Let's Be Frank, Actually My Name Is Peter... [Archive]

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03-19-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, Let's say the bottom dropped out of the T-206 market. I'm not talking about a price adjustment. I'm talking about a major drop. I'll give you a possible scenario. Let's say that the steroid scandal got out of hand and people just felt that baseball was no longer America's pastime. The prices of T-206's were dropping each and every hour. Evertime you bought a UZIT back, the price of UZIT's would drop another hundred. Come on be real here, how many of you would still buy and if you continued to buy, which cards would you buy. Also, would it be important to you whether the market turned around. Why or why not. Peter

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03-19-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Steve DawsonI would love it....I might actually be able to get a Plank and Wagner <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Steve

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03-19-2007, 12:13 PM

Posted By: KevinHow about a more realistic scenario? Let’s say that any T206 card could be forged. As in counterfeit money, printing has never been the big problem...it’s the paper. IMO with some effort printing a T206 could possible be duplicated. If they could do it 100 years ago it doesn’t seem like it would be much of a problem with modern technology. Getting the exact paper with the proper cuts would be the only set back. What if the paper with cuts could be made and the printing somewhat perfected to the point it would be difficult to make an accurate assessment as to which is real and which is fake? Kevin

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03-19-2007, 12:13 PM

Posted By: dennisit would be great,just like the 70's, i would love it!

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03-19-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, Here's the point I was trying to make, most of you would either stop collecting or hope that the market turned around. This is the point I was hoping to make. Right now we collect T-206's because it's fun and the market is trending upwards. I'll be frank, it's more fun when the cards are increasing in value faster than my 401(k). And although I would still love baseball, it would be a lot less fun if the market continously trended downwards. It would come to the point where I just went to games and stop collecting. Or at least I would wait until the market started rebounding. Peter

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03-19-2007, 12:29 PM

Posted By: DaveSaying it would be less fun and you'd possibly stop collecting....well, aren't the modern cards you collect not going up in value the same as pre-war cards are now?

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03-19-2007, 12:41 PM

Posted By: peter chaoWell if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both. Peter

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03-19-2007, 12:45 PM

Posted By: Steve M.Kevin's post? Be afraid, be very afraid.

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03-19-2007, 12:46 PM

Posted By: Dave HornishI would buy Buy BUY! Especially pre WW1 stuff. Everything is cyclical so a downturn would mean more buying opportunties just like with the stock market.

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03-19-2007, 12:51 PM

Posted By: peter chaoKevin, Steve Well, isn't that what the grading companies are suppose to protect us against. Their the ones that detect counterfeiting and protect the hobby against the unscruplous. Peter

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03-19-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Steve M.I think Kevin's scenario suggests that maybe the fakes would be so good that even the grading companys could not detect them. Remember too that this "scenario" is coming from someone who knows of what he speaks. Be afraid, be very afraid.

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03-19-2007, 12:58 PM

Posted By: Mark LIf the bottom fell out because people stopped wanting the cards, I would buy up as much as I could because I think they're really great. I would regret the money I spent on them when the price was high but would console myself with the money I saved in not completing all those early sets. But if someday we found a glut of pre-war cards, I suppose I would feel less urgency to pick them up. If you want a realistic scenario, how about the following? The other day a member allowed that he owned 60,000 pre-1920 baseball cards. What if he and ten others with similar collectors decided to sell everything they had. Let's say a million pre-war cards hit ebay on the next dump day. and another million or two turned up the next week. After the collapse, I would pick up a few of the Wagner and Cobbs that I still want, finish some sets, and turn to other pastimes.

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03-19-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Peter, I think the collectors would still collect especially if the prices went real low,then they would be bidding against themselves and depending on how much extra money they had it might drive the price right back up. Its hard to imagine with baseball cards that they would drop like coins or stamps or art could because baseball players have stats and teams behind them. Whos going to sell their collections when the prices have bottomed out anyway? Would you rather have a few dollars or the cards you collected? Even if youre an investor,you wouldnt sell low,you would buy low and sell high so i could see investors as well as collectors keeping the t206 market from ever dropping out. You would need the market to get flooded then and with cards that havent been printed in almost 100 years now,thats just not going to happen out of the blue

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03-19-2007, 01:05 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Hey Steve,lets assume the cards are so good that even collectors and experts cant tell the difference, then whos going to know? How would you know theyre actually fake and if they are wouldnt that just affect high grade cards? You can always tell when a new card has been artifically aged so mid and low grade cards wouldnt suffer....and thats assuming that this person making these undetectable cards would settle for lower prices of mid grade cards which they would have absolutely no reason to do when no one can tell the high grade cards are fake

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03-19-2007, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Kevin"Their the ones that detect counterfeiting and protect the hobby against the unscruplous." They are the ones that try their best...and do a good job. As proven, an advanced card doctor can get almost anything by. If it can't get by then I'm sure almost anything can be completly created. BTW...in addition forging the T206 card, throw in a reprinted flip and clean slab too <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. In our hobby just when you think something is not possible you realize anything is possible. Enjoy! Kevin Saucier

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03-19-2007, 01:16 PM

Posted By: Kevin"You can always tell when a new card has been artifically aged" Ah, but can you tell when an old card has been made to look newer then artificially aged? I can't and neither can the best graders in most cases. An example: Nazi forged pounds almost ruined the British economy. Kevin Saucier

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03-19-2007, 01:18 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd The slabs would have to correspond to numbers that actually exist in the companies system so you would have to do that while not tipping off a person who collects high grade cards and would be your number 1 customer,and could possibly have the exact same card youre trying to sell. If someones going to go thru all of that trouble,wouldnt it just be 100 times easier to just steal a scan,run a bunch of auctions all at once for expensive cards and then once they have the money go into hiding. I cant see a criminal taking this much time to get the printing exactly right,actually go thru with the printing,then having slabs made and looking up all the labels to make sure the grades correspond,then running an auction,or mailing it to an auction house and waiting for their money while the whole time hoping that no one else finds out theyre commiting a federal crime.....or they can just steal a scan

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03-19-2007, 01:21 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd In that case Kevin,its still an old card and worth more than the 5 cents a reprint is worth no matter what the condition it was normally in.That isnt a new card on the market and would still affect the high grade guys who care more about the slab number than whats actually in it

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03-19-2007, 01:22 PM

Posted By: peter chaoKevin, In order for counterfeiters to spend time counterfeiting there has to be an economic incentive. If the bottom-dropped out of the T-206 market it will no longer worthwhile for them to counterfeit. Actually counterfeiting isn't that easy to do. Like you said you need to purchase the paper get a printing press together. Furthermore, obviously there is also the threat of criminal prosecution. So when the value of T-206s dropped low enough, people would stop counterfeiting. Peter

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03-19-2007, 01:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, I owe you a call. I do want to speak with you-- sorry. Don't post anymore Kevin--people will think you are serious. Actually, I would venture to say based on what I know about him that Kevin knows more about card restoration than anyone on this board and possibly as much as anyone in the hobby(including the grading companies). And it is very scary--which may explain why I have not called you yet Kevin. Jim

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03-19-2007, 01:37 PM

Posted By: jay behrensYou all say that you will buy up everything and keep collecting, but this just is true. For those of use that have been around long enough, we know it's not true. All you have to do is look at the recession of the early 80s and market in the early 90s. People were bailing out left and right, including supposed "true" collectors. When prices of something valuable start to drop, people panic and start selling to try and get as much value before the market totally bottoms out. What you think you will do and what you actually will do are in all likelyhood, two very different things, as history has proven. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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03-19-2007, 01:38 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJohn, Actually, I had a client that did that to all their creditors. My client was a distributor of computers and computer related equipment and making lots of bucks. They paid me a monthly retainer of $2,000 every month in a timely manner. As a matter of fact they would pay me faster than any of my other clients. One time I happened to run across their banking records and I realized that they had a line of credit that allowed them to purchase over 10 million from various manufacturers. The interesting thing was I also ran across their accounting records and I found out that even though it appeared that they were doing well, in reality they were just breaking even. Well one day they simply purchased over 10 million worth of computers and computer-related products from various manufactuer's and simply packed their bags and left their warehouse headquarters. Of course, they didn't pay their retainer that month and I couldn't locate them. The rumor was they had taken all the computers and computer-related equipment and took off for Latin America. At the time there was a thriving grey market in the U.S. and in Japan for computer products. The grey market is like the black market where employees and others stole computer equipment and chips from their employers and sold the equipment and chips at a discount to buyers. The rumor went further and speculated that my clients had gotten cheap warehouse space in Latin America and was selling the computers and the equipment on the grey market at a discount. Although I was contacted by the FBI about the situation, it was obvious I didn't know anything. It's been years now, and there has been no follow-up by the FBI. Peter

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03-19-2007, 01:52 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Well Jay when people bailed out that means someone was there to buy them because you cant sell stuff if you have no buyers. Those people who bought then would probably realize that they could do the same thing,hold on to the cards and make money in the future.People who are trying to put together a set as collectors will see their chance to finish the set cheap. I dont collect t206s anymore but if someone told me i can get a ton of vg commons for $5 each im jumping all over it,i dont care what you say

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03-19-2007, 01:54 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)This thread of hypotheticals is fun... would I like to see the bottom fall out of the card market, SURE, then I could pick up material reasonably and the material I paid dearly for would be damned but it'd still be mine. High quality counterfeits would probably be detectable through some type of testing. This would only lead to higher prices in having cards slabbed. There'd be two slabs - the first being the cards slabbed before "greater detection" and the cards slabbed with the "greater detection". I think John's right, it's fairly easy to tell if a low-mid grade card has been altered. Those cards would probably be safe. The unfortunate grouping of cards would probably be the high grade cards. Just my opinions. Seriously, like I've always said, I could care less if this cardboard turned out to be worth only a few dollars a pound because I'd pick it up cheap and it would make the hobby that much more enjoyable. I'm in it for the stats, teams and history of the game not to pad my retirement. After I retired selling off a collection would be difficult, it'd be like trying to figure what child you'd like to sell. I'll leave that up to my family after I'm dead and gone. I would hope that they would keep a couple of the cards for my memory, but if they sold them all and decided to buy a bigger big screen TV with the cards, that's their choice.

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03-19-2007, 01:55 PM

Posted By: Jason LI would love it! I am a fan of the game of baseball first I am a baseball card collector second and I am a baseball card "investor" third So, if the market for cards dropped through the floor because the game fell out of favor with the collecting public (which is the only demographic that matters here), then I would be happy as a pig in slop, because there is no reason for the game to stop being MY pasttime, I would still be a collector, and the opportunity would likely turn me into a major "investor." I love collecting the cards, and I enjoy the history they represent. The physical cards would be the same, history wouldn't have changed - just the future value would be in doubt...but with contiually falling prices, that important barrier to entry would be evaporating, hourly, as you say - so, BUY BUY BUY!!! Now, if the market fell apart because of some other macro-factor like a depression, global war, or say, the Cubs winning the Series, well....that's different. One strategy would be to complete all the sets you had your eyes on before the drop...but wouldn't this be fun instead: Focus on one or 2 cards or sets and hoard them so that when the market returns, they cannot be found, except for whaterever price you set!!! How exciting would that be?

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03-19-2007, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldWell I'd keep collecting them if their cost plunged. I didn't commence collecting them with a hope that they'd appreciate in value. Their value isn't all that significant to me. And I figure that for those who think it really is about the money, those folks won't be able to understand my thinking. If printing is easy, and it is the paper that is difficult, then why not buy T58 Fish or T60 Flags, bleach them down to nothing, then print on that??? What about a hotknife that separates slabs... Buy a PSA 7, separate the slab, reload it with a decent looking 5 or even a reprinted card, then seal it back up... Wrong. Criminal. But I think some folks that focus on slabbed cards wouldn't notice... I'd keep acquiring the cards if the price bottomed out. The cards I have aren't held as any sort of an investment, no bid deal if prices dove.

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03-19-2007, 02:16 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJohn, yes, there have to be people there to buy the cards that people are unloading, but odds are that most people on this board won't be the ones doing the buying. True, diehard collectors like you, me and others will suck up everything we can, but most people on this board would be unloading their collections if the market bottomed out. I'd be willing to bet that the first major casualties if the market bottomed out would be the set registry freaks. And yes, there are exceptions. Give me a break on that count. There are exceptions to everything, but most of the people heavily involved in the set registries would be bailing fast. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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03-19-2007, 02:37 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJay, The first to bail will be the investors and the modern day collectors. The people that bought the Derek Jeter error cards, those people probably didn't have any idea of how common the card is. These people will bail first. The deepness of the drop really depends on how big of a segment the spur of the moment buyers and the investors are. Also how big of a market are the serious collectors. Look you may buy one Walter Johnson portrait card, but will you buy a hundred. If the answer is no, then the market will continue to plunge. Peter

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03-19-2007, 02:45 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree with Jay that if the bottom fell out not every vintage card collector would be buying up all the spoils. There would be a really bad vibe in the hobby, and many who saw their collections plummet in value would bail out. In that scenario, if the market were flooded with cards that might still be going down in value, there would be a lot less buying than people think.

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03-19-2007, 02:57 PM

Posted By: GeorgeI would find out who is responsible for making the forgeries, and I would kill him.

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03-19-2007, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Mark LutzDidn't something like a crash take place in the stamp market about 20 years ago? I assume that was caused by a gradual and general loss of interest in the stamp hobby. From what I can tell, there are still stamp collectors out there even if you don't see stamp shows at the local mall anymore. But I understand that very rare stamps still fetch big prices in some auctions. So I would expect a baseball card crash (due to loss of interest) might wash out the majority of collectors but would still leave us with a bunch of people who would compete for a Cobb/ Cobb or a Baltimore News Ruth. Now, if Kevin's scenario unfolds and every card is readily available, then I don't think the baseball card hobby would last very long. It would be as dull as a paradise in which everything is available to everyone all the time. A few people would finish some sets and everyone would eventually move on to something else.

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03-19-2007, 03:08 PM

Posted By: JohnKevin, I have to ask, it seems like almost all of your posts are geared around some sort of conspiracy/forgery thing why? Do you have some secret knowledge of this, if so why can’t you bring this issue to light? Are you the guy printing them? Will the people who are printing them hunt you and your family down if their operation was made public? I just don’t get it? I mean I understand what your saying, but this applies to most anything. Forgery has been an ugly part of many hobbies, art, manuscripts, currency, memorabilia etc. I know its possible to be done, but unless you or I know who’s doing it and plan to stop them, it all chalks up to another conspiracy theory. Also each time you post and drop these hints I cant help but wonder if the reason you are tad nebulous in your posts is that you have been, or are currently doing this right now?? Perhaps you’re trying to help and that’s cool, but it’s coming across a bit shady the way you’re going about it. Maybe I’m the only one who feels this way? If so my apologies…

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03-19-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Mark LOne thing is clear: If Kevin were selling forgeries he wouldn't write about forgery.

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03-19-2007, 03:23 PM

Posted By: Kevin"people will think you are serious" Jim, I can assume you've been talking with one of our mutual friends lately <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. If I were serious I would have never posted. My only objective is to make collectors aware that anything is possible and to watch and examine your cards and slabs carefully. I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby. Other posts showing card alterations have been spread out over several different threads. This one camera shot should sum it all up and relieve all doubt that the previous pics were not digitally created (maybe that YouTube post of the guys laughing could be deleted now LOL). Independently alteration A, B or C would be concerning. Put them all together and...well...yikes: <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/blanks.jpg"> <“If printing is easy, and it is the paper that is difficult, then why not buy T58 Fish or T60 Flags, bleach them down to nothing, then print on that??? What about a hotknife that separates slabs”> The cuts and cardstock for each series of cards is slightly different. Above are a few 206's and (if remember) 205's. Hard to tell without inspecting them again, each are completely blank...front and back. I can also show more modern blanks if wanted and/or put a blank in a slab with a blank flip all assembled. Bringing the stock down to nothing would be sloppy work IMO and be very obvious. I dunno but I think a hotknife would more than likely melt the plastic...just a thought. Besides resealing without a slab machine is very tricky. Enjoy! Kevin Saucier edited - a few spelling errors.

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03-19-2007, 03:26 PM

Posted By: DylanWhen talking about counterfeiting remember too that people who counterfeit money are hoping someone just glances at it and takes it. People examine high value cards with loops and experts grade them. This is a whole different scenerio.

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03-19-2007, 03:47 PM

Posted By: Kevin<"Perhaps you’re trying to help and that’s cool, but it’s coming across a bit shady the way you’re going about it."> Just trying to help, that's it! With that in mind...how many here now would think twice before buying an expensive error card or printing flaw? Yes, I can see where it would seem shady but then again this is all new to most, so it would seem shady. I'm still waiting for that post stating "So what, you show the stuff but your not telling us how it's done." No how-to questions please. <"One thing is clear: If Kevin were selling forgeries he wouldn't write about forgery."> Bingo! <"People examine high value cards with loops and experts grade them. This is a whole different scenerio."> No difference really, I think we put too much faith in the experts. IMO only a select few are truly experts...and even they should to be trained and updated. Just like the the way Tom Hanks still goes to acting school <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Kevin Saucier

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03-19-2007, 03:58 PM

Posted By: JohnKevin, Empty slabs don’t concern me, neither do blank slips, I buy cards not holders. You don’t even have to get fancy with hot knives etc, just ask WIWAG…. I have also been collecting for sometime I know a fair amount about the cards I collect and what to look for. Could I be fooled, sure we all could given the right fake and level of the counterfeit in question. If you want to make collectors aware, perhaps author and E-book detailing the things to look for, show some of the basic tell tale signs of doctored cards, just a thought. This doesn’t have to be a how to guide to doctoring cards, just a how to spot armature work etc. If you can’t do this and all you can show are the above pics, you’ve really added nothing more than the baseball card equivalent of the “Grassy Knoll” IMO. If I’m being totally honest with you Kevin, photos of cracked slabs don’t upset or concern me, its statements like the one below that do give me reason for concern. Not questioning your integrity Kevin, just being honest. “I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby.”

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03-19-2007, 04:07 PM

Posted By: JohnTo answer your question Peter, let the bottom drop out. I was collecting these long before I knew of any financial gain, and I will collect long after the so-called bottom fell out of them. I remember the days you could count on one hand the cards that could pull 5 figures; LOL and if you had more than 2 cards in your collection worth more than 4 figures you were a collecting god. In fact if it did, we wouldn’t be having half of the discussions we have on here if it were more about cards, and less about money.

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03-19-2007, 04:10 PM

Posted By: Kevin<"If you want to make collectors aware, perhaps author and E-book detailing the things to look for, show some of the basic tell tale signs of doctored cards, just a thought. This doesn’t have to be a how to guide to doctoring cards, just a how to spot armature work etc."> The book is about 3/4 completed...although not an e-book <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. IMO to write a book one must first establish trust, knowledge and respect amongst peers and experts. This was a start: <a href="http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=226&set_name=1991%20Topps%20Desert%20Shield" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=226&set_name=1991%20Topps%20Desert%20Shield</a>

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03-19-2007, 04:16 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf the bottom fell out of the market- and I don't think that will happen- somebody will of course be buying baseball cards because they will all still have some determined value. But the pool of buyers will be a lot smaller. Regarding the drop in the stamp hobby, I was not active twenty years ago; but one main difference in stamp collecting is it is not drawing in a new generation of collectors, and the older ones are leaving us. There are enough serious collectors today though that will pay a big premium for high quality rare issues. The more plentiful ones, however, can be had for a song.

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03-19-2007, 04:42 PM

Posted By: Bill"One thing is clear: If Kevin were selling forgeries he wouldn't write about forgery" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not true. Not talking about you in particular Kevin, just speaking in generalities. Criminals are caught for one main reason, they talk about the crime they've taken part in. It's in a criminal mindset, they talk about what they've done or plan on doing. One outrageous example, Ted Bundy once wrote a pamphlet for women on precautions to take in order to avoid being in a situation where they may be sexually assaulted. There is a long laundry list of people who talk about what they do. It's a common thing done that the perpetrator thinks draws attention away from him/her, when in actuality does the opposite. Again, not accusing you of anything Kevin, just speaking in generalities. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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03-19-2007, 04:50 PM

Posted By: BrettSo many people just buy pre war cards and sell them just to make a buck, so I doubt very many people would buy them if t206 Cobbs were worth $10 in poor shape and commons worth $1. I just buy cards of players I like, or of cards that I like from certain sets. The value of them doesn't matter because I hardly ever sell any cards.

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03-19-2007, 04:57 PM

Posted By: Mark LBill, I think that forgers are a special breed and that they are very unlikely to call attention to a crime the very existence of which they wish to conceal. I agree, however, that Kevin is not comparable to Ted Bundy. The picture I'm getting of him is more like that of Dr. Moreau.

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03-19-2007, 05:07 PM

Posted By: Joann1. If the bottom dropped out on vintage cards I'd buy like hell (assuming the bottom didn't drop out on everything else along with vintage cards, and I could still afford it). I would have all 4 T206 Cobbs, along with portraits of Johnson, Matty and Cy. I may never be able to afford those now, and would love to see and own them. I'd grab an E95 Cobb that right now is still out of reach, along with a T227. I really think I'd still be buying - I love the way these cards look, and don't think value plays that big a role in the fundamental decision to collect - although it may have a part in each indivdual card buying decision. 2. If the bottom dropped out because the market was flooded with undetectable counterfeits I would stop buying the sets affected. One of the things I like about vintage cards is the very idea that they are so old. If I didn't know they were old, they would lose a lot of appeal to me. 3. Sorry Kevin - I'm with John Wonkaticket on this one. I don't doubt you are very knowledgable, and I take Jim C's endorsement of your expertise seriously. However, to be honest it's just really hard for me to get all worried about very vague warnings and indefinite descriptions of a vintage doomsday. Maybe because the posts are so vague, they tend to fade into the noise of all of the other theories of the unsound footing of vintage cards (eg - XXX% of all cards in PSA Y holders are trimmed). That sort of thing. At some point you just tune it out, unless it's something like Ryan Christoff's posts about the Cuban Polar cards. In that case, there was enough clear detail, along with Mike's somewhat contrary findings when he had his physically analyzed, for collectors to make informed decisions. Just my opinion. Joann

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03-19-2007, 05:10 PM

Posted By: BillWell, being somebody who has partaken in the field, this type of behavior is not limited to certain types of crimes. And Ted Bundy was just an easy example for me to use as many people know his story. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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03-19-2007, 05:12 PM

Posted By: john/z28jd Barry I still think the players on the card is what makes them valuable because they have teams theyre associated with and records of what they did.You cant compare stamps to that because their value is based on condition and rarity as opposed to the player. Otherwise every t206 card would be valued the same as long as they were just as easy to find.It would make Cobbs the same price as Bill Bergen.The ones that stand out would be cards like Demmitt and O'Hara who are relative nobodies but hard to find,they can be associated with rare stamps and probably retain a good deal of their value despite the drop. Im actually hoping for a huge drop in the Old Judge market, I might lose value in what i have already but ill be adding cards as fast as i make money when it does happen.If someone asked me if id rather have 200 OJ common cards worth $20,000 or 1000 of them in the same shape worth $10,000 id be making room for 800 more cards

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03-19-2007, 05:16 PM

Posted By: Johnposted twice, odd.

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03-19-2007, 05:23 PM

Posted By: Max WederSomeone must be forging your posts wonka <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-19-2007, 05:31 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin--they don't get it-- Of course I know you are legit. What was the quote by one of our mutual friends--if people knew what you know and it got in the wrong hands it could bring down the hobby as we know it today--something like that. What is funny to me is when collectors on this board lecture others to know their cards and they "know" when cards have been altered or not. As Kevin could tell you, the best doctors can fool the best graders--certainly Kevin could--but he has not gone over to the dark side. Kevin will say this I know --as he has said it to me-- but PSA and SGC need to hire a card doctor to show graders what they are doing to the cards.

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03-19-2007, 05:31 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- while I do believe you understand the extent of forgeries and the type of restoration being done, I've got to go with the crowd and say that that is the only thing you ever talk about. You have never offered one positive thing about the hobby, but just kind of wait for your opportunity to fill us all with gloom and doom. Perhaps some more balanced posting would add some credibility to what you have to say.

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03-19-2007, 05:46 PM

Posted By: DarrenI also collect rocks, insects, and leaves.

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03-19-2007, 05:48 PM

Posted By: John“Kevin--they don't get it—“ Not sure what I’m suppose to get? Kevin really hasn’t posted anything other than nebulous posts, eluding to some mysterious stuff going on. What am I supposed to draw from these kinds of posts Jim??? People post all over the Internet that we are visited by aliens every day Jim, without proof of some sort I’m not going to start looking for little green men… “What was the quote by one of our mutual friends--if people knew what you know and it got in the wrong hands it could bring down the hobby as we know it today--something like that.” Enough with the secret squirrel crap already, do you have something to add to better the hobby/protect us or not? The question applies to both of you? If you don’t then all you have is conspiracy theory’s.. Who really killed JFK? Did Hitler live after the war? Alien Autopsy’s in Roswell NM? And now….. The ”Of course I know you are legit.” Theory…yawn.

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03-19-2007, 05:54 PM

Posted By: Max WederWonka How can you dispute the alien theory and Roswell, New Mexico? Here is proof....one of 74 home runs --- without steroids! <img src="http://www.baseballreliquary.org/images/Bauman.jpg"> m

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03-19-2007, 05:58 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI can't be fooled by a forgery. Or a trim job. And I too am legit - in fact, too legit to quit collecting high grade vintage cards. But I am scared. Very scared. Hold me.

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03-19-2007, 06:04 PM

Posted By: John<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/bauman2.jpg"> Not sure I’m convinced Max, look closely at the photo under hi-res analysis it seems to be a little green man there, and his hands seem to be calling the shot to boot! Explain that, this whole thing may go deeper than we thought!!

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03-19-2007, 06:23 PM

Posted By: Max WederJohn I think you're seeing things.... <img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/425980248_79154f08e1_o.jpg">

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03-19-2007, 06:37 PM

Posted By: Kevin"Enough with the secret squirrel crap already, do you have something to add to better the hobby/protect us or not? The question applies to both of you? If you don’t then all you have is conspiracy theory’s.." Aggressive and somewhat insulting, yet not surprising at all. Matter of fact it was expected...what took you? Would it be preferred that these subjects be avoided? Your answer in the form of a question; Would you now, knowing what you've seen, buy a ghost, blank back or other error card without at least considering the possibility it might be altered? It's not all doom and gloom. It's more like "be careful" and "watch out" because the area of alterations is not just about cards being trimmed and recolored. Kevin Saucier

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03-19-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanKevin, no one was insulting you. The board just expects some specificity instead of innuendo. That's not asking a lot.

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03-19-2007, 06:52 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- I'm sure it is possible for many altered cards to go undetected, but you make it seem like nearly every card out there is tampered with. Collectors might as well just throw in the towel. Frankly, I don't think it's true. Do you see anything good in the hobby? And please don't say I don't want to face the truth, or something to that effect. That is not a defense of an argument.

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03-19-2007, 06:57 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, You are right--it is to be expected. Thats the kind of treatment you get here by some. If you have serious topics concerning restoration you are better off just talking about them on LTS although as a members only board you don't get the wider audience.

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03-19-2007, 07:04 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSome people are just ahead of their time and simply cannot be understood by mere mortals. I think Brian Wilson wrote about it on Pet Sounds, "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times." Dan? Oh Dan?

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03-19-2007, 07:10 PM

Posted By: JoannActually, if Kevin has serious topics regarding restoration he will get a great reception if he posts them here, not on some members-only board. He has shown some interesting before-n-after scans, but really has only accompanied them with generic warnings. I'd love to see this kind of post with a step by step explanation of what was done (not in detail as to turn it into a tutorial on card doctoring). I'd also really like to hear him ring in on some of these misprints that show up on ebay or even here, and let people know if he thinks they are natural misprints or doctored, and why. Right now all we really have is some interesting scans accompanied by "now do you dare buy?" kinds of commentary. By all means post serious restoration topics here. Joann

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03-19-2007, 07:17 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJoann, From everything I know, he is as knowledgeable as anyone about restoration and perhaps even more so. Kevin, if you are still paying attention that is what happens on Net54. You bring up a serious topic--get ridiculed--and then someone calls on u-tube and posters talk about music. At least you said you were not surprised by it so you were warned over the treatment you would get here. I do plan on calling you-- Jim

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03-19-2007, 07:19 PM

Posted By: JoannI don't have the slightest doubt about his knowledge. Not one bit. I'm just wishing he would share it in a slightly different, maybe more targeted, way. Joann

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03-19-2007, 07:26 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJoann, Par for the course--a real expert has something highly value added to say--despite being "warned" that this would happen, he feels insulted by the ridiculous comments of a couple of posters.

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03-19-2007, 07:29 PM

Posted By: Jason LI'm starting to hope for a meltdown of confidence, a massive Ebay failure, and the collapse of one or two grading companies. Maybe collectors will be forced to meet at more frequent shows... Look, the only reason this crappy topic keeps coming up is because collectors who can afford to keep paying up for the rare, high-end stuff are becoming increasingly paranoid about the integrity of their product. As long as the prices stay high, the incentive to forge product is there, and the paranoia is justified. Learn your product better than anyone, stick with your tight trusted circles, and then stop worrying so much. The doomsday what-ifs have become absolutely intolerable. You people are going to kill yourselves with worry at this rate. Peter, if the market falls, the people who care about the value will sell out and walk away...that's really all there is to it

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03-19-2007, 07:34 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJason, bingo! Fear is quite the motivator. Somehow I suspect Kevin has thicker skin than perhaps some of the more delicate people who post on the board. I mean it would be almost physiologically impossibble for him not to have thicker skin.

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03-19-2007, 07:34 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- Kevin is not being ridiculed by anybody. Some are asking him for more specific information, some are questioning why he continues to post the same thing every time, and I have asked him if he sees positive things in the hobby, too. If you feel he is correct that such a large percentage of cards are altered, then you must feel this impacts your own collection.

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03-19-2007, 08:08 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI love it ---learn your product--ha ha--I suspect Kevin could put 10ncards in front of most of you--5 altered, 5 okay and most would have a 50/50 chance of guessing whether it had been altered. Sorry Barry--those of you who try to pin this on the high end collector protecting his investment are overlooking the substantial alteration of mid grade pre war cards. Seriously Barry--you have a lot of mid grade graded cards in your auction--how many do you thing have been altered?

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03-19-2007, 08:34 PM

Posted By: dennis "I suspect Kevin could put 10ncards in front of most of you--5 altered, 5 okay and most would have a 50/50 chance of guessing whether it had been altered." jim would the 10 altered cards be in slabs? it's hard to see when their in the plastic.

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03-19-2007, 08:50 PM

Posted By: JohnAggressive Kevin, perhaps no more aggressive/ dangerous than this comment. Are you bragging to us, or warning us??? “I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby.” Do you have first hand knowledge of the stuff you post about above Kevin or don’t you? Not aggressive just a simple question and if you do and don’t want to share it with us, why post at all?? Seems pointless, to point out things we cant protect ourselves from since the people who have this all-powerful knowledge can and I quote… “They are the ones that try their best...and do a good job. As proven, an advanced card doctor can get almost anything by. If it can't get by then I'm sure almost anything can be completly created. “ “Ah, but can you tell when an old card has been made to look newer then artificially aged? I can't and neither can the best graders in most cases.” “Would it be preferred that these subjects be avoided?” No it would be preferred that you actually tell something useful vs. countless innuendo and vague speculation. Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs. You’ve admitted you’re a card doctor with vast amounts of knowledge and your buddy Jim has eluded that you could use this to you advantage. "What was the quote by one of our mutual friends--if people knew what you know and it got in the wrong hands it could bring down the hobby as we know it today--something like that." You even admit you doctor cards and that these cards will never see the hobby or some unsuspecting schumck’s collection, I am to believe this how?? If you’re trying to build creditability to help the hobby, and you have knowledge, which could do so. That’s very admirable, not sure the way you presented yourself so far has helped your cause if in fact that’s your cause at all? "Aggressive and somewhat insulting, yet not surprising at all. Matter of fact it was expected...what took you?" And please the martyr schiidct is a bit played out at this time be careful most of the time there is only enough room on a cross for one, not sure Crandell has room for you up there at this time. So how about it? Are there any artists in the house? I would like to commission the 12 stages of Crandell’s suffering via Net 54 mural at this time, please let me know.

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03-19-2007, 09:15 PM

Posted By: Frank A.Kevin's 2005 SMR article about 1991 Desert Shield forgeries is quite impressive. It would be even more impressive if all of the info had not already been published a decade earlier in Beckett. What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously.

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03-19-2007, 09:16 PM

Posted By: John“Sorry Barry--those of you who try to pin this on the high end collector protecting his investment are overlooking the substantial alteration of mid grade pre war cards. Seriously Barry--you have a lot of mid grade graded cards in your auction--how many do you thing have been altered?” Jim, are you implying Barry has altered cards at auction right now?? Sounds like a hint. Any proof of this or is this? Or is this another Crandell red herring?? But seriously I love you Crandell, nobody makes me laugh harder. Even Grigori Efimovich Rasputin didn’t take himself as seriously as you take yourself. And Jim relax Rasputin is a historical figure and is long been dead; he didn’t trim any of your cards or my entire armpit collector mid grade ones either…or did he……..

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03-19-2007, 09:22 PM

Posted By: Adam Smith"What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously." Right on both accounts. Kevin has not shown us a thing. Everyone wants to be a big shot.

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03-19-2007, 09:53 PM

Posted By: cmokingJohn, you wrote: "Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs." Have you read the other threads that Kevin posted in? I've met and talked to Kevin several times in person, and he has shown me some issues with cards that have been eye-popping. Its tough for me to separate what he told me versus what he wrote on N54, but if I recall correctly, he did post some other stuff in other threads that you and others may find interest in. Maybe those other posts aren't enough for you either...I'm just saying your statement "so far you've posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs" is not true for his N54 posts as a whole.

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03-19-2007, 10:09 PM

Posted By: Jeff Prizner"What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously." Not true, Kevin knows alterations. Like King said, check out some of the other posts. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172121989/last-1172686539/Ghost+cards" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172121989/last-1172686539/Ghost+cards</a> <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172653652/last-1172686539/even+more" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172653652/last-1172686539/even+more</a>...

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03-19-2007, 10:30 PM

Posted By: JohnCmoking if your going to quote me please quote me correctly please… “Kevin, not out to get you but so far you’ve posted some blank case slips and opened PSA slabs. You’ve admitted you’re a card doctor with vast amounts of knowledge and your buddy Jim has eluded that you could use this to you advantage.” I stand by that quote; I also saw the other posts with pictured cards with various jobs etc. Perhaps I’m wrong but Kevin never really goes into to detail on any of the posts I have read, if anything he posts and leaves it open to speculation. What’s the point of it all? To make us all paranoid or educate us?? I’m not questioning his ability as card doctor or knowing methods of card alteration. I’m merely questioning the point of all this brining things half to light with broad statements and images. Is this going somewhere or not? If you cant tell us what to look for and we cant tell for ourselves due to the quality of your work and others as stated below by Kevin himself, then what the hell is the point and where is he heading with this? I think those are fair questions??? “They are the ones that try their best...and do a good job. As proven, an advanced card doctor can get almost anything by. If it can't get by then I'm sure almost anything can be completely created. “ “Ah, but can you tell when an old card has been made to look newer then artificially aged? I can't and neither can the best graders in most cases.” Right now Kevin is not coming off as an educated hobby defender but more like a guy on a street corner with a billboard that says “The End is near!!” Also the only scary thing so far that Kevin has brought to light are comments he’s made about his own skill, openly admitting he’s a card doctor who could fool us all. I’m the only one who finds that odd, that someone would brag so openly about this??? “I am a collector and card doctor...albeit an honest one. All my work is either with me or in "very trusted hands" and will not enter the hobby.” “If I was unleashing fraud (knew someone to say it...thank you), I wouldn't post about it and am quite sure no one would ever know. Enjoy your card as it is, a mystery to all!”

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03-19-2007, 10:46 PM

Posted By: cmokingI don't think I made a mistake. I quoted the relevant portion.

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03-19-2007, 11:08 PM

Posted By: George Dreher My wife said there was a mental patient that had a booger collection on their wall and it wasn't framed.

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03-20-2007, 12:50 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Kevin- I'm sure it is possible for many altered cards to go undetected, but you make it seem like nearly every card out there is tampered with. Collectors might as well just throw in the towel. Frankly, I don't think it's true." _____________ I am a collector first and deep commitment the hobby. Most cards are not altered and reside in the correct holders if graded. Based on experience I estimate about 15% in slabs have been altered. Don't throw in the towel but do have a general idea what your getting for your buck. The end is not near but the subject is as important as any other. Many have a specific specialty; mine just happens to be identifying alterations and is what I can offer the hobby and (maybe) this forum. Before and after pics are appropriate for the alterations I've been showing. Details and more targeted step by step explanations could only hurt the hobby in an open forum...sorry. Not bragging at all, "awareness" is what I am offering at this time. As for Jim, I've only met him briefly once. Sure, we will talk soon in detail but at least his comments on this subject are accepted for what they are. Not saying I'm a card doctor regardless of the reason, would be hypocritical, it's the unfortunate part of getting to know the subject at hand. It would be like WonkaTicket stating he's is not confrontational <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. ____________ "Kevin's 2005 SMR article about 1991 Desert Shield forgeries is quite impressive. It would be even more impressive if all of the info had not already been published a decade earlier in Beckett. What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously." Frank Alston, that entire post was simply uncalled for. I'm embarrassed for you and feel it's a shame you find the need to express those horrid comments in writing. Adam Smith you are not far behind. I'm no big shot and don't plan on being one. Both of you are obviously the bigger men...literally. That SMR article was a request by PSA to go beyond what had been written in Beckett and reintroduce the subject to new collectors. Both are different. Dare I say I've written several others? Please show us what either of you have written so that we may all enjoy the benefits of your educational topics. I'm certain we will not be disappointed. ___________ "I'd also really like to hear him ring in on some of these misprints that show up on ebay or even here, and let people know if he thinks they are natural misprints or doctored, and why." This is exactly what I can do and would be more than happy to share what little I know. In person, I can go into more detail. Poor King (cmoking) once got a 2-hour class on card trimming. Have a good evening! Kevin Saucier

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03-20-2007, 01:49 AM

Posted By: JohnKevin, My apologies, I’m really not trying to be confrontational at all. Its just it seems every week for the past months we have been presented with lots of speculation and innuendo about the hobby being destroyed, trimmed altered etc. Were all a bit tired of the constant conspiracy theory stuff, or at least I am. While most of this stuff is all news worthy, most of it if not all of the things that are brought to light are done so in a very cloak and dagger manner with very little fact or proof behind them. This makes it hard to believe or do anything about it. Also certain individuals have made it their personal soapbox agenda, which further ruined any good intentions behind the cause of cleaning up our beloved hobby. I understand all to well the fact it wouldn’t be prudent to go into step by step detail on altered cards and how there done. I also appreciate your inputs on bad cards being highlighted by yourself. But unless your superman, you cant be with all of us all the time. How then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of? What things should we be on the lookout for? What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards? Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards? Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies? These are just some of the things others and I are asking for your input on. If you can’t give us guidance on some of the above, and all we can talk about are broad statements and photos, all you have succeeded in doing is making collectors paranoid. Just one collector’s opinion. Balls in your court Kevin.....

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03-20-2007, 05:11 AM

Posted By: barrysloateHi Jim- I wasn't dodging your question, I just shut off the computer early at night. How many mid-grade cards do I have in my auction that are altered? While I can't say with absolute certainty, if I had to guess I would say zero. There is nothing special about them to suggest any have been tampered with. They have some corner rounding, some light creasing, a few nicks here and there...they are what they are. If someone altered them, I'll tell you one thing- they are no better off now than they were before!

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03-20-2007, 05:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellFunny. Some think I am a buffoon and Kevin is a clown that plays with bleach Ha ha. Its amazing how much in the dark ages some are on this board. If some of you would take any time to learn you would see that Kevin is an expert and know ns more than most of you combined. If he chooses to share his wisdom here you are lucky.

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03-20-2007, 05:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWe agree that Kevin is knowledgeable and does have much he can teach us. But I think the problem we all have is that he is approaching this as a doomsday scenario. According to Kevin, no collector should trust anything he or she sees, that every card in the hobby is potentially tampered with. If that is the case, I suggest everyone stop collecting baseball cards and take up a new hobby, such as collecting balls of string, or playing shuffleboard. Those seem like safer venues to me.

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03-20-2007, 05:56 AM

Posted By: BillI think this would be, and could be, a great topic to be discussed on this board. As Kevin stated, going into extreme detail could potentially be harmful as there are always a small few who could use the information for the wrong reasons, understood. However, Kevin coming forth and stating that he would be more than willing to share at least some information is something that I know I, as well as others I am sure, would greatly appreciate. For that, I thank you Kevin. As far as Jim goes, I really don't understand why you post on the board at all. I come on the board to read threads and learn more about the vintage world, quite a few post great information and knowledge. There are others, however, who seem to be the ones who ruin this board for everybody else. I do not see you posting much on this board. However, the threads I have read, and the posts you make, come off as highly juvenile. Your posts portray yourself as an arrogant person, intent on belittling everyone on here. If you have such a problem with people on this board, why do you bother to come here at all and ruin it for others who like to share their knowledge or are trying to learn about vintage cards? Maybe this is not your intent and you do not believe that you come across this way. However, this is exactly how it sounds. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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03-20-2007, 06:07 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSorry Bill--I don't know you but feel free to attack me--it makes you one of the boys here...and I like it. Barry--exactly--anything(lets just say most things) can be altered--if Kevin for fun can get cards past the graders I think anything is suspect.

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03-20-2007, 06:09 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezPeter's thoughts about an investors crash in the T206 market. Hmmn, as much as I'm not for it, it does have some merit. All the investors in denial will panic, and seek financial safety elsewhere. If the investors decide to part with whatever is left of their dwindling portfolios, I'm sure that the collectors will extend a hand, and show an out pouring of their warm hearts. We'll even purchase the plane tickets for our brothers and sisterS of the Collectors Investors in Denial. Then, you will see a celebration that will dwarf the celebration called El Cinco de Mayo, to "Putting the (H) back in the Baseball Card Hobby. It's a win/win situation for everybody. The marketeers can go back to reading their Wall Street Journal. The collectors can go back to talking about baseball cards in whatever collector condition. All kidding aside,we love you poor misguided folks. If you can handle the crash? Stick around, and we'll teach you how to enjoy, and have some real fun with the cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Double Hmmn. Peter, or is that Frank? .. comes out of the closet. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> In another thread, I was discussing the mindset difference between the sicko collector and the investor in denial. Peter claimed to be both, an investor and a collector, I thought otherwise. Today in this soul searching thread, he comes out. "Well if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both." Peter OK Peter, Now look at the audience and say: "I am not smarter than a fifth grader" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ------------------------- Jim C. two things: (1). ... "Kevin, I owe you a call. I do want to speak with you-- sorry. Don't post anymore Kevin--people will think you are serious." * * Jimbo, if I didn't know any better, I would have funny thoughts about the above. (2). ... Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy have been away for many years. Stop trying to lip sync Kevins words. He can handle, and speak very well for himself. -------------------------- "Only enough room on a cross for one" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I Luv that line. John W, Those are good questions for Kevin, and I do believe he wants to help. I don't know Kevin, but he sounds like he knows his area. I'm just a collector also, but when you lay down a lot of bread for some cardboard, and then you find out that it might not be kosher. ... you'd be surprised how intense your drive and determination to learn all about that card is. I studied it, and I had what almost looked like a war room. I just didn't study the card, I connected all the dots, and crossed all the T's. I went to Danny Dupcek store "Fantasia" several times in up State, NY. A comic and baseball cards store with autograph T206'S in his display case. Connected names to other deals with him. Talked to the District Attorney inhis area. Discovered a network connected to Flint MI, that included a dealer and some people interested in the altering scheme. This was in 1990, between Memorial Day & Labor Day. Without seeing the card, Lew Lipset was the one that gave me the clue that it might not be good. He had heard about it from a major collector that also fell for it. I went to the Parsippany NJ show, and happen to mention it to Mastro, he recommended Herman Kaufman to represent me, I couldn't have asked for better, we became strong friends. Got in touch with Bob Lemke, I told him the story, and he was extremely helpful. It was a delicate situation for him, because Fantasia was also an advertiser in SCD. Got in touch with Larry Fritsch, because he owns two Doyles and I knew that he would have an interest in Doctor Koos work. John Tish, a dealer and friend from the Onionta and Cooperstown area was involved, and Mark Macrae from the west coast came on board. All the while I'm studing my real Slow Joe Doyle, the two un kosher ones from Dr. Koos, common Doyle's NY and every T206 Nat'l that I could look at. I was looking at the type fonts, ink colors and the constant of the T206. I got my money back, but the kicker was the national in Texas. We found a dealer from mile high that got a Magie from a dealer from Flint MI. Mile high took a long time in believing us, and never even thanked us when he got his money back. Flint MI. was expecting more booty being brought in by his son from Flint MI. The dealers that I know are nice people. Instead of looking for cards for my collection, I spent most of the time talking to dealers, telling them about the Koos work and trying to point out what to look for. I kept a couple of pointers to myself for a good reason. I knew the story was going to be getting out. I saw no sense in letting the Dr. know what to cure. The sad part about this is, I was hoping that the dealer at the show would pick up the banner and slam Dr. Koos, but that wasn't the case. As a collector, I won my fight. Except for LEW LIPSET - MARK MACRAE - HERMAN KAUFMAN - JOHN TISH - FRITSCH and LEMKE, the others let Danny Dupcek escape, and come back to haunt them and the collectors later. I'm not an expert, but never mess with a person from Spanish Harlem. ... he can become a blood hound in seconds flat John W. ... stay well. Kevin S. ... welcome on board ... front and center, and let's get the bastards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Joe P.

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03-20-2007, 06:16 AM

Posted By: BillMany people here have no idea who I am because, as I stated, I come on here to read threads and learn more about this great hobby. If you feel my post was an attack, my apologies. As I said at the end, maybe you don't intentionally come across a certain way, however that is how it comes across. In any event, you still did not mention why you come to the board if you have such a problem with everybody here. Oh well, to each his own. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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03-20-2007, 06:35 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJoe--"lets get the bastards"--my sentiments exactly. Bill--why? To expose all of the card alteration/restoration that is being done and get the hobby to rise up and say "we are not going to take it anymore" except for a few committed souls here, there has been a collective yawn. Have not given up--just pushing it through other venues. Interesting that perhaps the number one expert in restoration comes on here and is called a buffoon or a clown or whatever--all I am saying is that is the treatment you get here when you bare trying to expose a major problem.

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03-20-2007, 07:23 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- could you please share with us the names of the people who called Kevin a buffoon or a clown? I don't know where this is coming from.

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03-20-2007, 07:38 AM

Posted By: leonWhy is it always "Net54's" fault? What did this web hosting company ever do to anyone? Answer- nothing !! I get so sick and tired of hearing this crap...and the crap about nothing is ever any good on this board anymore and no one posts anymore. If you said anything like this then you are obviously in the river in Egypt, called "De-Nile"...We currently have the most, and best, board members I have EVER seen, INCLUDING the FullCount days. I thank everyone for that...including the folks that talk smack about this board...I appreciate hearing criticisms...It's part of anything we do.....I think Kevin has enlightened us quite a bit, Jim C is obviously worried about his cards, and most of the rest of us don't care. I do care about altering and bad things in the hobby but like to talk about the good stuff even more. It's just a few thoughts I figured I would throw in...Getting back to topic if the bottom fell out of the market I would be both disappointed and happy. I would definitely still be a collector.....more than ever.

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03-20-2007, 07:38 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I would be happy to--always fun to watch Net54 people eat their words. Frank A.--"only a buffoon like Crandell would take this Saucier clown seriously" Frank A.--"hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a bigger game" Adam Smith--"right on both counts" I suspect that is all we will here from these two jokers--ha ha.

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03-20-2007, 07:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, Can see I did not convince you of my motives--I am trying to do something good for the hobby--expose and get rid of card alteration which affects ALL collectors. Why else would I continue to publicize something that can only hurt the value of my collection. Cheers. Jim

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03-20-2007, 07:54 AM

Posted By: leonSorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you. You are more than welcome to your views and to continually express them.....You have continually stated you don't come onto this board to make friends, which I do, and does disappoint me a little. To each their own though. Also, for the record, how many times have I asked you to stop posting what you think? (answer should be 0)........I would like to see you post something, sometime, about what the rest of the board is interested in too. I am not trying to be hateful but you are somewhat of a 1 pony show, and it does get a little old....again, no disrespect meant....regards

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03-20-2007, 08:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, I drove the highest post counts in the history of the board--or at least since I have been looking at it--anything I post about draws a lot of responses. People weren't interested in my Mastro thread??? I believe that drove a record number of responses. If you want to have people post about what other people care about pick those with 5 or less responses--there are a ton of those this year--don't believe I have had any though. I am sure there are some regular offenders who post about those pesky obscure sets. Also do not believe I have continually said I am not on the board to make friends--probably once--what I am interested in is discussing serious hobby issues--and there is none more pressing than the restoration of cards. Do not disagree that the majority of the board has little interest in serious issues though--although I do think you are sincere when you say that you do. Best regards, Jim

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03-20-2007, 10:18 AM

Posted By: cmokingLeon wrote: "Sorry, but I just don't believe that if you collected the pr-ex cards that most of this board collects, you would be as interested. I am not and most others aren't. " I wonder why collectors of poor to EX cards don't seem to care. Would these collectors care if someone cracked a SGC Authentic holder with a trimmed card only to send it in and have it come back as SGC 40? This just happened to me. It's probably a $200 card in SGC 40, but a $50 card in SGC Authentic. Would you care about your the extra $150 if you were buying that card? I know I would. (don't worry, it won't be going into the marketplace). Would VG-EX collectors care that two PSA 4 T206 cards were previously in SGC Authentic holders and are most likely trimmed (i.e., SGC got it right, PSA got it wrong)? If these collectors don't care, then maybe they won't care whether I list them with full disclosure or no disclosure. I'm guessing they'd rather have the full disclosure.

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03-20-2007, 10:29 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, In an abrupt downturn it is actually the first to sell that are in the best position. They may have sold at a profit and have nothing to lose. As the market continues it's drop, they can take their sweet time in deciding whether they want to buy back in. Others sweat. Peter

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03-20-2007, 10:31 AM

Posted By: leonPlease don't take my response out of context concerning caring about alterations of lower grade cards....I believe you left out the next part of my quote.... "Don't get me wrong, I do think it's important....just not as much as you." thanks leon

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03-20-2007, 10:36 AM

Posted By: JohnKing, what can you do? You make good points, but you and I know it’s the game now. Dealers submit trimmed cards over and over hoping to find a weak link in the system, sometimes it works and these cards end up in a holder. I’ve heard first hand stories from dealers themselves that have heated discussions/favors pulled from grading companies to get a certain card in a holder. Its going to happen, and will continue to happen. Once thing that amazes me is the on site grading, as long as companies allow themselves to be in close proximity of the submitter there just seems too be to much a chance for bias/influence. They will swear up and down it doesn’t go on, but I have to wonder. So how do you stop it??

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03-20-2007, 10:46 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, There's too much room for abuse. Look at it this way, in order for the grading companies to make money, they can't pay the graders that much. Maybe 10 - 15 dollars an hour. Are they really going to spend extra on having a separate security system to make sure the graders don't cheat for their friends. The people who submit their cards stand to make maybe an additional $500 if they recieve a better grade on a nice prewar Hall of Famer. However, the grading company will make the same 10 bucks either way. The person submitting the card has a much higher incentive to try and influence the grader. Since the grader isn't making all that much, he may listen. Peter

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03-20-2007, 10:47 AM

Posted By: George Dreher And Jerry Springer got the highest ratings at one time didn't he?

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03-20-2007, 10:55 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing, After talking with Kevin are you more optimistic? pessimistic? is there realistic hope? I am going to try to call Kevin today. No word yet from Joe on other topic. I have tried.

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03-20-2007, 10:59 AM

Posted By: Jason Lit is entirely possible to be popular or important for the wrong reasons

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03-20-2007, 11:06 AM

Posted By: cmokingLeon, you're right. I did take you out of context...apologies. John, you're right too. I don't think there is much that can be done right now. I think the best way is for collectors to learn what they can, and try to avoid the altered cards, whether in holders or not. Jim, after talking to Kevin, I'm not more or less optimistic about the hobby. But I am much more optimistic about my own interest in this hobby.

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03-20-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing, Why is that?

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03-20-2007, 11:19 AM

Posted By: cmokingbecause I feel I have a better understanding of what to look for from what Kevin has shown me. I've returned a couple of cards already in PSA holders that had signs of trimming, I would not have noticed them a year ago. And if I'm suspicious but not as certain about a card, Kevin is willing to take a look and let me know what he sees - sometimes he sees nothing wrong (and it's a relief as I will feel more comfortable keeping the card), other times it hurts. Based on some results, there are certain big-time perfect feedback sellers on ebay that I will now absolutely stay away from because the rate of altered cards is way too high. The bottomline for me is I am more happy and comfortable with my current collection than I was before.

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03-20-2007, 12:04 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing, Interesting--we will have to exchange lists perhaps? Mine is growing all time. Jim

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03-20-2007, 12:14 PM

Posted By: DaveWell, just read all of this from this morning. Ok Crandell...can we get back on topic now? Please?

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03-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI thought we were on topic.

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03-20-2007, 12:25 PM

Posted By: JKPeter, The grading system doesnt work in the manner you are assuming. I dont disagree that some bigger submitters may get preferential treatment. However, I doubt seriously its from the $10 per hour graders - most likely, its coming from much higher up. The graders getting the bulk of submissions are supposedly given cards without reference to who the cards belong - only a submission number.

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03-20-2007, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Jason Lyou could provide the Board in the near-term would be to publish your list of these high-volume, good feedback sellers from which you have bought material but would no longer do so (for whatever reason). ...rather than privately exchange the names of those with whom you will no longer do business with. Because I'm sure most would agree that if you do not wish to do business with certain sellers, then neither would I or most others... I suppose the language would need to be carefully chosen, but I'm sure some lawyers on the Board could help out with that. That would be truly helpful to most everyone, I would imagine. Perhaps a simple "Here are dealers I do not buy from" list...rather than making any explicit claims of one sort or another. Thanks, Jason

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03-20-2007, 01:52 PM

Posted By: David VarghaWow! Talk about shooting the messenger. Kevin is extremely knowledgeable on the subject and has always been more than willing to share his expertise with friends, collectors and even the professional grading companies. I love it when the self-professed "know-it-alls" jump in with their obligatory responses to prove their ignorance whenever and wherever they can. Sheesh! DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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03-20-2007, 01:57 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf the hobby has reached the point where collectors begin losing faith in the grading system, and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent, then the day of reckoning is not far. If ever there were a cataclysmic event that could send the market crashing, this is it.

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03-20-2007, 01:59 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThanks David--its unbelievable isn't it?

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03-20-2007, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Jason LI will be heading out to the desert in my RV, with my tin foil hat on my head, a beer in one hand, and binoculars in the other!!!

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03-20-2007, 02:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJason- go for it! I predict the world is coming to an end (I'm still working on the exact date).

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03-20-2007, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezFor the continuing adventures of: As The Market Turns. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-20-2007, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Kevin"...and begin to believe that even their graded material is fraudulent" Well, just 15% anyways. LOL btw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me) <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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03-20-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSad but true, I think anything and anyone associated with or supported by Jim Crandell automatically gets looked at with a jaundiced eye by the board. I suspect that had Kevin come in and posted without Jim's intro and play by play, he would have been treated differently.

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03-20-2007, 02:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- I'm not doubting anything you say, but this is all too depressing. I think it's time for a new career (but not quite yet).

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03-20-2007, 02:25 PM

Posted By: DaveJeff...am I the only one puzzled by Crandell's constant praise and shoulder massaging he is doing on the behalf of Kevin? Kevin sounds like a smart guy. I don't think Kevin needs to be massaged or whispered sweet nothings by Jim. Not sure where Jim is going with all this...as usual.

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03-20-2007, 02:27 PM

Posted By: David Varghabtw...thanks Mr. Vargha (a sign of respect, he's much older than me) I believe that operative word here is "taller" (not "older"). DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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03-20-2007, 02:56 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, No need to give it a lot of thought--my motives remain the same--get rid of card restoration and save the hobby. You can quit analyzing.

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03-20-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Yeah but only a minority of collectors read Net54 or LTS and the rest of the world thinks things are great--probably for one that is an investor, a good time to be taking some money off the table.

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03-20-2007, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Cobby33The more we talk about "fraudulent" cards in holders leading to the demise of the hobby, etc., the more likely this is to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether this is an epidemic or not, it's going to be perceived as one and unfortunately, the unfounded panic may very well cause what we (you) all fear, a market crash of sorts. Keep talkin' about it without qualifying it on a case-by-case basis and it'll happen.

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03-20-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: DaveHardly anything to analyze. It's a repetitive process at this point. Every few days you have to come on here and jump on the same ship again and again. Correct me if I'm wrong..but other than card "fraud" is there a single topic you've even tried to jump in and discuss? Other than the "keep the threads on topic" debacle?

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03-20-2007, 03:14 PM

Posted By: leonFine with me if the sky falls. I am not an investor and will still be collecting....It would suck (value-wise) but at least I would be able to buy more cards. I agree that only a very small percentage of collectors read any chatboards, especially this one and the private LTS one.....Personally, if I wanted to collect privately I probably wouldn't collect....but again, to each their own....Whatever makes ya' happy......best regards

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03-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, You seem to want to spend your time studying my motives so I thought I would save you some time. Graded cards I love to talk about--any serious hobby issues.

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03-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Posted By: T206Collector....I think Jim's motives are simple enough. I do think he wants to save the hobby, even if it doesn't need to be saved -- he wants to save his puritan image of the hobby, which caused him to stick with PSA 8 cards in the first place. He's trying to restore his initial feeling about the purity and rarity of PSA 8. And, when he finds someone that he thinks supports his belief system, he is desperate to align himself with that person to find a shield from the attacks -- having alienated even his early supporters on this Board he's continuing to look for safety in numbers. Of course, having him on your side is the kiss of death for anyone with a valid point to say. The revulsion and acrimony people feel towards him makes it hard for any real issues to get through. Perhaps one day he'll realize that and let the useful points through, without clouding them up with statements that amount to, "See, guys, that's all I was trying to say all along," with a strong whiff of arrogance.

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03-20-2007, 05:24 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellNo T206 you are wrong again. How someone can be so consistently wrong I will never know. I think this time he was wrong about altered cards being primarily high grade and as usual he takes out his frustrations on me. You are a very disturbed man and I feel sorry for you T206 or whoever you are. Go kick your dog or whatever it is you do.

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03-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAre you two guys at it again?

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03-20-2007, 05:29 PM

Posted By: BrianKevin doesn't need Jim's help to piss people off, I am confident in his ability to piss people off on his own. Vargha is taller than Kevin, but that's not a high hurdle...

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03-20-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJust responding Barry--I could care less about the guy--he keeps attacking me out of the blue--I will respond. His way of attacking me is to say I have no friends--ha ha . He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.

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03-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCan anyone remember what Adam Moraine did to get banned from this board? I know he was annoying, but geez it couldn't have been worse than this. I think that little kid who kept asking about the first baseball card was less annoying than our current resident troll.

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03-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Marc S.and for those of you who dismiss him as a buffoon playing with bleach -- you have no clue what you are talking about. Kevin can expertly detect trim jobs, recolorations, gloss additions, and myriad other alterations that aren't even on the radar screen of some experienced graders. Kevin is a student of the hobby -- and he is absolutely one of the good guys who is willing to try and educate collectors about what to be careful for. For me, it is always a sad testament about the human condition that so many are so willing to drop thousands of dollars on rare and/or high grade material without doing any due diligence on those materials -- and then crying foul if they found out a dealer sold them a trimmed card, of when they find out that some graders are more or less reputable than others. I am very thankful for Kevin's expertise and assistance, and I think his warnings, sometimes dire, simply highlight a worst-case scenario that many of us care not to imagine. Consider how many auctioneers/dealers/collectors may know bits and pieces of this same information, but are simply not talking about it. Marc

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03-20-2007, 05:46 PM

Posted By: boxingcardmanThe hypothetical situation where cards just drop and drop in value. I think it would look something like the collecting situation for post-1990 base cards does now. Some people still collect them but most of the people who were into shiny crap collecting appear to have bailed. I suppose I'd stay involved with vintage regardless of value since I enjoy the collecting, the socializing and the challenge of putting together a collection of rare objects (I collect lots of "worthless" stuff now; just ask my wife). I was collecting before it was big bucks, I collect now, and I'd collect if it went back to 1975 prices; heck I'd probably go back to being a five sport plus nonsports collector like I was 25-30 years ago.

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03-20-2007, 05:54 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBretta, I feel the same way about you--you ruin every interesting thread there is with a video and you never have anything interesting to add.

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03-20-2007, 06:01 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, why does every thread in which you participate end up with you and nine people in a fight? What is the common denominator?

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03-20-2007, 06:07 PM

Posted By: BillMany people do appreciate what it is Kevin does. However, how can you feel sorry for people dropping money down on cards when there are people out there who simply won't share the information on what to look for in an expertly altered card? Nobody is looking for details on how it's done, just what to look for in a card it has been done to. Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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03-20-2007, 06:11 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJeff, the common denominator in this case is - one. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yiGOKAWDy7c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yiGOKAWDy7c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

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03-20-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDan- I'm really hooked on youtube these days, and I've made some great finds. If you are a Beatles fan, use the search "Beatles Come to Town" and you will see something really special. I had to hijack this thread. I can't take any more of this fighting.

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03-20-2007, 06:19 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJeff, The common denominator is there are a group of people on this board who resent or dislike my focus on restoration of cards and perhaps the way I have gone about it. Usually same suspects--you, T206,Bretta and a few others who I can't recall. Certainly I have no interest in calling people names or even bringing ones family into it such as been done. But I will respond to the personal attacks.

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03-20-2007, 06:26 PM

Posted By: ScottIngoldAdam J Morain (sp?) Now there's a name from the past. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-20-2007, 06:27 PM

Posted By: BrianI agree with everything that Marc said. The only thing he failed to mention is how short Kevin really is.

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03-20-2007, 06:29 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, I don't resent or dislike your main reason for being here. I dislike your attitude, and your innate ability to offend everyone on this board in a near constant fashion. If you go back and read the old threads you will see that I was on your side at one time. Can you not see that you have managed to alienate nearly every poster on this board?

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03-20-2007, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, I support the issue of cleaning up card doctoring. Nearly everyone does out here. Incredibly you consistently refuse to acknowledge that you are the one that has rubbed just about everyone out here the wrong way. What does your family have to do with it? Whatever family you may have has not even been mentioned in this thread. Just another desperate attempt to deflect blame from yourself. I don't even know if you have a family -- and frankly with the way you treat people I would find it hard to imagine that you have an intact family (and I'm not saying that to be a smartass). I think you just for once, finally, need to recognize that there is a reason why people out here (and off the board as well -- trust me on this one it is true) dislike you. I actually feel bad for you and I wish you'd get some sort of help for your problem instead of just continuing to play the victim. Please note that nothing in here is a personal attack. Just fair and honest criticism.

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03-20-2007, 06:40 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Guys, I avoid these threads like the Plague for a reason; they stink.... I come here to exchange info with other collectors, not fight with them. I am happy to share my knowledge with anyone who is interested, and I am very happy to learn from those who know more than me. I thank everyone who takes the time to educate others, and wish the people who bring nothing but negativity to the board would think before they speak. Be well to all Brian PS We all know that "card doctors" exist, and that they have existed for quite sometime, but a lot of us have the skills to discern real from altered through experience and do not need to be saved. Could we use some "new" information on the latest techniques? Absolutely.... The funny thing is, that most of the people on this board are TRUE collectors who can't stand fakes or alterations, So why do we have an arguement every week??? I'm sorry I just don't get it.... PS 2 Barry I need some Seinfeld.... A job at Kramarerica industies will be just fine, don't go Kenny.....

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03-20-2007, 06:41 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellMy side?? Who cares?? This isn't a game where we pick sides. And I could care less if I have alienated you and others. I am here to publicize the alterations/restorations being done and hopefully have something done about it. Other than that I am interested in graded cards and discussing serious topics without it being interrupted by your videos. Please just go away or play your videos on a music site or start a separate thread. Getting Kevin on here was huge. He confirmed a number of things I have been saying all along. Hopefully he will post again--as Marc points out the guy is super knowledgeable.

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03-20-2007, 06:44 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaHopefully he will post again - I am especially interested in the questions that Wonka has asked that have so far gone unanswered.

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03-20-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJeff, I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't. Again, I could care less what you think of me. You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror.

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03-20-2007, 06:45 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI just saw Seinfeld being interviewed by David Steinberg and he talked about a routine he used to do about the wanted posters with the mug shots of the criminals at the post office...it went something like "why didn't they just hold onto these guys when they took the picture?" I thought that was a typically funny Seinfeld observation.

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03-20-2007, 06:48 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim C wrote: "Jeff, I have been told by many not to engage you so I won't. Again, I could care less what you think of me. You are the one in my opinion who needs to look in the mirror." This may be single funniest thing you have ever posted. You won't engage him, but you do just that in the very next sentence. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Well done!

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03-20-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- may I ask you a direct question? Why do you continually say you don't care what people think of you, and that you are not on the board to make friends? Because the way I see it, I think you find some personal satisfaction in making enemies. I know not everyone can like me, but I couldn't post on the board if all day long people were attacking me. I just can't fathom the thinking behind that.

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03-20-2007, 06:49 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, you keep saying that you've been told not to engage me -- yet you continually do. Actually, I have had some very funny conversations about you with people offboard and none have warned me about not engaging you. They've actually found your responses enlightening and hilarious.

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03-20-2007, 06:55 PM

Posted By: Brian WeisnerThanks Barry, I needed a good laugh.... I actually look at the wanted posters in my little post office sometimes, but have never seen any of them, except on AMW... Thank you John Walsh. Time for 24. Be well Brian

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03-20-2007, 07:11 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you and you too can be enlightened if you would just listen and learn.

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03-20-2007, 07:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- Jeff does listen and learn, and he is a pretty smart guy. Why would you even say that? And please answer my question if you could. Thank you.

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03-20-2007, 07:14 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Wonder what's going to happen when, by innuendo (or worse), somebody is falsely "outed" for altering cards. Eventually, someone is going to be sued for loose-talking-guess we'll just have to sit back and wait.

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03-20-2007, 07:20 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWasn't somebody who resides at a higher altitude than most of us already accused of altering cards? Nothing ever came of that.

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03-20-2007, 07:29 PM

Posted By: JohnYou guys know what needs to be done, pick up the baby give him some attention and he’ll doze off to sleep until another day…then its pick up the baby…repeat this as many times as you can. The most important thing is pay attention to Jim! That's a good little Jim, youu'ree so smart aren't ya, I could just eat you up, num num num....I'm eating you up.... <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/mrbean_baby1.jpg"> “He won't be invited to my annual summer bash-card show this year.” All joking aside.... I know T206collector is out but I’m still invited right??? I mean I had planned on making my famous Noodle Kaboodle and everything, and most the guys here will tell you its really good. Barry loves the stuff; he offered me some 19th stuff for the recipe. So I’m still in right????? Jim right?? Hello Jim????

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03-20-2007, 07:34 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- You've got to share that noodle kaboodle recipe with me!

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03-20-2007, 07:38 PM

Posted By: JohnNEVER SLOATE! FOR THE LAST TIME NEVER! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/-46.gif"> LAY OFF WILL YA, TAKE A HINT! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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03-20-2007, 07:50 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonkaticket, Yup you can come--but bring the picture--although I am not going to change the date for you. Like last year there are certain to be several illustrious guests. Barry--direct answer--because I don't. Doesn't bother me at all--I consider the sources.

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03-20-2007, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Rob DewolfJust for the record, if you're trying to say that you care very little about something, the correct phrase is "I couldn't care less" as opposed to "I could care less."

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03-20-2007, 08:05 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBarry, of course Jim cares that everyone dislikes him. Any human would -- it's literally human nature to care that people hate you whether you admit it or not. It's one of the things that separates us from the animals. Why do you think he's so quick to kiss up to certain posters who have previously attacked him wildly out here -- just to try to align himself with someone, anyone for comfort? I'm also sure Jim has sent you plenty of emails decrying his treatment on the board - assuming he has, why else would he send them unless the constant criticism bothered him? I think the problem is that Jim knows of no other way to communicate with others and, inevitably, he gets himself into these predicaments time and time again, in venue after venue. As such, he has to try to claim that he enjoys the hatred because, otherwise, he'd be forced to acknowledge that a) he has a problem and b) he must fix the problem. These are two things that are either too painful for Jim to accomplish or too difficult. A rough analogy would be when Pee Wee Herman flips over the handlebars of his bike, rolls on the ground and then pops up, miraculously unscathed. His immediate reaction? "I meant to do that." The speed in which Jim gets frustrated, as evidenced by his now expected and juvenile "ha ha" and "I consider the source" responses indicates that he just cannot figure out how to handle his problem in an adult, rational manner -- and instead just lashes out with non-sequiturs that are not responsive or logical. Another rough analogy especially for you: remember the guy that Elaine dated that when frustrated with her after she criticized him would say things like "you've got a big head - do birds ever fly into that gigantic head?" Same mentality.

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03-20-2007, 08:20 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellIn the case of Jeff, its called an obsession. Apparently he has absolutely nothing else going on in his life that he ponders on and on about me, asks others not on the board about me and attributes all these thoughts to me. This is someone with a first class psychological problem no doubt about it. Sorry--I have not sent Barry plenty of e-mails--but if you spend hours and hours more obsessing over me perhaps you can find someone. Jeff hates me everyone--he wants everyone to know--he hasn't said it enough times so I will say it again for him. Funny thing though--evry time I try to engage him in specifics or e-mail me to discuss his views he never responds and reverts to the hate Jim approach.

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03-20-2007, 08:23 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJim, did you have to respond exactly the way I predicted you would?

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03-20-2007, 08:24 PM

Posted By: John"Yup you can come" "Like last year there are certain to be several illustrious guests." Sweet!! Hmmm I wonder who they will be these illustrious guests??? Ahh man this is going to drive me crazy, am I the only one who is wondering who??? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/large/Untitled-1.jpg">

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03-20-2007, 08:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, You are going to have to wait until the invites are out--and although you are invited as of this moment, you are going to have to watch yourself--one slip-up and you are on the same list as T206 is and you miss it all.

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03-20-2007, 08:48 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovI too have found Kevin to be of great assistance in some of my card purchases. Without compensation, he has advised me on graded cards which have been expertly altered. I will, however, take issue with his 15% alteration rate. PSA, SGC and GAI have graded something like 15 million cards. That would leave 2 million bad cards out there in slabs. I don't see how the card docs, working day and night, could ever possibly alter that many cards. Frank

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03-20-2007, 09:12 PM

Posted By: JohnThen I feel it's only fair to warn you no Wonka....no Noodle Kaboodle!

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03-20-2007, 09:32 PM

Posted By: Neal Kane15% of all slabbed cards are altered? Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin. Like many others, I believe that you are talented but that number seems ridiculous.

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03-20-2007, 09:52 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliPeter: Sometimes it feels like the values of cards DO drop by the hour after I purchased them. I've been giving your question a lot of thought, and although I do not consider myself an investor in this hobby (if I am an investor, I'm an awfully bad one), I do think that if the values of cards continued to decline, I probably would make a few subtle changes in my collecting habits. First, I would want to recover some of the cash I have invested in my '38 Goudey set. So if I saw prices declining rapidly, I'd probably sell that set as quickly as I could - not because I don't love the cards, but because I sure have spent a lot of money on them. Second, I may "repurpose" some of what I collect. I've always liked larger-format cards with photography - cards like Exhibits, R314s, and the like. I have shied away from them due to the fact that I don't generally like building sets. But if prices changed dramatically, I'd be interested in making a run at sets like that. Third, I really do like 1952 Bowmans. I'd probably try and build a set of those in high grade. Lastly, I'd probably go after some more difficult large-format cards like W600s, M110s, and other cabinets. I really do love cards like that - they're very pleasing to me, but a little steep for my current card budget in most cases. Sorry to have hijacked the thread. -Al

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03-20-2007, 10:16 PM

Posted By: Kevin"15% of all slabbed cards are altered? Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin." You're right, me neither. Let me restate; 15% of vintage cards that I have inspected (which is quite a few). Wouldn't make much sense considering all the cards from, let say, 1975 on up that are in slabs. "The only thing he failed to mention is how short Kevin really is." Yes, a towering 5'5" but I have a trash can lid and not afraid to use it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.

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03-21-2007, 05:00 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKevin, Do you think in terms of percentages more prewar cards have been altered? Sorry I got tied up--will try again today. Jim

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03-21-2007, 10:10 AM

Posted By: peter chaoAl, Actually, your post is only one of a few that have been on point. At least your honest in stating that you would like to get your money back. A lot of people say they would hold on through thick and thin. However, a lot of times the market doesn't have to change much to change their minds. This is a new year and I propose a truce. Perhaps we can't create peace in the Middle East but let's at least be civil to each other on this board. Peter

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03-21-2007, 10:40 AM

Posted By: Jason LPeace in the middle East is closer than peace on this Board! Actually, in 2007, I would settle for a gentle unwinding of the collective institutional overweight in the energy sector, as opposed to a capitulatory event that removes the speculative excess in the commodity and shocks the system...But hey, I would take peace in the Middle East too! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-21-2007, 10:52 AM

Posted By: ChadI'd still collect. I'd probably pick a couple of sets to work on and then supplement that with cards/players I just think are cool. I'd love to be able to collect 19th century stuff, but it's impossible right now. So, until everyone else picks up their ball and goes home, I'll stick to working on my Negro League master set which has become very rewarding in itself. --Chad

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03-21-2007, 12:21 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezThat's what Slab World contributed to the Hobby. It created The MARK -- et. Which brought in The MARKS. AKA the investor/numerologist = easy Marks for The MARK -- et. True collectors will ride out any crash, simply because they're not disciples of ..... Da MARK -- et. Dear God. For what we're about to receive. Make us truly thankful. ... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Edited the word tryly to truly, but for some strange reason, tryly looks better.

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03-21-2007, 12:31 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, Thank you--one can only pray that the attackers will stop soon for the health of the board.

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03-23-2007, 06:06 PM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, I don't expect a catastrophic drop in the card market any time soon. So this exercise has been purely academic. I plan to continue to add to my prewar card collection indefinitely into the future. Regular price adjustments should have little effect on my collecting habits. Peter

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03-24-2007, 02:03 AM

Posted By: Joe Pelaezpeter chao March 18 2007, 2:41 PM Modern Cards Would Also Drop Well if the prewar stuff dropped then the modern card market would probably follow. I would stop collecting both. Peter * * Will the real Peter Chao ... PLEASE STAND UP. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-24-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, I'm a 100% committed to the Hobby. Kind of. For the normal ups and downs of the market it's not a problem, I'm committed to finishing off my '33 Goudey and other sets that I've started. But who knows, if the market seriously gets out of whack I'd rather not deal with it. It's sort of like practicing law, who wants a whacko client. As a matter of fact, I'd probably spend more time practicing law and less time posting if it weren't for some of my semi-whacko clients. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-24-2007, 01:26 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-24-2007, 01:46 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, I love it...if you were on the Titanic and it was going down for the last time...you would probably be still sorting your cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm sure that you must sell or trade away some of your cards once in a while otherwise your bedroom would be in bigger mess than mine and I can't quite imagine that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-24-2007, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Kevin Saucier In that situation it would be best to sort through Titanic cards <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <a href="http://www.titanicitems.com/pics.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.titanicitems.com/pics.htm</a> going down for the last time..? (LOL)

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03-24-2007, 04:03 PM

Posted By: Joe Pelaez"Joe, I love it...if you were on the Titanic and it was going down for the last time...you would probably be still sorting your cards. " * * You're probably right. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Slowly, but ever so slowly, you'll learn the difference between a sicko collector, and a disciple of Da - MARKet. Your description of a market collector is perfect. It has more to do with the stock market, than it does with a HOBBY. Amigo, what you are failing to understand is that I got involved with cards to get away from the rat race of da MARKet. I wanted to collect for the enjoyment of it, and strictly for the sublimation it gave me. The last thing that I wanted was to make it part of my portfolio. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ---------------------------------------------- "I'm sure that you must sell or trade away some of your cards once in a while otherwise your bedroom would be in bigger mess than mine and I can't quite imagine that. " Peter * * Peter, I once traded a T217 Mono for another Mono with Mr. Chericone, and this is gonna really knock your Market mindset off. ... I've never sold a card. Boy am I sick. .... is there a doctor in the house. Better yet, .. get me Dr. House. About my bedroom, ..... wanna bet? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Back to the Titanic. Can anyone tell me how I can keep my cards dry? Joe

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03-25-2007, 08:51 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, You probably don't want to think of yourself as part of the vintage card market, but you are, if guys like you weren't around the cards would be pretty close to worthless. As long as the serious and passionate collector is around, the supply of vintage cards will continue to become more limited and prices will continue to trend up. So I want to thank you and others who help make my collecting and investing more enjoyable. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-25-2007, 03:37 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezYou still don't get it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> You said: "As long as the serious and passionate collector is around, the supply of vintage cards will continue to become more limited and prices will continue to trend up." * * Peter, do you really believe that? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just look at this board. There's nothing wrong with it, but you can't deny that this forum is predominantly a price oriented board. How much? Who grades best? Is this a 5 or a 3? The questions are valid, but again let's be honest, they represent the Wall Street Journal more than Lipset's encyclopedias. This may come as a shock to you, but the only time that this forum gives the appearance of being a pre WWI card forum, is when the handfull of collectors on this board talk about the actual cards, and not the "How much?" The fact is, speculators and investors outnumber collectors on this board. Again I say, nothing what so ever wrong with that, .. but I can't help thinking that maybe a 1929 baseball card crash might not be so bad. Speculators can go back to the Wall Street Journal, and collectors can go back to having collector like fun. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> It would be like putting the "H" back in the Hobby. Please Do Not wake me up, I'm beginning to like this dream. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2007, 08:18 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, I agree with you but my point was that the earnest collector (people like you) were the ones that created the market by collecting and holding when others thought vintage cards were worthless pieces of cardboard. You guys are also the brake when speculators and investors decide to sell. Thus your role in the vintage market is extremely important. Peter

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03-25-2007, 09:09 PM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, A secondary point I'd like to make is that not all collectors think the increasing value of their collection is a hindrance. Personally, I bought 4 T206 Hall of Famers during the past two years. So far, they have gone up a 100%, I do not expect them to continue going up at that rate but I appreciate that and it adds to my enjoyment of collecting and I do not consider it a hindrance. Since, you've been collecting T206's much longer than I have, I suspect your collection is worth at least 5-10 times the money you put into it. Why is that a negative. Also, other people would be fools not to invest and speculate. Who knows among the investors and speculators there may also be some people who will become serious collectors. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-25-2007, 09:22 PM

Posted By: Cobby33In large part, what Joe says, I believe, is accurate. If the Vintage market "adjusts," I would be willing to bet the demand for cards people buy to enjoy would remain steady (or increase) and the high-grade, high-dollar (just to be high-dollar) cards would lower. If you think about it, do people spend large amounts of money on high-grade cards because they have an expensive fettish for nicer-looking cards; or because there's a perception that they will appreciate at a higher rate? I would guess the latter. This phenonemon is no different than most any investment of tangible goods. It is also a truism that without the draw of flipping cards for a quick (large) profit, the "epidemic" of altering, cheating, etc. would wane as well- it simply wouldn't be worth it. Then we'll have nothing to talk about.

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03-25-2007, 10:15 PM

Posted By: peter chaoCobby, Your right there's an epidemic of cheating and that is a negative brought on by those who want to take a short cut, guys who are not satisfied with 20% annual increases. However, the investment mentality also encouraged the growth of card graders and so far they have done a decent job of controlling the epidemic. So ironically, the investment mentality may have saved the hobby and the internet has brought the hobby to more people. So the impact of investors may not be that negative. Peter

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03-25-2007, 10:31 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Peter- I agree. I think overall, the investors help the hobby. I was merely pointing out what may happen in an overall adjustment. But I do agree with your learned points.

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03-25-2007, 11:29 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCount me among the people who would love to see the market hit bottom on prewar cards...not that it will ever happen. I don't own a single card in a slab. I will take Poor/Fair cards all day long -I will take ex/mint cards if I could, but on my long ago abandoned shot at the Monster ($ to Bill Heitman) I had cards ranging in all grades and I never looked to upgrade - it was just filling holes and once it was filled it was filled. I much prefer learning about the guys on the cardboard than flipping for profit. That's a whole other game and I have nothing against anyone who does that because I know a lot of people do that to finance their hobby and they are very good at it - it's just not the way I approach the hobby. Nearly all of my focus is collecting items that I view as companion pieces to the research and resulting knowledge of the game I love. Now with all that gibberish out of the way....if I had unlimited funds and it didn't matter that the market is very high and buying a PSA1-2 Wagner would be the same as the average guy buying a hamburger I would go absoulutely crazy - My focus would expand to include set building of every major set pre-WW2. Every member of this board would hate me. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-25-2007, 11:33 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezPeter, every one of your points, only points out my point that points out and proves that you are an Investor in Denial. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Even your fellow speculators will agree to the fact that it was the graders that created the cardboard MARKet. Why are you always the last to get the word? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Elated that you cornered your 4 T206 HOF's. Tell me, when you called your investment broker, did you tell him to add them to your portfolio with the U S Steel stock, or that you're adding a new word to the investment lingo. You are now collecting stocks. Peter, an investor in denial is not a crime, you've already come out of the closet on that point. Believe me, I don't give a rats @ss if your T206 stock goes up or down. What you fail to grasp is the simple fact that you and I have a totally different mindset about the cardboard. Simply stated, my fun and joy is filling an empty slot in a binder. Whereas your fun and joy is the upside of the T206 MARKet. As a matter of fact, I have archived where you said that if the card stock MARKet took a dive, you would stop investing in cardboard. Now here's the part where you have difficulties in understanding. Being that the ups and down of your stock MARKet was never part of my game plan, if your MARKet takes a dive, I would continue to try to fill an empty slot in the binder. Peter, There's an old movie called "Born Yesterday." In it, Broderick Crawford has a classic line with a young William Holden. "Never crap a crapper." During those days, among other things, you weren't allowed to use the word "Bull Sh!t." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-26-2007, 08:40 AM

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, Dan has a more balanced approach to the hobby. You keep on insisting that I am only an investor, whereas I consider myself an investor-collector. Granted I may not be as serious a collector as you are but I am concerned about what happens to the hobby. Only in extreme conditions would I sell my core collection of 200 cards. I do not plan on going down with the ship, I would rather try to save a little of my money and put it into something more enjoyable. Perhaps a true collector would rather collect cards than eat, I would rather eat and find other things to enjoy in life. It may sound crazy but some of us believe that there is more to life than baseball cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-26-2007, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliOh, good. I was trying to find out where I should go in order to find out where on the spectrum of "seriousness" I am as a collector. Looks like I've found the place. Can't wait to find out how legitimate I am. Can someone please tell me how to download the forms I have to fill out, and who I need to forward them to? -Al

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03-26-2007, 09:49 AM

Posted By: dennisyou know you're an investor when you start threads like this one.

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03-26-2007, 11:43 AM

Posted By: peter chaoDennis, I never said I was just a collector, but I resent it when you serious collectors say that I can not also be a collector. I still remember walking around the neighborhood to collect coke bottles so that I could buy another box of Topps Wax Packs so that I could complete my series. However, I was never patient enough to complete a set of Topps. Then recently I finished a set of '57 Topps including the Baker error in ungraded EX-MT condition. One day I would like to have a master set. And Joe doesn't take it seriously when I say the collector is the foundation for the market. Let's put it this way as an investor I feel much more comfortable knowing that there's a group of serious collectors out there that will buy when the market is dropping like a rock. I'm comforted by the fact that the market would eventually turn around. Peter

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03-26-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Cobby33200!

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03-26-2007, 05:30 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezLet me ponder the imponderable.

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03-26-2007, 05:35 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezA collector and a speculator? A Wall Street Journal card speculator? A sicko Lipset encyclopedia card collector? Both in the same body? Hmmn? Ya know Peter, I think you may have something there. This may be before your time, but a few years back, there were a couple of movies about this sort of thing. One was called "The Three Faces of Eve, and the other one was called Sybil. It was about multiple personalities. The Sybil one, was about 5, 6 or possibly more personalities. I am finding your claim of both being a speculator, and a collector very disappointing. Disappointing in the fact, that in comparison to Eve and Sybil, ... you're an underachiever. Then again, ..... you're a speculator. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-26-2007, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovAnd Joe doesn't take it seriously when I say the collector is the foundation for the market. Let's put it this way as an investor I feel much more comfortable knowing that there's a group of serious collectors out there that will buy when the market is dropping like a rock. I'm comforted by the fact that the market would eventually turn around. Are you saying that we are the backbone of the hobby?<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

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03-26-2007, 06:16 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFrank, I waited all day for someone to say that. It was particularly painful to stifle myself for all these hours.

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03-26-2007, 07:15 PM

Posted By: peter chaoFrank, Joe Absolutely, you guys are "the backbone of the hobby." But you guys need to give the investor speculator a little credit, they are bringing new money and new blood into the hobby. The way I see it is I earned my money the old fashion way and I should be able to collect, invest, or speculate the way I want. Just like your free to collect the way you want. And I do not apologize for energizing the market and putting money in the pockets of the collectors if they wish to sell their cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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03-26-2007, 07:25 PM

Posted By: leonarmpits....ARMPIT COLLECTORS UNITE !!

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03-26-2007, 08:00 PM

Posted By: RC McKenzieFound this e98 red background hofer Evers on the pinksheets for $34. Provenance: 'Sara'... <img src="http://i20.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/93/4b/350f_1.JPG">

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03-26-2007, 09:18 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezHow dare you. We're talking MARK et here. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-27-2007, 06:00 AM

Posted By: barrysloatePeter- if you wish to collect baseball cards with an eye on their investment potential, I don't think you have to apologize to anyone. "Investment" is treated as a taboo word around here but the fact is cards have appreciated tremendously over the past five years. If you make some money and have some fun with it along the way, it's nobody's business. There have been numerous people on the board who have said they would love to see the market collapse so that they could buy many of the cards they can't afford today. I am one of those who feel a market collapse would be a bad thing. Nothing wrong with a little stability and less volatility, but a collapse could put me out of business and add tremendous stress to the lives of many collectors.

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03-27-2007, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliWe're remodeling our kitchen. We're doing it because our existing kitchen needs updating - we don't like the cabinets, the tile, or the appliances, and would like to update them all. We're also utilizing the space better, getting more effective cabinetry, creating a work area for the kids to do homework, and getting a better oven. We'd like the kitchen to be a unique area, easier to work in than it is now, and better capable of meeting the needs of our family. It is costing a lot of money. We're not doing it because it will increase the value of our home, as we have no intention of selling our home any time soon. However, it's nice to know that some portion of the investment that we're making WILL increase the home's value, and that we'll be able to capture some of the dollars we put into it in the event that we decide to sell the house someday. So. We're doing it because we'd really like to have a more contemporary kitchen. But there is money involved, and so we're trying to be smart about the expense, so that when the time comes, we've added to the value of our home. Is that bad? -Al

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03-27-2007, 09:30 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's not only not bad (double negative), but it's actually the smart thing to do. I'm sure as a family you spend a lot of time in the kitchen, so you will be able to enjoy the finished product. And it is reasonable to assume that one day you will in fact sell the house, so you've made a good investment. To follow the comparison, why can't a baseball card be a collectable, an antiquity, a piece of baseball history, and an investment all at the same time?

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03-27-2007, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliThat's what I'm saying, Barry, exactly. The other day I replaced my SGC 40 T206 Eddie Collins (Piedmont) with an SGC 40 Eddie Collins (EPDG). I want as many T206 HOFers with tougher backs as possible, and so I "upgraded" within the grade. I also just replaced my PSA 6 1938 Goudey Jimmy Foxx with a nicer PSA 5, because to me, the 5 is a nicer-looking card. Both of those purchases cost real money - a few hundred dollars in total. As much as I'd like to pay for my baseball cards in toothpicks, sellers don't like receiving toothpicks. So I have to pay money. If I'm going to be conscious of how much I spend, but still acquire the cards I'd like to add to my collection, I need to consider what other people would pay for them as well. So when I go out an spend $200 on an E121 HOFer because it has a Henry Johnson back, I've got to know that I'm not the only knucklehead in the hobby who's willing to pay that much money for the card. Because if the engine falls out of my car and I need to come up with some quick cash without selling a kidney, I could sell my H-J backs to someone. I just don't understand why that's a bad thing. -Al

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03-27-2007, 10:06 AM

Posted By: peter chaoGuys, We pretty much agree that the money part is not necessarily bad. Also, there are some who blame the investors and speculators for the trimmed and colored cards. That is also unfair. Investors and speculators may take a gamble on the market but they want to get their money fairly. Thieves and counterfeiters are simply attracted by the money. They don't care beans about the hobby and kids. They don't care about who they screw, they probably think counterfeiting bills are too dangerous because the feds will go after them. So they counterfeit baseball cards. The hobby needs to work together to stop counterfeiters. We need to work with the graders and the law enforcement people. Peter

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03-27-2007, 10:09 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsAl, It's not bad at all. There seems to be an air of superiority among some collectors here who think that if you want your cards to appreciate in value, then you're not a "true collector." That couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't like speaking for other people, but I do like collecting and love cards. It's a great escape. But I'd be fooling myself if I said I do not care whether my cards increase in value in the future. That's just plain silly. It doesn't make me any less of a collector than those who hold disdain for slabbing (we get it, you guys don't like it, ok!). And why is there a negative connotation to being a speculator? I speculate on alot of different areas, but I'm still a collector. It's what each person does that makes them happy and enjoy this hobby that matters. Trying to say one person is a "true" collector is, well, kinda childish, and I thought we left that on the playground. But then again, I could be wrong. Speculators, investors, collectors, armpits and backbones, unite! Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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03-27-2007, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliA lot of the trimmed cards in the prewar arena have nothing whatsoever to do with investors and deception. A lot of trimmed T and E cards were trimmed in the 70s and 80s by collectors who just wanted their cards to fit better in the plastic sheets that were available at the time. Deception had nothing to do with it. It was done for aesthetic, storage and display reasons. Unfortunately we're living with it now, because if we want untrimmed cards in our collection, we have to be vigilant about identifying cards that were trimmed down 30 years ago, and are often tougher to detect than cards that were trimmed two weeks ago by a card doctor looking to get a T206 into an 8 holder. -Al

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03-27-2007, 10:14 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think what makes the baseball card market so fluid is it is so many things at the same time. There are many aspects of it that draw people in, and not everyone collects cards for the same reason. So what (with deference to Miles Davis).

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03-27-2007, 10:24 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI prefer the sax to the trumpet, so I'll defer to Coltrane and Rollins. It's about time we started talking about music in this thread. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -Al

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03-27-2007, 10:31 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn Coltrane plays with Miles on "So What." You can check it out on youtube. Just type in "Miles Davis So What" and you will see Miles and Trane trading off solos. Must see video!!

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03-27-2007, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmHere is the basic riff. It is the two chords at the end of each phrase that, when played on the piano or by harmonized brass instruments, are suggestive of a person saying the words "so what," perhaps in a slightly derogatory manner: <img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/so_what.gif">

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03-27-2007, 10:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateEric- I can't read music so I am going to have to take your word on this one. "Kind of Blue" is the greatest selling jazz album in history and it was done I believe in one take without rehearsal! Musicians were just given a general idea of what to play and the rest was improvised on the spot.

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03-27-2007, 10:36 AM

Posted By: peter chaoIt would be great to have Stevie Wonder chime in on the piano. Peter

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03-27-2007, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Eric BrehmStevie would have done a good job, although jazz wasn't really his bag. The piano on the original recording was played by the late great Bill Evans.

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03-27-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBill Evans also wrote the wonderful liner notes for the album, about Japanese art on parchment, comparing it to the process of musical innovation.

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03-27-2007, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliCan't talk about jazz piano - even just three posts - without mentioning Monk. Monk. -Al

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03-27-2007, 11:25 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMonk may be my favorite of all, both for his eccentric personality and style of playing. He was a troubled genius who stopped playing in the last decade of his life for no other reason than he no longer wished to play.

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03-27-2007, 11:27 AM

Posted By: Max WederSome threads here definitely require Phillip Glass

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03-27-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezThe sounds should have high jacked this thread right after it was started. I can't play a note of music, but I've always loved the sounds. In one of my former lives, I had the great pleasure and honor to be involved with two Duke Ellington productions. His first "Sacred Concert" (Dec. 26 1965) in NYC, and his "Sold on Soul" AKA a "Salute to the Duke" (Feb. 23 1970) at Madison Square Garden. The Salute to the Duke gig, would have blown your mind. The master of ceremonies: Sammy Davis Junior. Louis Armstrong. Richie Havens. Peggy Lee. Les MC Cann Trio. The Dance Theatre of Harlem. Irene Cara. Leslie Uggams. Stevie Wonder. Ray Charles. Joyce Bryant. The Modern Jazz Quartet. Roberta Flack. The Clark Terry Orchestra. B B King. Jimmy Rushing. Eubie Blake. Noble Sissle. Joya Sherril, with the Duke Ellington band. This is not from memory, ... I cheated. I'm looking at my old work sheet. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Needless to say, Mad. Sqr. Garden was the place to be that night. Takin off now, gotta catch the "A" train.

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03-27-2007, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliThe Constitution, jazz, and baseball. -Al

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03-27-2007, 01:16 PM

Posted By: peter chaoI love the sound of jazz as the sun goes down. Even hard-core collectors need to kick back once in a while. Peter

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03-27-2007, 01:19 PM

Posted By: Eric BrehmYes, jazz music, like baseball, is something America can claim as its very own invention. A wedding of African musical sense and European instruments that could only have happened here.

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04-04-2007, 01:15 PM

Posted By: peter chaoOkay Guys, I'm sure that a forum member would know this. Which year did they first play, "Take Me Out to The Ballgame." I have no idea that's why I'm asking you guys. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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04-04-2007, 01:17 PM

Posted By: Dave F<a href="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/poetry/po_stmo.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-almanac.com/poetry/po_stmo.shtml</a>

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04-04-2007, 01:26 PM

Posted By: peter chaoDave, 1908. Thanks. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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04-04-2007, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Joe PelaezJust trying to help Peter. Lyle ... Where are you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-05-2007, 12:46 PM

Posted By: peter chaoYou Cub haters out there, it's all a conspiracy. Well...I'll have you know the Cubs are only 1 1/2 games out of first place. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

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04-06-2007, 02:50 AM

Posted By: Joe PelaezJust tryin to help Peter. Lyle, ... whhhere the hell are you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>