rudd Cycleback book entitled "Judging the Authenticity of Early Baseball Cards"<br />It will probably cost you not much more than one PSA submittal, and it will empower you for the rest of your life.<br />I am serious.<br />If there is anything which you do not understand, please ask me, and if I can not handle it, others here can (including the author).<br />The book is typically available on eBay.<br />If you can't find it for a while, check the Internet search engines.

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>I hate to tell you this, but I have seen quite a few fakes of this card. They all seem to originate from a beautiful specimen auctioned by REA in 2004 (I am pretty sure that was the year). It is off-center, and I would easily recognize it if you posted or sent me a scan. Hope it isn't. Here is a real one :<br /><br /><img src="http://www.baseballcardresource.com/img/53StahlMeyer/53SM_Mantle_A.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Im sorry Matt. My response was directed to pre-war cards, which is the focus of this forum. I don't know why I did not realize that Mantle nor the set was post war.<br /><br />It is my understanding that all post war cards must be slabbed to be marketable. So, if one company doesn't think your card is legit, try another. As far as "could PSA make a mistake"? I will leave that response to those more jocularly inclined.<br /><br />Perhaps our marquee should state pre-war if that is our charter. "Vintage" invites any good intentioned wanderer to stop in and ply their inquiries.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>if they (psa) say it's fake....it's fake.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Dennis, please. Get a second opinion with sgc or gai before you guarantee its a fake.

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Posted By: <b>murcerfan</b><p>Dan is right...many fakes of this card.<br />look for a slightly pinkish hue to the colorimg and compare the "corner" cut with a real one (use a common).......the fakes are actually pretty easy to spot.<br /><br />too bad..a great card and set(s)<br /><br />pardon the bad scan..here is another authentic example<br /><br /><img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images/cards/Item_307_39248.jpg"><br />

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>"my question is- are there are known reprints of these cards?"<br /><br />Probably not as many as the 1954 Dan Dee Mantle, but, yes, counterfeits aplenty.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I assume PSA can identify a reprint.<br /><br />As already touched on, one of easy identifiers of reprints of non-square cornered cards are the corners. For playing cards, game cards (National Game, Polo Grounds), etc, the reprints are almost always significantly different than the genuine cards and thus easy to identify-- different shape, angle, size, crooked, other. Also remember for almost all playing and game cards, all four corners are the same shape and size and where machine cut. If a card has an upper left corner significantly different and crooked compared to the than the upper right, it's probably a homemade reprint where the forger couldn't cut two corners alike.<br /><br />It goes hand in hand with the above that if a round cornered card for sale has identical corners to a genuine card, that's a strong sign, if not definitive proof, the card is genuine. And comparing to a picture of a genuine card is sufficient to check corners. Remember, that for almost all original playing and came cards, all four corners should be identical. <br /><br />This would appear to indicate that a relatively safe place for a newer collector to collect is round cornered cards-- assuming he or she is diligently comparing corners. <br /><br />I've never seen a real or reprint Stahl Meyer in person, but it appears as if the borders on the real card are pure white. A computer reprint would likely have some color dots in the borders, seen under magnification. I also would assume that one the genuine card the bottom text, sig and rectangular lines are solid and clean black ink under magnification.

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Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>Someone can please correct me if I'm wrong...but I'm fairly sure that there are a limited number of "square corner" '53 S/M out there that were hand-cut from some original sheets...

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>Yes, there are a number of "proofs". The fact that these are hand cut from a sheet is usually overlooked by sellers. (usually out of ignorance rather than deception)

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Posted By: <b>Matt Vance</b><p><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/MATT238/StahlMeyerMantle.jpg"> <br /><br />I just got around to scanning this card. I have read everyone's messages and appreciate the advice. I do plan on having this card graded by another company for a second opinion. I know it's tough to tell from a scan, but can anyone offer any other opinions on it's authenticity after seeing scans? Many people made comments about the shape of the corners, how does this card's compare?

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Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>Looks like the real deal to me, Matt...

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Sorry to say but it doesn't look too good to me.....<br /><br />Overall the image is flat and drab and ink colors not well defined. This seems especially so in Mantle's jersey, which has that pinkish hue which suggests a modern printer not recognizing true whites and approximating an overall shade just lighter than found in his face.<br />Also, the print in the box below his image seems to show the font a little fat, unwieldy, and messy. Compare to the first example shown by dstudeba and the elegantly thin and precise scrolling of his name.<br /><br /><br />My opinion only, and good luck.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>Mick seems a bit washed out to me and not as sharp as the previous member stated. <br /><br />Do you have any other Stahl Meyers for comparison? If so that is the first step I would take. Otherwise send it to SGC for a second opinion since in a holder that is a $3000 plus card.