Collector's Association

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Is anyone interested in forming some kind of collector's association in order to clean up the hobby regarding trimmed cards being graded by the major grading companies? <br /><br />I really feel like it's about time some of us take a stand and do something about this problem that threatens to destroy the hobby as we know it and make all of our collections worthless.<br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think anyone is actually "against" this idea. The goals, enforcement, and formation seem to be stumbling blocks which are difficult to surpass. I still argue, regardless of what anyone says, the main problem is at the high end of the graded spectrum. I know of a few cards I own, which are vg'ish (raw) that have had creases worked on with a spoon. They are shiny looking....and I don't care....best regards

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br />Send your name in to Barry who will organize a group of collectors committed to change.<br /><br />Alteration affects all aspects of the hobby equally--particularly the ungraded and lower grade varea if you degine crease removal as alteration.<br /><br />Ok Barry?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I am, if it means that all Collector's Association members would learn about cards so that they could identify and evaluate cards on their own, if members would always offer full refunds for cards sold as a transaction safeguard where card authenticity or condition was in doubt, if members would boycott all slabbing business, and if members would break their slabbed cards out returning them to the fresh air.<br /><br />Yes, I'm in favor of such an Association. That would put an end to the current grading problems.<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />In case why you wonder why this needs to be done off Net54 just bread Frank's post a couple of times.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Be sure to fry the breaded post before eating it. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Looks like we may have another long day here.<br /><br />I like the concept of people being more aware of the bad things that go on in the hobby, and I am totally in favor of discussing them on a regular basis on the board, or whereever else it is appropriate. But it is clear that an organization isn't going to happen. And please don't count on me to form it; I'd be happy to lend my hobby knowledge, but forming organizations isn't one of my skills.<br /><br />I hope this thread doen't turn into another bloodbath <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>We were just going to have you take names Barry.<br /><br />You want to give up on the Collectors Association?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>This forum already is a collector's association.<br /><br />And better than most any that can be created... for the fact that opinions vary and a disagreements are voiced.<br /><br /><br />If we want to make a difference - I have a suggestion for the least intrusive / most effective way to do so:<br /><br />The poll feature can be a powerful tool.<br />Every so often, lets have a HOBBY ISSUE poll.<br />The results of which can be forwarded to grading companies and auction houses.<br /><br />If actual poll data is submitted as evidence - it puts pressure on organizations to be more vigilant and ethical.<br /><br /><br />In the end / the grading companies and to some extent the auction houses will be the most important piece in the puzzle with regard to any potential hobby cleanup. Giving them the evidence they need to shape their business practices is the best / quickest / easiest / most powerful way to help better this hobby.<br /><br /><br />jmho.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think Joe hit the nail on the head. We already have the attention of 1000+ avid and casual collectors who lurk and post on this board daily. We can bring up and deal with any issue concerning the hobby. We don't need total agreement, just participation.<br /><br />So why can't we just agree that Net54 is the organization? We don't need bylaws or officers, just dedicated and knowledgable people. Does anybody disagree with this?

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>That is fine but does not address the problems brought up in Ryan's opening post. How does this clean up the hobby regarding trimmed cards being graded by the major grading companies?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I do but nobody cares.<br /><br />Good luck and thanks for your help in the past.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree. If anyone doesn't think that this board is somewhat of a watchdog itself, just let an altered card be sold in a public format, without full disclosure. I would guess many decisions in the hobby are swayed due to public scrutiny from the Net54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum.....best regards

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />It doesn't but tghe majority of Net 54 does not care.<br /><br />If something is done it will have to be done by a concerned group of Net 54.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>and think of how powerful it would be if we emailed a grading company (with a link) and said:<br /><br />83% of vintage card enthusiasts polled are concerned that grading companies are not careful enough in detecting doctored cards.<br /><br />or to an auction house...<br /><br />91% of vintage card enthusiasts polled are concerned about "bettering"(is that a word?) of cards by Auction Houses.<br /><br /><br />Something like that would carry a lot more weight than any opinion expressed by what could be perceived as an activist organization of like-minded individuals.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>The problem with Leon's answer is that there are altered cards being sold all the time in and out of holders and the number is growing.

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I'd be glad to assist in any ways that I can. seanchristian@yahoo.com

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I mainly trust SGC for my 3rd party grading...as well as most of this board. My guess is they catch about 99.x% of the issues....I am not sure we will ever get better than that...Not with humans anyway. I like this discussion much better than yesterdays discussions....Also, I really like Joe's answer(s) on this thread...

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I haven't given up or bailed out on anything.<br /><br />How about if we just kick this idea around for one day and see what kind of responses we get? Let's see how board members feel about Net54 being a loose organization that has the same interests in mind that we discussed at the meeting. Do you think there is even one person on this board who likes buying an altered card, high grade or low, slabbed or unslabbed?<br /><br />Let's just see where this goes. It's just one day. Thank you.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Depends if you count crease removal as card alteration or nor. If you say removal of creases is an alteration then you are wrong. If you are just including trimming then probably so--I have a lot of confidence in Dave to catch trimming. Does not mean that there are not a fair amount of trimmed cards already in holders.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"Does anybody disagree with this?"<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong - Net54 is a great message board. There's a lot of knowledge here, and a lot of fantastic people. The board is well-managed and it's a great place.<br /><br />There's also a LOT of resistance to certain types of collectors, and a LOT of resistance to sharing certain types of information.<br /><br />For the record, I voiced this opinion at the meeting, but have refrained from commenting in the meeting-related threads. My feeling is that some sort of hobby group is a great idea, but a group that acts as a police force or drafts a "code of ethics" will be dead before it starts. What would make us think that an unethical person would ever abide by a "code of ethics"? Or that some sort of hobby group could get an auction house or dealer (or collector, for that matter) to change his practices?<br /><br />I felt that a hobby association should be a place that gathers information and makes it freely available to any collector - old and new alike - who needs it. Information on how to spot alterations in certain issues, information on people's perceptions of and experiences with auction houses, information that a "newbie" collector would want but also information that an experienced collector starting a new set would find useful.<br /><br />Too often the answer to the question is "I've been collecting &lt;insert set here&gt; for 40 years, and I know how to spot an alteration. Don't ask me how, I just do. If you want to learn how, you need to go out and buy the cards - touch them, feel them, smell them, and get experience with them. Then you'll learn, just like I did."<br /><br />What if you're a type card collector and you just want to buy an E107 HOFer? <br /><br />There needs to be a resource in this hobby that accumulates the information and knowledge that's been assembled over years and years of collecting. Many of us are trying to solve puzzles with certain sets that have probably already been solved but have been lost in the history of the hobby because it was never documented or shared with others. Many of us have been curious about bidding in a given auction because they've heard whispers of improprieties, but can't seem to get anyone to go on the record with anything. Many of us are very experienced collectors who are very confident in our ability to detect altered cards - but still got a few wrong when Dave Forman passed around samples at the meeting in NYC last week.<br /><br />Furthermore, Net54 is a great place, but it's a segment of the hobby. Prewar baseball cards. Who's the association for 1965 Topps? Who's the association for 2004 Upper Deck? Who's the association for boxing cards? Hockey cards? If you mention 1977 Topps here, and you're not an established member, you get hammered for not reading the board rules. If you want to find out what a 1921 Herpolsheimer is, you can search through the 54 posts but all the scans have been deleted so you can't see one. <br /><br />If an association is going to happen, and really do something special for the hobby, it needs to address ALL the issues in the hobby, for the ENTIRE hobby - all sports, all years, graded and raw - recognize the legitimacy of each, respect the preferences of each individual collector, draw knowledge from people who are truly willing to share it, and then archive that knowledge in a searchable, intuitive way.<br /><br />Just my two cents. Carry on.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- that's a well thought out response, and a very ambitious agenda. Can we really form a group to accomplish all those things?<br /><br />And if you do want to learn about the E107 set, the top E107 collectors participate on this board. It's all here.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>That makes perfect sense to me--education and access to information is usually the best cure. And the internet obviously makes a project like this doable. So, where do we go from here?<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />That was an extremely thoughtful and on the money post.<br /><br />Thanks for attending and adding your insights at the dinner.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br />Al's comments were spot on.<br /><br />Our view is that if the Association is to have any impact at all, it must be a great deal<br />more than a Knowledge Center. It must have teeth behind its actions.<br /><br />If the Association could recruit 10,000 members nationally with annual dues of $100<br />per member, then it could accomplish a great deal.<br /><br />It could lobby, along with other collectors associations, to pass legislation against<br />knowingly selling an altered or counterfit item.<br /><br />It could recommend that its members use or not use certain grading companies<br /><br />It could fine dealers who violated the rules---or at least regularly inform all of<br />ite members of the violations. <br /><br />It could ban members who violated certain rules, and it even could hire investigtive<br />journalists to pursue the bad apples.<br /><br />To form a powerful national association, we need to raise $100,000 to recruit members,<br />hire an attorney and form a committee to structure its objectives, rules and regulations.<br /><br />We could attract members by packaging membership with a subscription to a service<br />that collectors care a great deal about- i.e. card prices<br /><br />If the members of this Board are really serious about forming a powerful organization that<br />can truly influence the state of the hobby, then you can affect change.<br /><br />Whilst, some may not like to hear it, it will take money to build the association and money<br />to operate it but a small fee of $100 or $200 a year will give both voice and piece of mind<br />to the thousands of collectors out there.<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bruce, I agree and I would certainly pay that.<br /><br />Lets see a show of hands on how many would theoretcally be willing to pay $100 for a powerful industry association(with details still to be worked out).<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I have no desire to join an association that's going to tell me what I can and can't do. I just want access to information and in turn I would gladly share whatever expertise and experience I might have. Anything more than that will get hopelessly bogged down. In my humble opinion of course. I like Al's gentler yet far reaching and powerful approach. Something like a Wikipedia for card collectors would be excellent.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There is nothing wrong with a membership fee. Most organizations do have them.<br /><br />But to organize something as ambitious as just suggested, you will need professionals who know how to do it. How does one go about finding and paying such a group?

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Barry makes an important point.<br /><br />Northing happens by accident.<br /><br />A formal association must be well organized with clearly stated objectives,<br />financial resources, and leadership.<br /><br />The best place to begin is to identify three or four Board members who<br />have played key roles in their own professional associations- i.e.<br />Accounting, Insurance, Wall Street or a special interest or collectibles<br />group.<br /><br />They could prepare a brief outline on the necessary action steps.<br />It would be quite helpful if one or more of the founding members<br />was an attorney. <br /><br />Once the basic steps have been established, we could create the platform<br />for the Association and then aggressively recruit members.<br /><br />The purpose of the association is not to tell its members what to do,<br />who to use for card grading, or which dealers to use or not use, but<br />to collectively address the vital issues facing the hobby and to <br />speak with authority and influence because our association represents<br />10,000 or 100,000 voices not one.<br /><br />If you want a kind, gentle association, then everyone can feel good and<br />nothing will change. Change only comes with power. Money and<br />success create power. A bunch of guys and gals talking about baseball<br />cards may be fun, but it will never enable all of you to accomplish<br />the objectives that you have delineated in your posts.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p><b>feasibility</b><br /><br />It would be nice to get a group together of 10,000 or more, organize great meetings, collect dues, etc.<br /><br />but is that going to happen?<br /><br /><br />If we are talking philosophical - I can come up with a much better utopia than I previously suggested.<br /><br /><br />But if we are talking reality.... we already have a nice group of poeple here - organize the polls - word them correctly - and give auction houses and grading companies a resource to understand what they need to do to keep the customer happy.<br /><br /><br />I don't mean to discourage anyone...<br />but if anyone is serious about making a change - feasibility of particular suggestions is important, no?<br /><br /><br />edited to fix spelling and grammar... but I am sure I missed some more errors.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>"If you want a kind, gentle association, then everyone can feel good and<br />nothing will change. Change only comes with power. Money and<br />success create power. A bunch of guys and gals talking about baseball<br />cards may be fun, but it will never enable all of you to accomplish<br />the objectives that you have delineated in your posts."<br /><br />I completely disagree with this. Knowledge and communication are a much more efficient use of power than money as well as more engaging and inclusive. We can agree to disagree, though.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I've been saying this for months -- Net54 is an internet watchdog for pre-war cards and SGC does a great job of identifying impermissible alterations.<br /><br />There is no need for any additional policing. <br /><br />If you buy raw cards or cards not graded by a third-party grading company with a money-backed guarantee, you will always be assuming risk -- I don't care how many collectors you have as members of an association, or how many dealers or auction houses you sign up for the code of ethics. <br /><br />By only purchasing cards graded by a third-party grading company with a money-backed guarantee you will lower the value of raw cards, which are at highest risk of alteration. If the only cards with value were those graded by a third-party grading company with a money-backed guarantee, then the card doctors would have less and less incentive to keep working on their cards.<br /><br />Since we're talking about utopias -- here's mine:<br /><br />If every pre-war baseball card were to be graded by SGC, with a money-backed guarantee, then there would be virtually no chance that doctored cards are being regularly circulated in the market. In the event someone found one, SGC would take it back at full value, and then slab the card as altered. Eventually, all collectors of pre-war cards would agree that there were no altered cards in the hobby.<br /><br />But, if you continue to buy raw -- or through companies that do not have money-backed guarantees -- then you perpetuate the alterations and encourage the card doctors.<br /><br />Period.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Either one would be a plus.<br /><br />Bruce--noble aims--would be ideal if this could succeed but you are going to have to get a core group of collectors willing to devote a substantial amount of time and a good sized group willing to contribute at least $100--both big challenges.<br /><br />Good luck--I am watching to see how many great vintage collectors are prepared to contribute $100--so far seems like Barry, me and you.<br /><br />Leon--would you contribute $100 under the right circumstances and do you think your collecting buddies(forget what you called them) who collect like you do would?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206 Collector,<br /><br />"If you continue to buy raw....then you perpetuate the alterations and encourage the card doctor"<br /><br />We don't agree with everything but you hit the nail on the head here.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Is Bruce Dorskind spearheading this collectors' association effort? Just wondering.

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Bruce and All,<br /><br />There was mention of the association providing price data so I would assume that would be my calling. I am sure that we could get involved and maybe host such a thing or even incorporate it into our existing site. <br /><br />Some ideas would be to approve all dealers and have them post a seal on all their eBay listing and booths at trade shows. Maybe offer a shipping discount to any other members who buy cards from them. Some type of incentive of savings.<br /><br />Same would go with the grading companies I am sure we could work out something that the members can get better submission rates.<br /><br />So then the association can offer benefits to it's members and police itself. Dealers will be held accountable for their actions. As well as being able to report any problems with buyers not paying. Etc...<br /><br />Just a start but it would have potential all we have to do is get the ball rolling....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ryan, am I the only one that notices the tongue-in-cheek manner of your initial posting? Can't be.

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>Food for thought, how hard could it be?<br /><br />We, well YOU... Already surpass the knowledge possessed by those other companies;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1170347705.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>"Ryan, am I the only one that notices the tongue-in-cheek manner of your initial posting? Can't be."<br /><br />I just think I burnt out all my smartassness on yesterday's thread and have decided today to at least attempt a bit of constructive endeavor. But maybe I'll have more energy after a good lunch. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />--Chad<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Chad,<br /><br />Some people never run out of that quality.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that the best way to combat the ills you are so concerned about is by endorsing a grading company that provides money-backed guarantees for altered cards. Ultimately, you cannot police the dealers and the auction houses -- you have to police the cards themselves, which is what third-party grading is all about. But, without a money-backed guarantee, then you are left with a useless piece of plastic with a crooked number on the label.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jeff, Why do you think Ryan was not serious about saving this hobby?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>No you aren't....but I steered it in a positive manner, I think....

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206(sorry--honestly I forgot your name)<br /><br />I love Dave Forman and SGC. I also have 25,000 graded PSA cards.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For the record, personally, I don't think the hobby needs to be saved. I am still willing to help if I can. <br /><br />Jim- under the right association circumstances I would throw in $100 to join...

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>But with all these threads the last couple of days, we haven't heard from Gil. Gil, where are you man? <br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Thanks for responding.<br /><br />Jeff,<br /><br />Would you donate $100 under the right circumstances(which would include me never mentioning my view on abortion again)?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your observation is not the only one.....<br /> <br />....."this problem that threatens to destroy the hobby as we know it".....<br /><br />I'd like to know what "problem threatens to destroy this hobby" ?<br /><br />And, who are "we" in this statement ?<br /><br />There is really nothing wrong with the current BB card hobby and a good<br /> many us enjoy all the aspects of collecting Sportscards. And, Forum's<br /> such as Net54 only enhance the joy....most of us derive from this hobby.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I really need to work today but let me throw out a few thoughts:<br /><br />Jeff, I caught Ryan's intent immediately, but like Leon I decided to turn it in a positive direction.<br /><br />Some very lofty ideas have been proposed here and I am not sure they can be actualized. If some all- encompassing organization ever does get formed, I would pay my membership dues and participate as best I can. But I do not have the organizational skills to do it myself- you really need a professional group here- so Jim, with my apologies, I can't go that route. Somebody else will have to be the architect.<br /><br />If it remains that all we have is the board and its group of collectors to monitor things, it may not be perfect but I think we can do a darn good job. When something unethical rears its ugly head, we have had quite a bit of clout in making it right.<br /><br />If I were a betting man, I don't think this blanket organization will ever come to pass, because I don't think there is a consensus of what people really want. Everyone has a different solution of how to solve the problems of card altering, shilling, etc. Even I don't have a definitive answer.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>So what you need to do is cross those non-guaranteed cards over into guaranteed holders. The ones that won't cross can be sold to other PSA collectors -- there's plenty of them, and some say they will sell for more than SGC cards, so you should have no problem there. That way you can get your cards guaranteed and you won't have to worry about microtrimming anymore -- if SGC grades a microtrimmed card and you can prove it, they'll buy it back at full value.<br /><br />If you love Dave Forman and SGC, I'd say it's about time you saw the light on this one. Seems a lot easier to me than trying to motive an entire hobby industry into getting its act together. Strict SGC collectors don't have the same concerns.<br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>If SGC is the only grading company -<br />then who decides that SGC screwed something up for you to get paid on the 100% guarantee?<br /><br /><br />I think multiple authorities (multiple trusted independent grading companies) is a much healthier situation.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I would like to join the group that Ryan envisions. Where can I learn the secret handshake and receive my decoder ring?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Wesley -- now you've got me: I'm not sure if YOUR post was tongue-in-cheek. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Actually, I think Ryan cares a great deal about the hobby. I just don't think he believes Armageddon is upon us. By the way, Ryan, your comic timing is admirable. And I agree with Ted's perspective, I don't think that the hobby is heading off the edge of a cliff, either. However, I do believe that the doctoring that goes on is a big problem but, alas, one that will not be solved unless we can somehow affect the money flow towards the auction houses and the grading companies in some meaningful manner. Remember, these businesses are businesses first and designed to make money, period. While they may have been started by people that care about the hobby they have financial responsibilities to their bottom lines and will behave accordingly to a large degree. Frankly, I don't see any mechanism that has been set forth that can impact these institutions in any meaningful manner. Perhaps it can happen, perhaps not. And Jim, of course I'd donate money towards any such organization - regardless of your stance on abortion. It's not the stance that bothers me, it was just your presentation of it that was offensive.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I've already given my two cents on this issue, but I figured I'd give two more, just to make sure what I wrote was not misconstrued in any way.<br /><br />I do not envision a high-powered association with the ability to act as a police force that will fine people who do not behave a certain way, blackball people who do not ascribe to a set of standards, or create definitions that will force collectors to build their collections a certain way. Nor do I envision a high-powered association that will cater to a market niche.<br /><br />I am not one to make suggestions that will prevent anyone from making an attempt at earning a living. There's too much hearsay in this hobby as it is, and cards change hands too many times that the risk of blackballing someone for selling an altered card THAT THEY DID NOT ALTER is a risky proposal.<br /><br />What I'm saying is that if collectors had a resource that they could turn to - even if they paid for a "membership" - where they could educate themselves, they would have the ability to make the proper buying decisions. I think people should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to avoid people who sell altered cards without disclosure (or even WITH disclosure). What's missing is the INFORMATION. If a collector does not know how to tell that the Goudey Ruth they're eyeing has rebuilt corners, and they really like the card, they're going to buy it regardless of whether the seller has adopted some Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval or not. But if they can detect the alteration, maybe they won't buy the card.<br /><br />Hopefully if this happened with enough frequency, the bad apples would be forced to adopt better business practices if they wanted to continue to be relevant in the marketplace - and if they didn't, they'd go away through natural selection.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206,<br /><br />Don't interpret this negatively but I am working on over 100 sets in high grade and the SGC cards just do not exist--and I don't have the time or interest to search for raw cards nor to play the crackout game.<br />For me it makes sense to stay with PSA and hope that Reza and crew are exercizing the sqame diligence as Dave and his team are.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...then you have nothing to worry about.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I have multiple objections to a hobby organization. In no particular order they are:<br /><br />1. Creating an effective sanction is going to be impossible unless people voluntarily submit to an internal dispute resolution mechanism, which many collectors, the shadier characters, and the current big players have no desire or incentive to do. I know I do not want to be part of any such scheme in my hobby life; bad enough I have to submit to the procedural nightmare that is the Bar. I'd hazard a guess that the big auction companies and slabbing companies are not going to sign on to a program that exposes them to potentially limitless liability. Without that right to sanction, however, no voluntary organization has any real teeth to it and therefore cannot have any impact. The most a group could do is to try and notify its members of a perceived bad egg, which is what we already do, and refuse to deal with it, which we already do with N54 and similar boards, and do not need any organization to do. <br /><br />2. I and many of the long time collectors here know more about what we collect than anyone in charge of a collector organization could possibly know. I agree with Frank, Chad, Ted, etc., that the only way to "clean up" the hobby is to teach collectors to rely on knowledge and information about the cards rather than on someone else telling you what you are collecting. As we have discussed over and over, it is impossible to really determine whether a card has been altered except if it has been inartfully altered or in very unusual situations (like the 34 Lajoie that REA outed). Short of having a hack job or before and after images, if the card has slipped into a slab, everyone has their opinions, but no one knows for certain. What concerns me is that an elected or appointed "biddy committee" would inject itself into controversies in the name of the organization, placing anyone who signs up for such an organized effort at the mercy of the least responsible representative acting on behalf of the organization. <br /><br />3. Assuming you could structure an organization with real teeth to it, you would have a huge political problem that I do not believe will ever be overcome. You are proposing to create a profoundly political organization that will inevitably be dominated by people with agendas to push and the time and money to push them. Again, being blunt and laying all my cards on the table, I view this effort as largely driven by certain collectors' panic over the grading companies (specifically PSA) slabbing very expensive prewar altered cards as near mint or better cards. As someone who does not collect them, I do not share the collecting agendas and views of those who are heavily involved in that aspect of the hobby. None of my doggies are in that fight. Potentially putting people whose views I do not agree with into a position to dictate to me what I can and cannot do as a card collector is a non-starter for me. I think many others share my view (although many are too wary of being flamed by the partisan interests on this board to say so).

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Maybe we should start all of our threads ironically?<br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />(edited to sign my name)

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>And what do we think the result will be? Will the auction houses and dealers really stop "restoring" and otherwise altering cards? Is there a conensus that if graded, this is a huge problem?<br /><br />There are plenty of watchdog groups around that have done nothing more than bring alleged wrongs to the community. Car dealers still roll back odometers, despite community and government regulation. Governments still wage morally-repugnant wars despite public outcry. I still pay more for car insurance and electricity, despite public and governmental regulation.<br /><br />What, really, is the pragmatic view to a favorable result?

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Warshawlaw,<br /><br />Couple of quick comments:<br /><br />1)You are making a lot of assumptions on what this collectors advisory council would do when that is still up for debate among collectors.<br /><br />2)What you are saying puts you at odds with what Dave Forman said. First he believes he can detect any trimmed card-you say its impossible to determine whether a card has really been altered.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Kevin</b><p>Once detailed information of identifying various cards alterations is made known (and it may in time), there will still be problems.<br /><br />Although many alterations can be categorized as clear and objective, there will be just as many that will fall into the subjective category and open to interpretation...just like grading. <br /><br />A hack job is identifiable but one that has been professionally (so to say) done can be difficult to determine at times. Those may be considered highly probable or suspect at best. As an example, a card with a quality rebuilt corner is "very hard" to detect, even by the most experienced graders. Now throw that same card into a slab and it makes it even more complicated and wide open for debate. Same can be said for all questionable alterations. It wil become a "prove it" arguement. <br /><br />IMHO having the knowledge will lead to making an educated decision based on clear objective findings but will not be a cure all. In fact it just may complicate matters. Nonetheless the info needs to get out there.<br /><br />I think one question that needs to be asked is; how are grading companies keeping updated with the lastest doctoring techinques an new alteration discoveries?

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Al said...<br /><br />"My feeling is that some sort of hobby group is a great idea, but a group that acts as a police force or drafts a "code of ethics" will be dead before it starts. What would make us think that an unethical person would ever abide by a "code of ethics"? Or that some sort of hobby group could get an auction house or dealer (or collector, for that matter) to change his practices?"...<br /><br />this is exactly what i have said a few times, including at the meeting in NYC. any dealer/auction house will gladly sign the "code of ethics" (they would be shooting themselves in the foot, if they didn't)...but who is to say that they wouldn't then just keep doing any and all of the crooked things they were doing before?<br /><br />i am all for the "hobby group", i just agree with Al here...a "code of ethics" would be pushing it.<br /><br />***i also agree with Barry, that this board (Net54) has a huge voice in the hobby, EVERYONE checks it out (lurking or posting)...either way, people see our discussions and hear our concerns & warnings...this in itself is a great "hobby group/association"...let's keep the important questions/topics coming, and maybe we can get some things resolved right here (as i think many of you have done in the past).<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.<br /><br />I understand you are among the most knowledgeable people out there when it comes to identifying altered/restored cards.<br /><br />I would love to talk to you at your convenience.<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />Perhaps you could e-mail me on when might be a good time.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Kevin</b><p>"I understand you are among the most knowledgeable people out there when it comes to identifying altered/restored cards."<br /><br />That's just a rumor. Remember I'm a newby here! <br /><br />I'll contact you soon.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks Kevin--I would appreciate it.<br /><br />jim

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"2)What you are saying puts you at odds with what Dave Forman said. First he believes he can detect any trimmed card-you say its impossible to determine whether a card has really been altered."<br /><br />No, you are misunderstanding what Dave and I said. According to you, he limited his comments to trimmed cards; I said "altered", not just trimmed. And what Dave said is not what SGC promises to the public, anyway. To quote from SGC's own web site: <br /><br />"The SGC Guarantee"<br /><br />"SGC guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the original submitter of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the original submitter may resubmit that card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade. THIS RESUBMISSION MUST BE REQUESTED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF RECEIPT FROM SGC. If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's option, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."<br /><br />Ever hear "put your money where your mouth is"? SGC used to guarantee its work product and limited its guarantee with this clause shortly after its start. I wrote an article on this point in VCBC. When SGC revises this guarantee to state that it will repurchase any altered card in one of its holders, we have something to go on. Right now, we have a popcorn fart; in other words, nothing. <br /><br />While I do not want this to devolve into another debate over grading, and I personally like SGC far more than any of its rivals and have entrusted them with my favorite cards, you are searching for certainty in an uncertain world, and it just does not exist. No organization is going to make you feel better about your collection, just like no grade on a slab is going to validate your collecting choices; you have to trust your own skills and knowledge.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Perhaps someone else at our dinner could verify it but it was my understanding from listening to Dave that he felt he could detect any alteration that had been done.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think Dave's position, shared by many including myself, is that SGC's top graders are as skilled as anybody in detecting trimmed and altered cards. But it is still possible that they could make a mistake, and they do stand behind their cards and will buy them back.<br /><br />What's not clear to me is at what level do they buy them back? At one's cost? At current market levels? Nevertheless, their expertise and policies are the best we have.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>At the dinner Dave felt his company was the best at spotting alterations, but he admitted that no one can detect every alteration. You asked him how accurate his comapny was and he did not answer. He was also asked how many cards he has "bought back" and he responded that was private company info.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I would certainly pay $100 for an association that would increase collector knowledge [? online seminars on card alterations, nuances of certain set variations etc.] <br /><br />A watchdog type group, like Net54, which would alert us about certain bad items on EBAY or in Auction House offerings would be also helpful. <br /><br />I don't think a high-powered, lobbying-type organization with threatened boycotts or penalties for bad sellers will ever happen.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>i think it's great in theory...and could work if certain kinks were knocked out/a consensus could be reached. however, i'd like to see the 'trimming/ alteration' focus expand to ALL cards...it's a problem in modern, vintage, all sports, and extends to various grading companies (i've yet to hear of a 'clean' grading company that has no 'allegations' against it re grading).