What is next in 21st century card collecting [Archive]

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04-25-2007, 10:03 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldFor some time now I've thought that paying someone else to tell me the grade of my own card was nuts. The idea of that is fundamentally wrong, to me. I understand that lots of folks here like it, some love it... After reading pieces of the Bobby Binder thread I'm reminded that evidently some collectors today not only pay someone else to tell them the grade of their card (paragraph 1), but now also pay someone a fee each month so they can know what their card is worth... That seems ludicrous, too. So what can be next? I'll tell you. If you need to know the identity and condition of your card (paragraph 1), and you need to know a value for your card (paragraph 2) it seems that the only remaining variable in collecting would be what to collect. Where are you Ted Z??? I think it is time that you and I, along with some other dinosaurs, offer a program, (for a monthly fee with some sort of monthly market report, too!) whereby we evaluate a collector's collection, identify weak areas, and make recommendations as to which cards to buy! That would complete the process. New collectors could collect fearlessly. We'll tell you what to collect, SGC and PSA will tell you what it is you've collected, and some cardpriceonthenetdotcomknucklehead can tell you what it's worth. Collecting on autopilot! With all the worries removed!! Like cruise control. Like that parallel parking system... like a mutual fund where the fund manager makes the decisions. Surely that is all that is left for this collecting century. Realistically... I'd rather take the grading fees and the cardprice fees, and use them to buy more cards.

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04-25-2007, 10:10 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulli Is there any point where we have to pay to have someone insult us for how we collect? Or do we continue to get that for free? -Al

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04-25-2007, 10:28 PM

Posted By: Josh Adams" not only pay someone else to tell them the grade of their card" That is an extremely uneducated and uninformed statement. That's not the only reason people get cards graded. Yet, you continue to hound those who happen to like cards in plastic holders. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't need to keep pounding away at that point every single time. I respect your collecting philosphy, try having some respect for others. Al, I agree with you. Looks like it will be free. Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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04-25-2007, 10:32 PM

Posted By: JayFrank--I know that some of your post is tongue in cheek but it may not be that far off. The formation of a fund that invests some portion of its proceeds in sportscards is basically what you have described. The fund buys cards that it deems to have a high likelihood of appreciation. It would undoubtedly only buy graded cards and it would help to have an independent third party to provide valuations. Not only is this possible but I bet we see it in the not too distant future. However, this has nothing to do with collecting.

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04-25-2007, 10:32 PM

Posted By: Jeff PriznerYou don't like slabbed cards Frank? Wow, you learn something new every day.

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04-25-2007, 10:41 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThe truth is that I'm glad some folks collect graded cards. I can get a few graded and sell them for much more than they would have sold for otherwise... more card-buying money for me. So please do keep collecting them. And, money spent on more expensive graded cards, and monthly card price services... that money can't be spent competing with my bids for regular old ungraded baseball cards. But really guys, what else is left?

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04-25-2007, 10:53 PM

Posted By: BrettI kind of feel the same way. I don't understand why I should have to pay someome at PSA or SGC to tell me that my creased to hell card is in poor shape lol. Well, its different for me, because I mainly just collect cards. I'm not in it to make a quick buck because I actually like the cards i'm buying and not too worried about an investment. I just sold some cards on the BST to get rid of them, because i've decided to stop collecting a few sets and hope to get my money back on them. Although, if I can make a little money, theres no harm in it. For people who are in this business to make money, grading cards is the way to go. I'm not too fond of the grading companies just because of the inconsistencies in the grades and also because cards are getting graded when they look to be trimmed and cards that are restored are getting graded... really high. Also, just because 1 guy at PSA says my card is PSA 4, doesn't mean its right. Its just 1 guys opinion right ? I might crack it out and send it off to get graded again and it might come back a PSA 5. In the future, they should get some high tech computer to scan the card to find out it its been restored, if its the proper size and so forth and give it a proper grade. Also, if I drop a card thats been graded on the floor, the case might break and mess up the card. I like the top loaders with the penny sleeves. If I drop it on the floor, the card is fine <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I;m not trying to bash grading companies, like I said, i'm not in it for make money, so grading isn't my thing. If theres alot of typos its because i'm tired and i'm going to bed lol.

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04-25-2007, 11:02 PM

Posted By: LarryJay, I think there was an investment market for cards a few years ago, but can't remember the name of it. You would pay for the current market value of a PSA graded card and they would hold it in your stock portfolio. I forget the name now. They had a website. Might be out of business now?

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04-25-2007, 11:43 PM

Posted By: DylanIf your statement is people should be more reliant on themselves instead of others, I can agree with that. I spent time to read on and study grading so that I could accuratly assess cards for sale. I also track auction data myself, without paying someone 10 dollars a month to do it for me. On the other hand much of the business done is over the internet thereby making 3rd party grading preferable to many buyers. I'm only able to see a scan(often times small and out of focus scans!) not hold the card and inspect it with my 30x loop. And considering cards are then sent through the mail system, i feel better about a card being in a slab(except some of psa's) then in what some sellers decide to ship their cards in.

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04-26-2007, 01:39 AM

Posted By: David SmithUh, Frank, you left out the automatic withdrawal from your checking or savings account to pay the fees. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-26-2007, 03:21 AM

Posted By: JohnFrank, Why does it bother you so much that some folks collect in their own way graded or what ever? And why do you assume or come off implying in almost every post that you and the other “Dinosaurs” are SO smart and the rest of the folks are knuckleheads??? Just curious…… Also before I start paying you a service fee to “tell” me what to collect I would like to make sure your up to par on everything if that’s ok? <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1170862538/last-1171162277/My+T206+Plank+theory....New+Follow-up+info" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1170862538/last-1171162277/My+T206+Plank+theory....New+Follow-up+info</a> My fav Frank quote to me..."At least you seem passionate about cards! Glad for that. Me thinks they're slabbed."

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04-26-2007, 05:00 AM

Posted By: dennisi think it's just hard for some people,who collected when there were no slabbers,to understand why people would only buy graded cards. they wonder. does this mean that these people would not have collected 20 years ago when the slab did not exist? why spend more $ on a graded card,when you can buy one raw and then have it graded? don't people like to hold a card w/o a holder as it was meant to be? don't cards look great in plastic pages in binders? think of all the money spent on slabs that could be used to buy more cards? it's a different world now. people don't buy albums or cd's they download their music. people play video games not board games. email? there are debit cards instead of checks? and some folks don't even have a land-line phone. wow,everybody has tatoos!(not just pirates and sailors?) for those of you who collect graded cards don't be offended by us dinosaurs set in our ways.just ignor us,there are things that can't be explained.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-26-2007, 05:50 AM

Posted By: DylanI often like to buy raw cards. But buying raw cards doesnt work out if you want high grade examples these days. Before slabs im sure you could track down NM T206's and E cards but i almost never even see NM or better T206's for sale in raw form. Now I suppose you could bust it out of the slab but if you ever need to resell its bad news. After buying some Tobacco and candy cards in sgc holders and displaying them next to eachother i think they look awesome. A lot better then screwdowns. Plus there protected, so if you dont like it fine, but i'll take em slabbed and raw both

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04-26-2007, 06:10 AM

Posted By: randIf i added up all the grading fees & SMR subcriptions i have paid, i am sure i could buy an SGC 60 Goudey Ruth (which i do not own at the moment), but i like to see my cards in an organized list and compared to other sets. One thing that bugs me is when a large dealer shows scans of their raw cards and they are overgraded to psa standards and the selling prices are as high as graded cards. So no better off here.

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04-26-2007, 08:18 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusFrank, Grading came about not to tell people about the grade of their own cards, but to tell people about the grade of cards they were interested in purchasing. As is seen even today when auction houses sell raw cards and people complain about overgrading, there was a need to have some reasonably objective standard of grading so people could have confidence that what they were buying was in fact what was represented. In addition, grading gives collectors some degree of confidence the card was not altered (though on this one reasonable people can differ as to how much confidence). For my collecting tastes, I prefer my cards to be ungraded. However, should I someday decide to sell, I know to maximize the price I will need to have them graded so prospective purchasers can hear from some objective third party that my cards are what I represent them to be.

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04-26-2007, 08:25 AM

Posted By: MikeThis topic is tired and worn out. There are plenty of reasons that make sense on both sides of the issue. Can we discuss something else? I have some cards that are clothed, and some that are naked. For many different reasons. I don't have an intense hatred for either, nor an intense liking for either. There is a place for slabbed and unslabbed. For those that detest plastic, what is your price range, that you will go, without having one of your hated graders, check it for coloring, trimming, or a myriad of other problems. Would you pay $100k for a raw card? Just curious.

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04-26-2007, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Steve fThis could be helpful, cuz I for one am all over the place and could use some *focus. Let me be the guinea pig!.. Frank, may I get a trial eval? *It's obvious I need to concentrate on higher grades -that is a given. <a href="http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/oche16/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/oche16/</a>

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04-26-2007, 08:42 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...I used to respect your position. I never had issues with your interest in collecting only raw cards, and I often take issues with those who buy the holder and not the card inside. But your initial post is insulting and ignorant. It also fundamentally calls into question your ability to fairly and accurately understand the second side to a story.

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04-26-2007, 09:22 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisEver since the "famous" Wagner card was graded (13 years ago), this hobby has seen dramatic change. And, there is no turning back. A whole new generation of collectors have entered the hobby who cannot, in their wildest imaginations, fully appreciate how this hobby was prior to the "grading days". During the 1970's and '80s, collectors enjoyed trading and buying sportscards without any concern (or worry) whether a card was altered, trimmed, or otherwise tampered with; simply because...... (1) Condition conscious collectors were few....most collectors were into it for the pure enjoyment of it. Mostly, to complete their favorite sets (or team sets) or acquire their favorite HOFers. (2) An Ex T206 Cobb cost $50. so, who would waste their time to alter it, to gain another $10 in value. But, nowadays with that same Cobb going for $2000....its human nature to be greedy. That inevitably leads to the altering of cards. And, like it or not, Grading is no guarantee that you have a "clean" card. Or even an "objectively" graded card......Are you really going to get a fair and objective grade of your card if you are an infrequent submitter as compared to the big dealers ? And, then you have the dilemna of what Grading Co. to submit your cards to, as a function of what you think will get you bigger $$ when you sell. This is the sad state of affairs that the grading phenomena has brought about. It has escalated prices beyond the reach of the most collectors......and furthermore, no one trusts anyone, anymore when it comes to BB card dealing. This latter point is evident in your posts on a daily basis on this forum. Recently, I counted (on a full page here) approx. 25% of the posts questioning, or alluding to concerns about altered cards. I ask....what kind of pleasure from this hobby are you deriving, if most of your purchases cause you this much worry ? Frank....you, I and a few others are considered the "dinosaurs" on this forum for primarily collecting cards that are ungraded. And, as long as there is all this present day "paranoia" engendered with ungraded cards, our comments will never be understood. T-Rex TED

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04-26-2007, 09:33 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf anyone is impressed by the incredible growth in this hobby over the past decade, it is due primarily to the advent of professional grading. Take that out of the equation, and go back to the days of raw only, and the value of baseball cards would plummet. Some might prefer that, others may not. But we would never have witnessed this dramatic growth without the slab. I stopped fighting it a long time ago.

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04-26-2007, 09:33 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliTed, your COMMENTS are understood. Perfectly. It's the insulting nature of Frank's repeated posts that are frustrating. Frank writes - frequently - about how he wishes we could get back to just talking about the cards. And yet most of his posts don't relate to cards at all - they just relate to how stupid grading is. Here's a brand new thread, started by Frank, with the sole purpose of being insulting towards people who collect graded cards. It has nothing to do with being a "dinosaur." There are plenty of long-timers in the hobby who are well-respected. Heck, to some people on this board I might even be a dinosaur, having been a collector for 25-30 years. I understand and appreciate the way people choose to approach the hobby. There's a lot of stuff to collect, and a lot of different ways to do it. I've chosen to embrace grading for a variety of reasons - none of which relate to paranoia, and none of which relate to maximizing the value of my collection. I've embraced grading for two primary reasons: first, it makes it easier for me to feel confident buying cards over the internet, sight unseen. Second, I like the way cards display in the holder. There are some other, ancillary reasons as well, but those two are the main ones. Ted, when you post about your T206 collections, and attempting sets with various backs, I can feel the enthusiasm, and it's infectious. Yesterday when you and I went back and forth about Tommy Henrich and Charlie Keller, I could read your passion for baseball, and it was great. I wish I could feel that same passion in Frank's posts, because he clearly knows a lot about cards and I'm sure I could learn a thing or two. But instead, all I get from his posts is a condescending and insulting attitude about a supplemental part of the hobby that really has nothing to do with the cards whatsoever. It's frustrating and boring, and I'd avoid it if I could - but I can't. It seems like if I want to participate on this board, I'm going to need to deal with a daily diatribe from Frank Wakefield about how stupid I am. And that bugs me. -Al

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04-26-2007, 09:34 AM

Posted By: boxingcardmanIt already exists and has for quite some time. I know of a number of collectors who have advisors who help them determine what cards to compile, what to pay for them, etc. I happen to think it is a pretty decent idea. Why should someone with enthusiasm for collecting and the ability to spend big bucks have to take his lumps, so to speak, when he can get an expert to advise him? As is the case with grading and price help, there are some collectors for whom it is useful. As far as I am concerned, whatever gets them interested and keeps them interested, so long as they enjoy it and stay interested, is a good thing. Would I substitute someone else's judgment for mine: no. But I can see where someone would want help branching into a specialty like Zeenuts or boxing cards.

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04-26-2007, 09:39 AM

Posted By: JohnTed, I respectfully disagree. No one here is not getting your way of collecting Ted because of age barriers or hobby knowledge. In fact Ted you might be surprised on how similar our collecting knowledge and collecting habits are. The only reason I haven’t been collecting as long as you or Frank is I wasn’t born yet. But I have been at this for 22+ years so I’m not exactly new either. The above comments that Frank made were not meant as advice, as much as they are bloated cheap shots towards others, for 2 guys who want us to get it already, you guys seem to have a hard time getting the other guys point of view. In fact I’ve seen more heat from your guys side of the camp towards the graded guys than vice versa. I also don’t buy for a minute that in the 80’s nobody was ripping folks off, with trim jobs etc. Heck I collected in the late 80’s early 90’s there were plenty of folks out to make a buck buy being dishonest and that was just in my small town! So I’m sorry if I don’t buy this it was all rainbows and lollipops before the evil grading companies came along. The one thing I will give you is that grading companies were to suppose to resolve the issue of dishonesty and they have fallen very short of doing so, if they have done so at all. In many ways they have created more issues than before. Best Regards, John

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04-26-2007, 09:44 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree with John that before professional grading trimmed cards were rampant, and so many people held onto these cards for years before they found out the bad news. I too love to reminisce about the old days, but buying altered cards is not one of the highlights.

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04-26-2007, 09:44 AM

Posted By: JohnCharlie Keller…I met them man multiple times as a kid as he lived in my small town, I have some pretty cool stories I can share Ted if your interested. Still have my 39 Playball, which he signed on the front porch of his home to me. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/collection/te/small/Keller%20Auto.jpg">

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04-26-2007, 09:51 AM

Posted By: AaronI also remember the scams in the 80's. Remember the lists that were sold telling you what was in a wax/cello pack by looking at the card showing in the back or front. I recall problems with people resealing wax packs. I also remember people at shows walking around with rulers measuring their cards they purchased. There was definitely problems before third party grading came along.

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04-26-2007, 10:00 AM

Posted By: MikeI am uncertain as to what can be construed as a dinosaur. I'm 53. My wifes 100 year old grandmother, who recently passed away, thought I was a kid. Many of the cards I bought raw in the early 90's have since been deemed to be trimmed. Upon closer inspection, they were. One world series ticket from 1931, was repaired. Upon closer inspection, it was. I bought these when I was much younger and inexperienced. Several fairly high priced cards, were bought at the Chicago national, back in the early to mid ninties. Forget the exact year. "ALL" were bought from dealers who we all know by name, and personally. And are still around. I still have the receipts from these purchases. I will never know if they knew the items were tampered with. Maybe they did it themselves. Who knows. I chose not to pursure them, because I bought them in the ninties, and found out they were damaged, in 2003 or so. I submitted them to different graders and got the same results. How should I feel about this? I am not sure myself. Some would say I was scammed, others will say, it shouldn't matter, that I should love the cards regardless. That I should love the hobby, and cards enough to over look the tampering. Some will say I should have known better. Maybe. It is a debate that can be argued until the end of time. I slab them now, mostly for protection, so that i can take them places, and display, and show them to people. I have been in the hobby long enough, where I virtually always know the grade on a raw card if I buy it. I don't need anothers opinion as to the grade. I don't hate slabs, and I don't love slabs. They do however serve a purpose for me. I can always take them out if I like. It's not like they are prisoners for ever. Some will say I am a moron for slabbing them. Ask me if I care?

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04-26-2007, 10:04 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMike- it's hard to love something you bought when you feel you were scammed. It leaves a bad taste for sure.

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04-26-2007, 10:08 AM

Posted By: T206Collector"And, as long as there is all this present day "paranoia" engendered with ungraded cards, our comments will never be understood." The "paranoia" is more justified now than ever. If you do not have a T206 Cobb in purportedly mint condition slabbed by PSA, SGC or GAI, then the presumption is that you are unable to have that card graded. Why else would you forego thousands of dollars for a $10 procedure? The "paranoia" felt in the 1980's drove people out of the hobby. The "paranoia" is best addressed by third party grading. Your comments related to the halcyon days of raw cards are well understood; but your lack of understanding of the fundamental value of grading from a variety of perspectives, many of which celebrate the virtue of the vintage card collector, is fantastically and fanatically ignorant.

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04-26-2007, 10:18 AM

Posted By: MikeRight Barry. As I said, I can never know if I was scammed. It is a Tiny bit difficult for to believe that some the most respected and highly touted dealers in the country, didn't know they were selling trimmed cards. So the trimmed cards sit in my drawer. Some, I just dumped them cheaply to a dealer. I don't have a paranoid bone in my body. Paranoia has nothing to do with anything. It has more to with some folks selling me something, that I think is something else. I don't want to buy a Corvette, that has had major repair jobs, and not be told. I see no difference. I don't understand some peoples almost psychotic dislike of two pieces of plastic ? Each collect what they like.

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04-26-2007, 10:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI used to buy trimmed cards from some of the top dealers, too...and they knew. And what's worse, I resold them many years later as it was still the era when we never even thought about trimming. As I look back, I'm sure I made a few unhappy customers.

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04-26-2007, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethRemember the SCD ads from the early and mid 90's of guys who used to sell nothing but Mint and NM/MT raw cards? I learned my lesson on those; virtually every one of them was either so obviously trimmed I could tell just from the size, or in cases where I wasn't sure was rejected by PSA when I later submitted them.

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04-26-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: E, Danielas Mike makes mentions above of a corvette....... When I go and buy a new car, do I drive it to determine if I like the experience??? YES. (eg. holding a card in my hand) Do I estimate the value/quality of the manufacturer? YES. (eg. is it an issue I appreciate, for any and all reasons) Do I look over the car at panel fit and finish, quality of plastics used, etc.. to decide if the car feels like a quality choice? YES. (eg. checking out a card under a loupe, or large scans to determine condition) And then what do I do? I go to third parties for opinions. Car and Driver. Consumer Reports. Safety reports. Resale reports. Where the car finished in yearly awards given by the Driving Expert community based on a wide, wide set of variables. And then I make my decision. So, even if I love a car in person, how it drives, etc.., I still won't buy it if I feel people with even greater expertise than I have judge it to be a poor choice. And its a WISE, WISE choice to do so. So, with something with such a smaller set of variables like cardboard I'll take a chance if the item is in hand, and I can run over my checklist to establish its worth. If the card resides somewhere else, in private hands or Auction House, then give me a third party opinion every night and day - even where I was to disagree with it, to help me wisely allocate my families scarce resources. SGC are the only company i trust completely (even understanding they will make mistakes occasionally) to help me in this process. And that too, is not a knucklehead position. Daniel

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04-26-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldGolly.... At least it is a thread that isn't about soap opera stuff... Although some won't believe it, my intent was NOT to malign folks who collect graded cards. It seems that some guys, perceiving my thoughts on grading, think that anytime I mention grading or slabbing that it is a slam on everyone who has a graded card. That's not what I said up there. My post was about what is next, from the perspective of seeing a guy ask about "which spreadsheet software" only to be told about some cardpricerdotcompaysomuchamonth thing, that I don't understand (and am content with remaining ignorant about it). The guy's question was about software, and out comes a sales pitch. Seeing that folks are subscribing to such services, I do wonder what is next. And I still do. I love analogies. I use them to often myself in explaining matters. But actually, nothing is like anything else. I once bought a car sight unseen, not knowing a color, make, model... nothing at all. My good car was in the shop, I'd wrecked it, my junker car was struggling, and my Dad, a car dealer, told me as I was walking through the showroom with parts for my struggler, that he had a car he thought would be good for me. I slowed stride and asked how much, he told me, and I said I'd buy it as I walked back into the shop. He prepared the paperwork and brought it to me, I walked it over to the clerk's office to transfer title (about a block, small town), and returned with the car in my name. He handed me keys as I returned, I then asked what it was and where it was. It was a green Dodge Charger SE, I think it was a 1974 model. 318 V8. My grandfather was a car dealer, too. And great granddad, too. His cars came crated, and he had to assemble them upon arriving by rail. Wooden spoked wheels... Grand Dad and Dad sold Buicks and Dodges. Most folks wouldn't buy a car like that. I've bought baseball cards like that... Sent money without seeing the cards. But I knew who I was dealing with, and knew I could get deals undone if I so desired. I agree that 3rd party grading helps sell cards on eBay when a buyer doesn't know the seller. My post was a bit of a slam at these dotcomcardvalueguys. And it was designed to have an "on topic" post that would get some fired up responses, following Leon's post about "off topic" posts. So really, guys. What is next?

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04-26-2007, 11:32 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...suggested a downward spiral of Orwellian proportions for graded card collectors -- that we were all mindless lemmings looking for the next way to get further removed from the pure joy of collecting. I do think there is value in asking what the next paradigm shift (after third party grading) will be. But that is not how your initial post was written.

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04-26-2007, 11:40 AM

Posted By: Brian"Ever since the "famous" Wagner card was graded (13 years ago), this hobby has seen dramatic change." Almost every aspect of life has changed since 1994. Frank, you seem to have a reactionary bent. re·ac·tion·ar·y (rē-ăk'shə-nĕr'ē) adj. Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress.

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04-26-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI've actually been thinking about it alot lately, and I personally would love to see a return to packaging cards with non-related product. Could be food, candy, washing liquid, really wouldn't matter, but doing so would return alot of the 'fun' to the buying and discovery part of the equation. It would also return condition rarity as a factor because cards wouldn't arrive in perfectly packaged foil and boxes. I also would appreciate todays sporting institutions (eg.mlb) that farm out the rights to producing cards, to insist on limits on the number of issues a manufacturer can create in any one year. Again, this just might recreate interest and desire in todays collecting youth and adult alike. Daniel

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04-26-2007, 11:54 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFrank, when you want to buy shares of GE do you just offer whatever you feel they are worth? Or do you check the last price and bid accordingly?

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04-26-2007, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Steve M.nolemmings here. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> (Hi Todd <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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04-26-2007, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Mike SnyderI regard this shift as a change in paradigm for the hobby. Much as the way technology has changed the workplace, the home, travel, etc. it has caught up with trading card collecting. Its value created a value-added that has really overwhelmed the hobby, as can be inferred from these posts. For me, considering the cost of better quality cards, I am happy that there is some form of grading. It would be good if there were only one superior grading service but 2 is OK for now. The fall of GAI from the industry is a good thing. I believe in the survival of the fittest.

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04-26-2007, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Steve M.Did I miss something?

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04-26-2007, 12:41 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAt the risk of some of these guys thinking that you and I are some "one-two punch" regarding "grading"....I fully understood your initial post. And, it is a good question....."what's next" ? Unfortunately, instead of getting some positve answers to your question, it's mostly gone negative. Somehow it has been misinterpreted by some. And, I'm not even going to try to understand that. After all, I have been referred to as a "dinosaur"; and, I've learned to wear that title as a "badge of honor". But, now I have been described with the following remarks..... "......fantastically and fanatically ignorant". H'mmmm...."fanatic".....that's a strong word. I wonder what my three lovely Grandchildren would think....if they heard someone describe their Grandfather as a "fanatic" ? It's derogatory remarks like these, that I find offensive on this board.....and, I do not hear them coming from members who are in the "ungraded school of thought". TED Z

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04-26-2007, 12:54 PM

Posted By: JimBTed said, "Condition conscious collectors were few....most collectors were into it for the pure enjoyment of it." I guess condition conscious folks like Lionel Carter were not into it for the pure enjoyment. I bet that would be a surprise to him. Will the real dinausor please stand up? I started going to shows in 1979 and I can vouch for the fact that there were condition conscious collectors back then. Of course it was different from now. But condition awareness is not something new in the hobby. JimB

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04-26-2007, 12:58 PM

Posted By: Cobby33With no undue respect to anybody- try paying over $1,000 for a bunch of fake cards. Then, maybe one will have a better appreciation for graded cards.

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04-26-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: T206Collector But please, let us not forget that my posts are entirely in response to Frank's initial post that claimed those who collect graded cards lack the capacity for individual thought and emotion. I will not sit idly by reading the posts of the ignorant and, above all, rude.

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04-26-2007, 01:12 PM

Posted By: leonAt the risk of making this a 3 person chatboard I understood Frank's initial post and took it the way I believe he meant it to be. I know he (Hi Frank) speaks better than I do but what I think he meant was "what's next?" in regards to the fact that we have so many things to help us in collecting one need not learn about the cards or the history anymore. It can all be done for you....except the beer drinking <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....And that can't be replaced....

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04-26-2007, 01:39 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...I purchased on ebay an ungraded T206 card signed by Fred Snodgrass. It came with an index card that had a note from Sno describing how he was once a catcher and that the correspondent should look for the Glory of Their Times in the next year. It is, to me, an amazing piece of baseball history, especially for the T206 collector. I will have the card and letter submitted to JSA/SGC for authentication, and will then share the card on SGC's website for others to enjoy. The suggestion that my collecting practices are mindless is offensive to me. And, regardless of how many times I read Frank's initial post, it is very hard for me to understand it as a neutral question. Instead, I can only read it as wondering what other heartless practices or technologies are going to be engendered by 21st Century collectors. But, perhaps the most frustrating thing about Frank's or Ted's posts in this regard is that they do not acknowledge the power their posts have to insult. Instead, when others are insulted by their initial posts, our responses -- and ultimately, our perceptions as to how we read the comments -- are viewed as the problem. There is no room for recognizing the underlying cause of the issue.

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04-26-2007, 01:49 PM

Posted By: JohnWhy does it always have to be a graded or un-graded thing here with you guys?? Why mention it at every turn does it keep you guys up at night or something??? I just don’t get it. Ted I don’t think its all that bad, but the picture you paint looks something like this.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/trex.jpg"> Leon, you're telling me you don’t see any digs or shots at sarcasm in Frank’s post above, heck I don’t even really collect graded cards and could read between the lines on that one. Barry noted we are very sorry, by we I mean me...

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04-26-2007, 01:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWould everybody please learn that "your telling me" is spelled "you're telling me". If one more person spells "you're" incorrectly Jeff Lichtman and I will have your collective heads. Thank you. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-26-2007, 01:57 PM

Posted By: Josh AdamsI agree with Paul. Very well put. "After reading pieces of the Bobby Binder thread I'm reminded that evidently some collectors today not only pay someone else to tell them the grade of their card (paragraph 1), but now also pay someone a fee each month so they can know what their card is worth... That seems ludicrous, too." Frank, you write this in your initial post, seemingly in an effort to spark a conversation about where collecting is heading. However, you give a backhanded slight to those who prefer cards in plastic holders. Everyone on here knows your preference for non-graded cards (we all know you say it enough). That's fine. I respect your choice, and far be it from me to tell someone else how to collect. It's a hobby, it is supposed to be FUN. Each person here inteprets FUN a seperate way. However, after your initial post, your whole "golly, gee whiz, I wasn't trying to slam anyone" is, well, not believable. Your choice of words are loaded, and down right demeaning. "some collectors pay someone to tell them the grade." The implication is that collectors who buy slabbed cards are morons. I'm sure that is news to alot of people who have their card stored in PSA, SGC, GAI, etc. holders. If you can't see how your word choice is inflammatory, I suggest a book on style and composition. How about this. Try to have a little understanding for other people's collecting tastes. Heck, I don't really care how other people collect, but when someone starts insulting me for my choices in a hobby, i.e., an escape from the everyday, well that is just foolish. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not ever remember anyone on here slamming you for your preference for raw cards. I wish the reverse were true. Everyone, HAVE FUN!! Josh Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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04-26-2007, 02:03 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliTed, with all due respect, you don't see the comments coming from the 'ungraded school of thought' because those comments are not directed at you, so evidently you don't read them. They are incessant. Without digging in and scouring his posts, here's the first one I pulled up from Mr. Wakefield's vast lexicon of non-insults: "But then what am I to expect with mindless, lemminglike following of the grading lunacy." Even in this thread, it is stated that the concept of grading is "fundamentally wrong" and "nuts", and the people who use "cardpriceonthenetdotcomknucklehead" services are "ludicrous". And while it may have been meant as a tounge-in-cheek post, the intention, once again, was clear. -Al

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04-26-2007, 02:08 PM

Posted By: Cobby33<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1177531665.JPG">

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04-26-2007, 02:11 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethYou are "definately" right (only seen that one spelled wrong 1000 times).

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04-26-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Kenneth A. CohenThe way I see it ,you slabheads are overly sensitive. And you raw dudes are insensitive brutes. One thing for certain though - we are all ostensibly responsible adults with a strong penchant for spending large sums of money for little pieces of old cardboard with a picture of a dead guy on it. Many might deduce that we're all morons.

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04-26-2007, 02:24 PM

Posted By: JimBFrank said, "1), but now also pay someone a fee each month so they can know what their card is worth... That seems ludicrous, too." Frank, Did you know they had price guides even in the age of dinausors? The difference is that the online sites record actual final sale prices rather than numbers thrown out by dealers that may have been dictated by their current inventories or other issues that raise conflicts of interest. Other than being rude and offensive at every turn, you strike me as somebody who absolutely cannot or will not think outside of the 1975 box. Things change! Sometimes they change for the better. One example is price "guides" based on actual verifiable sales. JimB

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04-26-2007, 03:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWell we have a "consensus of 3".....that objectively understood the gist of Frank's post....unfortunately, we are a minority on this board. Everyone else responding has taken it as a "jab" at the grading industry. And, PAUL M.....let's reprise your latest remarks..... "Fanatic This would be a useful time to explain to your grandchildren the dangers of fanatic ideologies, unwavering in their views of the world and unbending in the face ofoverwhelming logic to the contrary. Explain to them that Grandpa has no interest in questioning his own value system and is interested instead in only challenging the values of others." Who are you to tell me anything regarding any member of my family. My oldest Grandchild is in his 1st year in College and doing great. I have been his Father figure for most of his life since his Dad passed away when he was a youngster. He is a great kid and is an "A" student in Engineering at the U of Maine. YOU HAVE CROSSED THE LINE....with your above remarks....its bad enough that your negative language is directed at me, but now you have expanded it to my Grandchildren and that is beyond the pale. You are despicable....I do not want to hear from you again. TED Z

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04-26-2007, 03:08 PM

Posted By: barrysloateMaybe we need to take a break here. And there is a board rule that we should not talk about anyone's family, so I think Paul's post was inappropriate.

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04-26-2007, 03:11 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBarry, thanks; I was starting to lose it. Jim makes a good point. The old price guides contained prices of Nm, Ex and VG and then when you went to a show everything was Nm in the dealers' eyes, even the dog-eared cards. The reason why the pricing sites make sense is that, like any market which contains buyers and sellers, you can learn the most recent sales prices -- which is the best indicator as to what a card is worth going forward. The pricing sites simply gather up that public info and put it into an easily navigated, one-stop-shopping site. The fact is, they are very helpful and have saved me big money thus far. Cobby's point is one that I've made a hundred times: get beat for $1000 on a fake card just one time and you'll become a slabhead in no time -- presuming that you spend some serious money on cards. No one likes to get beat and the third party services are your best bet to avoid that (usually).

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04-26-2007, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Whilst we did not take the initial post as a "jab" to the grading industry, we took it as a "jab" to those who prefer graded cards. With statements like: "We'll tell you what to collect, SGC and PSA will tell you what it is you've collected, and some cardpriceonthenetdotcomknucklehead can tell you what it's worth. Collecting on autopilot! With all the worries removed!! Like cruise control. Like that parallel parking system... like a mutual fund where the fund manager makes the decisions." How could we not take it as a jab? The most important thing I leaned in my first college English class was to substitute the word "you" with "one." Here, that could have made all the difference, regardless, it seems clear that the initial post was suggesting that those who get their cards graded and/or subscribe to pricing periodicals/websites, are a bunch of sheep who could and should be led anywhere they're told. I don't think one would have to read too far into the initial post to acquire that understanding.

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04-26-2007, 03:15 PM

Posted By: leonJust so everyone on earth knows my biggest PET PEEVE with 0 tolerance is mentioning people's families. I have struck that paragraph from Paul's remarks. All of us are fair game....NO ONE'S family is. Thanks for your understanding. It is very rare that I edit a post except to resize scans. Mention anything about anyone's family and I will censor so fast it will make your head spin. This isn't personal either...it goes for everyone....thanks and sorry if I offended anyone. edited to add I do note that Ted (hi Ted) did bring up his grandchildren first so there is a little mitigation there....we can talk about our own family...I won't stop that....but no one can talk about others families.....At least I do understand that Paul didn't really start that...but that board rule is very firm...I will always over compensate on it...

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04-26-2007, 03:31 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI was not bringing family members into the equation. I was suggesting Ted set a better, more open-minded example. But since I obviously upset him, I will send him a personal e-mail apologizing. [Edited to add, that I sent an apology by personal e-mail to Ted.] Disagreements about valuing baseball card collections are not folly for making people feel that they have been personally attacked. I do not believe that I crossed the line in this regard, but I can understand how a reasonable interpretation of my remarks could be miscontstrued that way. And, for those offended, I do offer a sincere apology.

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04-26-2007, 03:31 PM

Posted By: PCDeja vu. A rule is a rule, and Leon does a great job keeping order around here, but IMO Paul only responded to a hypothetical, and there was nothing directed personally at anyone's family. If posts are going to be uniformly deleted because of people's heightened sensitivities to imaginary attacks, then this thread (and many others) wouldn't exist.

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04-26-2007, 04:02 PM

Posted By: JohnFor the record, Leon I understand you cant catch them all. But I didn’t see Paul taking any shots at Ted’s family he was just trying to make a point. In fact I seem to remember this thread where Daniel gave James parenting advice that was certainly harsher than anything Paul said to Ted. “Doesn't bother you so much? That's great, no doubt your children will appreciate your devotion to freedom of speech were they to experience such defiling description. You'll be their absolute hero, no doubt!” <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1176390572/last-1176406078/moderating+on+the+board#bottom" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1176390572/last-1176406078/moderating+on+the+board#bottom</a> Yet no edit or delete on that one…

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04-26-2007, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI think references to a generic family or family members are different than actually calling out an inidividual's family member. Paul didn't mean anything insulting and Ted is, rightly so, sensitive about his family. Just a miscommunication in my opinion.

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04-26-2007, 04:10 PM

Posted By: JohnAgreed Jeff well said. Handsome, smart and a baseball card collector Lichtman is the full package! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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04-26-2007, 04:11 PM

Posted By: E, DanielCould you at least explain where that statement came in terms of the thread. Edited to add: Its probably silly of me to ask that of you because in that particular thread I ended up in an ongoing series of private emails to you, in which you constantly misinterpreted who my posts were directed to....and I don't want to really have to go through each of those posts again to make them clearer. I too, apologize, if I offended anyone's children or family. Daniel

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04-26-2007, 04:15 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAhh, but John, if only I could figure out that damn photoshop...I'd be deadly behind this computer.

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04-26-2007, 04:19 PM

Posted By: JohnDaniel I don’t have too, I have link to the entire thread....I wasn't going for a play by play of your morality/freedom of speech danger lecture with James here. I was just pointing out too Leon a gray area in which I though Paul got hammered on. That’s all is that ok, with you?

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04-26-2007, 04:21 PM

Posted By: E, DanielBut parsing out quotes from long threads is not always an accurate representation of what was said. Of course, no one needs to tell you anything, and I won't be starting. Daniel

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04-26-2007, 04:37 PM

Posted By: JohnDaniel since once again it’s the E, Daniel show. You emailed me several times after you threw down in the thread, directly to James and I before it was locked explaining how I was not as worldly traveled or as enlightened as you. In which I politely told you to pound sand. Then you continued to email your drivel to me, then you emailed back saying you were directing those to someone else disregard. How many wonkaticket’s do you have in your email system again?? Regardless if any one needs to tell me anything or not. Daniel I can assure one thing you are the last guy I’ll be looking for advice from. Lighten up Daniel.

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04-26-2007, 04:44 PM

Posted By: E, DanielAmazing you can take from what I just posted that I was putting on a show. And your hostility totally fails to match anything I've said to you. But if you've found yourself a villain you wish to ongoingly engage, I guess I can't do much to change your mind. Daniel

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04-26-2007, 04:54 PM

Posted By: JohnDaniel…thanks but not in the market for a villain right now, besides I would want to be the villain anyone who reads comics will tell you the villains are the best! Besides there are only 2 super heroes here in my book! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/445.jpg"> Also for the record villains are generally exciting, ruthless & cunning and a worthy adversary. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/250px-Dickdastardly.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/dastardly.gif"> Daniel you’re mildly annoying at best. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/steve_urkel_jpg_w300h248.jpg"> Look Barry & Jeff I didn’t put “your”

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04-26-2007, 04:59 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDick Dastardly. Now there is a name from my youth. I can't tell you how psyched I was when my kids found the Boomerang cartoon channel on TV and on came Wacky Races with Dick Dastardly and Muttley. Is there a better cartoon character than that snickering dog? I think not. Edited to add: John, you are to be commended for your you're. Just think how confused Barry and I would be if your you're would have been you're your!

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04-26-2007, 04:59 PM

Posted By: barrysloateExcellent John <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> How come Leon gets to be in all your pictures with Mr. Mint? You realize they are dressed as the Ambiguously Gay duo?

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04-26-2007, 05:00 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff- look at the time. We both posted at 6:59. We did it again!

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04-26-2007, 05:01 PM

Posted By: leonI understand Paul wasn't attacking Ted's family members per se. I get it. Please understand that I am hyper-sensitive to a few things. 1. Anything to do with family members. 2. Protecting anyone, especially a banner advertiser. I will over compensate in these 2 areas. I have already exchanged emails with Paul. I don't think he (hi Paul) was attacking a family member he was only referencing what Ted had already said, as my edit states. Trust me guys...you might all hate me or leave but I will continue to be overly protective of family members. We can argue amongst ourselves all day and it's ok, though I would prefer we didn't. I won't apologize for my policy in these 2 areas mentioned. I would rather be safe than sorry....I still think most of what Frank said in the first post was tongue in cheek but I do see how it was construed differently. It's very difficult to get expressions and personal idiosyncracies through a keyboard. best regards edited grammar though I still stink at it

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04-26-2007, 05:02 PM

Posted By: JohnShhhh Barry don’t let the cat out of the bag on Leon, he told us about his "type card" lifestyle in confidence remember? Agreed Jeff, Dick Dastardly was the best; in fact somewhere on my computer I have cell phone ring tone of Muttley’s laugh. Good stuff!

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04-26-2007, 05:11 PM

Posted By: leonI don't delete threads unless it's an absolute troll. I will lock them but not delete them. That way if I have a change of heart I can unlock. If I delete, it's gone. Also, John- you are correct. I don't catch every single innuendo in every thread. If I do see stuff about family members I will take care of it. I will also try to be more careful (less sensitive) about folks generically saying something as opposed to really getting personal. The best censoring is no censoring in my book.....thanks again