Highest graded T206's by board members...Total Value (Whew)

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>May be a stupid idea...due to the prior thread of asking to see all the Hof'ers cards board members have I thought I'd go off that with the higest graded example of each..based on what was submitted in that thread. If anyone is intererested and has higher graded cards then the list here by all means jump in and let me know. By the way...only PSA SGC or GAI or BVG please.....no weird defunct company.<br /><br /><br />Here is the list so far.....if it doesn't get updated so be it...still a fine list. (my cards wouldn't be hard to find in higher grades from other board members though)<br /><br /> Baker, Home Run Follow Thru SGC 70<br /> Beckley, Jake Portrait PSA 7<br /> Bender, Chief No Trees PSA 4 <br /> Bender, Chief Trees PSA 3<br /> Bender, Chief Portrait PSA 4<br /> Bresnahan, Roger Portrait SGC 60 & PSA 5<br /> Bresnahan, Roger Batting SGC 70 <br /> Brown, Mordecai Chicago on shirt PSA 6 <br /> Brown, Mordecai Cubs on shirt PSA 6 <br /> Brown, Mordecai Portrait SGC 60<br /> Chance, Frank Batting SGC 96<br /> Chance, Frank Red Portrait PSA 1<br /> Chance, Frank Yellow Portrait PSA 7 <br /> Chesbro, Jack Portrait SGC 50 <br /> Clarke, Fred Batting SGC 40<br /> Clarke, Fred Portrait SGC 50 & PSA 4 <br /> Cobb, Ty Green Portrait SGC 70<br /> Cobb, Ty Red Portrait PSA 4<br /> Cobb, Ty Bat off Shoulder SGC 50 <br /> Cobb, Ty Bat on Shoulder SGC 70<br /> Collins, Eddie Portrait SGC 70 <br /> Collins, Jimmy Portrait SGC 80<br /> Crawford, Sam Throwing SGC 60<br /> Crawford, Sam Batting PSA 8<br /> Davis, George Throwing PSA 7<br /> Duffy, Hugh Batting PSA 5<br /> Evers, Johnny Portrait PSA 6<br /> Evers, Johnny Chicago on shirt SGC 92 <br /> Evers, Johnny Cubs on shirt SGC 40<br /> Flick, Elmer Batting SGC 50<br /> Griffith, Clark Batting SGC 20 <br /> Griffith, Clark Portrait PSA 6<br /> Huggins, Miller Portrait SGC 50<br /> Huggins, Miller Hands to mouth SGC 50 <br /> Jennings, Hughie One Hand Showing PSA 7<br /> Jennings, Hughie Both Hands Showing SGC 60 <br /> Jennings, Hughie Portrait SGC 50 <br /> Johnson, Walter Portrait SGC 60<br /> Johnson, Walter Hands at Chest PSA 6<br /> Joss, Addie Portrait SGC 40<br /> Joss, Addie Pitching PSA 7<br /> Keeler, Willie Portrait SGC 40<br /> Keeler, Willie Batting SGC 50 <br /> Kelley, Joe Batting PSA 4<br /> Lajoie, Napoleon Portrait PSA 6<br /> Lajoie, Napoleon Throwing SGC 60<br /> Lajoie, Napoleon With Bat SGC 60 & PSA 5<br /> Marquard, Rube Portrait SGC 50<br /> Marquard, Rube Follow Through SGC 50<br /> Marquard, Rube Hands at Thighs SGC 50 <br /> Mathewson, Christy Portrait SGC 80<br /> Mathewson, Christy Black cap PSA 6<br /> Mathewson, Christy White cap SGC 60 <br /> McGinnity, Joe Follow Thru SGC 50<br /> McGraw, John Portrait SGC 50 <br /> McGraw, John Portrait w/cap PSA 7<br /> McGraw, John Finger in Air SGC 60 <br /> McGraw, John Glove at Hip SGC 50 <br /> Plank, Eddie Portrait <br /> Speaker, Tris Batting PSA 5<br /> Tinker, Joe Bat off Shoulder SGC 60<br /> Tinker, Joe Bat on Shoulder SGC 50 <br /> Tinker, Joe Hands on Knees SGC 50 <br /> Tinker, Joe Portrait SGC 70<br /> Waddell, Rube Portrait SGC 80<br /> Waddell, Rube Throwing SGC 70 <br /> Wagner, Honus Portrait SGC 10<br /> Wallace, Bobby Portrait SGC 50 <br /> Walsh, Ed Portrait PSA 4<br /> Wheat, Zack Batting PSA 7 <br /> Willis, Vic Portrait SGC 60<br /> Willis, Vic Throwing PSA 5<br /> Willis, Vic Batting PSA 5<br /> Young, Cy Portrait SGC 70<br /> Young, Cy Glove PSA 5<br /> Young, Cy Bare Hand PSA 4 <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Dave, I looked at your list and I have a few graded copies if you want to "replace" raw ones or slightly higher-graded ones on your list. Nothing special or high-grade, I was just looking over the list and noticed a few that I had.<br /><br />I'll post them over in the other thread.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Bresnahan, Roger Portrait SGC 60<br />Bresnahan, Roger Batting SGC 70<br />Brown, Mordecai Portrait SGC 60<br />Chesbro, Jack Portrait SGC 50<br />Clarke, Fred Portrait SGC 50<br />Cobb, Ty Green Portrait SGC 40<br />Cobb, Ty Red Portrait SGC 40<br />Cobb, Ty Bat off Shoulder SGC 50<br />Cobb, Ty Bat on Shoulder SGC 60<br />Collins, Eddie Portrait SGC 70<br />Evers, Johnny Chicago on shirt SGC 60<br />Flick, Elmer Batting SGC 50<br />Huggins, Miller Hands to mouth SGC 50<br />Lajoie, Napoleon Throwing SGC 60<br />Lajoie, Napoleon With Bat SGC 60<br />Marquard, Rube Follow Through SGC 50<br />Mathewson, Christy Portrait SGC 80<br />Mathewson, Christy White cap SGC 60<br />McGraw, John Finger in Air SGC 60<br />McGraw, John Glove at Hip SGC 50<br />Waddell, Rube Portrait SGC 60<br />Waddell, Rube Throwing SGC 70<br />Young, Cy Portrait SGC 40<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>1909 T206 Sweet Cap Home Run Baker follow through SGC 70 <br /> 350-460<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>can you post a scan of your Nap w/bat 60?<br />that is my fave and would love to see a high grade example!<br />

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Surely someone here has a better graded version, but I have a GAI 4.5 Johnson hands-at-chest.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Here are a few:<br /><br />Cobb green SGC 70<br />Cobb bat on SGC 70<br />Cobb bat off SGC 50<br />Cobb red PSA 4<br /><br />Crawford throwing SGC 60<br />Crawford batting SGC 40<br /><br />Jennings both hands SGC 60<br />Jennings one hand SGC 70<br />Jennings Portrait SGC 50<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"we" (my close friend who i collect with & i) just traded a T206 Griffith portrait PSA 9 (1/1) plus another card for a T206 PSA Gem Mint 10 Jim Pastorius.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Wow Michael...too bad I can't include the Griffith since you don't own it now!

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i know...but i would rather have the 10 over the griffith 9 anyday... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p><a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/T206Collector/T206%20Collection/LajoieWithBatSGC60.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i have:<br /><br />Beckley PSA 7<br />Joss, pitching PSA 7

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Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>Here's what I have in the way of T206 HOFers as we speak:<br /><br />Beckley, Jake Portrait PSA 4 Polar Bear<br />Bender, Chief No Trees PSA 4<br />Bresnahan, Roger Portrait PSA 5<br />Brown, Mordecai Cubs on Shirt PSA 4 <br />Chance, Frank Yellow Portrait PSA 6 Old Mill<br />Clarke, Fred Portrait PSA 4<br />Cobb, Ty Green Portrait PSA 4<br />Collins, Eddie Portrait PSA 5<br />Duffy, Hugh Batting PSA 5<br />Evers, Johnny Chicago on shirt PSA 5 Tolstoi<br />Jennings, Hughie One Hand Showing PSA 4 Polar Bear<br />Lajoie, Napoleon Portrait PSA 6<br />Lajoie, Napoleon With Bat PSA 5 Piedmont Factory 42<br />Mathewson, Christy Black cap PSA 5<br />Tinker, Joe Bat off Shoulder PSA 4<br />Willis, Vic Throwing PSA 5<br />Young, Cy Portrait PSA 4<br /><br />Maybe a couple more. Used to have Cobb Red PSA 5 (bought from Steve M.) and Bender Portrait PSA 5. Traded them both to Quan with cash for my E93 Wagner PSA 4. No regrets. I wanted a Honus.<br />

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Posted By: <b>ErikV</b><p><br /> Here's the ones I can top:<br /><br /> Duffy, Hugh Batting GAI 4<br /> Johnson, Walter Portrait PSA 3<br /> Joss, Addie Pitching 3<br /> Speaker, Tris Batting PSA 5<br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Do have the PSA 10 scanned somewhere? Not sure if you posted it somewhere and I missed it or not<br /><br />Excuse me for a while as I try to update...ha ha

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>have not scanned it yet (soon)...<br /><br />we showed the guys at the new york dinner...<br /><br />1 of 13 T206 10's ever graded (out of a total of 70,000)...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but since you've got some blanks and low ones, I'll fill them:<br /><br />Chance, Frank Batting SGC 40<br />Evers, Johnny Cubs on shirt SGC 40<br />Griffith, Clark Batting SGC 20<br />Huggins, Miller Portrait SGC 30<br />Joss, Addie Portrait SGC 40<br />Keeler, Willie Portrait SGC 40<br />Keeler, Willie Batting SGC 50<br />McGinnity, Joe Follow Thru SGC 30<br />McGraw, John Portrait SGC 40<br />Tinker, Joe Bat on Shoulder SGC 50<br />Tinker, Joe Hands on Knees SGC 50<br />Tinker, Joe Portrait SGC 40<br />Wallace, Bobby Portrait SGC 30<br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>So where are you PSA 8 guys at?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>truly amazing stuff you all have. very jealous.<br /><br />Thanks T206, that is a gorgeous card...I have no idea why, but that one is my favorite tobacco card, by a long shot, any set.

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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>I'm not a PSA8 guy, actually I'm an SGC guy but I do own a PSA8 Sam Crawford with bat.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Good enough Jeff....if you own some SGC 92 or 96's those willl suffice as well...ha ha

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Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>I can upgrade the following:<br /><br />Bender, port, SGC 60<br />Clarke, batting, SGC 40<br />Huggins, port, SGC 50<br />Johnson, port, SGC 60<br />Marquard, HAT, SGC 50<br />Mcginnity, SGC 50<br />Mcgraw, port, no cap, SGC 50<br />Tinker, port, SGC 70<br />Wallace, SGC 50<br />Young, port, SGC 70

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Posted By: <b>aro13</b><p>I have the Walter Johnson Hands at Chest in PSA 6.

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Posted By: <b>fessgreg</b><p>not bragging but i got a sgc 96 frank chance batting and a sgc 92 johnny evers with chicage shirt. signed greg

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Can you post a scan of the T206 Pastorious in 10, jeez I'd like to see what it looks like, never have seen one prewar. Wow!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Michael brought the PSA 10 Pastorius to our dinner last week. It was the only "ten" I ever saw. It was razor sharp, no doubt about it.<br /><br />Michael- just saw you mentioned you brought it. Might help if I read all the posts!

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Barry....did he bring a couple bodyguards with him?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No bodyguards...but we made sure to keep the ketchup and alchoholic beverages as far away as possible <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Maybe New York is different...or maybe Michael is an ex Navy Seal....I'd be scared ****less to carry around a T206 PSA 10 in downtown Atlanta...lol

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- if I told you some of the things I've carried on the subway...I once had five Harry Wright season scorebooks with me in a brown paper bag that I was dropping off at my partner's office in Manhattan. They were easily worth well into six figures. But how would anybody know what was in that ratty bag? I carry many valuables with me all the time around Brooklyn and Manhattan, but I make sure to carry them in the worst looking container possible.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Barry I guess the street wanderers in New York aren't quite as aggressive as the street wanderers here in Atlanta. Parking to go to the Georgia Dome or Turner Field can always be exciting..

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Posted By: <b>fessgreg</b><p>barry i once carried 175k worth of ancient coins in a smelly,torn up, gym bag with smelly tshirts and shorts surronding them. this was in downtown pittsburgh. you're right. if you want to not get robbed make it look like you have nothing to rob. signed greg

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Three HOFers and a "could have been HOFer" Chase.<br /><br />All four have "tough" SOVEREIGN 460 backs.....<br /><br />T206's with the more difficult backs, I predict, will become even more valuable (than they are now) in the future.<br /><br />I have seen this trend at the last four Philly Shows and on ebay.<br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/a4sov460.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's exactly the way to carry valuables. If you put them in a briefcase handcuffed to your wrist, you are drawing attention to yourself.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171574807.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171574827.JPG"> <br /><br />Ted, I agree! Chase belongs in the HOF...somehow, however, I don't expect many to join our bandwagon!

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>It was a nice treat to see the PSA 10 at the NY Dinner.<br />Incredible card.<br /><br />I tried to trade five PSA 2s for the PSA 10, but Mike wouldn't have it.<br /><br />The math worked out perfectly... 5 x 2 = a 10... no?<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I carry my wallet strapped to my torso using roof-rack bungy cords, with the hooks firmly pulling my pants up by the belt loops!<br />It hurts, but everything is safe

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- I might have offered 2 PSA 5's, and even picked up the dinner tab!

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Posted By: <b>fessgreg</b><p>i'd like to see a scan of the t206 gem mint 10. it must be really awesome!!<br />signed greg

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>....Grade 7....Grade 8....Grade 9....and Grade 10.....<br />there isn't a discernable difference to the naked eye.<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Would be interesting with the list here of the "finest net 54 currently owned graded T206's" to put a net value on the whole set as is....the only one we don't have graded is a plank.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jeff,<br />I think that Chase used to be mine. I sold one that looks suspiciously like that to Yorktown at the National. If it is the same one, I am glad to know it is in good hands.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Nice Blue Chase, he's my 2nd favorite card in the set next to Walter Johnson's portrait.<br /><br />Here's my Chase with a SOVEREIGN 460 back....I also have him with BROAD LEAF....CYCLE 460<br />OLD MILL....POLAR BEAR....TOLSTOI....and all the other usual backs.<br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/achasechase.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>no bodyguards needed... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />i will try to scan soon...<br /><br />it is truly 3-dimensional!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Going on rough estimates of most recent auctions...here is what the Net 54 T206 high grade collection would be valued at....<br /><br />Total Set....$259,278.00<br /><br /><br />Baker, Home Run Follow Thru SGC 70 $565<br />Beckley, Jake Portrait PSA 7 $1900<br />Bender, Chief No Trees PSA 4 $208<br />Bender, Chief Trees PSA 3 $92<br />Bender, Chief Portrait PSA 4 $201<br />Bresnahan, Roger Portrait SGC 60 & PSA 5 $287<br />Bresnahan, Roger Batting SGC 70 $450<br />Brown, Mordecai Chicago on shirt PSA 6 $585<br />Brown, Mordecai Cubs on shirt PSA 6 $1212<br />Brown, Mordecai Portrait SGC 60 $407<br />Chance, Frank Batting SGC 96 $13,000 ?<br />Chance, Frank Red Portrait PSA 1 $45<br />Chance, Frank Yellow Portrait PSA 7 $1236<br />Chesbro, Jack Portrait SGC 50 $167<br />Clarke, Fred Batting SGC 50 $169<br />Clarke, Fred Portrait SGC 50 & PSA 4 $160<br />Cobb, Ty Green Portrait SGC 70 $6223<br />Cobb, Ty Red Portrait PSA 4 $1734<br />Cobb, Ty Bat off Shoulder SGC 50 $1725<br />Cobb, Ty Bat on Shoulder SGC 70 $3200<br />Collins, Eddie Portrait SGC 70 $690<br />Collins, Jimmy Portrait SGC 80 $643<br />Crawford, Sam Throwing SGC 60 $305<br />Crawford, Sam Batting PSA 8 $6,000 ?<br />Davis, George Throwing PSA 7 $1986<br />Duffy, Hugh Batting PSA 5 $419<br />Evers, Johnny Portrait PSA 6 $1261<br />Evers, Johnny Chicago on shirt SGC 92 $8500 ?<br />Evers, Johnny Cubs on shirt SGC 50 $549<br />Flick, Elmer Batting SGC 50 $162<br />Griffith, Clark Batting SGC 50 $144<br />Griffith, Clark Portrait PSA 6 $560<br />Huggins, Miller Portrait SGC 50 $115<br />Huggins, Miller Hands to mouth SGC 50 $167<br />Jennings, Hughie One Hand Showing PSA 7 $1640<br />Jennings, Hughie Both Hands Showing SGC 60 $423<br />Jennings, Hughie Portrait SGC 50 $166<br />Johnson, Walter Portrait SGC 60 $1602<br />Johnson, Walter Hands at Chest PSA 6 $1874<br />Joss, Addie Portrait SGC 40 $120<br />Joss, Addie Pitching PSA 7 $1089<br />Keeler, Willie Portrait SGC 50 $214<br />Keeler, Willie Batting SGC 50 $152<br />Kelley, Joe Batting PSA 4 $208<br />Lajoie, Napoleon Portrait PSA 6 $1558<br />Lajoie, Napoleon Throwing SGC 60 $637<br />Lajoie, Napoleon With Bat SGC 60 & PSA 5 $576<br />Marquard, Rube Portrait SGC 50 $200<br />Marquard, Rube Follow Through SGC 50 $175<br />Marquard, Rube Hands at Thighs SGC 50 $172<br />Mathewson, Christy Portrait SGC 80 $2225<br />Mathewson, Christy Black cap PSA 6 $1665<br />Mathewson, Christy White cap SGC 60 $1001<br />McGinnity, Joe Follow Thru SGC 50 $199<br />McGraw, John Portrait SGC 50 $229<br />McGraw, John Portrait w/cap PSA 7 $1057<br />McGraw, John Finger in Air SGC 60 $380<br />McGraw, John Glove at Hip SGC 50 $258<br />Plank, Eddie Portrait PSA 3 $40,388<br />Speaker, Tris Batting SGC 70 $1600<br />Tinker, Joe Bat off Shoulder SGC 60 $499<br />Tinker, Joe Bat on Shoulder SGC 50 $185<br />Tinker, Joe Hands on Knees SGC 50 $255<br />Tinker, Joe Portrait SGC 70 $900<br />Waddell, Rube Portrait SGC 80 $1325<br />Waddell, Rube Throwing SGC 70 $750 ?<br />Wagner, Honus Portrait SGC 10 $132,000 ?<br />Wallace, Bobby Portrait SGC 50 $148<br />Walsh, Ed Portrait PSA 4 $186<br />Wheat, Zack Batting PSA 7 $1476<br />Willis, Vic Portrait SGC 60 $311<br />Willis, Vic Throwing PSA 5 $344<br />Willis, Vic Batting PSA 5 $336<br />Young, Cy Portrait SGC 70 $3500 ?<br />Young, Cy Glove PSA 5 $1390<br />Young, Cy Bare Hand PSA 4 $798

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Posted By: <b>Russ Bright</b><p>is it just me or do some of these estimates STILL Seem a little low? If I could FIND a Joss portrait SGC 40 for $120 I'd buy a TON! I paid 42 for my BVG1 of this card...<br /><br />maybe I got ripped off, oh well!

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Russ...some do seem low...I just went the quick and easy way...the very last auction price I could find for each. I didn't the last five and average them out or anything like that. So in that sense a couple may be high as well. <br /><br />Edited to say there were also a few that were for example in SGC 70's...and I couldn't find auctions for those grades..so I kind went midway between PSA 5 and 6's. There are some with question marks beside them where I really took a shot in the dark.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Piedmont 150 back

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Add a Speaker SGC70.<br /><br /><br />Great thread--was wondering about a "composite set" of board members myself.<br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I don;t think anyone has put a Plank on the list yet, So put me down for a PSA 3<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Cool...I'll add both in the morning at work when I have a calculator at hand...

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I'm sure these will be topped by someone soon, but I have these four in SGC 50<br /><br />Clarke, Fred Batting <br />Evers, Johnny Cubs on shirt <br />Griffith, Clark Batting <br />Keeler, Willie Portrait <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>scott b. where were you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i thought you were the one with the Plank(s)...<br /><br />good work.<br /><br />MS

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Scott's Plank PSA 3 really boosted up the total value...I guess I could offer my house to everybody to the board for the entire T206 collection...

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>I thought there'd be a few more 7s and 8s, dont we have some MM-MT T206 collectors on the board?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>then we'd have a permanent meeting place...could turn it into a frat house

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dylan,<br /> Here's a few to add:<br /><br />1. Cobb Bat On PSA 5<br />2. Cobb Bat Off PSA 4 Piedmont 42<br />3. Baker PSA 6 Piedmont 42<br />4. Bender Trees PSA 4 Carolina Brights<br />5. Bresnahan Portrait SGC 70<br />6. Bresnahan Batting SGC 88<br />7. Clarke Port PSA 4 Hindu<br />8. Clarke Batting PSA 4 Hindu<br />9. Duffy PSA 7 American Beauty<br />10. Evers Cubs on shirt PSA 3 Hindu<br />11. Flick Batting SGC 60<br />12. Griffith, Batting PSA 5 american Beauty<br />13. Johnson Hand at chest PSA 5 Red Hindu<br />14. Marquard, Rube Hands at Thighs PSA 4 Hindu<br />15.McGraw, John Glove at Hip SGC 70<br />16.Speaker, Tris Batting SGC 70<br />17. Tinker, Joe Bat on Shoulder PSA 5 Tolstoi<br />18. Wallace, Bobby Portrait PSA 4 Hindu<br />19. Willis, Vic Throwing PSA 5 Lenox<br />20. Mathewson, Christy Black cap PSA 5 Piedmont 42<br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1172636453.JPG"> <br /><br />One nice card!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>If someone wants to list them I have 130-140 psa 8s, a couple 9s and a couple less along with a couple old sgc cards that psa would not grade.<br /><br />All except the SGC cards are on the PSA set registry.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>The list is for the HOF'ers only.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I have one I could add, Elberfield Washington portrait. But I won't. I haven't broken him out yet. But eventually I'll help him escape.<br /><br />If I went mad, sat down with scissors, and began cutting my T206s in half, I have dozens that I'd rather keep whole than the graded Elberfield. <br /><br />I consider his graded status a temporary flaw, that I'll eventually correct. I'll value him more when he's out of his slab.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Curious if don't want one slabbed why you would have paid the price on one just to bust it out?

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Got a good deal on him...<br /><br />Had been bidding and losing on the card and the card in slabs for months, finally won this one in a slab. I'd guess I bought about a dozen of my white border cards slabbed. This Elberfield is the only one not busted out.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Not sure how you'd get a good deal on a high grade slabbed card unless your wanting a slabbed card...If we are talking PSA 8, I'm sure it was AT LEAST in the three thousand dollar range?....seems most guys not into slabs would only go a couple hundred max for an Elberfield raw in nrmt shape.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>DAVE<br /><br />What you are implying in your latest post is that us "naked card lovers" are inflexible.<br />That we only acquire cards in their naked state and never Graded ones.<br /><br />But, it appears that the devoted Graded card lovers are the inflexible ones, who would<br />never dare to buy a naked card.<br /><br />Just like Frank's acquisition of the Elberfeld card, if I see a good deal on a tougher card<br /> as the the Elberfeld (Washington portrait), I don't give a crap if it is naked or graded. I<br />go after it. And, whether I crack it open or not is my prerogative.<br /><br />I have many cards still in their plastics that are Graded 4, 5 , 6, 7, and a couple of 8's.<br />For now, I leave them encapsulated for future trades or sales or however I intend to<br /> dispose of them.<br /><br />You guys have to get off this "critical kick" of yours towards collectors who don't quite<br /> agree with your collecting habits. It's a big, big world out there in BB card hobbyland.<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Your taking my comments a little out of context. Honestly I don't care either way if people collect graded or ungraded. My point was...within the graded card industry, there is a significant market price on a PSA 8 Elberfield portrait. The prices they go for in a PSA 8 or an SGC 88 are not the same prices that the card would go for ungraded...do you not agree with that? My only question was why pay that much of a premium for a PSA 8, when your not going to keep it incapsulated? That card that may go for $9000 in a PSA 8, I seriously doubt if sold after being cracked you'd get much more than $500 for it...

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I didn't buy Elberfield to sell him... I got him to collect him. To collect the white border cards, plus the Kid had an interesting career. <br /><br />For me, collecting cards isn't about the money. Nor their value. I don't doubt that some of the slabbed cards, no, I'll grant you that ALL of the slabbed cards that I've broken out will now sell for less. No big deal, I'm not selling them. For me, they're now easier to store, they fit in the little business card box that currently holds about 600 T cards. I can sort through them easier to look at the series progression, the uniform and pose changes. I find the slabs clunky, bulky, and a pain.<br /><br />I keep thinking about starting a Net54 forum that is about old baseball and old baseball cards, and absolutely not about slabbed cards and card values. I suspect a few folks here would migrate over. But I'm not Leon, I lack the skill, patience, and wisdom he demonstrates daily, hourly, here. I don't have time to constantly monitor such a site, either.<br /><br />My point wasn't to change the direction of this thread, I just noticed that there had not been an Elberfield Washington portrait mentioned.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>No argument that a Graded card in today's environment (especially Ebay) will sell for more $$$$<br />than it's naked counterpart. Unless, it's a private transaction where both buyer and seller fully<br /> trust each other. And Dave, that's the way it was for many years from the 1970's to the mid-90's.<br />Now, I suspect a large number of Graded card collectors on this Forum are so conditioned in their<br />card buying habits, that they would be very suspect of any sharp looking naked card.<br /><br />So, I would like to understand this.....1st..did you collect cards back in those years, prior to the<br />BB card Grading phenomena ?<br /><br />2nd..If so, were you very meticulous or selective from whom you bought (or traded) cards with ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hey Ted,<br /><br />That is the heart of the issue. Seems to be that before grading, collectors did need to establish a relationship with someone before they were comfortable with transactions through the mail. Otherwise, most was face to face, at shows or seeking one another out. Condition has always been a concern, but seems to me that most collectors were happy with Ex cards, nrMt wasn't necessary. The more it became about the money, the more dissatisfied folks were with G or VG cards. For me, I didn't try to put T206s together in Ex. I was after the cards because of the set itself and the players depicted, not because of value. I was generally content with VG cards. I'd have never gotten them together if I was after Ex, cost would have been too much for me then, way too much now.<br /><br />So when did you start collecting, Dave? And what did you initially collect?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>You guys have just raised an interesting issue and Dave is right: collectors that don't want slabbed cards may be forced to pay an inflated rate for certain cards they want but are only to be found slabbed. Maybe the problem is not as acute for low to mid-range conditioned cards but for 7s and up the disparity between the raw and the slabbed version of the same card is exponential. In essence, buying the card slabbed and then breaking it out immediately causes the value to plummet in the marketplace. So the Teds and the Franks out there are knowingly willing to erase some of the value of their cards (at least until they are re-slabbed) in the name of collecting what they want and how they want, with relative value thrown to the wind. You guys are basically the anti-Jim Crandells -- who claims to knowingly have trimmed cards in his collection and won't dare have them released from the slabs for fear of losing value, despite his desire to clean up the hobby by spotting trimmed cardds! Interesting. Let me know when the two of you are ready for your invitation to the NYC Dinner Thread III Dinner.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Jeff, I'd not thought it through like that, but I agree with what you've said.<br /><br />I'm working up an appetite for a NY Dinner (should I use all caps for that?), just takes a while for a Ky fella to stack enough nickels up to afford the trip. I'll get up there one day.<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>Judson Hamlin</b><p>Jeff- You're right; and I include myself in the Frank/Ted camp. I have found that the further along I go with my 206 and 205 sets, there are just not that many raw cards to choose from, from buyers that I would trust sight unseen. Also, many of the dealers that I do trust and have dealt with for years now sell graded cards almost to the exclusion of raw cards. That doesn't make me want to stop doing business with them, it just means that I have to buy graded cards, sometimes at a premium, to progress these sets. I haven't started to exhume the graded cards (yet) but I agree with Frank that they take up way too much space as compared to a top-holder. <br /><br />OT for Jeff- Tacopina's trial down here starts on Monday- he's been busy warming up his rightous indignation muscles, so he should be ready

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Jeff did kind of bring more point more to light than I was able to do...it being the opposite of many...buying cards and knowing that when your taking them out of slabs the "general consensus" of what they are worth falls. Grading has indeed done some ridicilious things with card prices...I agree. When a common T206 (and I'm guessing on a book value) in near mint condition is said to be worth $400, but put in a PSA 8 holder than instantly sells for $2200...it is all about the slab of course. <br /><br />Ted and Frank, the both of you may very well have no problem buying high end slabbed cards and ripping them out (if it is a card you just plain need). Obviously most people couldn't do this for finiancial reasons to begin with...from what I've gathered about both of you on the board that isn't really an issue. <br /><br />Wanted to also say I wasn't trying to come across as a smartass to either of you. I'm a huge T206 guy...I don't have the years in it either of you have and have learned alot from both your posts on this board. I'm 31...so my collecting in the 70's obviously was limited to diapers and rattlers. I did what everyone my age did..collect the mass produced modern crap in the 80's...got back into cards about three years ago after getting married and started on a 1952 topps set. Sold that last year to focus on prewar and eventually just T206's after coming up on this board a year ago. So again...the relationships and trust built buying from the local card shop or the card show in town, neither of those have been available to me when it comes to vintage. For me, all experience have been about slabbed cards...I'm not in it for the money, as I said i'm 31 with three small kids and a wife...I collect PSA 1-3's. Obviously not Jim Crandell material. The day may come when I get sick of the slabs as well and bust everything out...but for now, it makes more sense for me to have them slabbed. In the grades I buy, the card actually comes cheaper being slabbed if you figure in what somebody spent to get the card graded. Also with a nine year old son, who does occasionally like to look at what I have, I dont have to worry when he quickly grabs up a T206, its encased and immune to his accident waiting to happen hands. <br /><br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>My youngest kids turn 16 Sunday. Oldest is 35...<br /><br />When my twins were 4ish, they saw me with cards, and wanted some of their own. I gave each of them a ring binder with 9 pocket sheets, and a few dozen beat up 1960s and 70s Topps cards, most with pen marks on them where someone created a game years ago.<br /><br />Having a 9 year old son is a good reason to have the cards in slabs. Good enough reason for me, Dave.<br /><br />I didn't buy slabbed cards to have a slabbed card (well I did only once, because I was going to give the card as a gift), I bought a slabbed card for the reason Judson stated, options at filling holes are few as one progresses into a set. <br /><br />After the first few cards were broken out I started saving the little slips with the numbers and info on them. Don't know what I'll do with them...<br /><br />And in thinking back on it, I wasn't buying cards from but half a dozen folks, for the most part, years ago. I'd stumble onto a dealer, buy a few cards from him, and if I liked the cards, the grading, the service, then I'd stay loyal... If they didn't grade to suit, or if they yanked me around with ordering delays and high shipping, then I'd move on. Reflecting on that, the price of the card didn't rile me near as much as shipping costs. Jeff's post got me to see that. Thanks.<br /><br />Sometimes I bought cards face to face, from folks I knew. And I bought a few at shows. Some dealers were helpful, knew cards, and liked to talk about cards and baseball. I'd make repeat trips to those guys. Some would tell me I couldn't afford whatever card or type I'd asked about, even if he had one, I'd move on, even if I had half a dozen of the type already in my pocket. (Used to put cards in top loaders and pack 'em in pockets in those days, I haven't been to a big show in ten years, anyone still walk around with cards in their pockets?)

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>The other reason at least for the time being is at least in my case, you never know when you may need the emergency money. Of course I have an emergency fund in bank accounts..but never know what can happen. IF I ever needed to get some quick money and had to sell my T206's, which I'd hate to have to do, I feel I could at least get back the money I put into them having them slabbed. <br />Again, may all change in the future as I get a little older, build a little more equity...living in Atlanta while I know isn't as expensive as living in the northeast, it still isn't cheap. I'm also going to take a wild guess being a Judge (and to what level Judge you are and what you make of course a response isn't necessary), although I'd assume a Judge of any sort makes pretty good money. I've said it before but i'm a estimator and project manager for a asphalt paving company (damn lost out on that bid this morning), i'm not rolling in dough...yet anyway. Things as they are, if I ever go the route of collecting just raw cards, I would probably sell most the ones I have as is and then start over raw. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>And frankly, they are right. A judge in LA County makes about the same as a 1st year associate at a major firm. I know more than one lawyer who would like to take a shot at the bench but cannot afford to take a judicial position. We lose a lot of good judges every year to the private arbitration/mediation business. <br /><br />As far as slabs go, I definitely see the financial value of slabbing stuff to sell but I am sick of the storage headaches and costs of slabs for cards I don't want to sell. I haven't submitted a card for slabbing in quite some time and my submittals probably will be few and far between in the future. Not in any way a critique of slabbed cards, simply my growing preference not to have thick, heavy plastic cases to deal with.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Amen to both, warsawlaw....<br /><br />And I AM guilty of getting some T210s and a T206 graded by SGC when I decided to sell them. Maybe that is the time to get a card graded...<br /><br /><br />And Mr. Boxing Card Man, I revived your Tomorrow Life Begins spring training thread..<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Wrong again.<br /><br />I don't know that I have trimmed vcards in my collection. I presume that a small percentage have been altered because some get by even the keen eyes of the best card analyzers in the world. Once they are in the holders it is hard to say and they all seem to have incredible value in the grade I collect.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>To get my list of T206s on the PSA Set Registry go to psacard.com. Then go to PSA Set Registry and then baseball sets and then T206. I rank 25th or so in this set and all my cards are listed.<br /><br />I don't know how to do links.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I'll take a look at your set. By the way, I'm in the mood to not fight tonight. <br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, as noted in the other thread you wrote that you were "sure" that some of your cards would not regrade. Now you claim that you simply "presume" this to be true. Sorry that I took you at your word. I had forgotten for a brief moment who I was dealing with. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Oh nuts--I was looking forward to it--couldn't wait to get home from the TOC squash championships to go at it again.<br /><br />Jeff is always ready for a skirmish but I have been warned by many to steer clear off him--so go ahead Jeff--you will win because I won't respond.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I'm not looking for a fight -- it just pains me to find you always insulting everyone and then crying about the treatment you receive here. And despite your many offers to "debate" me now you are running away? Jim, you are a lot of things but I never expected you to be a coward.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Said I wasn't in the mood....however that obviously doesn't change the fact your still a LOLLYGAGGER<br /><br /><br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />You just flat out have nothing to say that indicates any level of intelligence.<br /><br />Jeff,<br /><br />I am running away???? I have offered to debate you several times and you never respond. <br /><br />You don't understand Jeff--I don't care about the treatment--and I am only responding to what people say to me. Why should I go out of my way to insult people like Bretta and Dave who have nothing intelligent to say. I am only responding to their insults.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, last night you claimed that you have been warned to "steer clear off [sic]" me and that you won't respond -- and today you respond. I find it funny how at a last resort you claim that you have anonymous support on the board when we both know that there is not a single person here that can stand you. You've even managed to insult Joann. I guess she's bad too. It must be tough to live in a world where you're the only one who is always right and everyone is always wrong. I've never seen a guy who is so blind to his own stink.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>I just want to say I don't mind either of you.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I get so sick of this "Dave and Bretta have nothing intelligent to say" line of crap you keep spewing. I haven't seen where either of us are doing anything but responding to your typical ramblings. I told you last night I wasn't in the mood, and what do you do? You act like a jerk, again. Maybe it has nothing to do with the cards...maybe it has nothing to do with the collectors...maybe you just have problems getting along with everyone in your life?? Do you find in your daily life everyone you encounter rolling thier eyes as they see you coming Jim? Give up this crap about us not having anything intelligent to say. Once again, and as always...Lollygagger.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I have no idea what you mean. You and others keep saying I am disliked on the board. WHO CARES--this is not a popularity contest. I could care less what anyone thinks here--I just tell it like it is or how I see it. You and others seem to take great comfort in that there are others who don't like me--<br /><br />Dave the Dunce speaks again--ha ha ha.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ok, Jim. Go to work. There is no comfort here in the fact that you are roundly reviled, believe me. I wish you were a more positive person and liked by many. Really.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Why don't you go sit in a cold, dark room with your PSA 8's and 9's....and cuddle with them? At least that would give everyone here a break from you.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>"Roundly reviled"--good one.<br /><br />You just cannot stay away from the personal attacks.<br /><br />Appreciate all the support non card alteration--ha ha.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I do actually wish you were a nicer person and not so ugly. I think your children would benefit and their children would benefit and so forth and maybe at least a part of the world would be nicer, less paranoid and more giving. Imagine what your children would think if they read this asinine crap you post out here. Do you ever think of that?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Do you ever have any hobby thoughts or do you just like to attack me all the time.<br /><br />You said you were supportive? All I know about you is you and Colt were trading insults and you both took them down.<br /><br />If you have anything positive to say please say it--did you ever think of that?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, what you fail to realize is that there can hardly be any discourse when you are around -- in any venue. Something bad must have happened to you to make you this way. I wonder what.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />That is about 6 personal insults in a row--not once have I stooped anywhere near your level. <br /><br />Where is all this vigorous support for my positions you said you made...looking and looking and looking.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, do you not recognize that T206 agreed to back off of you-only to be attacked by you again? How is it insulting for me to point this out? Do you have a framed picture of Richard Nixon on your wall?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff's tenth persoanl attack in a row--I think its getting obvious that the guy has serious issues that he feels the need to continue this.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, are you reaching out to the board in a desperate attempt to get any support? I think you'll find that your desperate pleas are falling on deaf ears. Personal issues? You think I have some personal issues because I find myself trying to dial down your nastiness and to get you to play nice? Jim, I'm just curious: what personal issues do you think someone like me would have that would cause me to respond to you the way I have? Please enlighten me.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />You just don't get it--I don't need support--I don't want support--but something is wrong with a guy who attacks someone time and again while I have said nothing about you. You hate me--I get it--the board gets it--is it necessary to say it 20 different ways and bring my family into it?<br /><br />Can't you talk about hobby issues. I have asked you numerous times to talk about all this substantial support you weere giving me that I can't seem to remember?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you so badly want support -- that's why you are constantly whining about not getting any regarding your crusade to rid the world of trimmed cards (except the ones in your collection, naturally). I don't have the time to weed through the past 4000 posts so I won't cut and paste in a Niedermeyerian way to show you my past support. Why don't you ask Barry if I supported you publicly?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Honestly I don't care--just stop the personal attacks.<br /><br />Support the cause if you wish--don't support it if you wish -- I just don't remember you doing so.<br /><br />Ridding the world of trimmeed cards is too ambitious--cutting back on the growth from here would be nice though.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>oops, sorry i thought you guys were back on the topic of high-grade T206 cards...<br /><br />my bad, carry-on guys.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hopefully we are--any new 8s or 9s Mike in T206. Getting bids at $2,500 for high pop 8 commons I am thinking of hitting to free up some funds.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>No more fighting in this thread....please.....it is a thread about high grade T206's so that is the subject....I included my SGC 70.......I really would like to have less bickering for at least the next few days, pretty please..(no need for comments about this)...best regards

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i'm trying to get this back on topic.<br /><br />jim- i have picked up a few new common 8's, some 7's, rare backs, rare variations (elberfeld, smith, kleinow, etc, all PSA 5), and as you might have seen acquired one of the PSA 10's...<br /><br /><br />you?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you Leon...whew.<br /><br />What did you pay for the common 8s and what was the pop?

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>fairly low pop...1/4...1/5, none higher...$2000-2300...they are starting to pick up again...2200-2400, even higher depending on pops.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I'm curious to know if either of your PSA 8's or 9's were ever submitted raw by yourselves...or if all your bought slabbed?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />Thats a good buy price in my opinion. I would give you your pick of commons pop 5 and higher at $2,500.<br /><br />Dave,<br /><br />All my 8s and 9s were bought graded. I bought a Cobb Green raw that was advertised nrmt-mt came back trimmed by PSA and SGC, a Cobb bat on shoulder that came back altered by PSA and resubmitted and was a psa 5, a Jennings portrait that came back trimmed by psa and sgc graded as a 60.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Thats what I would have thought. The chance of ever picking up a raw card on ebay and it coming back a 8 or 9 are slim and none. I've seen raw cards that "looked" good enough in scans...but not good enough to spend the money on a raw card that was being asked. The very best I've ever gotten submitting a raw T206 off ebay was a PSA 6, and I would have thought a 7, it was a Powell horizontal.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Having the raw Cobb come back as trimmed was crushing to me and from that point on I never bought a raw card.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> I have submitted about 90% of my 7's and 8's and most were from original finds. It's rare to see a raw card on EBAY these days that will grade that high, but it does happen every once in awhile. Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>Hi Dave,<br /><br /> The only Psa 8 in my collection was purchased raw off of Ebay about 3 years ago. It was in a group of five t206s and I think I paid $550.00 for all of them. Probably 98% of what I have has been purchased raw.<br /><br />Martin

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Brian...about 90%? That is some record. What are you defining "finds" as? Just groups of cards you've managed to find off some elderly couple? Actual "they've been in the attic for years" type deals? Truely one lucky man. <br /><br /><br />Martin...that is one hell of a deal. Again, nothing i've every come across. The PSA 6 Powell I bought raw in a lot of 5 cards. The other four were all beaters including a Wallace. Got the five for $85. Ended up selling the Powell for $385 if memory serves.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> Back in the 80's and early 90's it wasn't that uncommon for "finds" of 300-400 cards to hit the market place. It doesn't happen as often now, but I know of 2 original collections which are still intact that total over 1200 cards.....<br /><br />Most of my high grade T206's came from 3 different finds:<br />1. "Southern Find"<br />2. Richmond Find<br />3. Charlotte Find- a REAL ole lady at a flea market with 400 nm/mt T206's... Her husband was a mailman obsessed with condition, so the cards were amazing...<br /><br /><br /><br />Otherwise 20 cards from the NC mountains find and a few off EBAY are it...

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Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p><br />Dave,<br /><br /> I think only two groups of t206s/t205s that I have acquired qualify as "finds", meaning that they actually had not seen the light of day for many many years. One was a group of about 130 T206s or so found in a attic just north of where I live in Virginia. The other was a mixed group of T205s and T206s from Richmond.<br /><br />Brian,<br /><br /> I have sometimes heard the Richmond find called the Southern find. I think it derives from the the fact that one of the original purchasers owned a Card store here in Charlottesville named Southern Cards. Were they two distinct finds?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>If either of you just plain run out of room for the cards you can let me know by email. I'll keep things on the downlow, but may have a kid or two I can trade for the cards....HA HA

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>dave- i bought my 8's & 9's already graded...<br /><br />the best i have gotten back from PSA is some 6's & 7's.