The Card: Collectors, Con Men, ERRORS, etc.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I started reading this book today, and have worked my way through the first three chapters. I don't want to pass judgment on it just yet, but I have already found several errors that will really irritate vintage card collectors. At one point, they mention that three players in the T206 set were in the first class of the Hall of Fame - Wagner, Cobb and Johnson. Matty was left out. However, later on, they made it up to Matty by including him in the T204 set! Not only that, there are also, apparently, in existence T204 cards of Cobb, Young and Lajoie. What a scoop! You Ramly collectors have four more cards to find than you thought.<br /><br />There is more, but I don't want to ruin it for anyone. I still think it might be interesting, once I get past all the preliminary stuff. But these errors lend nothing to the authors' credibility. <br /><br />My favorite part, so far, is when they refer to Alan Rosen as the hobby's first celebrity. Whatever.<br /><br />Oh, as a T3 collector, I have to throw this in. On page 40, it is stated that the cards were redeemed for coupons. I'm pretty sure it was the other way around.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>What I want to know is: Are there before and after photos as was promised? We have already seen a great assembly of rumors and heresay here, but no actual evidence.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>There are no photos. There is a discussion of the photos. Apparently, there are the orignals, and there are three people - he identified them - who have photocopies of the photos. None of them, according to the authors, are willing to release the photos. Various reasons are given.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I am interested in reading what possible reason the owners of the before and after photos of the T206 Wagner have for not sharing them. If there are no before and after photos, then I am interested in seeing how this book is any different than the rumors that have been floating around in this hobby for years. Sounds like just more "I heard from a friend who I know is reliable that the card is trimmed."

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Let us know.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Sorry - my mistake. I meant to write that he identifies one of them. That would be Brian and Michael Wentz. They suggest the photocopies are inconclusive. A second person is described as a prominent collector of T206 cards, who hints that the photocopies may be doctored. The third is a dealer, who says he doesn't want to harm the hobby in general by bringing into question the top card. The question of whether or not Alan Ray still has the original photos isn't addressed.<br /><br />A lot of the book isn't really about the Wagner card. There are two chapters on Wagner's life, one about Rob Lifson's attempt to clean up the hobby, and a very interesting chapter about Michael Gidwitz and his collection. And there are eleven pages about John Cobb and Ray Edwards, which is a total waste of time. If you were expecting an in-depth expose, you might be disappointed.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>"My favorite part, so far, is when they refer to Alan Rosen as the hobby's first celebrity. Whatever."<br /><br /><img src="http://www.24hourforums.com/images/emoticons/sleep.gif"><br /><br /><br /><br />On a more serious note Mark, when you finish the book please give us a final synopsis regarding this author's position on the provenance of the T206 PSA 8 Wagner. Please try to differentiate his position based on facts from unimpeachable, or at least known sources as opposed to speculative innuendo from people who wish to remain anonymous. Thanks!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Sounds like the same rumors and innuendo. Nobody is willing to go on the record.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Apparently, Alan Ray's father bought an uncut sheet of T206 cards at a flea market for a very low price, and gave it to Ray to sell. The number of cards on the sheet is not discussed, but it did, according to Ray, also include a Plank. Alan Ray took the sheet to a card shop owned, I believe, by a dealer named Bob Sevchuk. It was there that the sheet was cut. I don't know if all the cards were individually cut at that time, but at least the Wagner and Plank were, and not really to exact size. <br /><br />Sevchuk, according to the book, did not have the funds to purchase the card, so he asked someone, I don't remember the name, to go to a card show nearby and make inquiries. The first person he approached was Bill Mastro, who stated his interest and left to see the card. He took Rob Lifson with him. Mastro didn't have the funds to purchase it, so Lifson bankrolled him. The author claims that Lifson wasn't even allowed in the back room to see the card; he was assigned to guard the door. After the deal was made, he was only allowed to glance at it for a few seconds.<br /><br />Alan Ray claims Mastro bullied him into selling him the card. He also notes that Mastro criticized it, pointing out that it had a wavy edge and a red print mark at the top. Ray needed the money, so he made the deal. Mastro repaid Lifson by giving him another Wagner, one that he quickly sold to Barry Halper, that now resides in the Hall of Fame. Halper paid $30,000 for his. <br /><br />I don't recall if the book covers whether or not Mastro was present when the card was cut from the sheet. However, one of the sources, I don't remember who, claims that Mastro said he was going to turn it into the most valuable card in the world, or something to that effect.<br /><br />Later on, when Ray saw the card after it had become well known, he thought right away that it had been altered. He had taken pictures of the card as it was before he sold it, but to this point, has declined to make them public. <br /><br />I don't have the book here with me right now, so all of this is from memory. Throughout the book the authors are very critical of Bill Mastro, and very complimentary of Lifson. In fact, there is one entire chapter devoted to Rob Lifson's efforts to clean up the hobby.<br /><br />The source of most of this information is, of course, Alan Ray. You will have to decide for yourself if you find him to be credible or not. There are details provided by Robert Lifson as well.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />After that synopsis, I'm ready to preorder from Border's.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Anyone still think O'Keeffe can be unbiased when writing about Mastro?<br /><br />O'Keeffe is no expert on baseball cards and I suppose that accounts for all the mistakes that even the editors wouldn't catch. He seems more suited to calling baseball players wives and asking them slimy personal questions.

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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />The plot definitely thickens with your latest post. I have to confess I've never heard of Alan Ray and I'm slightly skeptical over several points of the story. Thanks for the info. I'll probably buy the book based on what you've revealed.

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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>That way he can subpoena Ray and everyone else and get the documents into the public record.

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>2 points of extreme interest here...the card was unknown for 70+ years, the timing of PSA emerging and it grading this card. I wonder if the card was submitted to SGC or a panel of experts if it would pass. Does the Halper Collection Wagner still reside in the HOF? if so , what condition is it in?

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Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>I look forward to reading the book. One point, though, doesn't make much sense to me. Apparently, the folks interviewed for the book seem to make some issue of the allegation that the card, once cut from a sheet, was subsequently altered/trimmed and that "before and after" photos might or might not exist. Assuming the card was in fact hand-cut from a sheet, and regardless what one might think of that in terms of affecting its authenticity or value, the fact that it may have been subsequently re-cut (to straighten edges and/or meet appropriate T-206 dimensions) strikes me as pretty irrelevant. Mark

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />It is irrelevant except the buyer might want to know. Also, inquisitive collectors want to know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Has the new owner of the T206 Wagner come forward yet? He might be interested in what this book has to say, having paid $2.35 million for the card.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>I doubt he would care very much what the book say's<br /><br /><br />But i've had the book ordered on amazon for the past month. Although i doubt there will be any starteling revelations. It might be interesting.