Scarcest error - T card of Magee ?

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Posted By: <b>Ron Duff</b><p>What do you think?

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Are you asking what is the scarcest error? If so, the "Magie" is not the scarcest, not even within the T206 set.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The Joe Doyle card with ths "NAT'L" caption next to NY is probably the most scarce "error" card<br /> in the hobby and consequently the most valuable....in terms of what collectors are willing to pay<br /> for it.......to date, there are only 6 such cards known of Doyle.<br /><br />Here are the normal T206 cards of Magee and Joe Doyle with the only backs you will find their<br /> error cards with.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/amageedoyle.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>As Ted stated, the Doyle has about 6 known examples.<br /><br />The Magie has between 50 and 75 known examples.<br /><br />The Wagner has about 50 known examples.<br /><br />The Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis cards are also quite scarce, with only about 100-200 known.<br /><br />Jay Kaplan

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I would count the Magie as clearly an error, as his name is mispelled. It's not as clear whether<br />the Doyle variation is an error in the Magie sense, or a non-error variation. Doyle played <br />in New York, so the 'N.Y.' isn't a literal mistake, just incomplete. If it said 'N.Z.,' that<br />would be a clear error. I can see fair arguments for either side, but give the error crown to Magie <br />as that is clearly an error-- Magee didn't spell his name with an 'i.' <br /><br />Quoting Yogi Berra, if there isn't an error there isn't an error. And it isn't erroneous to say<br />Slow Joe played for New York.

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Posted By: <b>mvsnyc</b><p>FYI...<br /><br />ted- as i pointed out in another thread, PSA has graded 9 doyles, and i assume there are a few more kept "raw"...so probably 12 (double your estimate)...

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I just know you guys were waiting for me to weigh in on this...<br /><br />I think Cycleback has the right idea on Doyle. The rarity isn't an "error", actually it may well be a "correction". The card is correct, no error or mistake there. The more plentiful cards omit the league designation, that might be considered an error. <br /><br />I think I'm right about this, that I don't have it backwards.<br /><br /><br />I think that 80 to 100 Wagners might be nearer to an accurate count. I've seen one, know half a dozen folks who have or had one. I find it difficult to believe that I'm that well connected in the hobby as it is spread across the country. 50 seems low to me.<br /><br />And for some reason I thought there were more of Demmitt and OHara, but I'm willing to accept that 200 quantity for each. Who knows?

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Posted By: <b>mvsnyc</b><p>doyle story: there is joe doyle & larry doyle...originally they had titled this card "doyle, ny nat'l", but it was clearly the wrong doyle, because his hands were above his head in a pitchers wind-up...so it was mistakenly depicted the wrong doyle...they quickly corrected this flub, by taking "ny nat'l" off the rest of production, mistake fixed, very very rare card created...<br /><br /><br /><br />p.s. i just got a demmitt 3 & o'hara 2...so i'm happy with those low estimates <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Great....the more the merrier....maybe that will drive down the price on these Doyle cards.<br />I would hope that a huge "find" of Doyle errors would be discovered so that all of us could<br />afford this mysterious card. I need one for my Piedmont-only set.<br /><br />Thanks for correcting me.<br /><br />But, do we really know if some of those GRADED Doyle's are not "fakes" ? ?<br /><br />Remember, at least one "infamous" one did get GRADED.<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>MVSNYC<br /><br />I might add....they DID and they DID NOT correct the Joe Doyle card. Yes, they caught their mistake<br />very quickly....quicker than the MAGIE mistake. And, that's why both Magie and Doyle (error) only<br /> exist with PIEDMONT backs (150 and 350, respectively).<br /><br />But, on the "corrected" Joe Doyle they did not add "AMER." for the league. The regular Joe Doyle<br /> card is the only card in the entire set of 524 cards that does not have which league he is in......<br />of the dual teams which shared the same city.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I find for the 1st time on this Forum that I am not in agreement with you.<br /><br />I DO NOT agree with Cycleback's comments on the Joe Doyle card.<br /><br />Furthermore, there are many more than 200 - T206 "near" sets out there<br /> that include the Demmitt and O'Hara vars. So, with that fact alone......<br />I would say there are at least double if not triple that many cards of these<br /> two Subjects.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>mvsnyc</b><p>ted- how do you know that there are 200 "near" T206 sets? just curious...

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>After 30+ years in this hobby I have gotten to know many T206 collectors and dealers. Not as many<br />as 200, but a fair amount. And, I am by no means, a "high-profile" person in this hobby. Therefore,<br /> by what I know and have seen over the years, I can extrapolate and say with certainty, that there<br /> are many more than 200 (St Louis versions of) Demmitt and O'Hara in circulation. In my experience<br /> in putting together 4 near complete (521, 520, 518 and 400+ cards) T206 sets, I must have seen, or<br /> had at least 50 each of these two tough variations.<br /><br />And, in 30 years of collecting, I can think of at least 60 guys I know or have helped "complete" their<br /> T206 sets. And, if I can recall that many, then there must be at least 3 x that many sets out there. <br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>you sound qualified enough to me...i respect your estimates...

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Ted,did you really just say there are "many more than 200 near sets" ?? I know weve had threads asking for sets on the board and we come up with about 20-30 current and not all of them include the Demmitt or O'Hara. I will never believe theres as many as 600 each of them and im willing to bet that between the 2 that 600 is a high estimate. We dont see them that often,maybe 10 a year each but we are also seeing the same ones some of those times,these arent 10 new ones each year.<br /><br /> 600 would put them in the same category as some of the tougher southern league players as far as population.If everything equaled out as far as toughness,then we would be talking 2000 cards of each southern leaguer,5000 of each common and that would bring the population of t206s to be about 3 million,triple any other estimate ive heard. Those 200 near sets would then be only 1/30th of all t206 cards out there<br /><br /> Ted even if you saw 110 of each over 30 years dont you think some of them are the same exact card? For each one youve seen twice that lowers your 5x number(which would equal 550,not that i agree with that) by 5.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Did I say there were 600 T206 sets out there....I guess I implied it by my "5 x" factor.<br /><br />That was a MISTAKE in typing, I meant to type a "3 x" factor. And, that translates to<br /> about 200 "near" sets.<br /><br />But, what I did say....is that in extrapolating from the experience I have had, there are<br /> more than 200 Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards out there.....my guess is somewhere<br /> between 400 - 600.<br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br />edited to state a "3 x" multiplying factor, instead of "5 x" factor in above post.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Ted i also didnt say you said 600 sets. I said 600 referring to the Ohara/Demmitt numbers only<br /><br /><br /> Adding** When it doubt Ted,start a thread.See how many current owners of these cards you can find

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I don't think this Forum needs another T206 Survey for a while.....I'll pass on this one.<br />But, thanks for suggesting it.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I didn't as absolute statement say the Doyle wasn't an error-- and in fact said I saw both sides to the argument. Though,<br />in my opinion, the Magie is the error of the two.<br /><br />For most card collectors, from vintage to modern, an error card is a card that has a clear<br />numerical, spelling or other error or blooper-- irrelevant to if there is another card that corrects it.<br />Magie is clearly an error. The Barry Bonds card that pictures Johnny Ray is clearly an error. NY vs NY Amer. <br />is not clearly an error, as neither in an of itself is wrong. One variation is incomplete, but not incorrect. <br /><br />Say someone asked me to fill in my name and I wrote simple, "David" when my full name was required. The secretary<br />at the desk wouldn't say what I wrote was an error, as my name is David, but that I was supposed to fill out<br />my full name. When I left the secretary, the official might say, "Bye David, have a nice day." In a similar<br />vein, it is not an error to say Doyle played in or for New York. The secretary at the desk wouldn't<br />say Mr. Doyle's answer was an error, but that the form required him to write out which New York team he<br />played for.<br /><br />As I suggested earlier, there has to be an error in and of itself for something to be an error. That two cards <br />differ from each other doesn't make one an error. Neither or both could be errors. There are 1981 Fleers where <br />the regular and 'corrected' are errors. <br /><br />If someone were to say me it's an error to say Doyle played for New York, I'd say, "Where'd he play then? <br />Chicago?"

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>DAVID<br /><br />There is no discussion regarding the normal Joe Doyle card. So, it's missing its League identifier......No<br /> big deal.<br />The Joe "Doyle N.Y. NAT'L" card is a big deal and a true ERROR....Joe Doyle never played for the Giants.<br />He had a short pitching career with the NY Highlanders. T206 Quality Control caught this mistake very<br />quickly and stopped the presses when the new 350 Series was first being produced. Piedmont was always<br /> the 1st Tobacco brand printed and this card never progressed beyond that printing. <br /><br />Indeed, unless you can come up with a comparable, pre-War, error card that is as scarce, this T206 Doyle<br /> card remains the scarcest (and, consequently the most valuable).<br /><br /><br />Now, let's talk about the MAGIE error....is it simply the result of a spelling error.....I don't think so ? My 1905<br /> Spalding Guide has a Syracuse (NY State Lge.) player by the name of Magie. Magie became an ML prospect<br /> about the time Sherry Magee joined the Phillies. So, perhaps the T206 designers, initially, confused Mr. Magie<br /> with Sherry Magee ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Ted....<br /><br />I don't think we're that far apart. I could accept the 200 count, but I agree that I think there are more. I'm close to having the white boarder cards, less the big 4. I have Demmitt and lack O'Hara. <br /><br />Please look at that post again.<br /><br />1. The rare Doyle isn't an error... I still think that's right.<br /><br />2. I think there are more Wagners out there than the 50 or so that some folks talk about. <br /><br />Now I think you can agree with 1 & 2.<br /><br />3. I can accept the idea of 200 Demmitts and 200 O'Haras, but I thought there were more. I kinda still think there are more. <br /><br /><br />I'm pretty sure about 1 & 2. I don't feel very strong about the 200 count. I think you agree with that.<br /><br /><br />And Ted, I still owe you a beer.<br /><br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Ted,the Magie portrait came from a Carl Horner photo and its the same picture that was used for his w600 and can be seen in the 1906 w601 Phillies composite photo as well. Its very likely it was a spelling error,plus theres plenty of other spelling errors in the set so its not like they were perfect,his just happened to be corrected for some reason

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>FRANK<br /><br />Ole Buddy.....1st how can you agree with Cycleback, when he keeps editing what he said initially,<br /> and when you respond....then go back to read his post a 2nd time, and it has been re-written.<br /><br />Now listen to me....I'm going to get "deep" here. To me the Magie and Joe Doyle error cards are a "key".<br />They are the "mini Rosetta stones", which have led to our improved understanding of this Monster set.<br /><br />These two cards "sparked" my theory (noted in that famous EPDG thread sometime back) that PIEDMONT<br /> Tobacco was the "prime" Brand and the 1st backs to be printed at every phase of the T206 production.<br />Indeed, Piedmont is the ONLY brand that encompasses all 522 cards of the set. It fully covers the 150 Series,<br />350 Series (which includes all 86 Minor Lgrs and the 2nd run of all the 48 Southern Lgrs) and the 460 Series.<br />None of the other 14 Brands are fully represented on all the Subjects....as the Piedmont brand is.<br /><br />So, let's talk about "Slow Joe" Doyle. As I said in a prior post the normal "Doyle N.Y." card of him<br />is no big deal....it is a minor error of omission.<br />The "Doyle N.Y. NAT'L" card of him is a really, really big deal....and is indeed an error card. How can<br /> anyone say it isn't ? It's obvious what happened here....the T206 dudes confused him with Larry Doyle.<br />Don't take my word for it, look this up....Joe Doyle had a short pitching career with the Highlanders.<br />He never played with the Giants.<br /><br /><br />JOHN D<br /><br />You make my argument for me regarding the MAGIE error....you stated "Its very likely it was a spelling<br /> error, plus theres plenty of other spelling errors in the set so its not like they were perfect, his just<br /> happened to be corrected for some reason".<br /><br />So, with all the other spelling errors....why did they choose to correct only this one ?<br />It's not the spelling error, I am telling you. The T206 dudes were once again confused, this time<br /> Sherry Magee with Mr Magie (I don't know his 1st name, but I will find out more about this guy).<br /><br />Bill Heitman once said this that the T206 designers were very diligent in keeping up on this set's<br /> player trades, retirements, etc. Spelling errors were trivial to them, but identifying the players<br /> with their pictures and teams was paramount.<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>OK... I'm trying to fire up old brain cells for a moment.<br /><br />I think I got it.<br /><br />Maybe the Doyle NY Nat'l card is the first one out. They have Piedmont backs. Very quickly the folks that tend to the cards (not the tobacco co, they care less, and not the printers, they just do as they're told, but the guys who decide who to make a card of..) those guys realize that Doyle NY Nat'l is wrong and is an error (please allow me a Cycleback-style takeback of what I said above), that it isn't Larry Doyle but is Joe Doyle and that the card should be Doyle NY Amer. That info is conveyed to the printers, and their "easier" quick fix is to simply eliminate the "Nat'l" part of the caption.<br /><br />And maybe this correction is happening at about the same time the Plank card is being removed. And maybe the Magie spelling is being corrected...<br /><br />At my request, years ago, my wife got me a facsimile of the Rosetta Stone for Christmas. I love it. She's not keen on it. Most folks frown at it and think nothing. Once in a rare while someone is through the house and they are impressed.<br /><br />DaveBikeBack, I think Ted is right... if he'll up his count of Wagners a bit.<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Ted,Magie isnt the only player with 2 different spellings so they obviously cared some.Off the top of my head,Willett,Mullin,Nicholls and Doolan all have names spelled right and wrong so someone mustve said something. Maybe it was too big of a deal to change Magie to Magee so they left the others. I cant see them mixing up a superstar who had a picture that was used at least three times before with some guy who never made the majors

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your paragraph starting with...."Maybe the Doyle NY Nat'l card....is a nice summation of what<br /> probably happened back about 93 years ago in the T206 "drawing room", regarding Doyle.<br /><br />But, your following sentence regarding Magie is not exactly so. His error card only exists with<br /> a Piedmont 150 back. So, the correction was made about 1 yr. prior to the Doyle error; when,<br /> the 1st Series of T206's were printed.<br /><br />Regarding your Rosetta Stone artifact....I will email you....as this subject is one I am fond of.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Ted,<br />Don't you think a good percentage of those "sets" you have know of over the years might not have had Demmitt and O'Hara's in them. That is the case with a lot of the sets in that survey on here a few months back.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>This thread started out asking if the Magee error is the scarcest error card in the hobby and the answer is obviously no. There are, for example, a few Old Judge errors that are much scarcer. A Dalyrymple spelling error that was found a few years ago is much scarcer than the Magee.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>John,<br /><br />I don't know about all of the spelling errors you mentioned. But wrt Mullin/Mullen and Willett/Willetts, both were corrected but on different cards of the same players. <br /><br />Willetts is spelled that way on the throwing card, but is corrected to Willett on the batting pose card. Mullen is spelled that way on the portrait, but corrected to Mullin on the batting and throwing cards. <br /><br />So it's not that they went back and corrected spelling on an original image, so that one pose has two different spellings. The different spellings were updated on different poses. With the Magie/Magee, the same portrait card has both spellings. <br /><br />I don't know about the others you mentioned, but it seems to me that the Mullin and Willett errors were corrected "going forward" only, and not on anything that had already had the printing heads designed and cut incorrectly. I think.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Joanne,i said those players have cards with correct and incorrect spelling to prove what i said afterwards as a possible reason why only Magie/Magee was changed and that was maybe they changed the Magie plate and found out it was too much of a problem so they didnt change the others right away,meaning they waited for another card of the player to change the spelling. <br /><br /> That was just something i threw out there. It couldve been they changed the Magie spelling and they were going to correct the others when they noticed them but they had a deadline to get the cards out so they didnt bother.<br /><br /> Maybe he was the only player to say something about it,and just like the Wagner theory that he wanted them to stop producing the cards,Magee wanted him name spelled right or they couldnt use it

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Oh I see. That makes sense - they changed the spelling or whatever on one card, Magie/Magee, realized it was a pain and stopped doing it on other cards. Maybe they only then corrected what they thought were true factual errors - wrong team, player or league, but decided to only correct minor spelling mistakes on future cards.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I know some one this board will think this nuts, but the best way to identify the rarest and scarcest<br />error cards is to start by identifying error cards then:<br /><br />Rarest: the card where the fewest is known to exist.<br /><br />Scarcest: the most expensive. This an imperfect but probably most reliable way to identify scarcity (remember<br />rarity and scarcity are different concepts. Rarity is strictly a measurement of a card's population,<br />while scarcity is a relative measurement of a card's population versus demand for the card).<br /><br />I would argue (and believe am accurate in saying) that the T206 Honus Wagner is the scarcest (I didn't<br />say rarest) card, because it's the most expensive across the grade spectrum. And, similarly, the scarcest <br />error is the error card that consistently sells for the most money.<br /><br />The Mickey Mantle isn't the rarest card in the 1952 Topps set, but it's the scarcest-- that's why it's so<br />expensive in all grades.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The following T206's are spelling errors of NO CONSEQUENCE.....<br /><br />George Brown (Chi) in 150 series....should be Browne<br />George Brown (Wash) in 350 series....ditto....so why didn't they correct it ?<br /><br />Mickey Doolin (port) in 150 series....should be Doolan<br />Mickey Doolan (fldg) in 350 series....corrected<br />Mickey Doolan (bat) in 350/460 series....corrected<br /><br />George Mullin (horiz) in 150 series....correctly spelled<br />George Mullen (port) in 350 series.....should be Mullin<br />George Mullin (bat) in 350/460 series....correctly spelled<br /><br />Chief Myers (bat) in 350 series....should be Meyers<br />Chief Myers (catch) in 350 series....should be Meyers<br /><br />Simon Nicholls (fldg) in 150 series....correctly spelled<br />Simon Nichols (bat) in 350 series....should be Nicholls<br /><br />Ossee Schreck in 350 series....shortened from Schreckengost<br /><br />Ed Willett (bat) in 350 series....correctly spelled<br />Rd Willetts (throw) in 350/460 series....should be Willett<br /><br />And, the following players names are misspelled....listed here are the<br /> corrected names....<br /><br />Coveleski, Josh Clarke, Dinneen, Donahue, Hannifin, Kissinger, Krueger,<br /> Livingston, Puttmann, Pfiester, Quillin, Viola<br /><br />So, my friend....it's not a simple MIS-SPELLING that explains why the T206 dudes<br /> stopped the presses on the MAGIE card....it's something else ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> It looks like they corrected some of the names and didnt care about others,and got others wrong after being right and you dont even have all of them listed that were wrong.I still say they knew that was Magee because it was a known photo at the time they borrowed from at least 3 other sources.I dont think they couldve mixed up those 2 players when the photo was from 1906 or prior and hes in a Phillies uniform<br /><br /><br /> The old judge set has some names spelled wrong that were never right,some were corrected in the same pose and some in different poses. Do you think all of those that were corrected were done so not to confuse one player with another?<br /><br /><br /> The t213 set which has the same fronts as T206s has a Solly Hofman spelled Hofmann and a corrected version spelled Hofman.It also has a Kid Elberfeld spelled wrong that they never corrected<br /><br /> The mayo 1895 set has a Rusie spelled Russie and one spelled Rusie yet didnt correct Ed Del"e"hanty and Otis Stock"s"dale<br /><br /> The m101-5 set has a John Lavan spelled Lavin then corrected yet they didnt correct Del Gainor(Gainer) Harry Coveleski"e" and Charles Comiskey(Comisky)<br /><br /> The 1948 Leaf set has Gene Hermanski spelled wrong Hermansk and they corrected it yet they didnt bother to fix Phil Caverretta(Caveretta),Johnny Vandeermeer,Bob Elliott(Elliot)or Larry Jensen(Jansen)<br /><br /> Its happened before the t206 set,its happened since

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Just responding to your earlier question.....<br />"Don't you think a good percentage of those "sets" you have know of over the years might not<br /> have had Demmitt and O'Hara's in them. That is the case with a lot of the sets in that survey<br /> on here a few months back."<br /><br /><br />The 60 (or so) T206 sets that I referred to in the earlier post are mostly those of "old veteran"<br /> collectors. And, over 90% of these sets had both the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations.<br /><br />And, I am not surprised that a good number of the "new breed" of nearly completed T206 sets<br />are missing these two tough cards. It takes time to acquire the more expensive cards in this set<br />such as these two. I recently sold two Demmitt's and two O'Hara's to 4 different collectors, all<br />of whom, had waited many years to get these cards for their sets.<br /><br />TED Z <br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Magie is the only true error in the T206 set.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>If Demmitt and O'Hara variation cards are available in equal numbers, how come the Demmitt consistently sells for more on ebay and in auctions? Just wondering...

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BOB M<br /><br />My experience with these two cards is that Demmitt is usually in somewhat better shape than O'Hara.<br />This is anectdotal, but the 4 Demmitt's that I've had were all a grade (or 2) better than the O'Hara's<br />I have had or have seen. I don't know if that answers your concern.<br /><br />Scot Reader's analysis suggests there are 100 - 300 cards (equally) of Demmitt and O'Hara. <br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />