ACC modification

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>The American Card Catalog seems to be the be all and end all for cataloging. <br /><br />How can the ACC designations be changed to account for new information? To whom should one write/email to suggest a change or two?<br /><br />My aim here is to take out the "hand-cut" designation from certain W cards. It annoys me PSA labels some W cards hand-cut when I am most certain they are not. OR change certain designations from W to the more likely probability of candy issue designations.<br /><br />I have grown to like the w502's and w575's - they are rare in high grade, seem to be underpriced, and look way cool with the real photo designs.<br /><br />But I strongly feel they are NOT hand-cut.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The ACC is the card collecting bible. It's over and done with and will never, itself, be changed, imho. Bert Sugar came out with the Sports Collectors Bible in 1979 and 3 revisions through 1984, after that. He tried to do an update as you are saying with this publication. Some of it stuck and some of it didn't....Burdick did a great job and we should all be very thankful for what he did. With that being said there are many "mistakes" that are what they are.....Good question and subject though....We have discussed it on the board several times over the years and it's a good, debatable subject now too....regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know that SGC is willing to listen to collectors who have an expertise with a particular card issue. If you can demonstrate to them that certain cards are factory cut and not hand cut, they may be willing to make changes too.<br /><br />You can always try the same approach with PSA and see where it takes you.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>SGC already grades w575s without any handcut notation. My suggestion - rather than wasting your time with the ACC and PSA, send your cards to SGC.<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1922W575-1JohnsonfMedium.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Scot York</b><p>The address is: www.sportscollectorsdigest.com <br /><br /> Good luck, I've tried with no replies. Mr. Lemke is no longer there.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have spoken to SGC many times about their designations. They will always listen and make good decisions based on what they know and what you can prove. I have always strongly recommended that all hand cut (true strip)cards be graded and have a qualifier of "handcut". I hate seeing these things in high grade holders with no qualifiers. I don't think they give (handcut) qualifiers as often as I would like, even today.... To me strip cards, in the classic sense, are all hand cut and with that being said who is to say "when" they got cut? I have no clue about PSA and don't really care...This isn't PSA bashing but I think in the long run their product quality will be more known about and they will take a big hit...again, not PSA bashing here. I am only giving my personal/hobby opinion. I am not sure where SCD would fit into the equation of fixing the numbering system but they, or Beckett (less so) would be logical places to look for updates to vintage cards...... regards

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Posted By: <b>calleocho</b><p>"I have no clue about PSA and don't really care...This isn't PSA bashing but I think in the long run their product quality will be more known about and they will take a big hit...again, not PSA bashing here.<br /><br />Coming from the moderator of the most popular vintage baseball cards board...<br /><br />I know you are a passionate collector like the rest of us ...but dont you think you could be a little bit more neutral?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>ErlandStevens</b><p>For this board, that *is* fairly neutral.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I was being honest....I prefer to be that way.....when my fave, SGC, messes up I say that too.....see my above comment about qualifiers on strip cards....I truly believe in the long run PSA will have problems because of their quality of product....I could be wrong...I have been before....I am neutral when I feel that way.....I would also say the biggest issue is going to be with very high grade PSA cards....mark my words......best regards<br />

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>Just a second. Are you saying that someone needs to tell a grading service whether a card is hand cut or not? That speaks louder than anything I've heard before. I LIKE having someone else look over an expensive card. I DON'T have a micrometer and such. I would HOPE the approach was based on scientific fact. I LIKE the way many of my cards look in the SGC holders. I DON'T care what "grade" they think it is. I HOPE they get it right and are consistant.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>SGC knows which cards are handcut ie... W51x etc....but they usually give them a numeric grade withoug a qualifying "handcut" designation. I think all strip cards, and cards sans coupons that once had them, should be given the qualifier of "handcut" or they should only be graded "A" for authentic..Unless they can tell exactly "when" it was cut then this quailifier should be given.....again, this is only my opinion....For the record I do think PSA gets it right most of the times....especially on lower grade cards....

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Its pretty ridiculous when a zeenut can get a high grade without the coupon attached with no qualifier. So what is one to do? Trim their coupon to get a higher grade or leave it on with fuzzy corners and end up with a 30?

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>It seems like your thoughts on changing some W card designations will be futile effort.<br /><br />PSA, with their labels reading "hand-cut", will lead to my future submissions going to SGC which does not label as such. <br /><br />I like PSA due to the ease of use of their population listings, I will investigate SGC website to see their pop listings. SGC cases are more eye appealing, hands down. But the darn PSA Registry seems to keep PSA fetching better prices more often - but maybe, when accumulating a set isn't really an option due to extreme scarcity, SGC can also get equivalent prices as PSA.<br /><br />steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave Grimes</b><p>WhaT does hand cutting mean? Most early cards, especially 19th century cards were "had cut" using a large guillotine........hence for those that really know the series, assignging a strict size critieria is almost laughable - I have had groups of nearly mint N-series cards, especially Allen and Ginter, that when you stack them edge on ALL had different heights and widths. Most early card production involved hand cutting....unless it currently means trimming out with scissors individually? which I don;t think it is meant to imply.<br /><br />Compared to today's modern production methods, I think its really safe to say that just about ALL 19th century caRds were "handcut" and probably most of the early 20th century issues also, in that they invovled a person stacking sheets be hand under a large guillotine.......<br /><br />I'm open to other opinions

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Hi Dave,<br /><br />When people reference hand-cut card issues it's strictly in relation to cards that were distributed to the public in strips......from which point joe public was free to cut them up at home - or not. And as Joe tended not to have a guillotine in the kitchen, scissors/knife were the tools of choice, often leaving wavy imperfect cuts, notches, and uneven borders.<br /><br />So whatever the cutting machine/process used to seperate cards from sheets in the 19th or early 20th century, if those cards were then distributed<br />individually they are considered 'factory cut' and not 'hand cut'.<br /><br />Hope that helps some.<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to add: Even where you find very nicely cut strip cards that were either done contemperaneously shortly after manufacture, or more recently, the cards were distributed to the public as strips and can therefore only be considered 'hand cut'.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will second what Daniel said. When I think of "handcut" I think of cards that were sold in strips and cut by folks that bought them ie strip cards...and Zeenuts w/coupons with the coupons being handcut. I think everyone realizes some processes were probably crude back in the 1910's....I do agree a lot of 19th century stuff (N172,N403,E223 etc..) looks handcut too....I have shown these recently but this is classic hand cut, imo...taken from original collection..<br /><br /><img src="http://luckeycards.com/pt2121x3.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>But Leon, we would agree - no, that even if these cards were cut by hand in the pre distribution phase, they would still be considered 'factory cut'....<br /><br />Or maybe it just doesn't matter any more after all these years, and a card is a card is a card is a card, however it makes its way into our grateful hands <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>has always been that hand cut meant cut with a scissors or some other tool to separate one card from a group or a card from a package AS INTENDED by the manufacturer or consumer. These are cards that ONLY exist as singles because they were hand cut like strip cards AND THEY WERE INTENDED to be enjoyed as singles. Box tops and cereal cards, candy boxes like the orange borders and Darby would naturally fall into that category........ What about those sheets with 25 cards on them like the ones with Babe Ruth, actresses, or the one with playing card themes? If separated would they be hand cut or trimmed? I would go with trimmed if they were produced to exist as a whole however I think such a sheet was intended to be cut into cards. Anomolies like that would generally need to addressed by the collecting hobby but I think the key is being consistent. The coupon cards like Zeenuts and Red Man that are without coupons are trimmed regardless of how or when it was accomplished. Just my opinion obviously.