What is RARE?

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>The word RARE and SCARCE are two words that seem to be liberally used in the hobby. You see it everyday... a seller has a RARE Piedmont tobacco card (T206) for sale. Just where do we draw the line for using this term?<br /><br />A rare card is a card that has less than "X" known examples? What is "X"?<br /><br />Scarce - do people think RARE and SCARCE are the same? Are they interchangeable terms when applied to the population of cards or certain cards?<br /><br />What is "X" for everyone?<br /><br />Is the Wagner T206 RARE or SCARCE? Relative to most other T206 cards it is probably scarce. <br /><br />People seem to confuse RARE/SCARCE with DESIRABLE in this hobby. Can you please post your thoughts on the subject? First though, give your opinion of RARE - what is "X"?

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>Obviously Rare is one, but then comes another question; if there is only one the idea of several people coveting it or collecting is pretty silly. If there are 10 or 12 of something out there but 100's of people wanting it - its rare. <br /><br />The definition of rare would have to include how many people want it.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>according to webster:<br /><br />scarce- deficient in quantity or number. not plentiful.<br /><br />rare- unusually fine. excellent, splendid. seldom met with.<br /><br /><br />when one analyzes these definitions, it is interesting that scarce seems to address "quantity"...and rare seems to address "quality"...<br /><br />by the way guys, news flash: a T206 Wagner IS scarce...<br /><br />how many Wagners do you normally come in contact with (other than seeing them at Nat'l Shows)?<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Rare is an absolute. Ala '10 or fewer is rare.' Though what numbers constitute rare (10 or fewer,<br />25 or fewer, other) is a matter of opinion, and may vary from person to person.<br /><br />Scarcity is relative, demand relative to supply. An okay though imperfect measure of scarcity<br />is market price, as this measures supply versus demand. As scarce requires demand, an item can <br />be rare but not scarce (one exists but no wants it), and an item can be scarce but not rare (10,000<br />exist but 2 million people want them).<br /><br />In collecting slang, scarce usually refers to something that is not rare, but limited in supply and tough<br />to get-- at least tougher to get compared closely related items. The 1974 Topps 'Washington NL' error cards<br />aren't rare, but are tougher to find than the San Diego versions and other singles, and the market prices reflect this.<br />Thus, they are commonly called scarce-- at least in the context of 1974 Topps. <br />

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Since I mainly look at eBay, and you will always find the rare stuff in big auction house auctions.<br /><br />Scarce/Rare...... If on average I see an example (type) on eBay every 2-3 months.<br />(ie. R337, W504, Big Head, T211, PCL Exhibit, etc.) <br /><br />Very Rare.....if I see 1 example (type) on eBay every year.<br />(ie. D303-2 Mothers, D350-3, Frederick Foto, T214, T217, Texas Tommy, J=K, 1923 Fleer, etc.) <br /><br />Very Very Rare....... would be if Ive seen 1-4 different example offered in last 8 years.<br />(ie. Just So, E92 Croft "red", 1910 Punch, Big Eater, T208, E222, Derby Cigar, Holmes to Homes, Tarzan, etc.) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to add....... IMO as far as numbers in existance the T206 Wagner may be one of his more common cards from his playing days.<br /><br />Not including the 1913 era game cards, how many other vintage Wagner cards exist in numbers of 60-75 known examples? Maybe E90-1, E92, E95, E254???? I can think of quite few Wagner that probably exist in number of less than 20..... like E224, E125, E286, E107, D304, D322, E90-2, J=K, etc..

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>'Scarce' does have a quantitative bent when indicating deficiency or inadequacy. Secondarily, it does at times refer to the unusual or uncommon<br />attributes of a referent which gives it some ostensible synonymity with respect to the<br />word 'rare'. I say that it is ostensibly so, because the uncommonness is<br />most often a criterion of economic/quantitative analysis.<br /><br /> 'Rare' imho is the term of choice in our domain as it includes such laudatory descriptions as EXCELLENT,EXCEPTIONAL,EXTRAORDINARY,and SINGULAR.<br /><br /> Having made these delineations, I would now say that my T206 Green Cobb<br />is, indeed, RARE. Certainly, it is not scarce, given the primary definition<br />above. Given the secondary definition(particularly with respect to economic elements), it may well be considered scarce as it is unusual and uncommon, with some apparent subjectivity militating against the precision of this contention. For me, the secondary definition pales in comparison to the much stronger descriptive,RARE. <br /> Yes, I would be pleased that my Cobb is scarce in terms of the supply and demand equation, but I am absolutely delighted that it is aesthetically<br />one of the rarest of 206 gems.<br /> <br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />Barry<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In this hobby the term "rare" is used liberally to sell anything that is deemed to be even slightly tough. We discussed puffery on a different thread, and terms such as "extremely rare" and "extraordinary example" are used far too often to describe items that don't merit such accolades; and the more they are used, the less impact they have. If anything, the word "rare" is just a simple marketing tool.

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>A T206 Wagner in excellent or better condition is rare...a T206 Wagner is scarce.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I don't think you can determine what is rare, without reference to RARITY. Something cannot be simply beautiful or deeply appreciated - and thus rare, its beauty must be so uncommon as to establishing rarity of such presentation.<br />Rare to me requires using the word in a sentence......as in, this animal is rarely encountered (aka white rhinos). The idea being, that specimens of rarity are more known by the story telling than in first hand experience, and that very few can personally be attained in-hand. I would think a number less than 10 equals rare. <br />4 Carat Internally Flawless Fancy Yellow diamonds are rare. They exist, but you are unlikely to ever see or come across one (unless Leon turns to collecting diamonds and posts a scan for us <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>).<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I call D311s "very scarce" but not quite rare <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Nathan</b><p><br />The steak I had last night was rare!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good one Nathan. In fact, we can now construct a rarity scale:<br /><br />1-2 known= rare<br />3-4 known= medium rare<br />more than 5 known= well done

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Nathan,<br /> Mine was a 1.75, rare to medium rare with a warm center and perfect flavor..... Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Good luck on the Dummy Taylor cards.....

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>In the comic world, Rare is fewer than 10, scarce is fewer than 50.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In numismatics, they use terms such as "rare" and "exceedingly rare" not merely as adjectives, but as specific references for how many of a certain coin is known to exist. We could even create our own scale:<br /><br />Exceedingly Rare= Four Base Hits<br />Very Rare= T208<br />Rare= E107<br />Very scarce= E103, N175<br />Scarce= T204, E93<br />Common= T205, T206<br /><br />Obviously, many more examples could be found for each category, and of course there would be some disagreement, but at least we could begin to assign real meaning to a rarity scale, instead of using the term as a marketing tool to sell almost anything.

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Posted By: <b>Rich Rubin</b><p>Searching title and description, there are currently 1,335,347 rare items for sale on ebay.

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Posted By: <b>Dave G</b><p>To put this is another perspective - I've just sold via Ebay a tobacco album from Camerons & Sizers, The New discovery album - it was the only one I had ever seen, apart from the listing in the ACC and having seen a few pages. In comparison - I must have seen over 10 Allen & Ginter Champions albums, and at least 5 Goodwins Champions albums over the past year. So, in light of the above discussions the Camerons album is truly RARE, while the champions albums are merely SCARCE - and actually relatively common. But - the champions albums are more topical since they contain baseball images - this doesn't make them RARE, but it does make them more DESIRABLE to a certain group of collectors.<br /><br />Just another point of view on the use of descriptors.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>After a nice steak dinner with Andy B. and Scott B. I am all set to comment on rarity. I like Rich M's assertion of rare equals 10 or less and scarce is 50 or less..... and add extremely rare as 5 or less known. I also like Barry's deacription of rarity vis a vis sets and agree there too.....As a collector of mainly scarce and obscure cards I really enjoy the hunt....as much as filling that last hole to finish a set, I am sure. regards

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You didn't read the whole thread. I'M the one who suggested less than 10 first, and I want full credits in the new official ACTS OF VINTAGE CARDS to be passed by the NY mob over their steak dinner. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Fair enough....you can have the credit for rare but Rich still gets credit for scarce.....

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>0 = rare<br />1 = rare<br />2 pepperoni & chocolate chip cookies = plentiful<br />'rare find' = was cut out of a guide earlier in the week<br /><br />As I wordily said before, rare is an absolute while scarce is relative. You can pick an absolute number for<br />what counts as rare. With scarce items there is no predetermined absolute quantity. You<br />can't say 100 or 50 constitutes scarce. Scarce is a matter of supply versus demand. If there aren't enough to <br />to go around to meet demand, it's scarce. If there are more than anyone wants, it's not scarce.<br /><br />Of course, rare and scarce are not unrelated. The lower the population the better than chance that it's scarce.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i also like the break down &lt;50= scarce...&lt;10= rare & &lt;5= extremely rare...<br /><br />BUT, how about a Cobb back (there are about 13 known)...and the Doyle? (about the same amount)...<br /><br />i would say they are EXTREMELY RARE...

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>I had this debate with a dealer in St. Louis. He gave me the best description of rare that I've heard yet:<br /><br />If I have it.....and you need it......then its rare.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>12 or less in existance has always been my idea of rare. Not that I would draw the line, if 13 of something are known to exist. I have quite a few cards where there are twelve or less known. Many years ago I picked up a Nadja Bresnahan after the 12 were discovered in St. Louis. That's kind of where I came up with the figure 12. Just kind of a random number I came up with. Nothing more, nothing less. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>are there 13 doyle's? Really?<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i was just flipping thru the old Harris T206 auction catalog...i took note of some of the copy used to describe some of the "rarer" cards...have a look...<br /><br /><br />scarce= lundgren, chicago<br />difficult= m.brown, cubs shirt<br />rather difficult= kleinow, boston<br />very difficult= elberfeld, wash. port, cobb green<br />extremely difficult= o'hara, st. louis<br />rare= magie error, plank

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i approximated 13 doyles...<br /><br />PSA has graded 9 of them...and i know there are several raw...

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm surprised there are that many Doyles known. Are you sure PSA hasn't graded some of those cards two or more times?

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>according to the PSA pop report, they have graded "9" of them...i cannot answer your question, i have no idea whether or not they have graded some more than once...my guess is NO. why would someone have such a "rare" piece re-graded?

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>very rare = a card i cant afford and cant find<br /><br />rare = a card i cant afford but does pop up once in<br /> awhile<br /><br />scarce = a card i can afford but cant find<br /><br />common = a card i can afford or have

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Michael- what I find interesting is that there haven't been more than a couple of Doyles sold at auction. If there are a dozen of them out there that means that nearly all the deals have been private. That is unusual for a card where an established market price is not easy to come by.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Barry- i hear what you are saying...i was alittle surprised that PSA had graded so many...<br /><br />what's even weirder...from what i can tell, there is only ONE of them on PSA's T206 set reg page (soloway)...

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Posted By: <b>Rob NYC</b><p>Rare: few are known to exist - like the T206 Plank<br /><br />Scarce: many are known to exist but not readily available - kind of like that rumor back in the 90s that Beckett was buying up a lot of those "hot insert cards" to create a perceived scarcity.<br /><br />