How Great was Jackie Robinson?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Damian</b><p><i>Disclaimer</i><br /><br />Not to bash a guy on his "day", but<br /><br /> i was wondering how great was Jackie Robinson? As i look through these threads from time to time i notice many folks list him as there 2nd basemen on all teams. ( i think i remember seeing that ) Is he worthy of this? Was he that good? i realize the importance of Jackie Robinson but i truely don't know where he actually ranks in the discussion of alltime 2nd basemen. The only thing i really have for background is his stats and comparable players off of Baseball Reference.com. By looking at similar batters / comparable players the comparison to Greg Jeffries and Jeff Cirillo had me wondering. Obviously he was better.. how much? It would seem to me the Maz, Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Lajoie etc. are a level above. I don't know maybe someone can educated me.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>I think given the fact that he started @ 28, played only 10 seasons and put up with a load of crap, his accomplishments are quite remarkable. I don't think I have ever heard him referred to as the greatest 2B of all time. I'd go with Eddie Collins there.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Justin</b><p>I just read a biography of him, and I agree that his stats don't tell the whole picture. He had a couple amazing years most notably 1949, could do everything very well, and was generally regarded as the key to the Dodgers success. <br /><br />He could beat you in so many ways, and his modest stolen base totals don't really tell the story of his baserunning feats. All sorts of accounts exist of him upsetting pitchers when he was on base, allowing his teammates at bat to draw walks or get hits. <br /><br />He played a very hard nosed style which led to injuries, plus he came into the majors at age 28 and retired relatively young. If you add say 3 years of play to his career, his stats would look alot more impressive.<br /><br />Finally, he spent his first couple of seasons playing under the restraints set by Branch Rickey, to not fight back and to turn the other cheek. His first two seasons are very good by any standard, but I don't think any player has ever had to play under such duress.<br /><br />The stats don't really tell the story, very few players can be described as iconic, but Jackie is one of them. I think he would have stood out even if he wasn't the first to break the colorline.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>T E</b><p>Jackie was a revolutionary figure in baseball history. He totally changed the way baseball was played. Greatest 2nd baseman of all time? I don't know. Maybe not. But his importance to baseball and American history far exceeds the parameters of that question.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Damian</b><p><br />thats why i meant in just a pure baseball player point of view. How good of a second baseman/ball player was he. All the other stuff aside ( if it can infact be put aside ) where does he ranks? top 5 top 10 ? thats what i wondering. <br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>T E</b><p>I would take Jackie over Maz (are we actually comparing Bill Mazeroski to Jackie?) and the much more talented than Maz Joe Morgan. Lajoie is so far back I don't know how to compare, and Hornsby clearly was one of the greatest hitters of all-time, but why the heck were teams so anxious to see him gone? No, gimme Jackie, dancing off third.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>When talking about Jackie I think that there are two oft forgotten things that need to be considered when his greatness <br /><br />1. He totally changed the style of play in the majors- up through the mid 50's there were TEAMs that would only steal 50 bases per year- Jackie change the pereception of the stolen base and base running as a offensive weapon (or at least dusted off a weapon that had been disguarded in the 1930's <br /><br />2. More importantly I think when people look at his greatness that have to remember that contempoary accounts all seem to says that baseball was his 3rd or 4th best sport behind football basketball, track (some even through in tennis) therefore when you think of him it really isn;t fiar to compare him to Maz or Morgan- compare him to Jordan (Jordan when he was playing minor league baseball). <br /><br />add on all of the extra pressure from being the first and somke underrated defensive skills (see Bill James essay which suggestes that he had great defensive stats when you consider the manner in which great positioning can make you look less spectacular when infact you are making more plays then you should) and you can easily see that he ranks right up there.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Though no one can take away his accomplishments. They speak for themselves. I did read several times over the years, that Branch picked Jackie, as much for his demeanor, and personality, as he did for his athelic ability. According to a reliable source, there were better ball players than Jackie, in the negro Leagues, but Branch knew it required much more than that. And Jackie certainly proved him right. Can you imagine if Branch had brought up some super athlete with Bond's personality? The establishment would have said "See blacks don't belong in the bigs. Look at how they behave". Branch was a bright man it seems.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Damian</b><p><br />insult any ballplayer comparing him to Jordan in a baseball sense. Sorry, if you wanna go with multiple sports stars a Thorpe, a Jackson, a Jim Brown.. but Jordan? Borderline laughable. IMO

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>he was derek jeter with speed.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>I think that you are mis reading my Jordan comparison the point is to show how difficult it is to be truely great at more than one sport, how rarely greatness is really found over a range of athletic displines- as to the other two sport stars you mention I really think that the Jackie towers over all of them as well <br /><br />Brown great at football and lacross both similar skill sets, thrope a great runner in track and football but not really that much of a baseball player- i know that he had a couple of years hitting over 300 but he did it in limited time in an era whn everyone with a pulse hit over 300 ands Jackson really just a fast strong guy who never hit for much of a BA in the majors

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>In 1999, the world voted for Jackie Robinson as the second-baseman on baseball's All-Century Team. Robinson received over 788,000 votes and Hornsby received over 630,000. Therefore, not only has Robisnon been called the greatest second-baseman of all-time, but he was also voted on by over 788,000 people!<br /><br />Now the question is how great was he? Bill James calls him one of the greatest percentage players in history. Part of his player formula includes how great of a percentage guy a player was - caught-stealing percentage, fielding percentage, on-base percentage, slugging percentage and batting average among other things goes into this formula. James said Jackie was one of the greatest if not the greatest percentage player ever.<br /><br />Jackie had speed, a little pop, a great glove, guts and talent. Others put up greater numbers, but when it comes to instincts, talent and being a baseball player, I think of Mays and Jackie.<br /><br />Had Jackie started at age 19 and played to 41, who knows what we'd be saying about him?<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>To even suggest that Jackie Robinson as a player might belong in the same class as Gregg Jeffries is simply a result of not watching the man play. Speak to people who saw Robinson play and you'll get your answer as to how great a player he was.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Damian</b><p>thats what i said.... <br /><br />"i realize the importance of Jackie Robinson but i truely don't know where he actually ranks in the discussion of alltime 2nd basemen."<br /><br />"By looking at similar batters / comparable players the comparison to Greg Jeffries and Jeff Cirillo had me wondering. Obviously he was better.. "<br /><br />two lines of a very small paragraph, pretty hard to miss actually, i was not comparing him to Greg Jeffries...but Baseball Reference does. That is why i asked a panel of what i would consider VERY knowledgable people to answer this question. Seeings how i live in a small town in Massachusetts & i am 32 years old, theres not much in a wealth of knowledge on Jackie Robinson here. My mother sat next to him at his sons ( her brothers ) little league or babe ruth game before and said hi when she was little. And she didnt know who he was until she got back to her dad's car and he told her who she was sitting next to, but that doesnt tell me how good/great of a ball player he was.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Jackie Robinson is the Derek Jeter type player with a different skill set. Probably the best defensive utility ballplayer ever. One of the greatest baserunners ever. Rightfully nominated to the all-century team at second base. Deserves all the glory reaped upon him by the powers that be.<br /><br />Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest, most important people to ever play the game BEFORE he laced up his spikes in Brooklyn for the first time.<br /><br />Statistically speaking, there were other players who were better. But none were greater.<br /><br />-Al<br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>he is overrated as a player, but is an icon. Hornsby should rate higher.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Justin</b><p>I honestly think Hornsby is the one who is overrated. His numbers are very impressive but the teams he played for seemed to have no problem cutting him loose even as he was putting up gaudy numbers. He managed the Cardinals to the World's Championship in 1926 and was traded in the off-season, and was traded 3 times in the span of two seasons right in his peak. <br /><br />I think his stats are inflated by both the era and his home park and he wasn't good defensively, plus he burned out relatively early in his career.<br /><br />I think Robinson was a better all around player, Hornsby a better pure hitter.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>i agree with you about Hornsby being the better hitter. thats why I would take him. Robinson was the better all-around athlete, more mobile. maybe the only other baseball player with more athleticism than Robinson was Bo Jackson?

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Robinson was a highly disruptive player while on the basepaths. That is not reflected in his numbers. I spent the weekend with someone who saw Jackie play and he told me that he was an incredibly great player due to that one factor.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The All Century team stuff is crap.... <br /><br />I don't mind living in a democracy, I just get annoyed when the majority automatically believes they're right. Sometimes a majority can be wrong. 788k votes to 630k over Hornsby, I deduce from that voting that the voters aren't well informed. Hornsby wasn't as good of a fielder, he was 1.5x a better hitter.<br /><br />That said, Jackie Robinson was a great, strong person. And a very good baseball player, deserving of his first year induction into the Hall of Fame. Jason nailed the style of play and competitiveness. <br /><br />If Robinson had been white and started in his early twenties, he'd have great stats, much better than what he has. <br /><br />Lesser men could not have done what he did. And his greatness transcends baseball. He was the first black man with a nationally syndicated newspaper column, for example. Sure, his baseball skills provided opportunities to do some of the things he accomplished. But few men could have done what he did.<br /><br />And you guys know his brother Mack was running track in Germany with Jesse Owens, came home with a silver medal, and when he sought a job in California they made him a streetsweeper.<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>Easily rates in the top 10 2nd Basemen of all time simply in terms of his playing (bracketing out the fact that he was likely the most significant player in the history of the major leagues). <br /><br />The knock on him (purely as a player) is that his career was realively short and therefore his career numbers don't compare well with the other top 2Bs. However, during his career he was incredibly valuable (like his teammate Campanella) to a great team. He was also a complete player and winner. That has to be balanced against other 2Bs with lots of lifetime hits (e.g. Biggio) who were never really in the hunt for the MVP and never led their teams to championships. BTW. I would put Biggio (and Alomar, too) in the HOF so I'm just saying that he falls beneath Robinson in my ratings.<br /><br />Guys like COllins, Lajoie, Hornsby and Morgan have both Biggio's long term stature and Robinson's "peak value" so I would have to put them above Robinson.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>Today on espn Dusty Baker compared him to Ricky Weeks and John Kruk said he was reminded of Placido Polanco. The Mets ex GM Steve Phillips said Craig Biggio. I never saw Robinson play, but have always assumed that he is highly regarded as a pioneer/ambassador in the socio-economic-political sense for his courage and intellect.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Jason Giambi and his good buddy Mark McGuire had terrible stats while going through a divorce. This is true of Frank Thomas and many others as well.Imagine the emotional toll on Jackie while being the burdon of a crucified Christ or Duke Lacrosse player for the breaking of the color barrier and how well he may have played if he came along a little later in time!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>Did you guys see Sydney Pollack in tonight's episode of the Sopranos? I think he missed his calling. He could have been a great actor. cheers!

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jackie was a better running back than baseball player. He was a superior version of Bo Jackson.<br /><br />Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>and Al C. Risafulli.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>growing up i played a lot of 2B and my brother (10 years older) was my coach.... after a game one time i remember my mom asking him how i did in the game and he said "well, he's no jackie robinson but he'll do"<br /><br />so i'm assuming he was pretty good