T206's....show us your BROAD LEAF's [Archive]

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12-12-2006, 09:14 PM

Posted By: NetJrSorry I don't know all the ins and outs of posting images here; but here are the links to the broadleafs we have in our collection at cardtarget.com: <a href="http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1049452954" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1049452954</a> 1909-11 T206 Christy Mathewson (Broadleaf 460) <a href="http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=2100007530" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=2100007530</a> 1909-11 T206 Danny Murphy (Broadleaf 460) <a href="http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1391550096" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1391550096</a> 1909-11 T206 Gabby Street (Broadleaf 460) And our set of 36 different T206 Backs which includes a 460 and 350 <a href="http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1753677064" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/pm_details.cgi?productID=1753677064</a>

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12-12-2006, 09:24 PM

Posted By: Mark Tylicki<a href="http://www.rustywilly.com/largecards/BeckleyJake.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.rustywilly.com/largecards/BeckleyJake.htm</a> ------------------------------ MY COLLECTION: <a href="http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm</a>

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12-12-2006, 09:36 PM

Posted By: robert a<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/arrelanes.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/arrelanesback.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/strang.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/strangback.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/speaker.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/speakerback.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/sey.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206backchecklist/websize/sey2.jpg">

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12-13-2006, 06:31 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Michael. No the cards aren't mine, but they were offered to a friend before they were holdered, and he sent me the scans. I will say that the Johnson was offered in the Mastro auction in Dec of 2005, and sold for about 5500.00 which was an absolute steal!!! Had I not already spent about 25,000 that month, I would have bid heavily. There is a story behind the cards, but I believe I will let my friend and fellow board member fill in the blanks. To my knowledge there are several more high grade 460's around including the small find made by former board member James Verrill: Here is the list I have: Mordecai Brown SGC 60 Charles O'leary SGC 60 Hands on knee Joss VG/EX The rest are lower grade with a few 3's and 4's, with O'leary, Reulbach, and Joss showing up multiple times. I have heard that a nice Dark Cap Matty is floating around, but don't have a scan. I will post scans of my 10-12 Broadleaf 350's later, as I am out of 460's Be well Brian PS Anyone know where James went too..........

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12-13-2006, 07:07 AM

Posted By: Jim RiveraThis Joss came from another board member who got it from James Verrillhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165935928.JPG <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165935928.JPG">

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12-13-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, Didn't have time to scan, but here is my list of Broad Leaf's: Abstein Arndt Bresnahan (2) Casey Chappelle Kruger Malarkey Mitchell Murray bat Myers bat O'Brien Paskert Titus

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12-13-2006, 02:07 PM

Posted By: NathanCome on, who has the Dummy Taylor broadleaf? Reveal yourself! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-13-2006, 05:23 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisScans not needed, Brian W....your word is as good as "gold". Between several T206 surveys and the cards shown on this Thread (so far), I can account for 75 different T206's in the set with Broad Leaf 350 backs....and, I'm sure there are more. Also, an interesting pattern appears.......if you correlate these Broad Leaf 350's to the previously posted "Sovereign 350 - No Print" list of 60 cards, nearly 1/2 of these No Prints (26) are subjects that apparently the T206 planners decided instead to print with BL 350 backs. And, this seems plausible, as Sovereign & Broad Leaf were from the same Factory #25, 2nd Dist. VA So, come on guys....stop hiding your BL 350 cards....let's see if we can attain at least 100 different ones ? T-Rex TED

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12-13-2006, 06:50 PM

Posted By: Judson HamlinMy 460 is a Snodgrass and the 350s include Huggins, Blackburne, Freeman, McGinley & Mullen (port). Good huntin'

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12-13-2006, 07:27 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks Judd That raises the Broad Leaf 350 tally to 77 different T206's. I will list all 77 (or more) when time permits. Ted Z

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12-13-2006, 08:21 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, Check your list of missing Sovereigns againist known Broad Leaf's, Carolina Brights, and Tolstoi's and they begin to appear. And the add American Beauty's and they are all accounted for. I will post my numbers on each when I have a chance, but out of the 68 missing SOV'S from your original list 47 have been confirmed with Broad leaf backs. I'll fill in the other data later. Something to think about Brian

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12-14-2006, 04:28 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBRIAN WEISNER.....you are a WISE man....I look forward to your analysis. I have compared my SOVEREIGN "No-Print" list with the availability of American Beauty backs, but I have not done a comparison with TOLSTOI, or your favorite....CAROLINA BRIGHTS. I'll again study the surveys for these 2 backs and I will include POLAR BEAR, also. One more BROAD LEAF 350 from my collection..... <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/amcginley.jpg">

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12-14-2006, 06:47 AM

Posted By: DrewHi Ted I have two broadleaf 350 cards. Burchell and Downs. Drew

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12-14-2006, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTHANKS guys....for all your pix and inputs on your BROAD LEAF 350 cards....let's continue to get more. To date total = 77.....interestingly, the majority of Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 5 - HOFers....Beckley, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barry..A's Beck Beckley Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burke Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Delehanty..Louisv Dineen Donovan..throw Downs Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham..Boston Graham..St Louis Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell..port Huggins..hds/mouth Davy Jones Joss..pitch Killian..port Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey McBride McGinley McGlynn Mitchell Moran..Chi Mullen (port) Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Purtell Quillen Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strange Sweeney..bat Taylor Titus Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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12-14-2006, 08:55 AM

Posted By: leon1909 T206 Broadleaf350 Moeller-NJ

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12-14-2006, 09:51 AM

Posted By: Ray PiskadloTed, A Marquard portrait with a BL 350 back sold on eBay yesterday. That makes 6 HOF's Best regards, Ray Piskadlo

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12-14-2006, 09:52 AM

Posted By: robTed, you neglected to add my Meyers, fielding and Dunn to your list.

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12-14-2006, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, I have seen all of the possible 350 only subjects with Broad Leaf backs except for these: Jack Barry Peter Cassidy Ray Demmitt NY Joe Doyle Hands over Jerry Freeman Fromme Graham Bos Groom Del Howard Huggins Hands at mouth Kleinow NY Mclean Rhoades Right Arm out Rhodes Schlafly Be well Brian

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12-14-2006, 10:46 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisROB Sorry, and thanks for bringing this to my attention.....I did list your Lennox, which was one that was unconfirmed prior to your information. I will update the list with your additional inputs as soon as you to tell me which Dunn ? There are two of them in the 350 Series....Jack and Joe. TED Z

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12-14-2006, 11:23 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGreat, another previously unconfirmed BL 350 card. Dan Moeller is on the front of the only DRUM back that I have in my T206 back collection. Thanks, T-Rex TED

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12-14-2006, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, Read my post above, and it will save you a lot of time. I have listed the subjects which HAVE NOT been seen with Broad Leaf 350 backs. Be well Brian

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12-14-2006, 01:44 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI indeed read your post.....and, I do understand that these 15 you listed were never printed with BROAD LEAF 350 backs. Therefore, we can expect to find 192 cards from the 350-only Series with BL 350 backs......do you agree that this number is correct ? I arrived at 192 by subtracting 15 from 207 (the total number of 350-only cards in the set). Anyway, in this Thread we have so far accounted for approx. 1/2 this number of cards. TED Z

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12-14-2006, 01:50 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, No, that's not what I'm saying. I posted the 15 cards that "I" have never seen with Broad Leaf backs, but they may in fact exist. the other 192, if that's the number I have seen and they do exist. So you can narrow your search to those specific cards that haven't been seen yet...... Sorry, for not making it more clear, but my typing is weak at best. (5-9 fingers on a good day. Be well Brian I'll also try to list the Carolina Brights I know to exist later...

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12-14-2006, 05:22 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED....list of confirmed....BROAD LEAF 350 cards THANKS guys....for all your pix and inputs on your BROAD LEAF 350 cards....we are about 1/2 the way through a possible 192+ cards with this tough back. To date total = 83.....interestingly, the majority of Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 6 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barry..A's Beck Beckley Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan..bat (this card has been reported 4 times) Burchell Burke Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Delehanty..Louisv Dineen Donovan..throw Dorner Downs Dunn..? Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham..Boston Graham..St Louis Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell..port Huggins..? Davy Jones Joss..pitch Killian..port Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard..port McBride McGinley McGlynn Miller..Pitt Mitchell Moeller Moran..Chi Mullen..port Murray..bat Myers..bat Myers..fldg Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Purtell Quillen Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass..bat Speaker Stanage Starr Strange Sweeney..bat Taylor Titus Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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12-14-2006, 05:24 PM

Posted By: robjoe dunn

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12-14-2006, 05:25 PM

Posted By: NetJrJust curious if anyone is going to catalog the 460's listed as well as the 350's? Shorter list - should be easier to do.

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12-14-2006, 05:33 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNetJr You have a great idea....why not follow it....yourself ? Ted Z

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12-14-2006, 05:36 PM

Posted By: Brian WeisnerYes, I will fill in the known 460 list; Mordecai Brown Chicago (HOF) Al Burch (fielding) Ty Cobb Red Portrait (HOF) Ty Cobb Bat off Shoulder (HOF) Harry Davis (Philadelphia, Davis on front) Patsy Dougherty (arm in air) Tom Downey (batting) Kid Elberfeld (Wash., fielding) Johnny Evers Chicago (yellow sky) (HOF) Walter Johnson Glove at Chest (R) (HOF) Griffith Batting (HOF) Addie Joss Hands at Chest (HOF) Red Kleinow Boston Ed Konetchy (glove near ground) Christy Mathewson Dark Cap (HOF) Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) George Mullin (with bat) Danny Murphy (batting) Charley O'Leary (hands on knees) Ed Reulbach (no glove showing) Nap Rucker (throwing) Germany Schaefer (Washington) Cy Seymour (throwing) Fred Snodgrass (catching) Jake Stahl Gabby Street (catching) Jeff Sweeney (New York) Vic Willis Throwing Cy Young With Glove (HOF)

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12-14-2006, 05:48 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBRIAN W We can do both, simultaneously......continue adding to the long list of confirmed BL 350 cards. And, seek out your short list of 15 possible "No-Print" cards. OK, you serious T206 dudes we are really looking to see if anyone has the following cards with BL 350 backs ? Barry..Milw Cassidy Demmitt..NY Joe Doyle Freeman Fromme Graham..Boston (this one has been reported in Super Set SS) Groom Howard..Chi Huggins..Hands/mouth Kleinow NY McLean Rhoades..Right Arm out Rhodes Schlafly

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12-14-2006, 05:49 PM

Posted By: JerryI own a Barbeau BL350

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12-14-2006, 06:32 PM

Posted By: NetJrTed I would except I am pretty darn clueless when it comes to these cards; and thanks Brian W. I much appreciate learning from someone who knows how to present them. Earlier I read there might be only 40 or so Broadleaf 460's known? Is that true? Its interesting that 28 of them can be listed here. Very intriguing.

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12-14-2006, 06:40 PM

Posted By: Judson HamlinIs listed in both. I have seen McLean and Rhoades w/Broadleaf backs, but none of the others. I can't wait for someone to take on T205's with this detail (Piedmont 42's anyone?)

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12-14-2006, 07:05 PM

Posted By: Marc S.I have a Knabe BL350

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12-15-2006, 06:21 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi TED, Sounds good, I just wanted to make sure you and I were on the same page. Talk to you soon Brian

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12-15-2006, 06:29 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK, I have received several emails from "readers" with additional BL 350 inputs...... and I thank you, guys. I will update the long list sometime in the next day, or two. JUDD I am not sure in your recent post if you are providing inputs on BL 350's or BL 460's ? I can see that this Thread can become confusing, unless we separate these 2 subjects. I think a separate Thread should be started just on BL 460 backs....they are certainly significant enough to devote a specific Thread strictly on them. Also, to respond to your last sentence....I have been considering starting a Thread on PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 42 NC. T-Rex TED

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12-15-2006, 07:50 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou have your wish.....I started a PIEDMONT 460/42 thread. Let's see where it takes us ? T-Rex TED

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12-15-2006, 12:09 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedThat is an impressive lot of BROAD LEAF 460 cards you listed. And, ole Buddy, I don't recall that you and I ever having been on dissimilar pages. But, you certainly have me beat on T206 expertise.....but, I am working hard to catch up to you. TED Z

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12-15-2006, 02:41 PM

Posted By: Judson HamlinI wish my wife listened to me like that when I make suggestions. The McLean and Rhoades (StL) were 350's. Sorry. Posted to the 42 thread already And, just a general thanks for putting these threads out there. I think it's great to get more info into the hobby. Happy holidays. Edited for lousy grammar. My English profs at Richmond just collectively cringed.

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12-15-2006, 05:29 PM

Posted By: Craig HAlright, it's been documented, but here's mine. It's Clancy of Buffalo by the way. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1166146040.JPG">

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12-16-2006, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisFrom Brian's possible BL 350 "No-Print" list we have eliminated...... Freeman Graham (Boston) McLean Rhoades And, we still have 11 remaining..... Barry (Milwaukee) Cassidy Demmitt (New York) Joe Doyle Fromme Groom Howard (Chicago) Huggins (Hands/mouth) Kleinow (NY-catching) Rhodes Schlafly We need more inputs, guys......show or tell us of your BROAD LEAF 350 cards ?

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12-16-2006, 07:31 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIn an earlier post here you noted your Huggins BL 350..... Please be more specific as to which version (portrait or hands at mouth) ? Thanks, TED Z

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12-17-2006, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Judson Hamlinwould be a portrait (raw, but probably a 50 or 60)

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12-17-2006, 06:26 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED....list of confirmed....BROAD LEAF 350 cards THANKS guys....for all your pix and inputs on your BROAD LEAF 350 cards....we are about 1/2 the way through a possible 196+ cards with this tough back. To date total = 86.....interestingly, the majority of Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 6 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Beck Beckley Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....this card has been reported 4 times Burchell Burke Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Frank Delehanty Dineen Donovan (throw) Dorner Downs Joe Dunn Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) McBride McGinley McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strange Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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12-17-2006, 06:41 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdHey Ted, I have Unglaub who isnt on your list and Dots Miller who is

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12-19-2006, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks JOHN D I will list your Unglaub when I update the confirmed list of BL 350 cards. I've had several emails from readers who have provided some new Subjects, also. T-Rex Ted

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12-19-2006, 02:06 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderGuys, What I find most interesting is that Brian's W. list of 29 known Broad Leaf 460s includes ONLY TWO 460-only subjects [Kleinow (Boston) and Schaefer (Washington)]. The rest are 350/460 subjects. This suggests Broad Leaf 460s, similar to Piedmont 42s, are much easier to find (although still incredibly difficult) on the backs of 350/460 subjects than 460-only subjects. Also, I have a nice Arrelanes and Burchell with Broad Leaf 350. Here is Arrelanes: <img src="http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/sreader3/ArrelanesFront.jpg">

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12-19-2006, 02:11 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderArrelanes back: <img src="http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/sreader3/ArrellanesBack.jpg">

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12-19-2006, 07:07 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGee, that is one of the sharpest, well-centered Broad Leaf backs I have seen. Your observation on the Broad Leaf 460 cards being primarily from the 350/460 series is quite interesting. And, the Piedmont 460/42 cards having the same yield....what can we derive from this pattern ? It's trying to tell us somrthing....but, what ? TED Z

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12-19-2006, 07:33 PM

Posted By: SeanHere is an iteresting item, it measures about 5" wide and 2.75" tall on heavier card stock. Anyone have any information about it? <img src="http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g193/hanksta3/broadleafBCsmall.jpg"> Thanks, Sean

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12-19-2006, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Scot, On my list there are 39 players who are only available in the 460 series, and none are known with Broad Leaf backs. Germany Schaefer (Washington) is one of the 73 poses which was first available in the 350 series and then again in the 460. Kleinow seems to fall outside the pattern as it has been seen with the Broadleaf 460 back. Piedmont 42's follow a similiar pattern,except for the Chase and Bergen cards mentioned in an earlier thread as they do not appear on any other 460 only cards. The list may be missing 1 or 2 cards, but I doubt it's missing many, as we don't have any Carolina Brights or Drum's from this group either. Be well Brian

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12-20-2006, 05:00 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSean- that's a real neat business card but I think the four-digit phone number would date it well before 1910. I think by then five-digit numbers were used. Anybody know more about that?

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12-20-2006, 05:51 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisDepending when that Broad Leaf adv. was first issued, the New York phone system could have had only 4-digit Tel #s. The cut-over to 5-digits was somewhere near the turn of the Century. Ted Z

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12-20-2006, 09:36 AM

Posted By: Scot ReaderHi Brian, I don't think you will ever find Schaefer (Washington) with any 350 back. I know Heitman says he is possible with 350 backs, but I am confident that is not the case. I base this on two considerations: 1) Schaefer (Washington) is possible with Sovereign 460 and 2) Schaefer (Washington) is possible with Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30. The Sovereign 460 and Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 backs are only possible on the six 350/460 superprints and the 48 460-only subjects. And Schaefer (Washington) is not one of the six superprints. Hence he is a 460-only subject. Scot

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12-20-2006, 11:31 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Scot, I understand your thinking on Schaefer, but he also fits into the 460 only pattern where he has been seen with Broad Leaf 460, and Piedmont 42 backs. It appears that Kleinow and Schaefer are hybrids of the 2, until we find more evidence, or more cards. Be well Brian

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12-20-2006, 11:59 AM

Posted By: Scot Reader Brian, Maybe, like you, Bill Heitman saw Schaefer (Washington) and Kleinow (Boston) with Broadleaf 460 and thought because of this they fit the 350/460 profile. Great minds sometimes think alike. Scot

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12-20-2006, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Brian WeisnerHi Scot, That's very kind, but I think my research pales in comparison to Heitman's work. In fact I used "The Monster" as my T206 bible, and assumed everything in it was correct until proven otherwise. The fact that he was able to amass this amount of data in the late 70's early 80's is quite remarkable, besides the fact that it's probably 95% on the mark. Thank goodness for the Internet, as now we can all research our favorite cards in a few years versus a few decades. Very few collectors today would communicate the way Burdick, Lipset, Barker, and Heitman etc did by mail in the past. I doubt you and I, Art and Ted would do as well if we had to write letters everyday. Keep up the search Brian PS Ted probably would have written a letter a week....

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12-20-2006, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBRIAN and SCOT With Schaefer as a Washington player, we are talking about the begining of 1910 season; and, isn't that about the time this last series (460-only) was in the process of design ? Now as far as Red Kleinow (Boston) goes, ever since I have collected T206's (starting in 1981) this card was always a tough variation. And, now that I realize this card (and also Frank Smith- Chi & Bost) do not exist as Sovereign's....I can see why. Take Smith, for example, I have acquired a Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Polar Bear, Old Mill, Cycle, and an American Beauty 460......but, I do not expect to ever find a Sovereign. Do either of you guys have any theories why Kleinow and Smith were not printed with this back ....while all the other 46 (plus the 6 Super Prints) were ? TED Z

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12-20-2006, 02:07 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, Both Frank and Red's families fought in 1776 against the "Sovereign rule" of Great Britain and could not bear to have there pictures on the front of any card with a Sovereign back....... Ha Ha Brian

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12-20-2006, 02:18 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderTed, Assuming sequential brand production, if Sovereign was the earliest back in the 460-only print run it could explain why Kleinow and Smith were left out, since they joined the Boston club I believe in May and September of 1910, respectively. Perhaps these team switches occurred too late for these subjects to be printed with Sovereign 460, but not with the other 460 back types. Of course, this Sovereign-first explanation might not jibe with your primacy of Piedmont theory if that theory has a temporal component .... Scot

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12-21-2006, 09:28 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK....as you know Kleinow was traded in May 1910 and Smith was traded Aug 1910; and, in your analysis was that about the time that T206 was planning the final Series (460-only cards) ? Or, were these cards already produced ? I am not sure why I am asking this....but, it is very puzzling to me that these two Subjects are not available with the Sovereign brand. Because these two cards appear to be available with just about every other brand (except HINDU, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, DRUM and UZIT). One more thing......I know sometime back I stated....that I do not expect that these two cards will be found as Sovereigns. Do you concur with this ? TED Z

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12-21-2006, 10:02 AM

Posted By: Scot ReaderTed, I pegged the 460-only launch to the Fall of 1910 based on artwork completed the preceding Spring and Summer. So if Sovereign 460 were printed first it could explain the absence of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with that back. And I do agree with you that these subjects are likely unavailable with Sovereign 460--if they were available we probably would have seen them by now. Scot

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12-21-2006, 10:09 AM

Posted By: J HullIt's seemed to me that Smith (Chi & Bos) and Kleinow (Bos) are the easiest of the 48 cards in the 460-only series to find with Polar Bear backs. And also, that the most commonly found back on those two cards is Polar Bear. The general rule for the 460-onlys seems to be that Piedmont 350-460 factory 25 is most common, but not for those two cards. And so far as I've noticed, only those two cards have Polar Bear as the easiest brand to find. Not sure how that connects to not being present with Sovereign 460 backs, but maybe it does somehow. Jamie

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12-21-2006, 10:24 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Ted, I haven't seen a Kleinow, but Smith does exist with a UZIT back. Be well Brian

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12-21-2006, 12:00 PM

Posted By: Scot Reader Jamie, I think you are right about Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with Polar Bear. These two subjects seem easier to find with Polar Bear than Piedmont or Sweet Caporal. Not sure why that is. Ted, Brian: theories? Scot

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12-21-2006, 12:03 PM

Posted By: Joe D.that is an awesome item. I am not sure.... but I think those cards came in garbage-pail-kids packs <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-21-2006, 01:05 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Scot and Jamie, I'm not sure why Smith and Kleinow seem to show up more often with Polar Bear backs, but here are a few ideas: 1. Distribution: The Polar Bear brand dominated the loose tobacco market at the time and was sold throughout the country, not just in certain markets. It was also the only loose brand that contained cards, and I'm told that at least 2 cards were in each pack and as many as 6 have been reported in some. Personally I find Smith more often with Polar Bear backs, then Piedmont, while I see Kleinow more 50/50 between the two, and the Sweet Cap. Just a few thoughts. Be well Brian

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12-21-2006, 02:17 PM

Posted By: MillerhouseDear Ted, I can add three Broad Leaf 350 backs from my collection to your listing entered above on December 16: Dessau, Milligan and Phelps. (I also have 460 backs of M. Brown throwing (Chicago) and Willis throwing, but I suspect, without checking, that these are otherwise known.) Best regards and keep up the good work, Dan

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12-21-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks DAN..... For your inputs and the nice words. SCOT....JAMIE....BRIAN I am in full agreement....I have had, and have seen both these cards with POLAR BEAR backs more than any other back. And, very true regarding Piedmont 460 backs. When I was putting together my Piedmont-only set the Frank Smith card was one of the very last. And, not far behind was the Kleinow. It almost seems as the 3 most popular brands (P, SC, Sov) were "short-printed" or "no-printed" with respect to these two cards. And, "over-printed" with the other 460 backs. TED Z

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12-21-2006, 02:38 PM

Posted By: ddI own a delehanty and a malarkey

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12-21-2006, 05:46 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakisdd Thanks for you inputs. That makes 3 - Frank Delehanty BL 350 cards....your's, mine and Bill Brown's. TED Z

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12-22-2006, 07:07 AM

Posted By: J HullTed, Brian, Scot: One other, and obvious, thing that Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chicago & Bos) have in common that distinguishes them from the rest of the 460-only cards is the fact that their images are reused images from the 350 series. Maybe an explanation for their lacking Sovereign 460 is linked to that. So here’s a theory. Perhaps these two cards are a hybrid between the 350 series cards that were reprinted as 460s and the 460-onlys. Since the only change to the printing plates would have been in the typography line, the designers may have simply made that change between ending the 350 print run and initiating the 460 run. That would explain why Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chicago & Bos) lack any 350 backs. But if printed with the other 54 cards that were holdovers from the 350 series, Kleinow and Smith would not be available with Sovereign 460s. They also would not be available with Sweet Caporal 350-460 factory 30. Has anyone ever confirmed either of these two cards with that back? I have not been able to. Jamie

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12-22-2006, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTo date total = 90.....interestingly, 40 of the Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 6 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Beck Beckley Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 4 times Burchell Burke Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Dorner Downs Joe Dunn Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) McBride McGinley McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelps Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strange Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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12-22-2006, 02:13 PM

Posted By: Jim RiveraTed, In the last REA there was a BL lot that had 11 or 13 BL/350s in it.I know there was a Jackson and 2 Polands in the lot. I'll check my book and lyk the others.

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12-22-2006, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderJamie, This is great stuff. I want to think about it for a while before responding. Scot

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12-22-2006, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Art M.Ted, I have the following T206 with Broad Leaf 350 backs that are not showing up on your most recent list: Burns, Chicago American Clark, Columbus Summers, Detroit Art M.

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12-23-2006, 06:17 AM

Posted By: Scot ReaderOkay Jamie, Here goes. I believe your theory is correct and explains not only the relative scarcity of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) but also the relative scarcity of Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap). First we assume for purposes of this theory that Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) were not introduced with the 350-only subjects but rather were introduced with the 350/460 regular print subjects. As with other 350/460 regular print subjects, these two subjects were thus shortprinted with 350 backs (relative to a typical 350-only subject) and were supposed to be continued by a shortprinting with 460 backs (relative to a typical 460-only subject). However, the team switches occurred before their planned printing with the 460 backs, and thus these two subjects never made it to print with 460 backs. This accounts for the scarcity of Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) relative to a typical 350-only subject. I think most would agree that these two subjects are more difficult than a typical 350-only subject. My survey data bear this out, as does the PSA population report. Now, thanks to you, I think we know why. Continuing on, the caption changes were made and the shortprinting with the 460 backs proceeded with Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) INSTEAD OF their predecessors Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap). This explains the well-documented scarcity of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) relative to a typical 460-only subject. WHAT DOES THIS THEORY TELL US? First, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) should be just about as difficult to find as a typical 350/460 regular print subject is WITH BACKS CHARACTERISTIC OF THE 350 SERIES. I have data at my office, but I believe this means there should be roughly 2/3 as many of these cards floating around as cards of a typical 350/460 regular print subject. A price premium thus seems warranted. Second, Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) should be just about as difficult to find as a typical 350/460 regular print subject is WITH BACKS CHARACTERISTIC OF THE 460 SERIES. I believe this means there should be roughly 1/3 as many of these cards extant as a typical 350/460 regular print subject. A substantial price premium is thus warranted. HOW DO WE PROVE THIS THEORY? There are several ways. First, we can look, as Jamie has suggested, at the ABSENCE of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) with Sovereign 460 and Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30. These are fairly common backs that appear ONLY on 460-only subjects. Importantly, Bill Brown and Ted Z. have been able to find the Sovereign 460 back on ALL of the 54 460-only subjects EXCEPT Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston). My survey data also show no examples of either of these subjects with either of these plentiful backs. This is highly supportive of the theory. Second, we can look at Brian W.'s Broadleaf 460 data. All of the confirmed Broadleaf 460s are found on 350/460 regular print subjects, EXCEPT Kleinow (Boston) and Schaefer (Washington). Let's set Schaefer aside for the moment. The existence of Kleinow (Boston) with Broadleaf 460 is supportive of the theory set forth here. Additional considerations that would advance this theory would be the ABSENCE of Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) with backs that are only available on 350-only subjects (and the six 350/460 superprints). These backs include American Beauty 350 with Frame, Broadleaf 350, Carolina Brights and Cycle 350. Consistent with the theory, Ted Z.'s post on this very thread indicated that these two subjects have not been confirmed with Broadleaf 350. Does anyone have either of these subjects with American Beauty 350 with Frame, Carolina Brights or Cycle 350? If this theory is correct, I would suspect not. A final consideration that would in my mind remove nearly all doubt about the correctness of this theory would be confirmation of either Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) or Smith (Chicago White Cap) with the American Beauty 350 No Frame back. With the lone exception of Nichols, this back has been seen only on 350/460 regular print subjects. If either Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) or Smith (Chicago White Cap) could be confirmed with this back, the present theory would be meanigfully advanced. Comments welcome. Scot

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12-23-2006, 06:38 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJAMIE Your theory is a valid one....and especially since both Kleinow and Smith for many years were considered to be available as 350/460 series cards. However, I am not sure I fully understand your explanation why they were not printed with Sovereign 460 backs........ while they are available with numerous other Tobacco brands ? JIM R and ART M Thanks for your inputs, I will update the list sometime soon....with your inputs we will be over the 1/2 way point of all the possible Broad Leaf 350 cards. TED Z

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12-23-2006, 07:29 AM

Posted By: J HullScot: Great, great post. You fleshed things out extremely well. Ted: The explanation seems to be that Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chicago & Bos) aren't really true 460-only cards. They should be viewed as 350/460s which were slightly modified by the designers between the 350 and 460 print runs. Thus, like all the other 350/460s, they lack Sovereign 460 backs (and SC 350-460 F30). Now, why all those cards lack those two backs is another question. I don't think it was a matter of timing. We know that Uzit was printed and distributed at the very tail end of T206 production, only covering the final month or two, if I'm remembering right. And yet 350/460s can be found with Uzit backs -- and in fact, as Brian W noted earlier, Smith (Chicago & Bos) has been confirmed with a Uzit back. I would guess that ATC simply decided to stop running as many baseball player cards in the Sweet Caporal and Sovereign brands, and facilitated that by reducing the number of T206s being packed with Sweet Caporals out of Factory 30 and with Sovereigns out of VA Factory 25. The easiest way to do that might have been to just not include cards from one print run. Obviously they didn't stop altogether, because the 460-only cards were packed with these brands in these factories and distributed. I don't collect non-sports cards of the era, but many, many different sets were packaged with Sovereigns and Sweet Caporals. I would guess that ATC just switched to more flags or fish or state capitals or whatever for a few months. Jamie

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12-23-2006, 08:17 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJAMIE Pardon me, but my thinking must of been momentarily out in "la-la" land.....I should have understood what you said the first time, by virtue of my own observations in putting to- gether the Sovereign set that I am working on. Thanks for your very astute analysis on these two "mysterious" cards. SCOT R Excellent analysis and presentation on this subject. It's posts like yours and Jamie's that make this Forum really worthwhile. TED Z

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12-23-2006, 08:21 AM

Posted By: Scot ReaderTed, Jamie: If I can crystallize things a bit: For shorthand we can call the theory the Kleinow/Smith Bifurcation Theory. It holds: 1. Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Kleinow (Boston) TOGETHER had a print coextensive with the 350/460 regular print (RP) subjects. Thus, IN COMBINATION they should be found with the same backs as 350/460 regular prints and IN COMBINATION they should be as plentiful as 350/460 RP subjects. 2. Smith (Chicago White Cap) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) TOGETHER had a print coextensive with the 350/460 RP subjects. Thus, IN COMBINATION they should be found with the same backs as other 350/460 regular prints and IN COMBINATION they should be as plentiful as other 350/460 regular prints. 3. MORE PARTICULARLY, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chigaco White Cap) underwent the 350 series portion of the 350/460 RP print run. Thus, these subjects should be found with the same 350 series backs as the 350/460 RP subjects. This set of backs is somewhat different than the set of backs that can be found on the 350-only subjects. For example, unlike 350-only subjects, these two subjects should not be found with American Beauty 350 With Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights or Cycle 350. These two subjects should also be found in similar quantities as the 350/460 RP subjects with 350 series backs. 4. Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) underwent the 460 series portion of 350/460 RP print run. Thus, these subjects should be found with the same 460 series backs as the 350/460 RP subjects. This set of backs is somewhat different than the set of backs that can be found on the 460-only subjects. For example, unlike 460-only subjects, these two subjects should not be found with Sovereign 460 or Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30. These two subjects should also be found in similar quantities as the 350/460 RP subjects with 460 series backs.

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12-23-2006, 10:03 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThis is great stuff.......now can we expand this theory to account for the remaining 64 cards (350 Series) that appear to be Sovereign "No-Prints" ? TED Z

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12-23-2006, 02:36 PM

Posted By: J HullScot: Nice summary of what we know about Kleinow and Smith. As Ted said, they certainly are "mysterious." There's still the lingering mystery of why Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chicago & Bos) are more plentiful with Polar Bear backs than any other brand. If we now move those cards into the 350-460 category, this fact doesn't seem quite so anomolous. From what I've been able to tell, the 350-460 cards are about 2.75 times more common with Polar Bear backs than the 460-only cards are. Quite a few of the (perhaps now 56) cards in 350-460 series seem to be at least as commonly found with Polar Bear as they are with Piedmont 350, Piedmont 350-460, or any other back. However, presumably the 350-460s were double-printed with Polar Bear backs, once in the 350 series and once in the 460 series -- or at least once, who knows how the print runs were actually managed. Thus the high Polar Bear frequency on these cards. And therein lies the mystery. Kleinow (NY) and Smith (White Cap) are found with Polar Bear backs, so the explanation isn't as easy as saying that the team change was made to the cards DURING the 350 series, before Polar Bears were printed (and, necessarily, that PB was the final brand printed in that series). If that had been the case, Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chicago & Bos) would have been double-printed like the other 350-460s and...mystery solved. Jamie

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12-23-2006, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Scot ReaderJamie, I agree with your comments about the relative abundance of Polar Bear with the 350/460 RP subjects and that being at least a partial explanation of the high frequency of occurence of that back on Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston). Perhaps the Polar Bear back was printed throughout the print run of the 350/460 RP series with a higher concentration in the 460 series portion of that run. I will still continue to categorize these two subjects as 460-only rather than 350/460 RP due to the fact that they do not appear with any 350 back. I will continue to speak of Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap) as 350-only subjects for similar reasons. That said, I think these four subjects really have to be treated as a special case due to their 350/460 RP qualities. Ted, I don't have an answer for you on the 64 no prints. With T206 there is always more research to do. Scot

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12-23-2006, 10:47 PM

Posted By: BcD <img src="http://www.richardarmstrong.ca/BCD/brownbl460.JPG"> here she is.......... I have a psa 5 Johnson hands on chest somewhere as well as an AB psa 5 Johnson I purchased from Quan~ BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-24-2006, 12:44 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis"With T206 there is always more research to do"....well said Scot....regarding the Sovereign "No-Prints" in the 350 series and the 350/460. There seems to be a pattern in that some of these cards exist essentially with Piedmont, Sweet Caporal's Fac 25 and Fac 30; and, very few (if any) additional brands. Then, there are quite a few, that have AB, BL, CYCLE, CB, EPDG, OM, PB and SC 350/30; however, no Sov 350 or SC 350/25......Doc White (pitch) and Vic Willis (throw) are two examples of this in the 350/460 Series. The common denominator here being Factory 25 (Sovereign & Sweet Cap/25)....No Prints. Now, we know that in the 350 series Amer. Bty, Broad Leaf, Carolina Brts, Cycle, and Old Mill are all Fac. 25.....therefore, perhaps T206 guys switched away from Sov & SC to provide more premiuns for promoting these 5 new Tobacco brands.? Is my imagination running "wild" again, or is there some thing of substance here to ponder ? Check this out guys.....I will post next a reprise of my Sovereign No-Prints list for reference. TED Z

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12-24-2006, 12:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHere is the list from the Sovereign Thread 350 Series cards Abstein Adkins Arellanes Barbeau Barger Becker Bliss Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Charles Clark Clymer Cross Davidson Frank Delehanty Demmitt (NY) Dessau Dorner Elberfeld (port-Wash) Engle Evans Fletcher Freeman Ganzel Graham (St Louis) Gray Groom Hayden Hoffman (St Louis) Hunter Davy Jones La Porte Lattimore Lord Lundgren (KC) Maddox Maloney Marshall Mattern McAleese McBride McElveen McLean Milan Dots Miller Mullen (port) Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Nattress Phillippe Puttman Rhodes Ritter Rudolph Schirm Schlafly Schreck Shannon Sharpe Snodgrass (bat) Starr Willett 350/460 Series cards Doc White (pitching) Willis (throwing)

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12-24-2006, 07:36 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner<img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0021.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0022.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0018.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0020.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0023.jpg"> <img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0024.jpg">

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12-24-2006, 12:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI have added Doc White (pitching) and Vic Willis (throwing) to the list of No-Prints. These two cards appear to be good examples from the 350/460 Series that are No-Prints in not only Sovereign 350, but also Sweet Caporal 350 Fac. 25. But, are found with several of the 460 backs. There is a likely probability that I'll be proven wrong on these two cards since they are in the 350/360 group; anyhow, for now I consider them No-Prints. TED Z

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12-26-2006, 02:15 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for your inputs and neat scans....Jim R....Art M....BcD....Brian W. The Broad Leaf 350 list will be updated with your data in the next post. TED Z

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12-26-2006, 02:16 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTo date total = 95.....interestingly, 44 of the Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 6 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Beck Beckley Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 5 times Burchell Burke Burns Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Clark Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Dorner Downs Joe Dunn Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Jackson Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) McBride McGinley McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelps Poland Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strang Summers Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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12-27-2006, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedCan you explain why so many Bresnahan's lead the "pack" here with these Broad Leaf backs ? Was he "extra-printed" or is this just mere coincidence ? ? Also, have had a chance to "mull" over my Fac. 25 theory (posted in several prior posts in this thread) regarding the relative "scarcity" of Piedmont 460 and SC 460/25 cards for certain guys like Kleinow, Smith, Wheat, etc. ? Although, we know that these are sometimes easier to find with other Fac. 25 brands such as Am. Bty, Cycle, Old Mill, and even Broad Leaf, and perhaps your favorite, Carolina Brights. And, I think this same theory also applies to some of the 350 series cards. Anyhow, let me tell you....that is really a great picture of you and your wife. You're much younger looking than I imagined. TED Z

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12-27-2006, 03:15 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Buddy, I think Bresnahan batting would be considered the "Super Print" of the 350 only series. He is by far the most available Hofer in the series and has been located with all of the possible brands that I am aware of except for Drum. As to why? I don't have a clue,other than the sheet he was on seems to have been used quite a bit. The 460 Kleinow/Smith thread: I'll have to do a bit more research on that one as I have both cards with Piedmont Factory 25 and 42's. I probably have the Sweet Caps too, but I don't track the factories as well on my spread sheets. I'll get back to you..... Age?? 38 and holding, almost 39, and would you guess my wife is older? Yep, by about a month. I just hope we can make it as long as you have and look so good. But, of course your only as old as you feel, and by your tone, picture and post you seem more like 30 than late 50's....... Besides it's not the age it's the milage and the laughter in between. In a house full of girls, I'm sure I won't look young much longer. Be well Brian

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12-27-2006, 11:17 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNice going on the Smith and Kleinow.....Piedmont 460/42 cards you displayed on the other Thread. I have Smith with American Bty 460, Old Mill, Polar Bear, but had a heck of a time finding him with just a P460/25 back for my Piedmont set. In fact he was the last card of the 518 cards in this set. . And, I never even considered finding a P460/42 card of him. OK, I wish I was still in my late '50s, so I appreciate your saying so. I am a decade older. I have two daughters....Zoe and Debbie....and three grandchildren that keep my wife and I feeling young. The secret to staying young is getting thru their teenage years. TED Z

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12-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIn an earlier post on this Thread, we have determined that there are approx. 192 possible Subjects in this set that were printed with BL 350 backs. At this point we have confirmed 96 and are only 1/2 of the way there. So, it's time for all you T206 guy's, that have not contributed yet, to show or tell us of your BL 350's ? TED Z

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01-01-2007, 07:16 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedLast chance to show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards....even if we have yours already on the confirmed list. We just can't get enough of these cards; and, its interesting to see which ones seem to be more available. We have 96 confirmed; and, somewhere about 96 more possible ones that we have not seen. That is quite good yield.....50%. Considering how tough it is to find this T206 back. Thanks to all who have contributed their time and effort to make this Thread a success. Wishing ALL a very HAPPY NEW YEAR TED Z

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01-01-2007, 09:03 AM

Posted By: JimBI apologize for my delayed response to this thread. I have two additions not on the list: Congalton, Columbus Bender, with trees Good luck with this. JimB Edited to add: They are both Broadleaf 350's.

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01-01-2007, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJimB No apology necessary, and thanks for these two new inputs. I will be updating the list as soon as we hit the 100 mark. Ted Z

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01-03-2007, 12:26 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisUPDATED to include 2 inputs from JimB and one from a "reader" who emailed me. To date total = 98.....interestingly, 46 of the Subjects are Minor Leaguers and there are only 7 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bender, Bresnahan, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abstein Adkins Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Beck Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 5 times Burchell Burke Burns Bush Butler Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clancy Clark Congalton Davidson Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Dorner Downs Joe Dunn Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Jackson Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) McBride McGinley McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelps Poland Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strang Summers Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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01-03-2007, 12:56 PM

Posted By: BillTed, Checking over the "Super Set" data, there has been 138 different Broadleaf 350 recorded. BB

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01-03-2007, 01:09 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou have to send me an updated Spread Sheet. You must of had a huge number of inputs since the last one (dated 12/14) that I looked at. TED Z

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01-04-2007, 04:44 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for the updated SS.....but, all I see are minute marks that have been added to quite a few Broad Leaf 350 slots. Is there some kind of significance to these marks ? Or, are they confirmed cards that I can add to the list in this Thread ? Thanks, TED Z

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01-04-2007, 05:47 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTo date total = 124....interestingly, of these Subjects, 53 are Minor Leaguers and there are 9 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bender, Bresnahan, Chance, Cobb, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, and Speaker. Abbott Abstein Adkins Armbruster Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Barry (Milw) Beck Becker Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 5 times Burchell Burke Burns Bush Butler Campbell Carrigan Casey Cassidy Chappelle Chance (yellow) Charles Chase (blue) Clancy Clark Cobb (bat off) Congalton Cree Davidson Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Doolan (fldg) Dorner Downey (fldg) Downs Dubuc Jack Dunn (Balt) Joe Dunn Dygert Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Hinchman (Tol) Hoblitzell Hoffman (St Lo) Hofman Howard (Chi) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Hulswitt Hunter Jackson Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Knight (port) Knight (bat) Krause (pitch) Kroh Kruger Lennox Maddox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) McBride McGinley McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelps Poland Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rudolph Schreck Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strang Summers Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman

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01-05-2007, 06:53 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI believe I can predict, with a high level of certainty, which cards in the T206 set exist with BL 350 backs (besides the ones we have confirmed in this Thread). There is a pattern evident with certain cards in the 350 Series that do not exist with Sweet Caporal 350 Fac. 25 backs, but are invariably found with BL 350 backs. If this theory is correct, then the following 22 cards should eventually surface with BL 350 backs.... Anderson Atz Barger Bescher (port) Carr Clymer Jimmy Collins Evans Fiene (port) Gasper Hall Kelley Lattimore Livingstone Mattern McElveen Mitchell (Cinc) Pickering Shannon Stephens Tannehill (Wash) White (Buffalo) How's about some of you serious T206 guys searching some more to see if we can find these cards ? T-Rex TED

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01-05-2007, 07:45 PM

Posted By: Anonymousprobably a dumb question but what back is the rarest on these cards? and what does it do to the price if compared to a common back? thanks

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01-06-2007, 06:17 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMIKE 1st....there is never a dumb question regarding the T206 cards....in it's entirety, it is a complicated set. If I understand your question....the DRUM back is certainly the toughest back.... and it can only be found on cards in the 350 Series. And, others might say the "TY COBB" back is the toughest......but, many in this hobby do not believe that this particular card was originally part of the T206 set. It is a unique back that only exists with a Ty Cobb front. And, it's Factory (#33) belies this belief....as it's Factory # does not exist on any other T206 card. TED Z

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01-06-2007, 01:52 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNew inputs...... Lavender Moran (Prov) Ritter Street (port) Warhop

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01-06-2007, 02:11 PM

Posted By: leonYou know 1000 times more than I about T206 but I would also say the Ty Cobb back cards have a different gloss, not unlike the T213-2 series, and unlike other T206's. Also, in my short tenure I have seen far more Drums than BL460's.....but I will defer to your expertise over mine anyday....

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01-06-2007, 02:18 PM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Leon, Your both right, Broadleaf 460's are tougher than Drum's as a back, but as a Brand, Drum is by far the toughest. Be well Brian

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01-06-2007, 02:31 PM

Posted By: Judson HamlinTed- Found some more records that I had been keeping from 93-99 or so and can add the following to the list: Livingstone Maloney McAleese McGinnity Phelan Rhodes (StL) Scott Young (Minn) All seen personally at shows/dealers/auction/etc. Good luck on the continued search

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01-06-2007, 03:08 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldTed, I'm with you on the Cobb back not belonging to the T206s but am wondering about JimB's take on this. I understand that he has done some work on this issue. JimB? all the best, barry

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01-06-2007, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI didn't mention the glossiness on the the front of the TY Cobb/Ty Cobb card, since nowadays, all (or most) of them are in encapsulated in plastic and readers of this would not be able to discern this difference from a normal T206. But, it's good you brought this up so that collectors are fully aware of the differences, and why many of us disagree with this card being classified as a "true" T206. TED Z

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01-07-2007, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTo date total = 136....interestingly, of these Subjects, 60 are Minor Leaguers and there are 10 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bender, Bresnahan, Chance, Cobb, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, McGinnity, and Speaker. Abbott Abstein Adkins Armbruster Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Barry (Milw) Beck Becker Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 6 times Burchell Burke Burns Bush Butler Campbell Carrigan Casey Cassidy Chappelle Chance (yellow) Charles Chase (blue) Clancy Clark Cobb (bat off) Congalton Cree Davidson Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Doolan (fldg) Dorner Downey (fldg) Downs Dubuc Jack Dunn (Balt) Joe Dunn Dygert Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Hinchman (Tol) Hoblitzell Hoffman (St Lo) Hofman Howard (Chi) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Hulswitt Hunter Jackson Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Knight (port) Knight (bat) Krause (pitch) Kroh Kruger Lavender Lennox Livingstone Maddox Malarkey Maloney Marquard (portrait) McAleese McBride McGinley McGinnity McGlynn McLean Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Moran (Prov) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelan Phelps Poland Purtell Quillen Rhoades Rhodes Ritter Rudolph Schreck Scott Sharpe Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strang Street (port) Summers Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Warhop Willett Wilson Wright Irv Young Zimmerman

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01-07-2007, 05:45 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThanks for all your inputs, they are in the new updated list. And, Livingstone happens to be one of the 22 cards listed in my prior post....."Predictability of BL 350's". OK guys, I know these BL 350's are really tough. But, look at the progress we have made in confirming 138 of them. There are certainly more of them out there to be confirmed; so, let us not give up on them yet.....show or tell us of any more of your BROAD LEAF's. Here I am repeating the list of my "predictable" BL 350's that have not yet been confirmed.... Anderson Atz Barger Bescher (port) Carr Clymer Jimmy Collins Evans Fiene (port) Gasper Hall Kelley Lattimore Livingstone....confirmed Mattern McElveen Mitchell (Cinc) Pickering Shannon Stephens Tannehill (Wash) White (Buffalo) Thanks, TED Z

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01-07-2007, 07:36 PM

Posted By: DylanIf the Ty Cobb w/Cobb back is not part of the T206 set, then which set is it a part of? Are you suggesting that it makes up a set all by itself? I would consider it a part of the T206 set but only regionally produced. Also take into consideration that the Cobb pose on the front of the card is not part of any other set.

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01-08-2007, 05:36 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNew inputs..... LaPorte Milan Phillippe Shaw (Prov)

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01-08-2007, 06:25 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThe Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card is indeed a mystery. But, because of the different style of printing on its front and its unique Factory #33 on the back, it makes it very difficult to accept this card as part of the original T206 set. It is more like the T213-type (Coupon Cigarettes) cards. I have not seen the Cobb in the T213-1 set (Mild Cigs.), but I've seen the Cobb in the T213-3 set, and Cobb's picture is identical to the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card. So, I'm sorry, but I have to differ with you on this account. You are aware that Factory #33 does not exist on any of the 524 cards in the T206 set ? And, this is a very important factor that reinforces the theory that this card is from another issue, or that it just stands alone as a "single card" issue. T-Rex TED

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01-08-2007, 11:57 AM

Posted By: DylanWell from that point of view ted you can argue that both polar bear, produced in factory #6, and el principe de Gales, produced in factory #17, are both unique sets due to no other brands using their factory designations. Just like Cobb and factory 33. I agree that the card is mysterious, but the circumstantial evidence imo still points to it being a part of T206 until something more concrete showing otherwise is discovered.

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01-08-2007, 03:17 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisDYLAN There are some T206 veteran collectors in the hobby that think exactly that....that each Tobacco brand is a set unto itself. The Piedmont brand leads the pack, as it comprises all 522 cards; and, it is the only brand that includes this many Subjects. The Sweet Caporal (Factory 30) brand I think includes 470 cards and is the 2nd most available "subset" The Sovereign brand would be 3rd and it includes approx. 400 cards. And, each subsequent brand (EPDG, HINDU, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, etc.) has less cards in its subset. Therefore, there is nothing unusual about the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card being a single issue "subset". TED Z

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01-09-2007, 07:19 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNew inputs..... Randall Raymond Schirm

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01-09-2007, 09:25 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisTo date total = 143....interestingly, of these Subjects, 64 are Minor Leaguers and there are 10 reported HOFers....Beckley, Bender, Bresnahan, Chance, Cobb, Huggins, Joss, Marquard, McGinnity, and Speaker. Abbott Abstein Adkins Armbruster Arellanes Arndt Barbeau Barry (A's) Barry (Milw) Beck Becker Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Bresnahan (bat)....reported 6 times Burchell Burke Burns Bush Butler Campbell Carrigan Casey Cassidy Chappelle Chance (yellow) Charles Chase (blue) Clancy Clark Cobb (bat off) Congalton Cree Davidson Frank Delehanty....reported 3 times Dessau Dineen Donovan (throw) Doolan (fldg) Dorner Downey (fldg) Downs Dubuc Jack Dunn (Balt) Joe Dunn Dygert Engle Freeman Ganzel Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hallman Hartsell Hayden Hinchman (Tol) Hoblitzell Hoffman (St Lo) Hofman Howard (Chi) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Hulswitt Hunter Jackson Davy Jones Joss (pitch) Killian (portrait) Kisinger Knabe Knight (port) Knight (bat) Krause (pitch) Kroh Kruger LaPorte Lavender Lennox Livingstone Maddox Malarkey Maloney Marquard (portrait) McAleese McBride McGinley McGinnity McGlynn McLean Milan Miller (Pitt) Milligan Mitchell Moeller Moran (Chicago) Moran (Prov) Mullen Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fldg) Nattress Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Phelan Phelps Phillippe Poland Purtell Quillen Randall Raymond Rhoades Rhodes Ritter Rudolph Schirm Schreck Scott Sharpe Shaw Slagle Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Strang Street (port) Summers Sweeney (bat) Taylor Titus Unglaub Warhop Willett Wilson Wright Irv Young Zimmerman