I guess the armpits won't be getting an invite :( to no fancy pants dinner

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>"MASTRO AUCTIONS LIVE EVENT AT THE NATIONAL <br /> <br /> We will be presenting an extremely prestigious live auction (our first ever) at the National Sports Collector’s Convention in Cleveland, on the evening of Friday, August 3rd, that will be limited to only 100 of the very “best of the best” sports collectibles in our hobby. The bidding will take place on the internet, for two weeks leading up to the auction, then live in the room, and on the telephone the night of the auction. Already in the fold are: a T206 Honus Wagner card; a T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb reverse, as well as a magnificent example of the Ty Cobb tobacco tin that these rare cards were issued in; a 1933 Goudey Napoleon Lajoie card (SGC 88); a Joe DiMaggio rookie-era game used bat; Hank Aaron’s 1954 signed rookie contract, Mickey Mantle’s 500th home run baseball... to mention just a few. This auction will have national advertising and promotion, and will be preceded by an invitation only dinner/banquet at the House of Blues in downtown Cleveland. There will be a separate catalog for this sale (all of the 100 lots will be featured on a double-page spread), and all of the pieces will be on view at our booths at the convention. We are taking these items in at the present time, and once we reach the 100 lot ceiling we will close the consignment process."<br /> <br /><br />I thought I remembered in a thread a while back Doug mentioning items right across the price range?<br /><br />Ah well, you'll find me in the Hotel Bar with a copy of the catalog (if I'm lucky enough to scrounge one) and a cel phone, speed dialing the Auction and pretending to be Bruce Dorskin and madly bidding on every item I can <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Of course Bruce, I'm only kidding!!<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />I feel your pain...I can't even get to Cleveland for the National, much less into Mastro's Auction. <br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>but sounds like that is still being determined, as they are not done collecting consignments! I should call Doug to offer up one of my 1987 Topps sets!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I don't know about the rest of you, but from the items listed, assuming I had the resources for any of them, I would most want the Hank Aaron contract. (Yes, over the T206 Wagner and Cobb)...a 1/1 is exactly what it means.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I wasn't aware the Cobb backed cards came in the Cobb tin <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I'd actually prefer to have the Ty Cobb with Cobb back over the Wagner...I'm sure i'm an idiot.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I was of the understanding that there has never been any confirmation that the Cobb back cards actually came in the tin. But then again, given the misinformation that Mastro has been prone to provide lately to overhype lots in their auctions, a sketchy claim like this doesn't seem out the ordinary for them.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With all due respect all auction houses over hype their consignments. As much as I like REA their 1914 Ruth photo in a PSA slab wasn't a card even though they said it was a dozen times in their description. It's their job and I don't fault them for that.......I have no idea about the Cobb back coming in a tin or not...I think it's still not confirmed either way....I think it coming in a Cobb tin is a possibility though.....regards

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't think Mastro should ever say that the Cobb/Cobb came from the Cobb tobacco tin unless they have some proof of this. That tin needs no hyping at all....especially hype that possibly isn't even true.

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>What purpose would it serve to put the same exact card in each tin, if they were sold that way?

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Posted By: <b>Ray Piskadlo</b><p>If the tin is real and the card did come from it, wouldn't that help settle the debate of whether or not that card should be a part of the T206 set??? All we have to do is examine the writing and tax stamp to see the dates and if it is a part of ATC.<br /><br />Assuming Mastro can prove that card came from this tin of course.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>I'm sure quite a few collectors on the board read Lew Lipset's Old Judge issues. Lew has come the closests to tying the 2 together, the Cobb with the Cobb back and the Cobb tin. In Issue no. 12, August 1987 on the back page , page eight, Lew tells the story of buying a Cobb with Cobb back from a private source , and then finding the same person had the Cobb tin. Lew bought both. Lew writes" It can now be added to the description in volume 3 of the Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards that the T206 Ty Cobb Back has green type and comes from Factory 33 4th District No. Carolina. It is also believed that Ty Cobb backs were issued inside each Ty Cobb tobacco tin. The rarity of the Ty Cobb back can be traced directly to the rarity of the tobacco tin". This certainly is not absolute, and probably never will be, unless someone finds an unopened Cobb tin and they open the tin and find the card. That would something wouldn't it.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think it more likely we will see an advertisement that will link the Cobb/Cobb with the tin before we find an unopened one. But ya never know what is just around the corner in collecting. Who'd a thunk a group of over 90 Pirate back T215 baseball players would show up?

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>For now I think we can safely assume it came in the tin can, not only due to the owner of the tin can posessing the cobb/cobb back card(what are the odds of that, if they didnt come together?) And also, as far as i know, there's no other package thats ever been discovered thats a possible alternative, am i right??

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />What else was in the Cobb tin. My guess is tobacco.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>chase cards featuring swatches of Cap Anson's soiled uniform or cut signatures from signers of the Declaration of Independence!

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Except perhaps, on April 1st, when Ty himself may have been alleged to be in the can.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I should know better than to try and get a serious response from you guys...only thing worse is Barry correcting my grammar. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> If we knew the other contents in the Cobb Tin then we could make a better educated guess as to whether these contents were normally sold with a card.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, the tin was for Ty Cobb brand tobacco.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.bdecsports.com/images/temptin.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Thanks for the post of the tin...it's beautiful, what bothers me is that why are there so few of these tins around. You would think people would keep them to use as penholders, store paper-clips, or in a curio cabinet.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think there are about 12 known Ty Cobb/Cobb back cards. I think there are even less (by a few) of the tins known. That part of the mystery lends credence to the card coming in the tin too....I don't think anyone can, or should, say one postively came in a tin....until there is more proof...just my opinion....Unless there is something I have missed that gives even more proof....

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I agree with you, we need more evidence. It just seems like that in order for that many Cobb with Cobb backs to survive, there would have to be a lot more of the Cobb Tins out there. The Tins are much more durable and should exist in greater numbers than the Cobb with Cobb backs because many were probably thrown away in paper drives etc.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>This Ty Cobb tin is advertising "Granulated Cut Plug" tobacco....that's strictly meant<br /> as chewing tobacco.<br /><br />The back of the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card advertises...."Smoking Tobacco"....<br /><br />Hey guys....I do not think this Ty Cobb card goes together with this Tin.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bcobbtycobb.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/acobbtycobb.jpg">"&gt;

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I think about half (5?) of the Cobb/Cobb's were found in one collection.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>In 1997 there five new discoveries auctioned by REA. They were all found in a scrapbook by the grandson of a general store owner from Georgia if memory serves me correctly. At the time there were six known, bringing the total to eleven. Since then, one more was brought to the hobby. It was found in Kentucky. As far as I know there are now twelve known copies.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- isn't granulated tobacco loose tobacco that can be rolled into a cigarette? I'm guessing the card did come with the tin, but it's just a gut feeling. I have no proof.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Good call Ted. I think that pretty much sums up that these cards did not come inside the tin....besides if they were packed inside the tin wouldn't they have tobacco stains?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Great point....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Back of a T203 reads:<br /><br />Mayo's Cut Plug is always good for Smoke or Chew.<br /><br />Therefore, granulated cut plug tobacco can be smoked. Theory denied!

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>It still is a great card and an amazing tin!

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I'm no expert on chewing tobacco, however....<br /><br />1....my 1st wife's Grandfather chewed a lot of tobacco and it came from "Cut-Plug" brands.<br /><br />2....look up "cut plug" in Webster's, if you don't think I'm right....I did before I posted the above post.<br /><br />3....Mayo was the producer of both Smoking and Chewing tobacco<br /><br />Incidently, advertising in the early 20th Century was very color conscious and since the back of this Cobb<br /> card is printed with GREEN ink, I would expect whatever package it came with to be also printed in green.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>According to the back of the Mayo card, it could be smoked, but I am neither a smoker nor a chewer. Just reading the card.<br /><br />My guess is just like Polar Bear was loose tobacco made to be rolled into cigarettes, so was Ty Cobb...all speculation, nothing to back it up.<br /><br />P.S.- I just checked my Webster's and it didn't have a listing. I'll google it and get back to you.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When I typed "cut plug tobacco" into Google, the first thing I got was Mayo Cut Plug. That was funny.<br /><br />It does say that cut plug tobacco was rolled into sheets mixed with molasses (lovely product), and the user would bite off a piece and chew it. So it appears Ted is correct; however, the Mayo card still says you can chew or smoke it.<br /><br />Do we have any tobacco chewers and/or spitters on the board who can clarify this for us? My spittoon is out of service at the moment.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Thanks for at least partially agreeing with me on the chewing tobacco issue.<br /><br />Anyway, consider this....look at that Tin and tell me how they could have in-<br />cluded this card in it ?<br /><br /> The dimensions of this card (like any T-card) are such, that it was inserted in<br /> a standard (10-cigarette) pack of that era....between the slide and the inside<br /> wall of that pack.

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Posted By: <b>Peck</b><p>"Ty Cobb" (the person - not tobacco) King of the smoking tobacco world. Tuxedo tobacco which came in a green pocket tin and larger can was manufactured by American Tobacco Company (1910 tax stamp) and used Ty Cobb in 1914 magazine ads. Tuxedo used many famous people during this period in their ads but I would guess "Ty Cobb" was the King. <br /><br />The Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back looks more like a 1914 era card than a T206. Maybe a trade card to a select few?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I am merely speculating, but the fact that it was packaged in a tin and not a soft package like Polar Bear may be indicative of/due to its limited special release and thus rarity. Whether or not the card was placed it the tin is tough, if not impossible to say with certainty at this point. But the fact that we don't know of any other Ty Cobb tobacco tins from the era and Lew Lipset found one in the possession of an original, outside-the-hobby (is this true?) collection which also happened to have a Ty Cobb backed card does seem like an aweful big coincidence.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>the reason the card was produced in so few numbers was in fact exactly Ted's speculation re color conflict.......the card was meant to be printed with a red back to match the tin, but was instead inked in green and therefore pulled for a potential replacement.<br />Which never came - when the Ty Cobb tobacco product famously flopped as it tasted like roasted dung! <br /><br />And thus, few cards and few tins.<br /><br /><br />Hmmmmm.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Since Cobb liked to use a green pen and his autographs are mostly (always?) in green, perhaps the green ink used on the back of the card reflected his preference?

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Posted By: <b>judson hamlin</b><p>I found an unopened Ty Cobb tin once...<br />I was disappointed that there was only a card of some guy named Wagner in it, so I threw it away near some woman's grandfather's car in Indiana.<br />At least it wasn't a Jackson proof.<br /><br />Any more threads I can throw in here?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>BESIDES.....the picture on this chewing tobacco Tin depicts Cobb in his "Bat on Shoulder" pose....so, why <br />then is the Cobb/Ty Cobb card featuring him with the Red portrait ?<br /><br />Now, wait a minute....perhaps there is another Cobb/Ty Cobb card out there to be found, consistent with<br /> the picture on this Tin ? ?<br /><br />Since it's yet to be found, it will rival in rarity, the T206 Joe Doyle error card. Of which there are only a few <br />(less than 10) and were not discovered until the early 1980's.<br /><br />Yes, it's all "tongue-in-cheek" guys; since, I don't buy this Tin being the container of the Cobb/Ty Cobb card.

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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>Cobb was an avid Pipe tobacco smoker, not cigarette. It would lend to the argument that the tobacco contained in the tin would be pipe tobacco and that the statement on the back of the Cobb/Cobb "Smoking Tobacco World" simply implies smoking tobacco (see references below), cut plug tobacco (flake cut) was very useful and used by many for various purposes. <br /><br />Why does everyone jump on the cigarette? In this era, there were countless PIPE TOBACCO smokers.<br /><br />-----------------------------------------<br />Flake Cut<br /><br />One of the synonyms of the flake style of cutting is Navy Cut, which owes its name to the fact that the British sailors carried whole briquettes of tobacco with them, cutting off thin slices when necessary. This, of course, meant that the smoker had to have certain skills – one can imagine how often on a long voyage a sailor would have to make use of his little board and tobacco knife.<br /><br />Cut Plug is yet another name for slices of pressed tobacco. Cut Plug was one of the first means for producing tobacco industrially that was immediately ready for the pipe. Strangely enough, the first to develop this method were the British, who were usually conservative in all such things, and not the Americans, who always wanted everything done quickly. Later, ready-to-smoke tobaccos (sold under the name Ready Rubbed) began their triumphant procession through the shelves of the tobacco shops.<br /><br />Today, uncut tobacco in the form of Plug is for one reason or another not so easy to find. Even so, there are still things to interest the serious smoker. Tobaccos cut in the Flake cut format (broad, thin slices) provide considerable opportunities for creativity. Inexperienced smokers or smokers in a hurry crush the tobacco slices and rub them with their fingers, then fill their pipes as if they were dealing with Ready Rubbed tobacco. But more sophisticated smokers use Flake Cut unrubbed. Packing a pipe properly with unrubbed flakes is a fairly complicated business, and numerous articles and guides have been written to help to explain it. Furthermore, the pipe used for such a method of packing should have a fairly wide bowl. Smoking a pipe packed in this way is also no easy business, but those who are experienced in doing it will assure you that it’s worth the effort.<br /><br />Another means of cutting Flake tobacco is called Cube Cut. Here, the pressed tobacco is first cut into 3.5mm thick slices, and these in their turn are cut crossways so that regular tobacco cubes are made. Burley tobacco is usually produced in this way, but there are no rules without exceptions. On the subject of the size of the cubes, there are no precise standards, but many specialists are in agreement that traditional Cube Cut tobacco should have edges about 5mm in length. Any less, and the tobacco is considered to be granulated – a format that is particularly popular in North America. On the other hand, in recent years there has been a tendency to call all cube cut tobacco granulated, irrespective of the sides of the cubes.<br /><br />After this, the tobacco briquettes are placed in another press, where they stay for several weeks under strictly regulated temperature and moisture conditions. The result is a briquette of exceptional density and durability, which is convenient for storage and transportation and which releases moisture only with extreme reluctance. So it is hardly surprising that this particular form of processing tobacco leaves was the most common for over a century, when pipe tobacco was for the most part used by smokers in the Old and the New Worlds and transportation of the product could take many months.<br /><br />Before filling the pipe, the smoker cuts off the required amount of tobacco from the slab and rubs it according to his own preferences. Here there is a lot of room for experimentation on the width and shape of the cut.<br /><br />But with the pace of life continually quickening and the number of devotees willing to spend time sawing up cubic briquettes getting smaller, it was necessary to come up with a type of tobacco that could be packed into a pipe easily. One of the methods that particularly suited the new trends was the flake.<br /><br />Flake<br /><br />Flake is the common name for an impressive group of tobaccos, and Flake Cut is a British development that has passed the test of time and the market. Basically, lots of tobaccos go through the Flake stage in their development, but they are subsequently given original names and only a few of them are actually called ‘flake’ in the usual understanding of the word. A flake is a thin layer about 1.5 mm thick produced by cutting a slab of pressed tobacco. Apart from its convenience for storage and transportation, pressed tobacco has another purpose: flake burns more slowly so it does not get so hot, and this ensures the smoker a cool, tasty smoke. This is the main reason why flake in its rubbed form is added to many tobacco mixtures.<br /><br />Plug<br /><br />Any tobacco mixture that has gone through the press is called plug, and consists of dense slabs around 4 cm thick. It should be pointed out that the pressing procedure is used not only for the convenience of storing and transporting tobacco, but primarily for giving it certain qualities of taste. After passing through the first stage of processing, the tobacco leaves are piled into the press, where they are squashed for a minimum of three hours. One of the major producers of pipe tobacco uses a press for this purpose that can exert a pressure of 55 tonnes and turn a metre-high pile of tobacco leaves into a slab 4cm thick.<br /><br />Source sited: <a href="http://www.en.cigarclan.com/articles/2005/2/11/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.en.cigarclan.com/articles/2005/2/11/</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>an EXCELLENT starting point. I have collected and researched many forms of tobacco, packs, tins, and advertising. I can tell you that plug and cut plug was both chewed and/or smoked in a pipe. It wasn't appropriate for rolling into cigarettes as it was condensed and often mixed with ALL kinds of additives from figs to molases making it difficult to roll and it wouldn't allow for a smooth or even smoke. Now part of the problem is the word "granulated". An inference could be made that in such small pieces (perhaps even made utilizing tobacco left over from processing other plug products) it COULD be rolled into cigarettes but still unlikely. I know nothing about the T206 cards and subsequent issues. I know there is a factory # designated on the card as well as a district (hard to see in scan and I don't own EVEN one-surprise-surprise). Good research should suggest the actual factory location and operation dates. If there is no information on the tin in that regard (hmmm I don't own one of these either) I would suggest that one possible source to research would be the patent office records. The configuration of the tin is quite unusual and it might in fact be unique as I don't recall ever seeing the same style. That would suggest a patent.<br />It is unusual or raises questions pro and con:<br />NO advertising has been introduced into the hobby relative to the specifics of the issue. No slide and shell box exists (so far)-As far as I know no-one has seen a Mino pack either.<br />The brand was short lived. The cards could have been an experiment or issued in OTHER slide and shells from the same manufacturer.<br />To think that the card and tin would be found in the same place and not related - except that perhaps the person collected Cobb just as there are player collectors today (we don't come close to being the first collectors).<br />The back is green (knowing he favored the use of this color and the back is green is a little weird but hardly a smoking gun and Tuxedo was a prolific advertiser -they would have linked the card and the tobacco together in print for sure).<br />It wouldn't be a stretch that the Cobb card could be the only player to be inserted into the product as it's all about Cobb - unlike most other brands of the day which were NOT named after a person (other than cigar products).<br />There is no severe tobacco staining on the cards when they were inserted along with MOIST and STICKY tobacco-at least when it was fresh. That is not to say it couldn't have been placed in the tin within a glossy envelope like some stamp and other issues of the day (silks and blankets) but again unlikely.<br />It sizes the same as many of the tobacco era cards and almost all cards from that period were found in slide and shell boxes - except it must be noted that it is generally accepted that Polar Tobacco held cards in it's paper package.<br />As usual more questions than answers.....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What we all seem to agree on regarding the Cobb with Cobb back is that there is something unusual about it, both in its scarcity and the way in which it was distributed to the public.<br /><br />Perhaps it was never in any pack, and that for a short period of time, perhaps to introduce the new granulated tobacco, a customer would receive one at the point of purchase as a souvenir. And because they were loose, even if thousands were printed, very few would have survived.<br /><br />You would go to the counter, buy your tin of tobacco, and you would be handed the card separately. The attrition rate in that circumstance would be enormous, explaining its rarity today.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>The back of this unique Ty Cobb card identifies....Factory #33, Dist. 4, NC<br /><br />Factory #33 is a big mystery; and, is unique in all the T-card backs. And, research into<br /> its whereabouts has been unfruitful.<br /><br />The 4th District in North Carolina was the home of the Liggett & Myers Tobacco plant....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/alandmpc.jpg"><br /><br /><br />The last four T-brand issues (ca. 1911) of T206's are identified with this NC plant.<br />They are......<br /><br />American Beauty 460 Factory No. 42 4th Dist. NC<br /><br />Sweet Caporal 460 Factory No. 42 4th Dist. NC<br /><br />Sweet Caporal 460 Factory No. 42 4th Dist. NC (overprint)<br /><br />Piedmont 460 Factory No. 42, 4th Dist. NC....(very tough back)<br /><br /><br />However, although Factory #33 was located in this District of NC, there is no evidence<br /> to link it to this plant.<br /><br />Speaking about "Factory #42"......this is the 42nd post on this interesting thread.

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Posted By: <b>Ed</b><p>I used to chew tobacco, years ago, but I have nothing to add. I'm confused.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Copey, cut or leaf? Sounds like a good survey topic.