A new concept....Vintage Baseball Card Forum Auctions?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With all of the talk about how well ebay is doing, and there not being much of an alternative to everyday selling (except BST), would there be any interest in a Vintage Baseball Card Forum Auction, as on ongoing everyday service? There would be a small cost probably based on the seller paying 3%-5% and no buyers fee. It could be for $5 items or $50,000+ items. I have been in talks with a few s/w people about it...lmk your thoughts..It's a long shot and probably not feasible, but ya' never know...Right now it's just an idea.....best regards

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Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p>Leon, that's a great idea. Ebay just plain sucks and it would be nice doing auctions with people who know their stuff for a change.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree...but would there be enough of an audience? Ebay is huge....

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>from how do you regulate who does the bidding to how you determine who wins. Would you let the auctioneers set their own terms and conditions or would they have to adhere to certain standard of practice? How would disputes be resolved and by who? Could the seller "redline" certain people he or she doesn't want to do business with? <br /><br />Also, why would this be more attractive to a seller than simply listing a card at a best minimum offer?<br /><br />Does this indicate a trend towards charging sellers a commission on BST sales? Is that in the works?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I understand your thoughts and potential issues. There are many. Without an idea and a need nothing ever happens though. Two ways could be.<br /><br />1. Sort of like the old Teletrade days...where folks would send in their cards.....<br />2. Sort of like ebay, with each doing their own thing, but hopefully making more sense.....<br /><br />I realize this is a very long shot....

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't want their to be a charge for BST...I like it the way it is..I have had several people bring that up to me....so the answer is No...the auction thing would be different....but again, not sure what the heck right now....

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Posted By: <b>jP</b><p>and i would think it could do very well here, so as long as all the bases are covered. i hope this happens.<br><br>my collection: <a href="http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Edited - misread your statement leon.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />It's not going to be as easy as it sounds. You will need at least 3 employees. You need a marketing person. You need a web designer and most importantly you need somebody that will sink the money into the project and has some legal expertise.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>my sitehost had free "auction" software and I downloaded it (a while ago).<br /><br /><br />I thought it would be good to have just in case I, or someone else, wanted to have a little private auction (possibly for even one lot).<br /><br />I have a couple of cards that a bunch of people have said "If you ever look to sell it - please contact me".... so when I saw this auction software... I thought if the time ever came - the fair way to handle something like that (multiple people wanting first crack at the same item) would be to have a private little auction and invite those interested in the card. (that was the reasoning for downloading it).<br /><br /><br />Anyway - if you want me to set you up on the site as an admin --- so that you can tinker around with the software, just email me.<br /><br />here is the software on my site (I've never touched it).<br /><br /><a href="http://www.internetville.com/auction/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.internetville.com/auction/</a><br /><br /><br /><br />If it proves good for you, you can get it for your own servers --- or we could run auctions right off of my site (but I am going to need the help of some of our lawyers to make sure I am not liable for anything).<br /><br /><br />anyway - if you are interested email me.... joe@internetville.com<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>That's a great idea Leon, I'd rather buy/sell cards on this site. It would be my #1 choice when looking for rear cards!

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Posted By: <b>RayB</b><p>N54 B/S/T for prewar is one of the best conduits for buying and selling what I collect. Let's not muddy the water.<br />Leon; I respectfully say no to your idea, flat out. Please don't do it.<br />Thanks.<br />RayB

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>count me out! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Leon,<br />a very good brainstorm...don't see why it has to get out of hand...could you limit the audience to Board members? you would somehow need to register the users that participate...perhaps it could just be used as a means to decide who wins an item,...leave the rest of the transaction out of it (terms mgmt, etc)...??<br />intriguing!

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />You've got to be kidding me. If your really going to put this together don't post the information on a public forum. Barry Sloat and a host of other guys frequent this forum...they are your competition. Keep it low-key.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Would we have to buy a banner from ourselves?.. I'm in

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I wanted to repost this from the Doug Allen thread. I wrote this 11/28/06. I think it is the essence of the problem. It was written specifically to Doug, but I think it is appropriate here. Card buyers are paying for other more complicated and costly parts of the Auction House's product lines. Any mechanism to combat card inflation due to Auciton House fees is a good effort.<br /><br /><br />Doug:<br /><br />I would certainly understand if you have vowed to be a lurker in this thread from this point forward. I appreciate your candor and will likely be a Mastro customer in future auctions.<br /><br />When I say I will "likely" be a customer in future auctions, that qualification has nothing to do with what has been the primary discussion of this thread. What unnerves me is the buyers premium going to 20%. This was touched on a bit, mostly by Jeff Lichtman, but I don't think we were ever given an explanation. I realize you are running a reasonably sized business and really don't OWE an explanation to anybody, but I, for one, have been a decent customer and am concerned about the action. (I looked back in my check register and have spent $50,500 in Mastro auctions since the April, 2005 auction; consigned nothing). My general feeling is that I am being gouged.<br /><br />You said it yourself...you never expected your $6MM auctions to turn into $12MM auctions. That's outstanding revenue growth, for Mastro, regardless of an increase in the buyers premium. Although I buy pretty freely and pay as much attention to prices as anyone, I do not know how much baseball cards have increased in the last couple years. My instinct is that the overall price increase, in cards, has went up by easily double digits. Even if we assume it is at the low end of double digits..say 10%...which I personally believe is incredibly conservative...that, again, is revenue inflation that most any firm would love to have.<br /><br />I understand that perhaps the memorbilia side of your business is more complicated. Authentication is more stringent, I suppose. The items may be more obscure and harder to determine the claimed provenance. But this is not the case for cards. When I read the description for the T204 Johnson in the present auction, it was the same (or virtually the same) as the last T204 you sold about one year ago. NO PROBLEM!!! Why reinvent the wheel? But, it serves my point, cards are no more complicated now than they were when Mastro started, so why the increase in buyers premium.<br /><br />With the revenue growth and revenue inflation that you have had isn't there something that could of been done to meet income goals and leave the buyers premium at a level the market thinks is fair? Your revenue has had staggering growth and you increase the buyers premium on top of that. I've heard you have a top notch office location. GREAT!!! But at some point, you are going to have to look at the cost side of the equation rather than increase costs and pass it to the buyer. (I had to laugh when Jeff Lichtman stated something to extent of "well I guess for the extra 2.5% we get paper tape with the Mastro Logo plastered all over it." Because I just received my card from the October auction about a week prior and that is exactly my thought when I saw your logo on the tape. I know that is petty, but people get that way when they think they are beginning to be treated unfair)<br /><br />There is a point of diminishing return on the buyers premium....I don't know what that is for the market...but it is approximately 20% for me. Some folks say it doesn't matter just factor it in when you decide what you want to pay. I do that, at times. Other times, I just pay the price, and that's when the increase impacts me. I will tell you, I never even flip a page in a Heritage auction catalog, I just turn a cold shoulder. Their buyers premium has been to high for to long. I hope I don't come to the same final "cold shoulder" conclusion about Mastro.<br /><br />Some have stated that the increase in buyers premium is simply due to the softening of the charges on the consignment fee. If the buyers premium has increased to offset the decrease in consignment fee, I would like to hear more about that.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Leon, I sent you an e-mail to your flash.net account.<br /><br />Cat- can you send it to the lluckey@moredirect.com account?

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>3 - 5% ?<br /><br />How much does eBay charge?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I'm warning you Barry is spying on us. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Do you like ebay? I think they charge about 5%-6%, after it's said and done. And NOW you don't know what the heck is going on?..the idea is that most folks don't like ebay.....they use it as a necessity...I am not saying this will work..I don't know..it's just an idea...<br /><br />edited to say....I have 15 things listed on ebay right now....besides bst it's the only game in town...

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>peter, don't worry about Barry. He's jammed up trying to answer Seinfeld trivia in another thread.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have been talking to Barry about this already...before I posted. This isn't meant to encroach on major auction houses...it's meant to be a daily outlet, that could be better and safer than ebay....Most likely this particular thread is as far as it will go....Like I said it's just a thought...don't shoot me yet..

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I have not sold cards recently on ebay. When I used to sell cards on ebay, some were higher than expected and some were lower. Overall, I thought it was ok.<br /><br />As a buyer, I am a big fan of ebay. There always seems to be cards to buy. Usually the cards offered are not particularly rare but occasionally there is good stuff on there.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>I think that the accountability side of the idea is worth it alone. Leon, I do hope this ends up happening. Many Pre War Collectors would benefit from this alternative & I don't see why the BST would have to go away. I see this project as another option, not an end to the BST. Lot of work to do, ya never though....I would love to help, if it were possoble!?<br /><br />Denny Walsh<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I like the idea....buying cards on ebay is safe if you know the seller and most of us do know the sellers. Not so safe when we don't know who we're buying from... Why not cut ebay out of the profits and do it ourselves? A typical ebay auction for a t-206 card may get 100-200 hits...I don't think it's out of line to say that there are far more posters+lurkers on this board. It's not like T206 commons are going to sell for a buck a piece. I think it's safe to say that most items will get fair market value here.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Thanks Leon.<br /><br />Sent to the moredirect.com account.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Here's one of them....how good is this? Who knows what the heck is happening...either it's a shill or someone unknowingly is going to be very unhappy....<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/TY-COBB-RED-TY-COBB-BACK_W0QQitemZ140071587250QQihZ004QQcategoryZ86840 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140071587250" target="_new">http://cgi.ebay.com/TY-COBB-RED-TY-COBB-BACK_W0QQitemZ140071587250QQihZ004QQcategoryZ86840 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140071587250</a>

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Leon -<br />I think its a great idea. My opinion would be to start with a small one first and see how it goes before taking on a larger one. That way we could work out the bugs and grow from there.<br /><p>Tony Andrea

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Leon, I have one suggestion that should be in the forum rules....all links that are longer than the screen should be given a tinyurl so you don't have to scroll left to right to read the thread. I know this is going to be a long one and I hate having to scroll to read threads. <br /><br />here is the same auction link you provided above, but converted to a tinyurl:<br /><br /><a href="http://tinyurl.com/y3csua" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/y3csua</a>

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />If it's somebody continuously bidding at this early stage it's a shill.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>bbcardsareme? So, Why doesn't he know much about cards? Whats the bb stand for, Big Balls!<br /><br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Steve does have me tied up with Seinfeld questions I can't answer. He may force me to bring out the heavy artillery...nevertheless, to respond to Peter and others, Leon and I have discussed this and I have been extremely supportive of it. Not only do I not feel threatened, but I would be happy to work with Leon. I don't think his plan is to open his own auction house, but to provide another avenue similar to ebay for people who are tired of selling there. The key is the complicated software; and as I told him, there are still many vintage collectors who don't know about this board, so he would have to do a lot of advertising. I think it's an excellent idea and I think he should pursue it until or unless it just is no longer feasible.

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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>Leon,<br />great idea. I think it would be a great resource for buyers and sellers

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I am for giving it a try.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I'm glad your on board...if your in I'm in. At least I'm a buyer. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>My only suggestion would be for a 'No Paypal' payment approach. The first deal that went south involving a paypal payment, and subsquent charge back - then freezing of accounts etc etc...would jamn this board with complaints and be an instant death knell for the whole thing.<br />If you have the money to buy an item, then it shouldn't be too hard to issue a money order that can be tracked for banking purposes, cancelled for non-arrival, and makes it clear if payment has been successful. Perhaps included could be a standard method of shipping that at the very least required full insurance, signature confirmation, and priority shipping.<br /><br />And re Adam's queston of "why would this be more attractive to a seller than simply listing a card at a best minimum offer?", I think the answer would simply be the possibility of much higher return. Quite often a Seller sells a card at discount for benefit of the board community and hoping that such largesse will find its way back to them when they go to buy something....adding an auction process would just be alot cleaner way to manage the selling and do what is fair to both buyer and seller. That is, the card will go for actual market value.<br />I also think there is a huge benefit to buyers, giving everyone a more level playing field to find scarce material, regardless of their ability to check BST 100 times a day.<br /><br />JMO<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>So I guess with the advertising needed, and the bidders needed, it would be wise to change the url of the site from <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652</a> to something that is a little easier to find?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I'll really be pissed the first time someone outs a Net54 auction placed in the wrong category! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't know the answer to that question.... It would be nice to have a url everyone knew....but we'll see...

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i think this is a very good idea...<br /><br />OR, how about a semi-annual live auction?

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>No Pay-Pal! are you kidding? It's just to "Convenient" plus I'd want my card shipped out ASAP!<br /><br />You should be given options of payment M.O. Pay-pal ect....(just like eBay!)

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Paypal is very convenient, but the Paypal fees will cut into the auction listing fees in a hurry.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Brad, convenience is one thing, but the reason Paypal is such a problem is because their 'remedy' solution is absoutely awful. It is completely in the favour of the buyer, can result in the sellers account being frozen - which prohibits you from continuing to use their services you may need for your regular ebay habit, and just basically stinks. Imagine the process and the airing of dirty laundry with a sale gone wrong involving paypal on a Net54 Auction site. It's bad enough when you are dealing with a complete stranger, but think about it being one of the regular posters, and then after everything goes bad on a transaction you have to read their posts and desperately refrain from flaming them at every second......<br />Disagreements will arise regardless of payment, but adding a third party who has no real interest in 'making things right' between buyers and sellers - would in my opinion be hell.<br /><br />Still, just an opinion and I would still love the auction concept to be attempted.<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I think it's an awesome idea. I was trying to mentally wrestle with something similar last night - trying to figure out if there could be some kind of hybrid between ebay and BST. <br /><br />I like ebay/auction because I sometimes don't know where exactly to set a price, or something on BST hasn't sold b/c it's not niche to someone here.<br /><br />My opinions - FWIW:<br /><br />1) Not to replace BST, but to provide an ebay alternative that retains bidder id's and is vintage focused.<br /><br />2) Ongoing, not scheduled, just like ebay. Seller sets up and runs each auction just like ebay - not sending in cards anywhere or consigning. That's what makes ebay different from every other auction house - seller sets it up, runs it, no third parties to handle cards or admin auctions. The only third party is the software provider (like ebay).<br /><br />3) Caveat emptor, just like BST and ebay. Ebay isn't liable for the routine squabbles - don't know why it would be an issue here.<br /><br />4) Fees similar to ebay - about 5%. I think that's fair. It brings in enough to maintain the site without getting too deeply into commercial/profit issues.<br /><br />5) I'm not sure about the need to advertise and bring in a whole new audience. There are many posters and lurkers here. Why not just put it out there, let people start using it, and see what happens? What if there isn't a "big new audience"? How much would that matter, and at what point? I bet it would get plenty of audience after a short time.<br /><br />6) No PayPal? Wha? Huh? OMG heck no. See number 1 above. Keep it simple and familiar, and the last thing we need is a lot of board rules. lol. I can just imagine. Yikes. That'd make the politics and religion threads look like idle chit-chat.<br /><br />Great idea overall. <br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>E, Daniel,<br /><br />OK I see your point, it really should be up to the seller on how he/she would like payment.<br /><br />High dollar items: No doubt, who wants to use pay-pal (The seller would have to make in very clear about payment, M.O. ONLY!)

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>I respectfully think this is a very bad decision, and could lead to an avalance of unintended consequences. <br /><br />I suggest we leave things as they are. The B/S/T board is working rather well, in my view.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joann made a good point that I shared with Leon. Although there are still many collectors who don't know about this board, there are so many serious ones here that it is hard to imagine any vintage item not reaching its full potential. But even I would want to start with a few small items to test the market. Still worth kicking around.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Leon- I'd be in favor of it. The only thing I worry about is the audience. I try whenever I can to put a card on the 54 Board first to give people here first crack at a card but lately I have had had some cards on the BST thread that went nowhere and when I put them on ebay they were snatched up within 24 hours by non-54 buyers.<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Dan, that's a great idea about changing the site's url, and advertising more in general, so more bidders can find it. Perhaps the costs of advertising could be covered by charging a nominal monthly n54 membership fee a la cardpricer.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I would be interested to hear the details of how it would operate, but in principal I am all for it.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Tbob, <br /><br />You get more of a response on E-Bay because those people are jumping on the vintage and pre-war bandwagon late. On the other hand for us die-hards, we've seen most of those cards before.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>My vote is yes.<br /><br />The other day it would've been no, but now I would like an alternative to ebay's new format.<br /><br />Robert

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have always been against any type of monthly fee for this site or any fees for the BST...the auction idea is something completely different. My guess is that there is an 80% chance this thread will be all that comes about...but ya' never know....Really folks, I am just trying to thing outside of the box and have a better solution than ebay for what we do....This idea, and discussion, costs 0.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Then I think you should try to make it happen! You've faced tougher challenges than this. If you can keep Republicans and Democrats from killing each other, this is a piece of cake in comparison. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Of course, the auction will be limited to only registered forum members. Are we going to permit trading. If so, will there be any commission.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Trading will still be allowed on BST, but trading in an auction is an interesting concept: "on that T206 Cobb you have up for auction, I bid one T206 Speaker, one Matty, and a Hugh Jennings." It could work.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>I'm all for it as a buyer. Most here have their collecting niche, so you pretty much know what you're up against and no one is gonna bid some crazy amount like the ebay noobs. Like tbob said Ebay has alot more exposure so less competition on an item is always good.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>& I'll throw in a Walsh on top of all of them! Goin' Once, Goin' Twice....<br /><br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Please don't put your thing outside of the box your wife might get mad.<br /><br />Quote from Leons last post "..Really folks, I am just trying to thing outside of the box "

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Bobby,<br /><br />What are you talking about...actually I don't want to know what Leon's thing is. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We digress.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Maybe this is what he was talking about?<br /><br />Warning Not Safe For Work or Children <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmVU08zVpA&mode=related&search" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dmVU08zVpA&mode=related&search</a>=

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I want to make sure that I understand the video... first, you cut a hole in the box... then two, you put your junk in the box... then three.... Are those the s/h instructions?

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Posted By: <b>Bruce MacPherson</b><p>As a buyer, I am all for it and cannot see a downside. As a seller, I would have some reservations, at least initially. I have to disagree with those who think that limited or no advertising for this "potential" auction format is a good idea. If I were selling a tough caramel or Bakery card, I would think the prices realized would be decent, however a low/mid grade T206 card would likely do better on ebay due to the number of non-forum members collecting the set. Although, I would imagine that if Leon et al were to undertake this project, eventually the majority of prewar card collectors would find the site.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think as a seller it would be good to start small. If a $100 card sells for $75, life goes on. If prices do better than expected, the site would grow quickly.

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Posted By: <b>RC Mckenzie</b><p>Wasn't there a guy on here about a year ago that started a 'cards only' daily auction site that had similar bidder software to ebay? Someone or a group of folks could set up a daily auction site like that one and link it to this board. If you guys set it up I will bid there. take care

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Is that the same one that the Behrends Boys used to link to?

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Posted By: <b>RC Mckenzie</b><p>Yeah, that one. I used to look over there, but never got around to buying anything as not many people were listing there. If whoever sets this new one up could get the oldcardboard 'top 50' to move over there everyone would follow and ebay vintage cards would look like the yahoo vintage card section.

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>I vote no.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>Please email me if you want me to shill bids for your auction items.<br /><br />Money orders only. Private feedback. I am not a expert on vintage cards but I found these items in my grandma's attic. All items sold as is. No refunds.<br /><br />OK, I'm all ready. Let's start the bidding!<br /><br />(Seriously, it sounds like fun-go for it)

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>My Ebay stock has been treading water for over a year, maybe that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.<br /><br />Again, why not, what could it hurt. I don't see anyone being asked for money, forced to sell or forced to buy.<br /><br />It's a freeroll<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I like the idea. I also like the suggestion of using a catchier web address. And that suggestion made me wonder -- why does this have to be part of the www.network54.com website? Can't we (or Leon or whoever is running this aspect of the show) open up vintagecardauctions.com or any other website we like? There can be a link on network54 to the auction site, and a link on the auction site to network54. But apart from that, why does there need to be any more formal connection between the two? Whether it's two separate websites or one, the board members who want to participate will participate; and those who don't want to participate won't. <br /><br />I think the cost of registering a separate domain name is about 100 bucks a year, which is probably minimal compared to the software needed to run the auction.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Wow...this last action by ebay must have really been the last straw....last year when Jay and Lee were stumping for a website that does just what everyone here is wanting to do it pretty much got &lt;crickets&gt; or they got chided for once again mentioning the site.

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Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>Ebay's new bidder policy is fine for everyday items like new stereo equipment or new cars. The new semi-private auction system does not work for antique/collector items with no real determined market value. For example, ebay user "icantbelievewhatijustsaw' is not going to make a 'top all' bid on a 1999 Ford Taurus on ebay. Ebay must be getting hammered on new items where sellers are contacting underbidders with wholesale prices on 1999 Taures'.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Sounds good to me.....provided you don't have 10% increments when bidding.<br /><br />Mastro, REA, etc, etc, have this ridiculous bidding practice. And, that's why I avoid these auctions.<br /><br />Why can't they take a lesson from Ebay.<br /><br />People.....do you realize that with 10% increments, the starting base price doubles every 7 bids.....<br /><br />and, quadruples by the 14th bid.....and is 8 x the startng price by the 21st bid.<br /><br />This "compounding" is one of the main factors that sky-high, crazy selling prices are being realized<br /> in these auctions.<br /><br />LEON please follow the Ebay example.....if you proceed with this idea.<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Leon, I know we see ourselves (NET54)as a big family, but this does seem like a big step, a large job, lots of work, maybe it could work. This sounds like 19th Century Auctions to me and there already is one of those. I definitely see a need for outside bidders, not just this board. I know some board members with rare and hard to find items would do very well, not sure how the lower value items would do.<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Why not use a second-rate auction site that has little activity and use that as the "unofficial" N54 auction site for N54ers? The pluses are:<br /><br />- no management work<br />- other people get to bid, thus helping seller's realizing good prices<br />- lower fees than ebay<br />- probably not much more in fees (if in fact it is more) than what Leon is proposing<br />- no fear that this site will turn into something completely different than what it is now<br /><br />Leon, if you do start a VBCF Auctions, will this site officially be your bread-and-butter and main income? If it is, so be it, I'm just curious.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>To start and even to continue bidding could be placed via email. If Leon and other reputable<br />Net54ites are running the show, we'd know there would be no funny business. And there's no reason<br />bidders can't place their real bids right away instead of the sniper games. There could be <br />email updates, with bidders conveniently able to bid by responding to the update.<br /><br />This way you could start with a couple of small auctions before you get into the auction <br />software stuff. If an auction is small, there's actually little advantage to having an<br />auction automated ala eBay or Mastro.

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>The more I think about this, the less it appeals to me.<br /><br />I thought this was a hobby board primarily, to come and learn about vintage issues, to discuss cards, and b/s/t on the side. <br /><br />Any auction service on this site would, in my opinion, make this board more of a commercial endeavor, instead of a "hobby forum." That would be tragic.<br />Changing the URL for this message board would also be a mistake. I like that it is not "vintagecardtalk.com" or something along those lines. <br /><br />If members on here were to start up an auction site on a seperate page, I would most likely use it. Just not on our boards.<br /><br />Josh<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>You never know unless you try. This is also a great place to get feedback/suggestions on what people would like to see for the auctions. The reality of it all is going to lie in the flexibility of the software package that is used for the auctions. <br /><br />Yeah, what the heck - set it up...

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I think it's a bad idea, one that strays away from the intent of the boards in the first place.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Almost every stamp and coin club you can think of holds regular auctions among the members. They are for the benefit of the members, to both obtain material and sell dupes. As to the money, Again, I doubt Leon will be quitting his day job. Besides he doesn't do a damn thing and gets paid well for it. That is the only reason he has to time to monitor this carnival act.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>"Carnival Act"- very well phrased.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Thanks for the feedback. As most know I am very reluctant to do anything that could/would change the demeanor of the board. I also feel I have been very cautious in changing anything on the board in the past. First and foremost this is a place for collectors to come and talk about cards and hobby issues AND is as FREE, and OPEN, to each person as it can be. I want it to stay that way. I did the trial for a full two months with the banners just to make sure the overall feel didn't change. So far I have barely seen an iota of a change in the way we participate. I think literally one person was so unhappy they don't participate much anymore, though I am quite sure they still read the board. Out of around a thousand people a day, and more coming all of the time, I would say that wasn't too bad, though I would prefer not losing any posters at all. I will never make everyone happy no matter what I do. This was a question to view feedback and get remarks concerning this auction possibility. If it goes anywhere I would envision it being a link somewhere on the board to take you to it. It would not, and could not, be hosted by Network54.com. Auction s/w is not their gig, forums are. I will continue to give this consideration and certainly haven't made a decision yet. For the record, unless it went better than expected, I couldn't quit my day job. If it got big enough I guess I could but that would certainly be some time fairly far away. The time and work put into it would justify the means if it came to that. I have had numerous offers for help in orchestrating an auction and am appreciative. One of my biggest concerns is the audience attendance. Ebay rules in that area so, for example, I am not quite sure what a T205 common in "gd" would go for on a smaller, albeit more friendly, auction site. Thanks again to everyone for keeping it civil....and also for making this a great board. The collective community, and I, appreciate ya' .....(we say that in Texas <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I will vote no. This is a Forum, not an auction facility. Let's not mess with a good thing.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I haven't been here as long as most of you, but I vote no as well. <br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys, and Gals,<br /><br />I'll be Frank actually, I'm Peter, the only reason I like the idea is the thought of all those unslabbed prewar and vintage cards make my mouth water.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Mark Holt</b><p>I don't post often on this site but read threads frequently. Banner ads, fees for BST - it's clear the N54 forum is going in a new direction and not a good one IMO. My vote is an emphatic 'NO.'

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>While I respect everyone's opinion very much your comment about fees for the BST are wrong. You might want to read a little more...best regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A regular auction on Net54 should be looked at in the spirit of providing an alternative to ebay, which at the moment is clearly irritating a lot of people. The fact that the board may be changing should not present a problem. The whole world is changing, so why can't we? The fees would be minimal and it could turn into a popular venue.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />We're all pretty much equals right now. But when your bidding against each other it gets pretty competitive. It's going to be clear pretty soon that some of us have more bucks than others. I can see a lot of petty jealousy and grudges developing. I've changed my mind. I vote no. Leon are you tabulating the votes.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Peter ive been outbid a ton of times by people from the forum on ebay and im sure everyone else has too,or at least someone here was the underbidder and ran up the price with an attempted snipe.I dont think that would be a big problem,or any more of a problem than it is now

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Posted By: <b>Robert {Bigb13}</b><p>I say let the auction begin. Rob

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>When i'm about to bid on ebay, I make certain not to bid on cards if one of<br />my N54's comrades is bidding(assuming that I'm aware of their ebay handles).<br />I wonder what I'll do if we have our own auction?<br />Admittedly, I'm still incubating where I stand with this new concept.<br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />Barry<br />p.s. I also wonder what i'll do on ebay if no ebay handle 'identifiers'<br />are available.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I vote "no" as well. This is a hobby forum. There are other venues for auctions.

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Posted By: <b>Robert {Bigb13}</b><p>Ebay S--ks lately. They make it so youe can not see what items bidders are bidding on and now with this bidder 1,2,3 nonsence it's getting to be a bit much. I am not even talking about for instance the pre 1930's catogory where you have to weed past all the other crap just to find a couple of cards you would be interested in bidding on. That could take a while to do. At least over here 99 to 100% would be pre 1930's stuff with out a question. I think it would be a great idea for us bidders but maybe not so good for the sellers here. Rob

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have decided to put this on the back burner for now. It's probably only 70/30 in favor of giving it a try. For those that voted, so closed mindedly, to not give it a try, please don't denounce ebay anymore on the board. Otherwise, you will be worse than my 10 yr old about complaining about something and not trying to find a solution. Actually, she is far better at it than some on this board. It would have had to be a win fo the sellers, a win for the buyers, and if I had to put enough time into it a win for me too. At this point I don't think it would have been that. I feel the biggest obstacle, other than folks not wanting change (normal human behavour) would be the audience, or amount of audience. Thanks for all of the feedback.....now back to that wonderful shilling community called ebay..... I am not sure which I am more perplexed about....me posting for a friend, and getting blasted, or the lack of support for a possibility of a better alternative to ebay for our cards....simply amazing.

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Why do you nay say'rs have your BVD's all bunched up?.. The darn thing would be off-site thus disconnected from the knowledge board anywaze. Remember the days when we were young, ambitious and open minded?<br /><br /><br />fun fact; Ebay is responsible for over $3,000,000,000.00 in sportscard sales last year.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- I say don't get discouraged quite yet! There is almost nothing you can propose that is going to get 100% approval. If I say it is sunny you can be sure there's at least someone who will say it is raining. I think the board is missing the point and I will repeat it- vintage collectors are getting fed up with ebay. Their latest change hasn't even been fully tested yet. What if sellers find that because of the hidden bidder policy their sales are suddenly down 10%-20%? Wouldn't these sellers by necessity be looking for an alternative market? And that's all Leon is offering- a chance to try a new venue that is board friendly. Would you say that ebay has become more user friendly? I think not. I know this will take time anyway because there is a lot of software involved, but I wouldn't throw in the towel because of a few naysayers. (added to say I respect naysayers as much as anyone)

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Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>I am not affliliated with this site in any way and there are plenty of options out there available to you; but I thought it would be worth pointing out: <a href="http://www.phpauction.net/order.php" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.phpauction.net/order.php</a><br /><br />You can get an auction package installed with custom graphics for $204. Not bad at all...I'm guessing there are less expensive and plenty more expensive.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Leon, if you want to do it, just do it and stand up to the guys that are against you. Whining about it is lame.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't appreciate your comment.....imo that was more lame....

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i think Mark hit it right square on the head.<br /><br />you (leon) discussed a 3-5% fee for auctions. now maybe that's not the same as bst (shame on you Mark), but with the banner ads, and now the desire to go "auction"....i think the board is heading in a very bad direction.<br /><br />i wonder why bill and elliot never posted regarding the banner ads? <br /><br />i wonder why bill and elliot haven't given their opinion on this thread?<br /><br />'for the love of baseball cards'.....hmmmm?

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"For those that voted, so closed mindedly, to not give it a try, please don't denounce ebay anymore on the board... I am not sure which I am more perplexed about....me posting for a friend, and getting blasted, or the lack of support for a possibility of a better alternative to ebay for our cards....simply amazing. "<br /><br />With all due respect, I don't think my "no" vote was closed-minded at all. And while I freely use eBay on a daily basis, and think for the most part that it's a great resource for us, I also don't know how my lack of support for a continuous auction on Net54 should remove my right to make negative comments about eBay here.<br /><br />There already is a better alternative to eBay for our cards: auction houses. They come in all shapes and sizes, and many of the proprietors participate and advertise on this board. If I owned an auction house and I contributed to this board in one way or another, and the board started soliciting consignments from users (that might otherwise have gone to my company), I'd be pretty upset.<br /><br />I also think it's a misnomer to say that 54 would be a "better" alternative to eBay until such a time that 54 can deliver the kind of traffic that eBay does. Some of the deceptive practices on eBay may be frustrating, sure, but I also think that eBay spends millions of dollars advertising on TV and through the mail, so that there are millions of potential eyeballs to see my listings. Will a 54 auction do anything like this, or will it just rely on the traffic that's already here to generate high prices for my material? Will it make any kind of financial outlay to market my material, the way that eBay or the major auction houses do? Will it produce a catalog? Will it advertise in the hobby publications (besides Old Cardboard)?<br /><br />For a collector who wants to sell a card and avoid eBay, there's also a very useful B/S/T forum here, there are card shows, and there are dealers who accept consignments. Additionally, many Net54 members have their own websites where they have for sale/for trade pages. Lastly, it's possible to open up an eBay store and utilize eBay without the auction/shilling format by selling your items at a fixed price. There are lots of options for selling cards outside eBay.<br /><br />However, this is primarily a message board, where there's a free and open exchange of information and knowledge. Lately, as everyone knows, the board has been dominated by posts related to hobby-related issues, gossip, accusations, arguments, and such. Threads about CARDS seem to drop like rocks lately.<br /><br />I am of the opinion that adding an auction component to 54 will further take the board focus away from its intended purpose. That's all. But it certainly wasn't a closed-minded vote.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />-Al <br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's a dead idea and is stopped. My apologies to anyone I offended. best regards

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I think your post was lame. You think mine was lame.<br />At least we agree on one thing. Good luck!

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>I agree with Al. I don't consider myself "close-minded" and my criticism of EBAY has nothing to do with my opposition to VBCFA.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You don't end up with the really good ideas unless you have the courage to present them, and, be willing to hear others disapproval of them - no matter how bad the disappointment if they are rejected.<br /><br />I thought the idea was fine, and the concerns and objections were fine too.<br />Then again, I thought fiddling with a card's condition in any way was wrong - so what do I know <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys and Leon,<br /><br />Thanks for your e-mailed response.<br /><br />It was a good idea, but you have to understand it's impossible to get a hundred guys to agree on anything. That's why Microsoft and Google were started with a handful of people. <br /><br />The idea needs to be sharpened and honed then you need a group of die-hard believers to spread the word. So Leon, if your really have the energy to go forward with this idea, just correspond with other true-believers by e-mail. Once you have the details pulled together then start another thread. You will get a positive response.<br /><br />Right now it sounds like a half-baked idea.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Norman</b><p>No way to know if you don't try. What if it works and becomes a really big financial success? This could be great for everybody including sellers who will get more money. Ebay started out very samll too and look where they are now. You never know how big things get started.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Ebay's fees are small compared to most any auction house and they deliver a heck of a lot of eyeballs. I do not see the ebay rule changes as impacting their audience significantly. Does anyone here really think of not participating on ebay from now on, for example, despite the rule changes? I think not. <br /><br />I also do not see a startup auction company as an extension of the spirit with which this board started, unless the start up has certain hard and fast rules that place control firmly with the consignors. Otherwise it is just another for-profit auction house.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Even though the audience is smaller on a logarithmic scale, I believe that the selling prices would consitently higher on a board like this than they are on eBay.<br /><br />The reputations and peer pressure would put us all in a much more comfortable frame of mind during bidding.<br /><br />Great idea.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>Even though the audience is smaller on a logarithmic scale, I believe that the selling prices would consitently higher on a board like this than they are on eBay.</i><br /><br /><font color=blue>Doesn't everyone here bid on eBay? Why would the pricing be any higher?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Agreed. I find it hard to believe that the prices realized would be any higher than ebay.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>I agree with Norm...The 1st day ebay was online they got "Zero hits"! You never know what could happen?...Unless you try! Quality & Accountablity of audience over shill bidding, non-receipt of cardboard, item not as descibed...the ebay list is endless compared to what can be done here! I for one am in and I can Always say, "Hey, What do I know?"...I'm just a poor Irishmen...<br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>What prevents a seller right now from offering an item for auction on the B/S/T?<br /><br />For example, a seller could offer a card on the following terms:<br /><br />1. Bids for the item are valid if posted on the thread in the B/S/T<br />2. A new bidder must post on the thread by the required increment (particular dollar amount or 10% or whatever the seller defines)<br />3. Auction ends when a particular amount of time has expired without a bid. This can be 15 minutes, 1 day, 1 week or whatever the seller wants.<br /><br />This format is more like the auction house than ebay, which of course ends at a specific time. Bidders would be able to see other bids for an item.<br /><br />Caveat emptor and all that, but am I missing something?<br /><br />Max<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Exactly Max. The seller sets the rules and everything is transparent. No need for a seperate auction site.

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Posted By: <b>Mark Burke</b><p>I would pay a buyers premium just to buy cards from a site that does not have obnoxious, irritating, intrusive banner ads (read lowermybills.com) like every single freaking page on ebay.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>The prices would be lower than on ebay obviously as you get a dramatically smaller audience.<br /><br />Also people would hold back their higher end stuff.<br /><br />Unlikely there would be any auctions of PSA 8 stuff so I would not likely participate...but since David Vargha doesn't like the idea and he is never wrong about anything I vote no.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Thanks for your support, Jim. Could you please let my wife know? She has a different take on things.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>David,<br /><br />If you like I could even deliver the message personally. I am staying at the Mansion at Turtle Creel in Dallas on Wednesday night.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>Don't eat there, the food's overrated.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Just staying there for the night--is the liquor ok in case David or heavan forbid Leon pops over.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Leon and I will be joining another out of town board member on Thursday for a get together, Could surely make time for one on Wednesday as well.<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Only if you promise to sit quietly and listen while I explain to you the virtues of graded cards. 9pm at the Mansion.<br /><br />I will even bring a prewar psa 10.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>besided I know about graded cards and 9:00 is way too late for me. Trust me you'll have a better time by yourself<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>That works for me--