Should I be worried? BVG graded Fro-Joy

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Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>I just won via BIN ebay item #150086049567 (Babe Ruth Fro-Joy)---sorry I don't know how to post the link.<br /><br />I thought it looked okay in the scan and it's graded (albeit Beckett) and may have jumped the gun.<br /><br />My question is, do you think this is legit. I haven't sent payment yet, and would like to hear some opinions. I know I should have asked prior to purchase, but any input would be greatly appreciated. I hold the board's knowledge in high regard and hope someone can advise.<br /><br />Thanks, <br /><br />Mike<br /><br />edited title to be more specific

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />If the card is real then it's a good deal. I've heard that SGC stopped grading them because of the proliferation of fakes of Fro-joys. This by no means that this card is a fake. Enjoy it, don't have buyers remorse unless you can tell the card is a fake after your receive it.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I am one of those on the board that has faith in Beckett. I also think the price was REAL good. The seller's only negative was 16 months ago. It all looks good, but then again I'm not going to refund your money if you get hosed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D150086049567%26f vi%3D1&item=150086049567&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D150086049567%26f vi%3D1&item=150086049567&rd=1</a>

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>That's definately real. Beckett was the only grader for fro-joy a year or so ago.<br /><br />Mike, just copy the link into your message here to make it easier.<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150086049567&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D150086049567%26f vi%3D1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150086049567&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D150086049567%26f vi%3D1</a>

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Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>Cat,<br /><br />If the card turns out to be a fake, you could definitely brighten my day by trading your e90-2 or e103 Wagner for it. Pretty please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"That's definately real. Beckett was the only grader for fro-joy a year or so ago."<br /><br />SGC and PSA don't grade these cards - I'm assuming because they can't tell the difference between a real one or a fake one. Given that, I would not have faith that Beckett can do what neither SGC nor PSA can.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>If its real its a good deal, but.......<br /><br />cmoking hit it on the nose.<br /><br /> The reprints are not easy to tell from the authentic cards, even in person. Thats the reason Fro-Joys have a bad rap. I cant see how Beckett would know more than SGC/PSA about authenticating this PreWar issue.<br /><br />These cards will always have this cloud hanging over them. Of all vintage issues the Fro-Joys are the only one I stay away from.

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Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>What are the distinguishing features between real and fake?<br /><br />Is the paper stock that similar that graders can't distinguish, also surface<br />texture. It seems, if I recall correctly that a real one I saw not too long ago at Ft. Washington (B&E had it) had a smoother,glossier front.<br /><br />Any thoughts?

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Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>Looks like a good card to me, and I like the Beckett holders better than the PSA ones, but I would be somewhat worried if I bought a card that was real, but couldn't convince even the most esteemed experts that it was legit.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Obviously the Fro Joys are one of the trickiest sets, but, in general, Beckett<br />is reputable at identifying cards. I'd trust them to identify a real Goudey and<br />T206. Whether or not they can identify an original Fro Joy I don't know, but they have <br />a good reputation in general, and I'm sure they knew the set had been reprinted.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>There are 4 types of reprints, with 3 of them easy to spot.<br /><br />Colorized<br />Blue tint<br />B&W with light backgrounds (basically a B&W version of the Colorized cards)<br />B&W<br /><br />The authentic cards are B&W and are printed in a halftone photengraving process.<br /><br />David Rudd (cycleback) is the expert on printing and here is his page on the subject.<br /><a href="http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/sixteen.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/sixteen.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Ha ha Dave you beat me to it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>cmoking and Frank, I fully understand your apprehension towards these, I was even moreso a while back. But, no need to be a skeptic on this one... Referring to my prior post, The SGC grader rxplained via telephone, he COULD tell the difference, it was a policy issue. Two fro-joys I sub'd were authentic per this senior grader. It was a new corporate policy to exclude fro-joy. (Not all graders posess the same skill?) Another board member who had PSA slabbed fro-joys also convinced me they were auth. So I held onto them... The short of it, BVG slabbed them.<br /><br /> There was an lengthy fro-joy discussion here with indepth input from several experts including David Cycleback. Was well over a year ago. I was a newbee and you may not have been a member yet... *I'll try to locate that informative thread for you. <br /><br />Mike, I was considering buying that card, but had spent my weekly allowance already. Because of misperception and ignorance, this issue can be had dirt cheap. Because of the knowledge recieved here, I'd paid $50 for two raw and real examples. A little research can pay big in the future. <br /><br /><br /><br />*Can't locate the thread, but found an old reply from David Rudd, <br /><br />"Collectors should always be wary about the Fro Joys. The reprints come in a variety of styles. Some are obviously bad from a scan, others are better done. The average collector should purchase them from someone like MastroNet or Robert Edward Auctions, as they will be able to identify the real ones. Or from a fellow collector you know and trust, so that they can be returned if they turn out to be reprints. The real ones can be identified, but few eBay bidders or sellers know how."<br />

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Makes no sense why SGC would not grade something they can tell is authentic.....thats the reason they (grading companies) exist in the first place. The policy of not grading Fro-Joys is because of problems.<br /><br />Authentic Fro-Joy cards are actually a fairly scarce issue. Either a high % of the B&W cards we see on eBay all the time are fake, or somehow they are being discovered in large numbers in the last 8 years. In the 1980s they along with the Geo. Ruth Candy cards were not seen that often, no where near as much as they pop up on eBay now. I have no problem telling a fake Geo. Ruth Candy cards from a scan, there is one on eBay right now, ending in a few hours (fakes have design differences). But authenticating a raw B&W Fro-Joy from a scan, no way. And the odds are against it being authentic. The odds go up if it is slabbed, but some collectors still have their doubts and always will.

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Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>...Want to clarify that I know next to nothing about fro-joys other than info from scd book and David's website. <br /><br />I guess what I'm saying is that if you buy a 'real' fro-joy you should be somewhat worried if you ever intend to resell it because potential buyers will always question authenticity no matter who vouches for it. Regards

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I have sent three authentic Fro Joys to Beckett, & they got it right each time. As discussed earlier, a Fro Joy must be photo engraved to have a chance to be real. If you don't have a microscope, inspect Ruth's bat with a 10x loupe, & it should be covered with printing dots with no white patches. Below is fake with white patches on the bat.<br /><br /><img src="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e195/pgisme/fake2.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Always be a bit worried. Emotions are healthy, as long as they don't rule your decisionmaking.<br /><br />Haggle out a return policy in advance.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The main problem for the average collector is the real Fro Joys are scarce and few collectors<br />have owned one. Unlike a T206, they aren't sure what a real one looks like. The reprints are distinct from<br />the genuine cards, and folks like Rob Lifson will tell you it's not hard to tell the difference.<br />I looked at some of the better reprints, and it was obvious they were reprints.<br /><br />Beckett is a big card company, around since the 1980s. It's reasonable to believe that they've<br />handled real Fro Joys before.<br /><br />Also, there were Gene Tunney Fro Joy cards. These are just like the Ruth cards, but were not reprinted.<br /><br />It's not that I say the Fro Joys should never be purchased-- it's just that the average inquiry to <br />me about the cards is from a newbie considering buying the cards at a yard sale. With these <br />people, I tell them to not purchase just because there are so many reprints and he won't be able <br />to tell. If the cards are being sold in a Mastro, REA, Lipset or such auction, the buyer can <br />be confident of the authenticity. <br /><br />If the above Paul poster is Paul Griggs, I will testify that he's knowledgeable about Fro Joys and<br />has owned real ones. If Paul and Beckett agreed on a Fro Joy, that's a good sign.

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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Mike - Looks like you got a great deal.<br /><br /><img src="http://i13.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/87/ba/6786_1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>In light of what Steve said about SGC being able to tell fakes from real ones, I echo FKW's thoughts too: why won't they grade or authentica them if they can tell the difference? The same question goes for PSA too.<br /><br />I know I'd love to own a set of these Ruth cards if I could be comfortable that PSA and/or SGC could authentic them. But since they won't, I'm going to stay away.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I suspect that when the "big three" grading companies did grade them, well over 90% submitted were fake, so it got to be a big hastle. I think the policy usually is to give a grading credit if the card can't be slabbed, or am I wrong about that policy? Also, another consideration is that grading companies usually don't use more than 10x magnification during authentication, & that's not enough to be sure when authenticating Fro Joys in my opinion. I have eleven graded Fro Joys by PSA, SGC, & BVG. They all look good to me, so when they did slab them, they obviously had a pretty good idea of what they were doing.<br /><br /><br />edited to say thanks to David.

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Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>Thanks for all the replies. I feel somewhat more comfortable about<br />the transaction now.<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>honus3415</b><p>Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall having seen an "authentic" complete Fro-joy Ruth sheet listed in one of the major sports auctions somewhere within the last 5 years.<br /><br />Based on my recollection of the photo included in that auction, the Fro-joy cards had a black line which represented a border around each of the cards.<br /><br />I don't recall ever seeing a graded Ruth Fro-joy with any reminance of those lines. Now this would be understandable for those centered and trimmed on the small side. But would likely indicate "questionable authenticity" for those which are off-center like the one shown in the BVG holder.<br /><br />Is anyone able to provide a photo of an authentic complete sheet for a comparison of the distance away from the picture that the border line was supposed to be? It seems to me if a black border line did exist for these cards, it would show on the BVG card which seems badly overcut on the right. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>The Fro Joy sheets & cards were distributed differently. I believe the cards were factory cut, but not from the Fro Joy sheet with the dotted cut lines. The cards were give aways with Fro Joy ice cream, & the complete set of six could be redeemed for the sheet & a premium Ruth photo. I have seen several Ruth sheets & premium photos recently, but I have never seen an authentic sheet hand cut into cards. A good rule to follow, is that if you see a Fro Joy card with dotted cut lines, it's a fake cut from one of the many reprinted sheets.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I have a group of these from a Mastro auction. They appear to me to be handcut and do not have any dashed lines. The printing looks clear and good per the analyses on this thread.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I believe the upcoming Mastro auction will have a uncut sheet, the premium photo and envelope.<br /><br />I can give one hint for reprint identification. On the back of the real cards there is a black square line<br />around a portion of the text-- takes up about half of the bottom of the card. On the real card the line<br />is solid and connected all the way around. On the back of some of the good reprints, there are noticeable<br />breaks in the line-- it's not connected in areas.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Here's the line breaks on a fake that David posted about. There are reprints made by Repli-Cards that have no line breaks, but the card stock does not look & feel vintage.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e195/pgisme/FJ_fake.jpg">