Alterations - Same subject different thread (by accident) [Archive]

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03-20-2007, 12:47 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Kevin- I'm sure it is possible for many altered cards to go undetected, but you make it seem like nearly every card out there is tampered with. Collectors might as well just throw in the towel. Frankly, I don't think it's true." _____________ I am a collector first and deep commitment the hobby. Most cards are not altered and reside in the correct holders if graded. Based on experience I estimate about 15% in slabs have been altered. Don't throw in the towel but do have a general idea what your getting for your buck. The end is not near but the subject is as important as any other. Many have a specific specialty; mine just happens to be identifying alterations and is what I can offer the hobby and (maybe) this forum. Before and after pics are appropriate for the alterations I've been showing. Details and more targeted step by step explanations could only hurt the hobby in an open forum...sorry. Not bragging at all, "awareness" is what I am offering at this time. As for Jim, I've only met him briefly once. Sure, we will talk soon in detail but at least his comments on this subject are accepted for what they are. Not saying I'm a card doctor regardless of the reason, would be hypocritical, it's the unfortunate part of getting to know the subject at hand. It would be like WonkaTicket stating he's is not confrontational <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. ____________ "Kevin's 2005 SMR article about 1991 Desert Shield forgeries is quite impressive. It would be even more impressive if all of the info had not already been published a decade earlier in Beckett. What we have here is a hobby novice playing with bleach and trying to talk a big game. Only a buffoon like Crandall would take this Saucier clown seriously." Frank Alston, that entire post was simply uncalled for. I'm embarrassed for you and feel it's a shame you find the need to express those horrid comments in writing. Adam Smith you are not far behind. I'm no big shot and don't plan on being one. Both of you are obviously the bigger men...literally. That SMR article was a request by PSA to go beyond what had been written in Beckett and reintroduce the subject to new collectors. Both are different. Dare I say I've written several others? Please show us what either of you have written so that we may all enjoy the benefits of your educational topics. I'm certain we will not be disappointed. ___________ "I'd also really like to hear him ring in on some of these misprints that show up on ebay or even here, and let people know if he thinks they are natural misprints or doctored, and why." This is exactly what I can do and would be more than happy to share what little I know. In person, I can go into more detail. Poor King (cmoking) once got a 2-hour class on card trimming. Have a good evening! Kevin Saucier

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03-20-2007, 01:55 AM

Posted By: JohnKevin, My apologies, I’m really not trying to be confrontational at all. Its just it seems every week for the past months we have been presented with lots of speculation and innuendo about the hobby being destroyed, trimmed altered etc. Were all a bit tired of the constant conspiracy theory stuff, or at least I am. While most of this stuff is all news worthy, most of it if not all of the things that are brought to light are done so in a very cloak and dagger manner with very little fact or proof behind them. This makes it hard to believe or do anything about it. Also certain individuals have made it their personal soapbox agenda, which further ruined any good intentions behind the cause of cleaning up our beloved hobby. I understand all to well the fact it wouldn’t be prudent to go into step by step detail on altered cards and how there done. I also appreciate your inputs on bad cards being highlighted by yourself. But unless your superman, you cant be with all of us all the time. How then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of? What things should we be on the lookout for? What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards? Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards? Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies? These are just some of the things others and I are asking for your input on. If you can’t give us guidance on some of the above, and all we can talk about are broad statements and photos, all you have succeeded in doing is making collectors paranoid. Just one collector’s opinion. Balls in your court Kevin.....

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03-20-2007, 05:15 AM

Posted By: barrysloateKevin- to continue what John said I think the responsible approach is not to only post about potential card alterations and nothing else. Your last post was more balanced, and you agree that most cards out there are good, and that some aren't. Likewise, we agree it is possible to alter cards in many ways that are very difficult to detect. But no reason to scare the bejesus out of everyone with every post.

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03-20-2007, 05:49 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWell said Kevin--we will see who apologizes and who is ready to listen. Barry, Noone said everything in and out of slabs is altered--noone knows. 15% is probably a good guess. My point in asking about your auction is you don't really know what has been trimmed/reshaped etc. If as Kevin said these guys and I think Kevin is saying himself(but only for fun and not for resale). I think you are right on one score Barry and that our only hope lies with the grading companies. Maybe they need to hire a card doctor as I think Kevin believes so he can show them how doctors get doctored cards by the grading companies.

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03-20-2007, 07:48 AM

Posted By: leonDo you think the 15% figure you used is across the board. I would argue that the percentage would go up for higher graded cards than lower graded ones, as that is where more money is. We all know about the price of T206 commons, for example. A 5 might be $75 and an 8 might be $3,000......if I get that little teeny corner wear out of one corner my $75 turns into $3000.....if I have a vg card and I get the little corner wear out of a corner it becomes a vg-ex (4) and I have made $25. It seems very simple that higher end cards (especially holdered ones) would have more problems....or am I off base? Kindest regards and thanks for hanging in there with us..Hopefully we can meet someday.....leon

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03-20-2007, 08:20 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I agree that it is possible one or more cards in my auction have been touched up and tampered with. However, if I can't detect, and neither can the grading services, and the cards get graded anyway, what am I supposed to do? Be suspicious of every card ever consigned to me? Close down the auction because every card is a potential time bomb? At some point I have to just say here is the auction, and that's it. People are free to make their own decisions at that point. At least I go to the trouble of getting nearly every card graded. That is the best I can do.

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03-20-2007, 08:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I agree with what you say and despite others efforts to put words in my mouth I believe you are a 100% honest guy. I also think its likely that you have cards in your auction that have been tampered with and the buyers of your cards won't be able to tell. Very few people could--maybe Baker, Grade, Rez--perhaps Kevin--and almost certainly the two or three most famous doctors. What should you do?--nothing--have your auction. You are to be commended for having everything graded.

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03-20-2007, 08:35 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI appreciate what you are saying with one exception: It is likely that I have cards in my auction that have been tampered with. How do you know? Would you be able to identify them for me? Because if you can, I would like to withdraw them and return them to my consignors (or if they are mine relist them on ebay as "despite being graded, these cards are altered.")

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03-20-2007, 08:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I know you would and it speaks to your tremendous character but the truth is that noone on this board could identify them--the expertise is not there. Perhaps Kevin could (out of the holder) but only he could answer that. Jim

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03-20-2007, 10:15 AM

Posted By: JohnJim, “the truth is that no one on this board could identify them--the expertise is not there.” And Jim you know this how??? There are some pretty bright people here Jim, perhaps the reason they/we beat you up is that you constantly insult them in your underhand way. Also do you make this stuff up as you go along, do you have any proof to have of the accusations/innuendos you make??? “I also think its likely that you have cards in your auction that have been tampered with and the buyers of your cards won't be able to tell.” Yeah Barry’s auction most likely does, according to you everything has been tampered with, how could Barry have any cards that aren’t???? As for Kevin he should be wearing a cape if I meet him, from the way it sounds he’s the only one who can help us all?? He has the floor and I'm interested in his responses and ideas. Perhaps when he comes back you can let him run the floor, vs. turning it into the Crandell show. We’ve all seen it at this point Jim nothing personal. You know Jim; I couldn’t help notice on the dinner thread you had a rough agenda, perhaps you can add balloon animals and pratfalls to the list? I feel clowns should always get back to their roots. Yep I attacked you there Jim, time to put on your whoa as me show. I do so enjoy them, although my wife says I’m getting blood all over the good furniture by reading them. I feel the only good way to get an idea of Crandell’s suffering at the hands of us Net 54 heathens is by self mortification, well better go strap on my ol’ trusty cilice. You know Jim if I didn’t already know you would love the attention way too much, I would have T-shirts made for all the members here for the National that say “I attacked poor innocent Jim Crandell. And all I got was this lousy T-Shirt!” Barry, now that Jim has personally vouched for you character I feel a bit more comfortable bidding in your auction…. although it is a bit on the armpit side for my tastes. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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03-20-2007, 10:34 AM

Posted By: DaveKevin should probably elaborate on some of the techniques card doctors use to modify and shape tobacco cards if he is as familiar with them as he says. I see no reason to continually post cryptic messages alluding to card altering. It does nothing more than inflame peoples tempers and make the poster ( in this case Kevin) look suspiciously like a crook. i perform my own conservation work on cards I own, and just about anyone can learn quite a bit by visitng a local museum. Heck you can even go to the Library of Congresses website and they cover some basic conservation techniques. Notice I use the word conservation because I don't believe it is the same as card doctoring. Those of you who don't think you can spot fakes well ought to give yourself a liitle more credit. I believe Leon stated earlier at some point that the financial investment and subsequent gain to be had by doctoring mid-grade and low grade cards is just not there, and he is right. you would have to have to mass produce doctored cards in these grades to make any money at all. My opinion is that the cards that are near mint or higher are the ones that should be suspect. I don't buy cards in those grades at all anymore. I did back in the late 80's from known and trusted collectors or dealers that were local to me. Frankly, if Kevin is trying to help the hobby or collectors on this board he ought to disclose everything he knows to be true about the docotring "industry". Some may not like that idea , but somebody sometime has to shine some light down in this sewer. otherwise, I would say keep your comments to yourself, I don't want to read about how good someone thinks he is at faking other people out anymore. it's depressing for collectors who just like to have fun and collect, and don't invest for future profits.

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03-20-2007, 10:40 AM

Posted By: MikeJim, since we haven't met, and never will, nor will you meet most of us on here, it is somewhat presumptuous of you to assume that we are incapable of identifying altered or manicured cards. I fly under the radar, always have, and always will. But do know how that makes you appear, and sound ? I own thousands of cards. Have been in the hobby for 47 years. So please don't lump us all in the same category. I am quite comfortable with my abilities.

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03-20-2007, 11:07 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellMike, I say this only because restoration techniques have advance so significantly in recent years and even the best graders are having a lot of trouble identifying them. If you are on top of all this then I take it back. Dave, I think Kevin is writing a book. It is depressing but hopefully out of this will come a solution. John, You are an unusual guy to say the least--you say you want to be part of a solution and I did everything possible to arrange the dinner so you can attend but you would rather take potshots at me from outside. By all means continue if it makes you happy.

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03-20-2007, 11:31 AM

Posted By: JohnJim, “You are an unusual guy to say the least--you say you want to be part of a solution and I did everything possible to arrange the dinner so you can attend but you would rather take potshots at me from outside. By all means continue if it makes you happy.” It is true I did at first want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I also thought you had some good points regarding hobby issues. I also offered to attend this so-called dinner/pizza party. I unfortunately was called out of town on business, which now I think was a blessing in disguise. Not only do I think the meeting would have been for the most part a waste of time, but after watching you conduct yourself on the board the next few weeks after this meeting. I was personally glad I was not associated with you and your actions in any way. I’ve said it before Jim and I’ll say it again, if this hobby needs cleaning up and it needs this so called front man to head the project. You are the last person to do the job; nobody including me can take you seriously at this point. You and your attitude alone have alienated you, you have no one but yourself to blame for the “potshots”. Its all most any of us can do when it comes to you Jim. Having an adult conversation with an antagonistic self-centered child such as yourself frankly is a waste of time and energy. As long as you continue to make underhanded comments towards everyone and play the martyr expect what you get, and don’t be so surprised all the time. Lets also not play stupid here ok? You know why you get picked on, and you continue to come here every few days and fan the flames to continue and or prolong your pathetic little show. I don’t hate you Jim, if anything I pity you. I hope you continue to get the attention you so badly crave, it really seems at this point like you need it.

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03-20-2007, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Kevin"Do you think the 15% figure you used is across the board." Based only on what I've inspected, 15%-20% is about the average across the board. High end as well as low. If you are looking for posts on other subjects there are many experts here that do far better than I could ever dream of. "Perhaps Kevin could (out of the holder) but only he could answer that." Out of the holder is best by far but in the holder is what I examine most. It's sometimes a tough call with tight fitting cards. So far so good though. "he ought to disclose everything he knows to be true about the doctoring "industry"." Yeah right, that's not gonna' happen. Conservation work..good one. I regress I am a conservationist! I know nothing about the doctoring "industry." Barry, your auctions are perfect. Has there been conservation work done to those cards...yes, no, maybe? They would need to be inspected and not a grading company (under one minute) inspection. Getting cards graded at least eliminates most of the worry and keeps it above suspicion. I think that's the best you can do. Actually what else could you do? John, as mentioned before, most grading companies could care less. I do tell everything to a single top-level grader plus give him "the scary cards" for the company archives. They are very appreciative and I am glad to help. When I discover something new, he is the first (and only) to know the step-by-step process. Let's face it most of you already know what to look for and can spot basic alterations. On the tougher stuff, I just render an opinion based on experience and grouping together objective findings, however subtle. With the quality conservation work (like that?) being done, much of the identification is personal perception based on the knowledge level of the person examining the card. I am forever a student of the hobby...one can never learn too much. Kevin

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03-20-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellNo problem John. You are not interested in hobby issues--do whatever you like. I never volunteered to lead--no time--but I will try to contribute and out of this have come a few who also want to contribute. other than that-carry on--not going to stoop to your level.

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03-20-2007, 11:55 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellGreat points Kevin!! I particularly agree with the 15% altered--high, medium or low. People on here seem to think they are immune from this because they do not collect high grade cards when the problem is just as acute in mid-grade and low-grade. Maybe now that you are saying it instead of me, they will listen? Ha! Its nice that you are sharing your work with the best grader in the hobby--of course I know who you are talking about. I am not surprised to hear that he is very open as I consider him to be an extremely knowledgeable guy and a good friend. I know that you will not pass on the real juicy parts of what you have learned to this board or your book for that matter but I would urge you nto pass along as much as you can to all collectors in a public forum. You are right--at the most sophisticated end collectors can do nothing and graders are not keeping up--for the high end, medium grade and low end. I have a call into you--thanks for sharing. Jim

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03-20-2007, 12:10 PM

Posted By: JohnThanks Kevin, for your input and response. “Let's face it most of you already know what to look for and can spot basic alterations.” This may not be true I’m sure all of us would appreciate a rough refresher course, and perhaps there are some here that would find the info useful. Perhaps we can form a rough list of questions you could answer, along the lines of the basic ones I posted. Kevin do you have anything or care to add any input on these questions. If not that’s fine, just looking to learn from you as we have been told you are wealth of knowledge. And with you last response while appreciated it really hasn’t taught me anything I didn’t already kind of know. Kevin…. How then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of? What things should we be on the lookout for? What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards? Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards? Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies?

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03-20-2007, 12:30 PM

Posted By: JohnJim, your right I have no love for this hobby, I don’t care as much as YOU do. I haven’t been collecting these cards since I was 10yrs old, I didn’t spend days dreaming on page 93 of the #3 Beckett price guide as a kid. I didn’t spend almost every waking hour pouring through antique shops and flea markets for cards as a kid. Your absolutely right Jim, I hope this hobby goes down the drains; it’s my master plan. I have no love or passion about this crap! You know something Jim, go pound sand. I wish I had a picture of you so I could really STOOP to bum you out. Since I don’t and you act like a baby and are the true definition of an Internet troll. This pic will have to do. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/mrbean_baby1.jpg"> And look Jim; you got more attention…yeah Jim! Perhaps you can go have that daily Affirmation now. “Because I’m good enough, and gosh darn it people like me!” Who's taking the 3 O'clock feeding anyway...Leon, Barry, Joe anyone???

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03-20-2007, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Dave ....by the way there is a difference between conservation work , and doctoring. Perhaps the only nuance being hypothetical profits that can be made from the latter. So now there is to be a book published about this subject by Kevin ? What's new here....? Nothing...guys who claim to have the knowledge and expertise Kevin does have been taking advantage of baseball card collectors since I was a kid. I didn't think it was a big deal back then when I heard people talking about the re-colored borders on some 70's Topps cards. If Kevin is not willing to disclose any of the information he has gleened in his years of experience then once again I would ask...."why bother posting" human nature being what it is, after such posts people will be curious and will want more facts. Accusations start flying around, and name calling begins. if you are writing a book...you have many of us interested now after your postings, and replies to subsequent posts. I look forward to reading the book that you are writing Kevin, can you give this audience a time frame on when it will be published ? by the way, one way to conserve your tobacco cards for future viewing pleasure is to clean any and all tobacco or nicotine type staining off of them. Every Polar Bear card I own has been soaked in OXY clean and gently cleaned with cotton swabs or sponge swabs; and then has been rinsed in distilled water.It makes a big difference believe me. I do not consider this cleaning, "card doctoring" as PSA graded all of the cards I have sent them that have had this done to them.

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03-20-2007, 12:40 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, You are the one that is acting like a child here--look at you--how ridiculous--grow up.

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03-20-2007, 12:41 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...a T-shirt?

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03-20-2007, 12:42 PM

Posted By: KevinHiding in plain sight alteration. As you are aware a pinhole, regardless of he card condition, will be given a grade of 1. In the card below a tack was placed through the card and twisted, opening up a two nice sized holes. Filler was used as well as several other techniques and steps to both fill the holes and disguise their existence. Because the holes were filled in a colored area, a heavy scuff was created to hide the filler. The alteration is now hiding behind another alteration. The back is completely undetectable...really. I know you may think "there are the holes" but the indents are not them <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. When looking for a filled hole use a halogen light as well as a fluorescent black-light (50+ watts) to pick up on any starches or bonding compounds used in the mix. Also look for light that may shine through the now thinned cardstock area. When a hole is filled is not uncommon to have one side look great and the other needing work. It’s very difficult to make both sides look perfect. Don’t always think that worn, scuffed or other flaws are there by accident. It’s always an area of concern. This card was shown to two graders, one "very well known." The quality of work was such that the alteration within the alteration was not detectible and it also remained opaque. As told...it would have received a grade of 2 or 3. Not much but enough to raise the value considerably if this was an ultra high-end card. <img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/pinhole.jpg"> Now take an alterated card, put it in the hands of a $10 hr post-teen with little or no experience and an under-a-minute per card time frame to work and you have yourself a new business. Enjoy! Kevin Saucier

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03-20-2007, 12:43 PM

Posted By: ChadJust Holy Toledo. I'm staying on Mr. Wonka's good side. That is all. --Chad

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03-20-2007, 12:47 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellT206, Hope yoy saw Kevin's staement that the percentage of alteration is consistent among grades(high, medium,low)

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03-20-2007, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Too bad the current administration didn't utilize such dogged enthusiasm in finding WMD's as we are, in trying to find altered cards.

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03-20-2007, 12:54 PM

Posted By: John<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/i2.jpg"> Dave good stuff on that Oxy Clean, I wish I would have known that I used Orange Glo and all my cards shine way too much and are bit stained, but they do have a pleasant orange smell. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/101794_front200.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/zeenut_122.jpg">

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03-20-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: DaveJim....please let Kevin stand behind his own statements. I don't think anyone needs you massaging his shoulders. Kevin is a big boy. Unless he signs your checks how about giving it a rest.

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03-20-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...and I stand by my allegiance to SGC, including their guarantee. If someone ever finds one of my cards to be altered, SGC will make it right. That's the best anyone can hope for. Given that you only collect PSA 8 cards, I appreciate you standing up for my right to collect unaltered SGC A through 80 graded cards. You are really out to protect us little people.

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03-20-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: JohnKevin, That last post I found very informative, thanks for posting. That kind of post will always be welcomed with open arms. IMO.

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03-20-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Kevin"I do not consider this cleaning, "card doctoring" as PSA graded all of the cards I have sent them that have had this done to them." You have to be kidding? That's called bleaching! Your hypocrisy knows no bounds LOL. I do conservation work as well since I've never made a penny from any altered card..ever. Actually I have lost plenty of money between destructive testing, destroying results, giving them to company archives and creating errors for your enduring comments.

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03-20-2007, 01:01 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThanks T206, I knew you would see the light one day.

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03-20-2007, 02:45 PM

Posted By: Dave"that's called bleaching" only by you apparently

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03-20-2007, 02:45 PM

Posted By: andy beckerkevin, i want to say thanks for the information you have shared with us for the last few weeks. while the information has been a bit disturbing, it is information that needs to see the light of day. so again, THANKS from me personally. regards andy

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03-20-2007, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Richard""that's called bleaching" - only by you apparently" I would call that bleaching as well.

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03-20-2007, 03:02 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzbleaching indeed

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03-20-2007, 03:04 PM

Posted By: jay wolt"Based only on what I've inspected, 15%-20% is about the average across the board. High end as well as low. If you are looking for posts on other subjects there are many experts here that do far better than I could ever dream of." Kevin - Just a bit curious, you're 15% estimate that you give. Is that a broad base of taking a pile of cards at random. Or just the problematic ones that are sent to you're attention. Like the one's King send you for examination based on some doubts he already had? ...jay

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03-20-2007, 07:33 PM

Posted By: JohnKevin, All joking aside I would like when you get a chance some input on the questions I've posted. I'm following the consensus here that you’re a wealth of knowledge. Not asking you to prove it or anything, just curious if you could shed some light on the topics you’ve roughly brought up. Anxiously waiting your input. As others are....

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03-20-2007, 10:44 PM

Posted By: KevinHow then do you suggest we protect ourselves from this epidemic you speak of? No epidemic but it is getting worse. IMO there is just a lack of qualified graders and the volume of cards being graded is too high. It's a weak link that is being taken advantage of. I now consider raw cards a high risk to purchse. I dunno how to fix it. What things should we be on the lookout for? Wow, there are many red flags. Cardstock that is too white or too dark is the first thing that catches my eye. Many times alterations are done to hide other alterations. What are the common tell tale signs of altered cards? Anything in a PRO or CSA holder. I'm also leary of some auction houses...too much money involved. Corruption and money are common denominators. Are there things we can do to help us spot altered cards? For now, take all the information written about alterations (tid bits from here and there) print them out and make a notebook. You would be surprised on what you could learn when this information is in a common place. Have you taken steps to offer your services to grading companies? I have. PSA pretty much ignores the subject, besides I don't think they can afford me LOL. SGC probably doesn't need much assistance at the moment. Mike Baker soaks it up like a sponge and I learn from him as well. Helps that I live in SoCal too. Maybe not all the asnwers you were looking for but I didn't want to leave you hanging. _________________ Jay you are somewhat correct about that 15% thing. I posted about it on another thread. Al, forgot to mention....awesome magazine last month. Your work just keeps getting better.

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03-20-2007, 11:26 PM

Posted By: JohnKevin, Thanks for responding and not leaving me hanging etc. I do appreciate the response, truly do. At the risk of sounding ungrateful, I have to say your answers seem to be a bit lack luster, or seem to have precious meat on the bone if you will. Cardstock too white or too dark, PRO/CSA most likely trimmed, print tid bits and make a notebook etc. All of those answers yet again seem very vague and broad to say the least. I can only assume or draw conclusions to why this might be. 1.)The obvious it’s late your tired and don’t want to type a long drawn out response, fair and rightfully so. 2.)You somehow feel divulging any details will unleash armature card doctors on the hobby in someway shape or form. 3.)You don’t want to give out all of your juicy information in a free forum when there is a book in the works, which I assume is book for profit not non-profit. Fair and just business decision. I’m reading your posts. I’m even reading the posts of people posting about your posts and how knowledgeable and capable you are regarding the topics at hand. So here’s my problem. And there’s a very good chance I’m in the minority here but I don’t seem to be getting much out of them. I mean I get the basic premises behind the posts, but I don’t find myself learning anything to better my hobby experience or protect me from uneducated mistakes. Short of there are crooks who will try and take your money by using unscrupulous methods, which I think I and others are completely aware of. Kevin, I don’t doubt your knowledge or your sincerity please I hope you understand that. It’s also not really complaint per say, I’m more just wondering if this is ever going to develop beyond what’s currently transpiring?? Perhaps into something truly educational for us all?

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03-20-2007, 11:34 PM

Posted By: George DreherI agree that anything in a PRO holder is probably a piece of garbage, but CSA holders graded during the company's first couple of years have crossed over nicely for me. They have the same grading scale as ASA and the PQ grades crossover to the same number at PSA. Anything in a CSA holder from 1998 onward is questionable.

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03-21-2007, 01:04 AM

Posted By: Dazed Any chance of creating a poison pill here? Already I realise I would never consider buying a Pre-War card in NM or higher no matter what holder it's in. I find myself looking back at my old auction catalogues and seeing wavy borders and fish-hook corners on all those Mint 9 beauties. It's maddening! I have to believe that the PSA 8 Wagner has perfect vintage looking edges whether they're trimmed or not. Someone's got to say it - what if it really is possible to trim a card in such a way that it's impossible to determine when it was done? Would that really surprise any of us? Hell, we can map the human genetic code! I remember someone saying long ago, that when there is enough money in forged or altered sports memorabilia, it may attract the attention of the really master criminal. If PSA is trying to downplay this, maybe thay aren't so dumb after all. Mr. Crandell, - is crusading against this supposed to protect what you have in your collection? Fifty years from now your children may be saying "Dad sure collected a lot of plastic crap!" Yours truly, Dazed & Confused

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03-21-2007, 05:05 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDazed, No--my interests bwould be best served if I was just quiet about it. It is interesting that everyone tries to ascribe an ulterior motive other than doing something for the hobby. Like everyone, I think the vast majority of cards I own are legit--but the law of averages would say that I own some altered cards-- Jim

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03-21-2007, 07:10 AM

Posted By: T206Collector....even Kevin agrees that PSA "ignores the subject" while SGC "doesn't need much assistance at the moment." If you would just have all of your cards reviewed by SGC, you could ferret out many of those alterations.

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03-21-2007, 07:19 AM

Posted By: JimCrandelli am glad he used Baker's name. Mike is not only the best grader in the hobby but he is open and willing to learn....and Kevin has plenty to teach--may have some further observations after I speak with Dr. Kevin(as he calls himself) today.

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03-21-2007, 08:40 AM

Posted By: Dave points posted above. I think the reason we don't get any detailed information is probably #3. Why give it away for free when you can float it out there on this forum and get an idea of how much $$ can be made by writing a book about the subject. I eagerly await this tome's publication Kevin !! If it is simialr to your articles then it should be quite a read indeed.

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03-21-2007, 08:51 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, Kevin will not be disclosing the real inside stuff of what he knows in the book either. Jim

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03-21-2007, 08:54 AM

Posted By: DaveAs long as you know the "real inside stuff". That's all that matters Crandell.

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03-21-2007, 09:00 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJust repeating what he already said buddy.

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03-21-2007, 09:21 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf Kevin is writing a book why would he leave out the best stuff? Isn't that the point of a research book, to be an exhaustive study on a particular topic. Why would I want to read it if I thought the most important points were intentionally omitted?

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03-21-2007, 09:51 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorI hope Kevin agrees to allow Jim to write the foreword.

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03-21-2007, 09:53 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusGoing beyond the issue of alteration, something this Board has discussed numerous times in various threads, what I fear perhaps even more is out and out counterfeiting, which I think we would be naive to feel can/will not happen. This is something I have discussed since the mid-80s, when card prices were considerably lower. I don't think it bears mentioning that 20+ years later, with card prices astronomically higher, the threat is greater. Why am I so concerned about this? The history of the human race tells us that where there is an economic incentive to make a dishonest buck, somebody out there will try to do it. I have no doubt that while I am writing this post somebody is thinking how to make fake plates, use papers and inks that will pass forensic scrutiny, and produce counterfeit T206s that will look (even down to the microscopic dot matrix pattern) as good as the real ones. With gem mint commons going for $10k and HOFers for potentially 6 figures, the economic incentive is certainly there. Or what about cards where excellent condition will fetch well into six figures? A counterfeiter need not produce 9s and 10s to make a killing. So what do we do about this? In my view we start with awareness. Second, since undoubtedly a counterfeiter, if going to the trouble to counterfeit the cards, would also take the trouble to counterfeit grading company holders to insert the cards into, grading companies should keep good records of the serial numbers on their holders and be willing to confirm to potential purchasers that the serial number in fact matches the player, issue and condition of the card. Third, we should place extra importance on provenance. Just being able to document that a particular card was in somebody's collection, say, in 1980 would be of tremendous comfort since the risk of counterfeiting was presumably less then. By making this post I wish to stress that I'm not a doomsayer predicating the collapse of the hobby. I love collecting and in no way feel this threat means all are cards about to become worthless, or indeed will suffer any depreciation in value. I just don't want people to become complacent that a skilled counterfeiter cannot produce cards that as a practical matter could pass muster with even the most skilled experts.

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03-21-2007, 10:56 AM

Posted By: JohnDave, I hope were both wrong, I hope this wasn’t some elaborate marketing ploy to pimp a future book. We get pissed at people who promote auctions on the main forum as well as business’s I would feel a book would be no exception. Like I said I hope this is not the case. Crandell are you Kevin’s publicity agent? If not then how about sitting on your hands and letting Kevin type his own answers and responses?

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03-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Posted By: only_child"I’m more just wondering if this is ever going to develop beyond what’s currently transpiring?? Perhaps into something truly educational for us all?" Actually #’s 1 and 2 are very close. The subject of card alterations is very broad and covers a lot of territory. I find it exhausting to write posts all day, besides I have a family, a job, some medical issues, a Titanic collection business (shameless plug TitanicItems.com), and examine and/or experiment with cards almost every day. John your questions are great and very valid. It’s just tough to respond so quickly with so much info. Also more informed posts lead to more questions. I’m trying my best! They will come. I also need to be very careful, it freaks me out that some punk will view this information as inspirational and use it as a stepping stone. Writing a book on this subject is not as easy as it sounds, plus I consider myself the village idiot and no writer. I will go into details and give plenty of pics on what to look for. I want to keep it like a pocket guide so that collectors can bring it with them to shows and stores. I’m hoping for under 100 pages. Damn, the first 20 pages is on trimming alone though. I'm debating about even finishing it or writing it at all. _________ “what if it really is possible to trim a card in such a way that it's impossible to determine when it was done?” Hate to bum you out but it can be done. Matter of fact, I just did it the other day in front of a grader to show him how it’s done. I call it untrimming or undoctoring (doctoring a doctored card). It’s a trick (dare I call it a skill?) all to itself in alterations. _________ "even Kevin agrees that PSA "ignores the subject" while SGC "doesn't need much assistance at the moment." If you would just have all of your cards reviewed by SGC, you could ferret out many of those alterations." No comment but that really was not what was implied. _________ "Mike is not only the best grader in the hobby but he is open and willing to learn....and Kevin has plenty to teach--may have some further observations after I speak with Dr. Kevin(as he calls himself)" I consider Mike a good friend and has a wealth of information he shares freely. Sure, I show him all the techniques but in reality I learn from him. Others may not agree but I feel he one most "trusted professionals" in the hobby. Not sure if I ever called myself Dr. Kevin, although I have been called "doc" but only because I was a firefighter/paramedic. ___________ "Why give it away for free when you can float it out there on this forum and get an idea of how much $$ can be made by writing a book about the subject." You're thinking with your wallet LOL. Let's be realistic. If I crossed over to the dark side, I could make more money from doctoring just a few cards....hell, one card.

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03-21-2007, 11:44 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, I will do what I want--how about shutting up for once.

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03-21-2007, 11:54 AM

Posted By: MarkNow one can't even post on n54 without risk of becoming a photoshop victim. What a joke.

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03-21-2007, 11:59 AM

Posted By: BobWay, way up on this thread Leon asked a question and posed an opinion which I agree totally with. I have a hard time believing card doctors bother with making a gd/vg card vg when they could take an ex card and turn it in to a nrmt card. The return on investment is much, much greater on the higher graded cards. Kevin, when you mention 15% of slabbed cards are altered, I don't doubt your estimate but I believe the great majority of these altered cards are in the exmt to nrmt grades, that's where the real money is.

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03-21-2007, 12:04 PM

Posted By: John”I will do what I want--how about shutting up for once.” Ooohhhhhhh, uh oh does this mean we fight on the playground after school Jim? Or are you more of the type to take your ball and go home??? “Now one can't even post on n54 without risk of becoming a photoshop victim. What a joke.” Marcus you’re absolutely right! I will write a formal letter of apology to Rowan Atkinson today. I’m sure he doesn’t want to be associated with Crandell either. Good point Marcus thanks.

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03-21-2007, 12:08 PM

Posted By: JoannRowan Atkinson! That's who it is. It was driving me crazy. J

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03-21-2007, 12:27 PM

Posted By: only_childFrom the other thread: <"15% of all slabbed cards are altered? Nah. I ain't buyin it ... with all due respect Kevin." You're right, me neither. Let me restate; 15% of vintage cards that I have inspected (which is quite a few). Wouldn't make much sense considering all the cards from, let say, 1975 on up that are in slabs.> True - most of the cards I look at are ex-nrmt/mt. There are high-value exceptions though.

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03-21-2007, 12:27 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI might be, but Kevin you have definitely peaked my interest. Frankly, I've been interested in this subject since I saw my first fake T206 proof that was supposedly done by using a hardware store deck cleaning product....that Oaxacilic acid or whatever it's called just wiped away the ink like nothing on that card. Had I not been told it was a phoney I would have believed it to be a blank back T206. I imagine that writing a conventional style book would not be profitable for you , and would probably take too much time. Maybe a series of internet articles or perhaps a cd-rom with some of your findings and experiments , etc... might be the way to go. I'd pay you for something like that, and I only vaguely know of your reputation.

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03-21-2007, 12:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWonka, Peter Chao made an excellent point--stop arguing. I have no reason in the world to ever speak to you. Why don't you do the same. All I am doing is responding to your childish taunts. Noone exzcept you and a couple of like-minded posters likes all the bickering. You want to continue to attack me I will defend myself but I think all but a handful would agree the board would be a better place without all the fighting.

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03-21-2007, 12:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYes Jim- the board would be a better place without all this fighting...and funny thing, every time there is a fight you seem to be in the middle of it. I know you claim you are just defending yourself but nonetheless a day doesn't go by that you are not in the middle of a fight. And I am getting tired of it,and I think if it continues I will be taking a break from the board (that's not a news flash, just a passing thought).

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03-21-2007, 12:46 PM

Posted By: BobBarry- although I have done the same thing before (vacation from the board), I would really miss your posts. Maybe you could just skip over the threads that you find inane or annoying and just read and answer the others. tbob

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03-21-2007, 12:49 PM

Posted By: leonI posted the new thread about halting the personal attacks...that is the timeline "line in the sand"....check the time stamp on it. Personal attacks and so forth after that will magically disappear.....the time has come.....sorry it had to be this way but I too have had enough....(actually I could have let it go but a large number of members want it stopped so, so be it)....regards

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03-21-2007, 12:51 PM

Posted By: only_childFrankly, I've been interested in this subject since I saw my first fake T206 proof. You probably didn't miss the T206 blanks shown? The "Toront" and "Shappe" made errors I consider my best work. Not easy to do but completely undectible. OK..now I'm bragging LOL!!

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03-21-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBob- thanks for the support, and with Leon's new edict, perhaps we will return to a little civility. I really do enjoy reading and posting and I don't want to leave, but sometimes I do reach my saturation point. Thanks again <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-21-2007, 12:57 PM

Posted By: ChadThey got especially bad in the Lipset thread. But what, exactly, constitutes an attack. Because let's face it, some people come onto the Board stomping on toes left and right and, for whatever cognitive reason, have no idea that they're doing it. I say we take the New Yorker approach and just pretend the crazies aren't around. Don't make eye contact, people! By the way, this stuff about altering and forging is exactly the kind of good info that makes this site quality stuff. --Chad

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03-21-2007, 01:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellThank you Leon--whew! Great News!

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03-21-2007, 01:08 PM

Posted By: BobSay what you want about John (wonka) but when I got jumped on a few years ago and left the board for a while, John wrote a really nice email to me and made me feel a lot better about things with his advice about ignoring the jerks of the world. I consider him to not only be a friend and good guy but someone who can be informative in his posts and someone who can make sure that people don't get too full of themselves.

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03-21-2007, 01:10 PM

Posted By: ChadLove the photoshop stuff and am always glad when he chimes in on a thread. --Chad

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03-21-2007, 01:10 PM

Posted By: JohnThanks Bob, but I’m still going to have to bid against you on Obaks and PCL stuff. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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03-21-2007, 02:07 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJohn's a decent guy and very funny. His posts are always appreciated either for their humor or information. He is not a problem here. In fact, John, would you like to fly to NYC for the NYC Dinner Thread Dinner II? You and Ted Z would be the honorary guests...

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03-21-2007, 02:29 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethIn my opinion alteration occurs across the spectrum and is not limited to higher grade cards. To be sure, the reward is higher on a per card basis at the higher end, but this is offset I believe by the fact that there are many more cards available in lower grades, plus the fact that it is probably easier to improve a lower grade card than a higher end one, so in the end it balances out.