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View Full Version : O/T, Slightly, Should Hodges Go In HoF Ahead of Santo


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02-27-2007, 12:59 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Gil Hodges actually came up from the minors prior to WWII and once again the Veteran's Committee is considering his nomination for the hall. If the Veteran's Committee will let in only Hodges or Santo, which should it be? <br /><br />My vote would be for Ron Santo simply because he's a great 3d baseman and there are not enough of them in the HOF. However, there are plenty of first basemen. Also, Gil is long gone so he's not around to enjoy going into the Hall anyway. Furthermore, in my opinion he was never the best at his position in the NL for any length of time. Whereas, Ron Santo was the best 3d baseman in the NL for several years. Some even thought he was comparable to Brooks Robinson.<br /><br />Peter

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02-27-2007, 01:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>is deserving...look at the stats, he was a great 3B, although with no post-season experience (he was one of my Cubbies, after all)...<br />He has fallen shy in the past, if I have heard correctly, because he is regularly campaigned against, by the ever warm and big-hearted Mr. Schmidt

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02-27-2007, 01:58 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I think order of induction means very little.<br /><br />It took Joe DiMaggio 7 years to be inducted, and people think it's a crime Cal Ripken didn't get 100 percent on his first year. As far as I know, most baseball players consider DiMaggio to be a good baseball player, despite the black smear on his name that he wasn't elected into the Hall within 0.5 seconds of his name being posted for voters. And, by the way, most historians consider Ripken to be a good player too.<br /><br />To me, the ludicrousness of the heated HOF voting percentage debates is that many people thought it unjust that Ripken and Tony Gwynn didn't get 100 percent of the vote (which, obviously, would be the highest percentage in history and the highest possible), even though no one who complained considers Ripken or Gwynn the best player ever. These people see high crime when Ripken and Gwynn get higher percentages that Cobb, Honus Wagner, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Walter Johnson and Joe DiMaggio-- even when these complainers consider these other players superior to Ripken and Gwynn.<br /><br />Ripken and Gwynn themselves would never say they should have received higher percentages than Babe Ruth and Willie Mays.

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02-27-2007, 02:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>I'm not sure that either Santo or Hodges truly belong among the HOF greats. I also think saying Ron Santo was Brooks Robinson's equal is a bit of a stretch (the former had 5 Gold Gloves and the latter 16). If I had to choose between those two, though, I'd pick Santo.

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02-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I would put in Santo this year because he was the best 3rd baseman in the NL between Mathews and Schmidt. He might have been the best in the majors if you don't count Killebrew and Allen as 3rd basemen (I'm not sure how much they played there) and if you agree that he was better overall than Brooks Robinson. I've never heard about Schmidt's campaign against him. Anyone have any details?<br /><br />

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02-27-2007, 02:10 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />In general I would agree with you that order of induction means little. But to people like Buck O'Niel it matters a great deal that they were nominated before they passed away.<br /><br />Also, for collectors it makes quite a bit of difference. The 5 HOF in the first class, their cards are hobby heavyweights whereas some of the people who came through the Veteran's Committee are virtually ignored.<br /><br />Peter

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02-27-2007, 02:32 PM
Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> I think Gil Hodges definitely deserves to go in before Santo. He was a multiple all-star player on one of the great teams in history and was I believe a multiple gold glover. I don't have his stats available but in the 50's when he played if you hit in the high 20's in home runs and high 90's in RBI's on a consistent basis and was a great fielder you have to be at least considered as well as playing in several World Series. The thing that I think really puts Hodges ahead of Santo is that he managed a team to one of the greatest upsets in 1969. Unfortunately he died too young at 48 years old. Hodges and Santo statwise are very similiar but if you had to pick one for the HOF I think Hodges intangibles as a leader puts him ahead. CN

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02-27-2007, 02:58 PM
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Both Santo and Hodges were great fielders and multiple GG winners. But GG voting has been notoriously poor since the inception of the award and as such is not really a good barometer of defensive skill. Certain players, including Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith and Jim Kaat were "automatically" given the award year after year. They certainly were great defensively but there are plenty of folks who will tell you that Clete Boyer should have won a GG or two over Robinson and in 1971 Graig Nettles lost the award to Robinson despite having one of the all time great fielding seasons.

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02-27-2007, 03:03 PM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i think both should be in the hall of fame. and not for the reasons of all the guys we name here and why are they in so why not santo or hodges. but consider these facts, hodges was the all-star 1st baseman of the national league from 1949-57. also, he held the nl record for hitting over 20+ homers for 11 consecutive years. and, at one time he was the 2nd leading hr hitter in nl history behind mel ott. lastly the dodgers of his era were perhaps the greatest team in the history of the nl. now for ron santo,from 1961-1973 he performed at the skill level of any 3rd baseman in the hall of fame.he was the nl all star 3rd baseman every year from 1963 thru 1973 except for 1 year. he also happened to have diabetes which ,i believe led to his rapid decline in production which hastened his early retirement.w/o the disease he probably hangs around 3 or 4 more years and pads his stats.imo, growing up (a sox fan) in chicago during the 1960's, i believed santo to be a much better player than billy williams or the 1960's version of ernie banks, without a doubt.

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02-27-2007, 03:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Who would you rather have on your team? A .270-hitting first baseman with good power, or one of the greatest third basemen ever. There are dozens of guys who did what Hodges did, only better. But how many third basemen could hit for power, draw walks and play great third base? I'd take Santo over Brooks Robinson any day, and I love Brooks. HOF third basemen George Kell and Fred Lindstrom aren't even in Santo's league. And there are far fewer third basemen in the HOF than any other position. While many collectors rant about grading companies and auction houses, I prefer to rant about the HOF. Isn't tomorrow the big day? Hopefully, the Veterans' Committee will give me something to cheer about this year. C'mon Minnie!

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02-27-2007, 03:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I have thought for years both should be in. Maybe this is the year.....

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02-27-2007, 03:55 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Both of them were 8 votes short on the last ballot 2 years ago, I'd like to see Santo get in because he's still alive and kicking. Gil Hodges can wait a few more years.<br /><br />Peter

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02-27-2007, 04:04 PM
Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> It would be nice for Gil to get in while his wife Joan Hodges is still alive. She has done a lot for local charities since her husband died in 1972.CN

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02-27-2007, 04:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Hodges first because hes been deserving longer..Santo also needs to go.

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02-28-2007, 08:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>Santo needs to be in the Hall Of Fame. In addition to being the best third baseman of his era, he is an awesome person. He is always working to help JDRF (juvenile diabetes), and has been a trooper through all of his medical problems. He is also a champion for his team and he lives and dies with the cubs. Baseball has missed the boat by not having Ronnie in the hall. I personally know Ron and really do not understand what the vetrins committee is looking for in not electing Ron.<br /><br />Ken

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02-28-2007, 09:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Hodges, Santo and Oliva should all be in. <br />I think anyone who is upset that a lifetime hitter of .276 who played the infield and had an average arm, average range and an average glove didn't get 100% of the votes is crazy. I think Ripken's media popularity contributed greatly to his first ballot induction. Yes, I know. THE STREAK. Hail, hail longevity.....

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03-01-2007, 05:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>To the original question.... no.<br /><br />The should both be inducted in 2009, side by side, when the Veterans Committee has been cured of their current affliction, rectal craniums. O'Doul should go in then, with Reulbach, too.<br /><br />That would be the right thing to do, so it won't happen.<br /><br /><br />Maybe what we need is an American Baseball Museum and Hall of Fame. And be seriously more selective about who gets in. I take that back, Gary Carter, Pete Rose, they could walk in anytime the bought a ticket. <br /><br />Frank.

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03-05-2007, 05:58 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Every year he picks up a few more votes, so eventually, he'll get in. Veteran's Committee is waiting for Ron Santo to croak. After that they will nominate him. It makes no sense, if your going to let him in anyway, you might as well nominate him so that he can enjoy it.<br /><br />Another thing that irks me is why do they have a good moral character requirement for getting into the HOF.<br /><br />You already have people like Ty Cobb, John McGraw, Ferguson Jenkins and others in the Hall who are not angels. It doesn't make any sense for this committee to judge the moral worthiness of an applicant.<br /><br />Peter

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03-05-2007, 07:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I think Hodges probably lost a year or maybe a year and a half to World War 2, so he might have nailed 400 homers without military service. I think he compares favorably to Ralph Kiner but also to Dale Murphy so is obviously (if not already apparent) a borderline candidate. Hodges was close to Kiner for a number of years' in the 70's HOF voting and well ahead of some other guys who got in. He was good to great in the field from what I have heard and won the Series with the Mets; two almost plusses. It's seems like he's one or two seasons away in many ways: 1 more World Series, one more 30 HR season, 1 more season over 100 RBI and I think he's in years ago. So again, the lost time to the war should be factored in. I think the lifetime BA works against him too. And I think there is a better argument for Hodges than Santo (whom I also feel should be in).<br /><br />Some other guys I believe should be in: Blyleven, Dahlen, Hernandez (Keith that is-on the Mazeroski factor that outstanding fielding should be rewarded, which would also enshrine a few other guys I cannot recall right now-outstanding fielding should be rewarded over the long haul IMHO). <br /><br />Here's a great site with HOF voting to start more arguments:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/default.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/default.htm</a>

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03-05-2007, 07:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I think it's interesting that Hodges was waaaaaay ahead of Snider in the voting when they were first on the ballot. Then Snider overtook Hodges and within a few more years was elected. I don't know how you explain that. For what it's worth, I do think Snider is more worthy than Hodges, so the voters eventually got it right.

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03-05-2007, 08:09 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />It was unfortunate that Duke Snider played the same time as Mantle and Mays. People thought of him as being a 2nd level center fielder however if you looked at his numbers historically he was one of the best center-fielders ever. After Mantle and Mays got in the Hall of Fame, the voters were ready to let in The Duke.<br /><br />Richie Ashburn had it worse because people thought he was the fourth best center-fielder, however, after the Duke got in, Richie eventually got in.<br /><br />Peter

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03-06-2007, 08:35 AM
Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I would have to give the nod to Hodges because of his managerial career in addition to his playing career. Without the managing, he doesn't deserve to be inducted.

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03-06-2007, 09:20 AM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>George,<br /><br />It doesn't work that way, it depends on the category that the ballplayer falls into. For instance that's why Buck O'Niel didn't get in, they were looking at his stats as a negro league player and the stats were not impressive. So he didn't get in.<br /><br />For Gil Hodges he falls into the player category, so they will be looking at the numbers solely. If they were looking at him as a manager, they would be looking at his managerial record only and he would fall short.<br /><br />Peter

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03-06-2007, 05:01 PM
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>...Kiner was a far better hitter than Hodges.

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03-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> Joe Torre is an interesting case. As a player he just falls short and as a manager he was a losing manager until he got to the high payroll Yankees. I wonder how he would have fared with the 1980,s Yankees. CN

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03-06-2007, 07:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>yes.

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03-15-2007, 01:06 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>CN,<br /><br />I agree that Joe Torre is an interesting situation. However, he should get in because he's an outstanding hitting catcher. Probably among the top ten hitting catchers of all time.<br /><br />The rub against him is that when he won the NL MVP he was playing third so that shouldn't help him move up on the list of best hitting catchers.<br /><br />Since his career as a manager isn't over yet, I wouldn't want to speculate where he ranks among managers.<br /><br />Peter

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03-15-2007, 01:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave Snyder</b><p>.......either should go in. Maybe in the "Hall of Better Than Average, Solid Ball Players" but not the Hall of Fame. There are literally people in the HOF that have double the numbers these guys do - hits, hr's, rbi, and the list goes on and on. Santo and Hodges were undeniably two fantastic ball players, but they were not among the GREATEST of all time. I disgaree with several people who have been voted in in recent years....and if the Mendoza line keeps dropping, pretty soon you'll see all the players on the fence get in, like:<br /><br />Dwight Evans<br />Jim Rice<br />Alan Trammell<br />Lou Whitaker<br />Bill Buckner<br />Dale Murphy<br />Dave Parker<br />Bill Madlock<br />Carney Lansford<br />Willie McGee<br />Dave Kingman<br /><br /><br />If you'd be proud of a hall of fame that had all these guys in it, then throw Santo and Hodges in too.<br /><br />I'd put Vada Pinson and Joe Torre in before all of them, and I'm a Red Sox fan!<br /><br />-Dave

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03-15-2007, 01:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>How about Ken Boyer. Boyer and Santo very close. But I think Boyer should go before Santo.

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03-15-2007, 02:05 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />Ken Boyer was a better fielding 3d baseman and Santo had more punch as a hitter. Now days, for a 3d baseman, it's more important to have somebody that can hit like A-Rod, so I would think that Santo should go in before Ken Boyer.<br /><br />Peter

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03-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Peter,<br />More punch? Santo more homeruns but slugging pct 462 to 464 and Boyer 10 points better BA

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03-15-2007, 05:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>I do appreciate the support for Ken Boyer. I believe he was as good a player as Santo. He hurt his back bad just a year after his '64 MVP, which curtailed his career by a few years. I'm not sure his ballpark was a hitter-friendly as Wrigley Field, but he didn't play his peak years in the late 60s, when batting averages reached their lowest pre-WWI point. Ken Boyer, like Ron Santo, is a highly underappreciated player. And they both play third base, arguably the hardest to fill position ...

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03-15-2007, 06:39 PM
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>It was not the war that sunk Hodges chances it was playing in the Los Angeles Coliseium and batting right handed. After the Dodgers moved to Los Angeles they played in this area and the field that Hodges hit most of his homeruns/doubles to in Ebbets became a cavern...right center and right field were over 400 feet dropping off to 390 and then a steep drop off down the line...Hodges was a pull hitter and in Brooklyn hit most of his HRs to right center...in Los Angeles everything dropped for him including hits, hrs, doubles, and eventually games...put him in!<br /><br />Joshua

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03-15-2007, 07:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>It took Joe DiMaggio 7 years to be inducted, </I><br /><br />David, Joe D retired in 1951 and he was inducted into the HOF in 1955. Rumors that he was going to un-retire and sign with the Pirates are said to be the main reason he was not elected in his first year of eligibility. [In the 50's, there was a one year waiting period after retirement before possible induction. The wait is five years now.]<br /><br />BTW, I can't see either Santo or Hodges in the Hall. <br><br>Frank

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03-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />Well if Joe Dimaggio is your standard for the Hall of Fame then it's obvious Santo and Hodges should not get in.<br /><br />However, Ron Santo is probably within the top 10 third basemen of all time, he should be in.<br /><br />Hodges is a more difficult case because there are so many good first basemen already in and some knocking on the door. Hodges would be in the top 25, maybe, among the first basemen.<br /><br />Peter

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03-16-2007, 05:37 PM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>just think....if there never was a veterens commitee,we would never have a thread like this. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> and the hall of fame would be nenamed the baseball HALL OF GREATS.

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03-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>Frank,<br /><br />Well if Joe Dimaggio is your standard for the Hall of Fame then it's obvious Santo and Hodges should not get in.<br /><br />However, Ron Santo is probably within the top 10 third basemen of all time, he should be in.<br /></I><br /><br />Peter, I don't find any mention in my post about Joe D being my standard HOFer...do you? I was merely responding to an inaccuracy in a prior post. <br /><br />I understand you like Mr. Santo, but do you have any credible facts to support his inclusion into the Hall? <br />How about his being among the "top 10 third basemen of all time"? Here are ten Hall of Fame third sackers, which one is Santo better than?<br /><br />Frank Baker <br />Wade Boggs <br />George Brett <br />Jimmy Collins <br />George Kell <br />Freddie Lindstrom <br />Eddie Mathews<br />Brooks Robinson <br />Mike Schmidt <br />Pie Traynor<br /><br /><br />Remember, Santo hit .277 lifetime. He never finished in the top three in MVP voting and he never made the post-season. He has failed to win election in numerous votes by the writers and the veterans committees. He was a very good player, but not a Hall of Famer.<br><br>Frank

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03-16-2007, 09:42 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />Santo is clearly better than George Kell and Freddie Lindstrom. He's as good if not better than Frank Home Run Baker and Jimmy Collins.<br /><br />Peter

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03-16-2007, 11:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter, I agree that Santo is better than Lindstrom and Kell. It's not even close. I'd take Ken Boyer over those two guys as well. Jimmy Collins must have been a pretty good player for Connie Mack to put him on his all-time team in '51, but even if he was Brooks with the glove, I'd still take Santo over him. But I wouldn't put him above Home Run Baker. His offensive numbers in the Dead Ball Era were amazing. I'd certainly consider John McGraw on the list as well, but like Collins, he's hard to judge since his best years are in the 19th century during a live ball era. By the way, didn't McGraw have the highest average ever for the hot corner? So even by conservative standards, Santo is clearly a Top Ten third baseman in my estimation. Isn't that good enough for Cooperstown? What other position has fewer representatives in the HOF? None are even close. Third base, for better or worse, is the hardest position on the field to fill, even tougher than catcher. Look at how many decades some teams like the Cubs, the Dodgers (until Ron Cy came along) and the Mets (remember Hubie Brooks?) searched for a third baseman ...

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03-17-2007, 07:20 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>No.

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03-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />It's difficult to compare Home Run Baker and Ron Santo because they are from significantly different eras. However, I will also give the edge to Baker because of his post season performances. By the way, he earned the nickname of Home Run Baker for his hitting against Matty and the NY Giants.<br /><br />Peter

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03-30-2007, 10:26 AM
Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>I see the Cubs Kool-Aid is being served in abundance today! After all, Opening Day is Monday.<br /><br />Santo is one of the top 10 3rd basemen of all time?!! You cannot be serious. Can you?!<br /><br />There's a reason that 3rd base has the least number of members in the Hall. It's a tough position! Santo was an ok player, and was on a team that perhaps is the biggest chokers of al time. <br /><br />Hall of Fame? No way.

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03-30-2007, 11:17 AM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />While Baker and Santo played in different eras, they both played their best years during eras when hitters faced severe challenges. Baker played most of his career in the Dead Ball era, while Santo played most of his career in the 1960s, when pitchers dominated. To illustrate Santo's excellence, in an era where offensive stats don't look very impressive, let's look at what Santo accomplished in 1968, the same year Carl Yastrzemski won the AL batting crown with a measily .301 average. Santo hit an unimpressive .246. But he drove in 98 runs (second in the league), walked 98 times (first in the league), played in 162 games, and won the Gold Glove at third base. And this was considered an off-year for him ...

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03-30-2007, 12:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Bill James offers than Ron Santo is the best eligible player not in the HOF. I agree.<br /><br />There can be an argument over should he be elected, certainly. But from a career value perspective, Santo was worth alot more to his team than Hodges.

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03-30-2007, 12:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I'd love to see your list of 10 third basemen who were better than Santo ...

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04-01-2007, 09:16 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Bill James considers Ron Santo to be the 6th best 3d baseman of all time. Just compare Ron's numbers with Brooks Robinson who is arguably the 2nd best 3d baseman of all-time.<br /><br />Brooks basically has a few more gold gloves and clutch during post-season, otherwise Ron Santo would have the edge.<br /><br />Peter

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04-01-2007, 10:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The facts are that in 15 years of voting by the BBWAA, Santo never even came close to election, achieving a total over 40% just once [43% in 1998.] The Veterans Committe has also deemed him unworthy of Hall status. <br><br>Frank

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04-06-2007, 04:55 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />This Veteran's Committee doesn't know what it's doing. Both Hodges and Santo should have gone in this time.<br /><br />Peter

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04-06-2007, 05:09 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I guess the writers who didn't vote them in over a 15 year period didn't know what they were doing either. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Frank

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04-06-2007, 05:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>The credibility of the Hall of Fame has long been compromised by the cronyism and politics of its voters. Just because someone was a great player or a well-known sportswriter doesn't mean they understand the complexities of baseball history ... <br /><br />Also statistics are deceptive, and that is why Bill James' studies are so invaluable. James isn't perfect, but he's come up with the best system so far to evaluate the true productivity of players. You just can't look in the baseball encyclopedia and compare Fred Lindstrom and Pie Traynor with Ken Boyer and Ron Santo. They played in completely different eras ...<br /><br />As for Santo, it is my belief he has pissed off at least a few voters with his campaigning for enshrinement in the HOF. Just as Minnie Minoso clearly did when he kept trying to be the oldest guy to get a hit (he was banned for it, no joke). How else can you explain why Buzzie Bavasi got three times the votes as Minoso in the last election. Can anybody here tell me why Bavasi should be in the HOF? Mark my words, one day they'll be pushing to put Bud Selig in the Hall. Why? Because he belongs to the same "old boy's club" as Bavasi ... <br /><br />

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04-07-2007, 10:11 PM
Posted By: <b>J McKenna</b><p>I've been a long time lurker, but until now haven't added to any discussions. I've enjoyed the "vintage" myopia of many contributors. Somehow, if you played before the advent of night baseball or color TV, you are automatically better than any "modern" player. The argument that Frank Baker is one of the ten greatest 3rd basemen of all time is a classic. Ok, he did hit over .300 six times, never coming close to winning a batting title. He did lead the AL in homers 4 straight years, hitting a combined 41 homers in that span. He finished with a fantastic career total of 96 dingers. Now I know you all will begin with your dead ball era smack. It's always interesting to hear the congregation rise up to defend a ball player no one ever saw play. We are currently in an era where 3rd basemen rule. Look at this list: Chipper Jones, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, and AROD, with Garrett Atkins and Ryan Zimmerman waiting in the wings. A case could be made that AROD and Chipper Jones are already in the top 10. Miguel Cabrera and David Wright have made nice starts to their careers. Frank Baker couldn't beat out a single guy on that list.

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04-08-2007, 12:02 AM
Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>His career batting average adjusted to the league average (.307) is surpassed in history only by Wade Boggs and George Brett. No one playing today should even be mentioned in the same breath except for AROD and Chipper Jones. Baker also has them all beat in post season batting average.

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04-11-2007, 12:52 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>George,<br /><br />I'll agree that Home Run Baker was better than Ron Santo but not by much. Arod will probably be thought of as a shortstop so he's not a competitor. Chipper is a better hitter but doesn't field as well as Ron.<br /><br />Peter

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04-11-2007, 02:22 PM
Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>To me the Veterans Committee is there only to correct some blatant oversight. Neither man got in during his many years of regular eligibility, and neither is a compelling case -- while arguably the equal of some already inducted, they would be marginal at best, and the Hall is already overstuffed.

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04-11-2007, 02:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>"To me the Veterans Committee is there only to correct some blatant oversight ..."<br /><br />You mean, an oversight like Bill Mazeroski?

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04-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>"His career batting average adjusted to the league average (.307)"<br /><br />how does one calculate that?<br />thanks!<br />Jason L<br /><br />edited to say: Awww, c'mon Chris...you know as well as I do that Maz is a National Treasure! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />He gives me hope that I still have a shot at making it in. After all, I've watched more games on TV than he played in!

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04-11-2007, 02:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>I've got nothing against Bill Mazeroski ... just last week I picked up a razor sharp 1959 Topps card of him on eBay for about $5 ... Clearly, card collectors think less of him than Veterans Committee members ...

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04-11-2007, 02:53 PM
Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Not sure exactly how it is figured. Bill James is the one who calculated it. I'm out of my home state right now, so I don't have access to my sports library and my volume of "Total Baseball" for reference purposes.

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04-11-2007, 03:23 PM
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>But his ACTUAL average was in fact .307.

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04-11-2007, 03:28 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />Quit picking on poor Maz, I don't know, the all time best fielding 2nd baseman and a World Series hero. That sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.<br /><br />Also, the Hall of Fame isn't too crowded. People have already informally decided that first ballot Hall of Famers are the upper crust and everybody else is 2nd tier.<br /><br />Peter

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04-11-2007, 06:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I actually like Bill Mazeroski. I've always been partial to slick fielding, clutch players. But there's a great piece in Bill James' Baseball Abstract that gets to the heart of the Mazeroski HOF argument. He goes into great depth comparing Mazeroski and Willie Randolph in virtually every category, then he adjusts the numbers to account for the fact the two played in slightly different eras. I came away convinced Randolph was a significantly better player than Mazeroski. Before I read the article, I never considered Randolph HOF material. I'm not sure if I do now.<br /><br />And if Randolph is better than Mazeroski, what about Lou Whitaker, who was clearly better than Randolph?

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04-11-2007, 06:26 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />But the reason why Maz is in is because he's the best fielding second baseman of all time. And although Randolph and Whitaker may be better all around they are not better fielders than Mazeroski.<br /><br />After saying that, I do think in the long run Whitaker will get in and Randolph won't.<br /><br />Peter

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04-11-2007, 08:01 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>And although Randolph and Whitaker may be better all around they are not better fielders than Mazeroski</I><br /><br />I'm not clear as to how a <B>better fielder</B> should be in the HOF over a <B>better player</B>?<br><br>Frank

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04-11-2007, 08:48 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />It's called a Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Goody Two Shoes or the Hall of the Better Player or...<br /><br />Maz did two things which made him famous, his fielding and the home run in the 1960 World Series. In my mind that's enough for him to be famous and deserving of the Hall of Fame.<br /><br />Peter

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04-11-2007, 09:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Just curious Peter if you think Roger Maris should be in the Hall?<br><br>Frank

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04-11-2007, 09:54 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />With Roger it's a close call, but I would say no. Of course, he's famous for hitting 61 homers but that was accomplished over one season. <br /><br />Because of the HOF's ten-year requirement, really we should look at accomplishments over an entire career. So even though Don Larsen throws a perfect game in the World Series he wouldn't be a Hall of Famer.<br /><br />Peter

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04-11-2007, 10:23 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>Maz is in is because he's the best fielding second baseman of all time</I><br /><br />I think Ryne Sandberg fans would question that. Maz was a good fielder, but the best ever? I looked up two second basemen Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. If you go by fielding percentge I see Sandberg at .989, Alomar at .984 and Maz at .983. Maz had 204 errors in about 5,000 chances while Ryno had 109 errors in almost 4,000 chances. Not very close there.<br><br>Frank

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04-12-2007, 05:00 AM
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Frank, much of the case for Maz as the best 2B is actually contained in what you wrote. He and Sandberg played in roughly the same number of games but Maz had a THOUSAND more chances than Rhino. He also participated in far more double plays. A six point advantage in fielding average does not make up for that.<br /><br />Howard

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04-12-2007, 01:53 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />Maris is a borderline Hall of Famer because his career is almost adequate. If he had won an additional MVP with the Cardinals, he probably would be in the Hall.<br /><br />Peter

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04-12-2007, 02:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>If they put Maris in the Hall, that would really open up a can of worms. Take away his two great seasons (1960 and 1961), and he was a pretty average player, although he did have decent power. I just compared his stats with those of Leon "Daddy Wags" Wagner, whose career mirrored the Yankee outfielder, and there's not a big difference between the two. Needless to say, Honus is the only guy named Wagner worthy of Cooperstown. If they ever put Maris in the HOF, they might as well put in every one-shot wonder (or two-shot wonder, in his case). Maris wasn't even the best non-HOFer in 1961. Norm Cash gets the nod with 41 homers, a .361 average (nearly 100 points higher than Maris) and a .487 on-base-average ...

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04-12-2007, 02:41 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />That's why Maris needed a third MVP, then he would have been among a very small group of elite Hall of Famers that have three. As a matter of fact, 3 MVPs was the record before Barry Bonds came along.<br /><br />Peter

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04-12-2007, 04:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I would have given the 1961 MVP to Mantle. Outside of 1956-57, it was by far his best year ...

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04-12-2007, 05:00 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />I agree with you. Also, if Mantle's legs had held up he would have broken Ruth's record. With Maris batting right after him and providing "protection," Mickey should have broken Ruth's record first.<br /><br />Peter

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04-12-2007, 08:32 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>I agree with you. Also, if Mantle's legs had held up he would have broken Ruth's record. With Maris batting right after him and providing "protection," Mickey should have broken Ruth's record first.<br /><br />Peter</I><br /><br /><br />Hooray, we finally agree on something!<br /><br />Maris had ZERO intentional walks in 1961! No one wanted to pitch to Mickey.<br><br>Frank

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04-20-2007, 02:04 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Frank, <br /><br />Can you imagine the Mick with healthy legs batting lead-off on your all-time greats team. When Mantle was young he was the fastest going from home to first base, and of course, he was a switch-hitter. What more could you want from a lead-off hitter. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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04-25-2007, 02:36 PM
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Well, Ron Santo is in the hospital again, I hope that he gets well soon.<br /><br />Peter