What makes a great collector? [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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12-15-2006, 12:50 PM

Posted By: MVSNYCanyone who has millions of dollars can buy a ton of great stuff...does this alone make them a great collector? absolutely NOT! here are few characteristics, that IMO, make for a great collector: 1. knowledge & passion in the sport they are collecting (history, players, etc...then obviosuly it can go much deeper...knowing stats, equipment used, stadiums, etc...) 2. knowledge & passion of collecting (not only variations, sets, error cards, etc, but also knowing who are the best dealers, auction houses, etc) 3. creativeness (ability to think of and propose attractive deals with fellow collectors) 4. being able to work on a budget, and parlay what you own into more & making your set better and more valueable...and ultimately build a super collection on a limited budget... i guess if i thought about it long enough i can come up with more...but these are my first thoughts... MVS NYC

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12-15-2006, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzcollect as many sets as possible in psa 8 or higher

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12-15-2006, 01:34 PM

Posted By: John H.First of all, you have to be born with the collecting gene. Not everyone is and, personally, I just don't understand it.<g> I think a great collector is someone who does it for the love of his chosen collectible(s). Someone who doesn't spend more money than he or she can afford but someone who picks their spots and tries to bring in their chosen material in a cost effective manner. I think it's important to be well educated and have a good understanding of the subject that you are collecting and a good collector must have a passion for that subject. Collecting for the sake of having something to collect doesn't cut it. That's why my collecting interests have changed so many times in the course of my life. As soon as I find something new to consume me I tend to lose a great deal of interest in my previous passion. The opposite also holds true. If my collectible of choice becomes less attractive, e.g. modern sports cards, I'll lose interest and inevitably find something else to pick up on. John

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12-15-2006, 01:40 PM

Posted By: jPI agree with both Jeff and Chris. way to go guys. <img src="http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/ball.jpg"> my collection: <a href="http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/</a>

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12-15-2006, 01:52 PM

Posted By: dstudebaThe ability to get people to pay their deliquent bills in an efficient, legal, and respectful manner.

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12-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind A great collector by definition is one who has built a world class collection. Whether it is the Rockefeller collection of African art, Forbes collection of Faberge eggs, Elisaberg coin collection or Wharton-Tigar tobacco card collection, the quality of the collection was world class in every way. Each of these collectors contributed greatly to the public's base of knowledge in their writings and lectures and ultimately the collections each found their way into a museum. A great collector must be far more than a nice person who loves the hobby; he or she must be a true student of the craft; someone who is passionate about his/her chosen specialty and someone who is focused on acquiring outstanding examples of the items that he/she collects. Most great collectors have taken the time to learn about the provenance of the items they collect, whilst focusing on acquiring the best known examples, extant. We are not suggesting that only those who collect the highest graded cards can be called great collectors, but rather that one's contribution to the craft and one's level of taste are essential criteria for the great collector Bruce America's Toughest Want List

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12-15-2006, 02:06 PM

Posted By: jay behrensWe just wretched all over our keyboard whilst reading that last post. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-15-2006, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Josh Adams"A great collector by definition is one who has built a world class collection." Respectfully, Bruce, that is YOUR definition of a great collector. Why does it have to be high end? Is it possible to be a "great collector" and only have cards that are either low grade, or unslabbed in "collector's condition?" For example, if a collector has a HR Kisses set in low grade, a complete CJ set in PSA 1, and an Minio Cig. set, in low grade. Would they not be a "great collector?" In all sincerity, I am interested in your response to these questions. Certainly, those with high grade collections are impressive, and very interesting to look at. But lets not mistake a bank account with a large number attached to it, with a collector who has an "baseball card IQ" with a low number attached to it. Josh Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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12-15-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: leonC'mon now.....we had a deal....I actually agree with some of what Bruce said...

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12-15-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)(Leon, you rang...) Jay, I guess a lot of us just wretched all over the keyboard... Since I'm just a lowly uneducated ignorant collector of crap I'll just WHILE instead of WHILST "reading that last post"... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-15-2006, 02:23 PM

Posted By: sagardA great collector contributes their knowledge to message boards freely and respectfully. What they have in their collection is secondary to me. Measuring great collections does not equate to measuring great collectors.

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12-15-2006, 02:33 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Dear Josh Certainly the people you are referring to would be "great collectors" of the items suggested...however, if you are looking at the macro definition of a great collection...it would be difficult to argue that there is not a role for condition. We are not saying a PSA 9 1957 Topps set makes for a great collector.. it does, however, make for a great 1957 Topps collection. If one were to look at the breadth and scope of the top 100 collectors, most, certainly not all, attempted to obtain the best possible samples. Of course, at a time when technology and communications were limited and there were few dealers, virtually no auctions and certainly no grading, standards for early hobbyists were a bit different. No one would argue that Barker, Burdick and Nagy were not great collectors. However, it the was breadth and scope of their collection, and their contribution to the hobby that elevated their status from a person with a very impressive collection to a great collector. All the best, Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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12-15-2006, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Josh AdamsThanks Bruce. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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12-15-2006, 02:41 PM

Posted By: DJI agree with all (except for Bruce's laughable opening statement) especially the passion and John's statement about the collecting gene. People in my life don't collect and look at me like I'm insane. A great collector lives and breathes what he gathers. Whether it be Pez dispenser's, twenty-five cent bottle caps or Cow Milk ceramics, money has NOTHING to do with being a great collector. DJ

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12-15-2006, 02:52 PM

Posted By: Jeff PriznerThere are so many definitions of the word "great," that really all of the above responses hold true. By definition, you can be a great collector by simply being a good person who collects things, or you can be a great collector by being an expert and having a world-class collection.

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12-15-2006, 03:02 PM

Posted By: JayThe dictionary defines collector as one who collects. I believe to be a great collector one must have, or have had, a great collection. So, in this respect I agree with Bruce. It need not be all encompassing or particularily valuable, just "great". If one is very knowledgeable about the hobby and a great teacher they are just that, but to be a great collector they must have the collection also. Like him or not, this is the reason Alan Rosen IMO is not a great collector---no collection.

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12-15-2006, 03:04 PM

Posted By: leonI will see your collection and up you 1. Here's a question for you. Can someone have a great collection and not be a great collector?

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12-15-2006, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffHave you all learned nothing from recent board activity? Clearly what makes a great collector is the total number of PSA 8s they own. There is a scale from 1 to 100 with 100 being "America's Toughest" and 1 being "Canada's Easiest." Sadly, a 1983 Topps Tony Gwynn is all that keeps me from being entirely shut out in the world of card collecting greatness. COLLECTOR: Ryan Christoff GREATNESS RATING (1-100): 1 -Ryan

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12-15-2006, 03:32 PM

Posted By: jay behrensAll you have to do is look at the PSA registry. I have no doubt there are "collectors" on that list that are more interested in the competition than the history and the story behind the cards and the players. As was pointed out, it very easy to throw money at anything when you have it. The acquisition of knowledge about the cards you collect is much harder. Even with the internet, there are still collectors in all fields that collect because they think it is cool and some sort of status symbol, yet know almost nothing about what they collect outside the basics. Leon, I'd apologize for the comment, but I can only take so much greatest, best, etc with that pompous attitude. The whole thread comes across as an ass kissing affair rather than something that could have been worthwhile. Maybe Bruce needs to spend some of the bank account on some courses on how to project a less pompous and arrogant attitude when he writes. Another tip for Bruce, quit claiming it's not about the money. Every post you make IS about the money. When you understand that, you'll understand why most people on this board find your attitude distasteful. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-15-2006, 03:35 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, you have to admit one thing about Bruce: no coach of his would ever say to him that there is "no I in 'team'". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-15-2006, 03:37 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Holy crap Ryan, do you own a PSA10 1983 Tony Gwynn Topps Rookie number 482 card? Suffice to say that I have more 10s than you do... ok, so they're SGC10s..... I'm just a "mediocre collector"....

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12-15-2006, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Dan LundriganWould Mr. Mint qualify as someone who has a great collection but is not a great collector!

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12-15-2006, 04:15 PM

Posted By: barrysloateTo answer Leon's question, I suppose you could inherit a great collection and not be a great collector, but great collections are usually put together by people who know how to do it. In the old days when cards weren't that expensive and most of us were on a somewhat even playing field, it took resourcefulness and hard work to build a great collection. Today, it just takes a computer, an auction catalog, and a big wallet. You push a few buttons at 2:00 in the morning and voila, you have a great collection. Times certainly have changed.

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12-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Mr. Behrens pontificates endlessly, to plead his case for the poor and starving collecting under-class. He wears his anti-establishment badge of courage proudly. Those who choose to work for a living and earn large incomes are bad, and those who run away from responsibility and are incapable of making money are special and should be treated accordingly, One wonders whether Mr. Behrens would advocate a leftist revolution and order that the great collections become state property so they can be distributed among the poor, but brilliant collectors who have so few cards but so much knowledge. Perhaps, Mr. Behrens should move to a poor Muslim country in Africa where his views on class warfare would be well received and his $1500 lifetime expenditure on cards would be considered Bill Gates-like. The reality is that there were many great collections that were built with relatively limited funds...but that was at a time, when there were inefficient markets, poor communications and few benchmarks for measuring value. It was a hobby based on trading not buying and selling. As best as we can tell, more than $650 million has been spent in the past five years at baseball memoribilia auctions and on E-Bay. Given that fact, how could any one build a great collection or be a great collector without spending a reasonable amount of money? Can you be a great collector and not have a collection? In fact, the comment was made that Alan Rosen is not a great collector because he does have a collection. Mr. Behrens when you have finished chewing your tobacco, chew on those thoughts for a while. Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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12-15-2006, 04:37 PM

Posted By: AlanHow about a definition of "greatest" that means "Best respect for a fellow collector" ie a collector who can only afford extremely low-grade raw cards in the bargin bins ? In other words, which of these big-time, high-end collectors will make time of day to be friendly & talk with to a poor slob like myself fishing thru the bargin bins ? That's the collector who should get "greatest collector" title !!! Alan

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12-15-2006, 04:44 PM

Posted By: John SOh boy...here we go again Serfs vs. Lords XXV.

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12-15-2006, 04:47 PM

Posted By: DJCan someone have a great collection and not be a great collector? That's an interesting question. Perhaps a "koan" of some sorts. I have a friend of mine who was born in 1957 and recently got caught up in the whole PSA Registry. He has all the money in the world and therefore he wants to create a PSA 8,9 and 10. Does he know what he is collecting? No. Does he know anything about baseball? Not really. All he knows is that he can create a better 1957 set than the others in the Registry. He just collects for the sake of collecting and his interests aren't dedicated to one area, but scattered around. I bet he doesn't even know what he has. My best guess is that he'll give up and move on to something else in the near future and all that will be left of this venture is maybe fifty slabbed cards of players he doesn't know or really cares all that much about. DJ edit: I agree with Peter below. I hope Leon steps in and does something about this new trend of belittling the small dollar collector.

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12-15-2006, 04:50 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethAlthough I don't always agree with him, I find his point of view and his candor refreshing, and I see no need to insult him with class-laden invective.

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12-15-2006, 04:55 PM

Posted By: John SI was a better collector when I was about twelve. I had stacks of books about cards and old baseball and football players. I knew all the stats and every card purchased was cherished. I used to stash '59 Topps football cards (the first vintage set I ever worked on) under the seat in my parents '75 Malibu Classic so I had something to look at when we were in transit. At 35 I still love the cards but they are much easier to come by and definitely not appreciated as much as they once were. No longer are they stashed in car but usually scanned, inventoried, and stowed away either in the closet or safety deposit box. I think a great collector is someone who respects the hobby by sharing knowledge and realizing that no matter how many cards he/she has that they are no better than the young kid across the street opening packs of Topps.

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12-15-2006, 05:05 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWell, I see this thread is heading past 100 posts. Gentlemen, let the fighting begin! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-15-2006, 05:10 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthRemoved out of respect for Leon. Sometimes the truth is just too painful.

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12-15-2006, 05:12 PM

Posted By: peter chaoLeon, I'm glad you didn't decide to lock all divisive threads. The First Amendment is great and it's a lot of fun. Who knows, from reading this thread we may even have a better idea about what makes a great collector. Peter

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12-15-2006, 05:13 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanThe people that I know that I would put in the category all have 1 single thread that ties them together. Quite simply they collect each and every set in whatever grade they can find. Initially when serious collecting began in the early 20th century thru the 1980's even the entire focus was on filling holes and filling them all, with whatever they could find. By doing so in the course of 20-30 years these collectors managed to amass nearly every set in completeness from the commonest common to the toughest rarity. Along the way they also picked up lots of unknown material as well, they were/are truely hobby pioneers. There are several collectors that fall in this category, some you would recognize others you might not. Burdick would be a prime example. Suffice it to say in this day and age with the inflated prices not many people would take on this lifetime undertaking and we see collectors with a much more focused approach.

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12-15-2006, 05:14 PM

Posted By: Sean CoeI've known only a few "great" collectors.The qualities they possesed are probably what it takes to great at anything. What they all had in common was a passion and joy when it came to this hobby and a willingness to reach out to anyone who felt the same way. They had amazing collections which they shared with me as well as the stories behind each piece but they were equally interested in helping me with my collecting. Yes, they were great people as well.

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12-15-2006, 05:20 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Bruce, I think that Jay is trying to point out that many of the posts that you initiate seem to relate to collectors/investors that have seemlessly unlimited amounts of funds to pursue this hobby. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that there are a lot of collectors that only dream about having the resources that others have, yet their passion to collect is no less than those that are blessed with a lot of hobby funding. Those less fortunate collectors (myself included) like to think that we are great collectors because our passion for this hobby is immense. We love the history of the game and these little pieces of card board are the ties that bind us to the history. Whether the cards are beaters or absolute specimens they are what they are. The bottom line is that people may not understand your basic posts. I do believe that it bothers some people because what little they do have is made to seem even more insignificant and their stature in the hobby minimally exceptional.

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12-15-2006, 05:28 PM

Posted By: Max WederJeff Nothing to do with the thread, but whenever someone says "There is no "I" in team", the response invariably is "yes, but there is an "M E" Max

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12-15-2006, 05:36 PM

Posted By: DDWhat is America's Toughest Want List anyway? I want a T-206 Wagner, a 1932 US Caramel Lindstrom, an N173 Bid McPhee (no one has one, but I believe it is sitting in someone's attic), and a Gypsy Queen set in PSA 10 only. Can I now claim the title? In all seriousness, when you refer to people with a moniker, and use the royal "we" out of context, I don't think you can ever be considered great, and your judgment of greatness in others is also suspect.

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12-15-2006, 05:37 PM

Posted By: ty_cobbHaving seen Max's collection, I'll nominate him. Passion for collecting is the most important thing. Happy Holidays Max!

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12-15-2006, 06:38 PM

Posted By: Chris CountsWhat makes a great collector? It depends on who you ask. I believe I was at my collecting best when I put all my cards in team order with rubber bands, had posters of Bob Gibson, Pete Rose, Brooks Robinson and Don Drysdale thumbtacked to the walls of my room, and obsessively tried to figure out when and where the next series of 132 new cards would show up ... I get the sense there is a real populist sentiment on this board. Bruce's post on the great collectors, however sincere, is percieved by many as elitist. Yet these aren't exactly a bunch of bumpkins taking offense, but hardcore collectors seeking vintage material and often willing to pay big time for it ... So what's the lesson here? For me, it's never forgetting why I started collecting cards in the first place. It's about the thrill of getting something new and unexpected. I remember pealing open my first-ever pack of cards and seeing Willie Davis staring back at me. He seemed larger than life, like an action hero. Yet he was a ballplayer, and as a big league ballplayer, he could do things — like run and hit and throw — that blew my nine-year-old mind. From this moment on, I was a collector ... So what makes a great collector? For me a great collector still experiences the same excitement and joy from his (or her) cards decades after pealing open that first magical pack. And that same collector is willing and able to pass on some of that excitement and joy on to other collectors ... By the way, I just put all my cards back in team order ... I'm still using rubber bands, but I also use top holders now!

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12-15-2006, 08:01 PM

Posted By: Mark"his $1500 lifetime expenditure on cards would be considered Bill Gates-like" And this folks, is why we have abortions.

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12-15-2006, 09:29 PM

Posted By: JayLeon--Sorry, I just got back from a holiday party. Can someone have a great collection and not be a great collector? Barry certainly pointed out one example where this could happen but, assuming that the collection was built by them from scratch, I would answer probably not. The reason I feel this way is that a great collection does not mean the most valuable collection. Building a collection like that requires more than just money. It requires creativity and knowledge. With that in mind I would say that if one has built a great collection then they are a great collector.

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12-15-2006, 10:06 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBruce, you are the stupidest, supposedly smart person I've ever run across. Where in the world did you come up with that diatribe? I didn't mention a single thing that you mentioned in that post. I have no problem with with people having money and all the other things you claim that I am against. What I am against is pompous, arrogant, I'm better than everyone else people like yourself. Take a cue from people like Hal, JC and the myriad other wealthy people on this board that know how to act with some humility and decency towards others, regardless of what you might think their social status is. You don't have a chance of rating as one of the great collectors because you have no passion for hobby. You have a passion for money and status. Hell, I may not like Jim Crandall much, but at least I can tell he has a real passion for the hobby, unlike you. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-15-2006, 10:31 PM

Posted By: Jerry Hrechka Why is this so important to eveyone? My collection of card is the greatest. And so is eveyone else's.

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12-15-2006, 10:56 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Once again Mr. Behrens chooses to create his own set of facts. Whilst he may find our comments "pompous, elitist" etc..he has no knowledge and/or understanding of our passion for and dedication to the hobby. Our first acquisition was in 1975. At that time, we made a concerted effort to meet and interview of all the top collectors in the US and the UK. We spent countless hours at their homes, and prepared detailed questionnaires to garner an understanding of the history of the hobby, the companies that issued the cards, and the early interaction between collectors. We neatly documented all of our findings and have to this day more than 500 letters between legendary collectors about the history of the hobby. We also tracked down the founders of Deloi\ng Gum, Goudey Gum and played several rounds of golf with then CEO of Topps . The purpose of this exercise was to gain a perspective on the history of the hobby. Finally, we visited well-known dealers who were nearing retirement like Goodwin Goldfaden, Tom Collier etc to gain additional insight. We were interviewed on a Walter Cronkite newscast and published a cadre of articles. At a time when we had a limited income, we made a concerted decision to focus on acquiring the rarest cards we could afford in the best possible condition. Thirty years later, we continue our academic pursuit. Whilst we choose to be private with regard to our efforts, we are certainly not shy about expressing our opinions on a plethora of hobby issues. Nor are we hesitant to combat those who attack us. It is particularly interesting that the "Gopher with the Behren Mind "is so familiar with both our collection and our finances. What might his source be? Clearly he was banned from the Network 54 Board for good reason. A lifetime ban would, in our opinion, be a cause for celebration Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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12-15-2006, 11:01 PM

Posted By: barry arnolda great collector of vintage baseball cards (IMHO)... has considerable knowledge of the cards--- brought about by the dedicated research of colleagues focused on increasing knowledge regarding the cards,resulting in positive contributions to the field; prizes his/her cards as treasures to behold and share, as appropriate; recognizes and respects the community of collectors as (1) holders of a great wealth of knowledge,(2) fellow laborers in the pursuit of new insights in the field ,and (3)those privileged with the task of elucidating the rich traditions which provide the context for any new insights. The great collector recognizes the import and fluidity of the Roman phrase 'primus inter pares'--first among equals, i.e. who is 'first' changes according to who may be best informed in particular areas along the way. The great collector eagerly steps back,making way, most supportively, for whomever has the next positive contribution. all the best, Barry

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12-15-2006, 11:39 PM

Posted By: RC McKenzieIn 1976 I was in the 3rd grade.. We were supposed to bring in something for show and tell and I brought in a poster board with 1976 topps cards scotch-taped to it. I had a Pete Rose and Tony Perez all-star taped on there. I spoke in front of the class while they dozed off and got a B. After class, 'Todd' came up to me with a concerned look on his face. He said, "You know you just ruined those cards!". I shrugged and told him that they weren't really worth anything anyway other than the stories about baseball. He has a show in town on the radio now called "Ask Dr. Todd".

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12-16-2006, 03:30 AM

Posted By: jay behrensYou know as little about me as you claim I know about you. Your post just proves that on the surface, your claim a passion for the hobby, but it still comes across as an exercise to drop names and try to make yourself look important and impress others. You are neither. You are a spoiled rich kid desperately seeking the approval of others and belittling those that you feel are beneath you, which is essentially everyone. How did you put it? Everyone on Net54 is a bunch of pedestrian collectors, I believe is your exact words. I've met many of the collectors mentioned in this thread and you would be served well to learn the humility that almost all those collectors have, as you lack one single drop of it. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-16-2006, 04:14 AM

Posted By: MarkHey Sir Brucey, "Gopher with the Behren Mind" Could you enlighten us as to who would this gopher be? Mark

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12-16-2006, 04:29 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Mr. Behrens Our income is self generated. The fact that we were intelligent enough to leverage the connections we made at Ivy League colleges and continue to grow our business around said connections is a tribute to creativity and 100 hour work weeks...not being a spoiled rich kid When it comes to seeking the approval of others, as you and anyone who can read can see.." frankly we don't give a damm." Would be happy to debate you on any issue which demonstrates both the history of the hobby and/or the history of early baseball Will concede to you any issue which addresses the ability to acqure bent cards, cards with stains and cards with creases. Clearly you own that market.

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12-16-2006, 04:35 AM

Posted By: DaveI haven't got involved at all in this thread..but that last statement was one in a million....that fact that you are now throwing around your "Ivy League" school background and 100 hour workweeks in order to obtain high dollar cards is supposed to impress who? Mr. Behrens? I'm gonna assume for the most part your doing nothing more but alienating yourself from even more board members here. By the way...I'll take my state university degree and forty hour work weeks along with time with my family and "bent" cards all day long. Edited to say....from Bruce's last post, it is damn, not dam...(Ivy League school?)

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12-16-2006, 06:39 AM

Posted By: ErlandStevensBruce In your extensive discussions and interviews with past great collectors and heads of gum and card companies, what kind of attitude did they show you? I would guess that they did not interact with you in the same manner that you interact with the people on this board. There is one thing that I do like about your posts - the way your text wraps early on the screen. Is there some special setting that you use, or do you just place break tags throughout your posts? Erland

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12-16-2006, 06:52 AM

Posted By: Jason Lbroken glass. that's about it. this Board at times, I think, resembles a Kindergarten playground. Be able to laugh at yourself, gentlemen, and I think you will find more friends... Jason L America's Easiest Wantlist

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12-16-2006, 06:59 AM

Posted By: PC"We" sounds like one of those kids who lost all his cards flipping in the school yard many years ago.

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12-16-2006, 07:12 AM

Posted By: willMaybe we can get PSA to grade all of us. Give us ID cards, which would allow us only attend specific shows or participate in auctions, based on our grade. Will

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12-16-2006, 07:13 AM

Posted By: Jeff DrumYawn...........................................

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12-16-2006, 07:24 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinIs not money -- although that helps. What really makes a great collector is a passion for what he/she does. If a collector wants to be the leading John Olerud collector in the world (and there really is such a devoted collector), then that person is a great collector. The world of modern cards is so complex (trust me on this) that understanding what makes a great modern collector is much different than a great vintage collector. When I managed a store -- I had a lady who would come in each week and buy 2 packs of 1988 Topps cards so she could build a set with her limited income. You know, in her way -- she was a great collector too, because she had immense pride when she finished her set and brought it into the store so we could congratulate her. In vintage -- yes, of course, the better condition you collect in, the better your return will be -- but please don't knock the collector who just wants type cards and are happy with them in any condition. Many of those collectors produce the research that makes it easier to collect the higher end material. Bruce, there is no doubt that you are passionate about the high end material you collect and thus you are a great collector as well. From everything I've seen Jim Crandall post on this board and on the PSA board he is definately proud of what he owns and hosts hobby parties and is passionate about his collecting. His selection to the PSA Hall of Fame was well earned. Am I a great collector, NO -- but I have collected something far more precious to me over the years in the hobby -- which are friendships, relationships and knowledge. I've been very fortunate that I've been placed in a position to help the hobby over the years and hopefully I've done some good over the years. Is it too much for everyone to step back -- and appreciate that greatness comes in many forms. Rich

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12-16-2006, 07:32 AM

Posted By: mikeI think the "great collector" can be a person who either by oneself or causes through others to assemble a great collection. A person with tremendous knowledge is an expert to be consulted, but may not be necessarily a collector. On the other hand, a "great collection?" I prefer to think of breadth and/or depth. A deep collection narrowly focused can be great. A lack of focus or a broad focus (type-card collecting?) can yield a great collection. Sometimes I wonder whether the great collector assembling the great collection is happy doing so. When does the quest cease to be fun and turn to addiction?

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12-16-2006, 07:39 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThat was well articulated, Rich. Greatness isn't just money, codition, knowledge, integrity, helpfulness and mentoring, nor vastness of the collection. It can be a bit of all of those things. Kinda like a great baseball player could be a pitcher, or an infielder, or an outfielder...

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12-16-2006, 07:43 AM

Posted By: JayBTW, I just wanted to mention that I think Frank is a great collector. He has a passion for what he collects and an incredible amount of knowledge about the faces and events behind the cards.

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12-16-2006, 08:01 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittI see here. Probably even our own schizophrenic little lord Fauntleroy. I, like an earlier poster, don't see eye to eye much with Jay, but he's spot on in this argument. Theres tons of people here with more money than I and less money. It ain't about the money.....in the end, you can't take it with you anyway.....we're just the current caregivers of these little pictures of men (that one's for HRBaker....)

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12-16-2006, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThere are many guys on this board with considerable wealth and outstanding educational credentials. Almost to a man, they comport themselves with dignity and humility, never looking down on others who happen to have less money but treating them as equals. It is too bad there seems to be a notable exception, because I am sure he (they?) has a lot of knowledge and experience to offer, but its value gets lost in the rhetoric and invective. By the way, as a point of information, the founder of the Goudey Gum Company was born in the 1860s so if he was contacted in the 1970s it must have been via seance. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> EDITED TO ADD LINK TO GOUDEY INFORMATION <a href="http://www.goudey.org/Goudey/Gum/index.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.goudey.org/Goudey/Gum/index.shtml</a>

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12-16-2006, 08:05 AM

Posted By: AnonymousRich - Very well said!!

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12-16-2006, 08:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI have not read other answers here but I believe there are 3 aspects to it. 1)A great collector should have a great collection 2)A great collector should have a passion for what he collects 3)A great collector should be willing to share it with others Jim

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12-16-2006, 08:53 AM

Posted By: gregI quite enjoyed Rich's reply (as well as many of the others). I think he hit the nail on the head quite eloquently. Great Collecting is all about the passion you have for your hobby, no matter how large or how small your collection is, or how much it is valued. Equally important to the "stuff" we gather (it is, after all, just "stuff" -you aren't taking it with you, no matter how self important it may seem to you) are the great friends you make along the way and all of the stories you can share. I also enjoyed reading Bruce's comments. They're always quite entertaining, to say the least. I have to be honest, they certainly make me laugh and, for that, I thank you Bruce. You are certainly a character. Just goes to show you that education and money can't buy you everything. Greg

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12-16-2006, 09:09 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI think a great collector is someone whose sheer will to find and attain the things they would love to own - is greater than the melancholy of being unable to find, or successfully purchase (read outsniped <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) those pieces. To keep going, that to me is what makes a truly great collector of anything - even if the material itself is considered banal or crap by others. daniel

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12-16-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThank you, Jay, for your kind words; and you're an exemplary collector, yourself. E, Daniel's point is valid. It isn't an issue of what is collected, or how that material is viewed by others. At one time I collected "Inspected By" slips. Those little bits of paper that are packaged with products, or in the pockets of apparel. I had hundreds of them. As I think about it, I recall that #14 was a pretty good inspector. Anyway, I could look at a slip and generally tell you the country of origin, and have a good idea of the product. Nowdays I pitch the slips, but once in a while I hold one for a moment, just above the trashcan, and think of the old days. Maybe for a while there, I was a great collector of "Inspected By" slips. And some kid who has every Ken Griffey Jr. card, knows their numbers by heart, knows approximate print runs, back errors and all, well he'd be a great collector of KG Jr cards, even though that genre doesn't appeal to me. So it seems to me that someone with only 8s and above could be a great collector, if he has the passion, knowledge, and a mentoring spirit; and a fellow who collects only beater E cards could be great, too, with those additional qualities. It isn't about quantity or quality of the cards... (although whoever up there wisely opined that Mr. Mint isn't a great collector would be correct, 'cause he doesn't collect).

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12-16-2006, 09:33 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldHey Pete, Thanks for that Goudey link. Paper drives and paper shortage I knew a bit about. I knew that hit card manufacturing, and that some ball cards out there were lost to paper drives. But the rationing of sugar was something that I'd not thought of in context with gum manufacturing. Being well aware of how rationing would affect a household, I'd not considered how it would affect the ability to manufacture bubble gum. Thanks for that link!!! Frank.

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12-16-2006, 03:23 PM

Posted By: BobI agree with a post way, way up there, too weary to search: you can have a brilliant collection and be a total ass and you do not qualify as a "great collector" in my book. There are collectors who have stupendous collections who are great collectors and some with dynamite collections who are total jerks and people I wouldn't want to waste one single minute of time with. A hobbyist with a great collection who will treat you without arrogance or elitist snobbery is a great collector. A guy with a beautiful collection of cards but the personality of Mike Tyson on crack is someone who will never be a great collector in my book, no matter what his cards look like. I would also interject that a card which has a crease is not a pariah. If so called "great collectors" think so, they have no conception of either whats make a "great collector" or lack a firm grasp of reality. Try completing a set of truly rare cards without creases and then come back and tell me how you would never collect one with a crease.

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12-17-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: Peter ThomasI think that there needs to be some area or areas of focus. An individual set, a team, a relative, a player, lefties ect. That said I don't see any correlation with the quality of the cards making something that otherwise would not be a collection a collection. A box of PSA 8's and 9's is not a collection. It may contain individual cards that we might covet, but it it not a collection. It is closer to a form of currency than a collection and as such has some vulnerbilities - remember tulip bulbs. That said I do like an 8 or 9 when I can get one and it fits my collection. Generally within a set group I like to have the set at about the same grade level. Although I have many cards I only have 4 complete sets. T204 Ramly which ranges from 5 to 8 with (1) 9. It took completing 4 sets and some trading with Scott B to get my set to this level and I would never get into something like that again. E93's Is now an Ex set with (1) 4 and (1) 6. At one time I had a compete set with cards that ranged from 9 to 3. Jim B (who already had the nicest set around contacted me and with worked out a trade of my high grade cards for his corresponding cards and some money, I filled in a few 3's and 4's with 5's and am very happy with the set as I think is Jim with his, also made a friend along the way. E103's I accquired about 70 raw cards over 10 years and put together the best set that I could which ranges from 2 to 5 it is a vge set with a Wagner 5. About a year ago after trying to upgrade with 2 for 1 trades had no sucess, I offered the dup cards cards to the board and sold them all. I think Alan got some upgrades and Brian almost completed his set. If I ran into a Tenny I would get it for him. 49 Leaf's - First cards I collected as a 7 year old kid still have about 60 of the cards that I got as a kid. Competed set as unfinished childhood task and as a child it was one hell of a task. Ask Ted. Now I am still working on Ramly set, but would not pull a $6,000 trigger to upgrade a 7 to an 8 in last Mastro auction. I still have 12 5's to upgrade but 6 of the cards do not have any graded higher so I will not get much further. Looking for E103 upgrades, but only got 1 in the last year. Have 1 E93 to upgrade to a 5 from a 4, but am waiting to discuss crossing over this "floating" set to SGC before buying more cards. This is what I think collecting is, if I was hung up on 8's I could not collect a Ramly set and would have 20 8's and 1 9. I would not be able to have any E103's. I probably could not complete an E93 set even if I had unlimited funds. I could complete a 49 Leaf set if I was willing to sell my home. Now I am messing with PCL, because it is someting that I can mess with. What will come of it? I don't know - have just started the journey.

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12-17-2006, 09:01 PM

Posted By: JayAs a junior in high school I am able to collect decent crease free T206s that I am happy with. To be a great collector you have to be happy with what you have purchased. If you buy cards to try to impress other people then you are in the wrong hobby. While a larger wallet would allow me to buy T206s that are PSA 8 instead of PSA 3 or 4 I still have a passion and desire to attain as much knowledge about T206s and as many cards as I can afford on my budget. Am I able to buy multiple lots in a Mastro or high end auctions, no but I am happy with whatever I can find at a good price at shows or online. My best baseball coach once said that you should strive to be a student of the game. The best collector would be a "student of collecting," a person who learns and is willing to share his knowledge with others. This is just my two sense, because this whole debate is pointless because to each person his collection might be the greatest, but might mean nothing to someone else.

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12-17-2006, 09:32 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldYoung Jay there has the makings of a great collector. Stay the course, keep picking up a card or two, when you start chasing girls don't completely abandon your cards, don't let Mom pitch them when you go to college.... If you're about 13 years of age, if you have 20 T206s now, if you pick up another 25 each year here on out, it will take you another 20 years to make it to 520 in T206, a real nice place to be. You'd be 33. And you'll be 33 then if you don't collect another card ever. I suspect most everyone here would have liked to have had 520 T206s at age 33. I'm sitting here thinking I wish I'd drank half as much beer, and spent half of the savings on cards... Thanks for posting, Jay.

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12-17-2006, 10:28 PM

Posted By: ShanonI am quickly learning about the wide variety of collectors and personalities on this board. I think anyone who takes HEART in thier cards and is an honest person to deal with is what makes a great collector. I am as proud of my T-206 PSA 1 Cobb and my PSA 3 Red Heart Musial as some people are of their PSA 8's and 9's. A couple of weeks ago my daughters 5th grade class did a school project on New York City. One of the projects was about baseball in the big apple, so I took in some of my Mantle and Brooklyn Dodger cards. Those kids loved them and so did a few Dads that had never seen an authentic 58' Mantle or 33' Gehrig before. That day was the reason I love to collect, and also made me realize how much I miss dealing and talking to real people at shows vs. winning auctions on ebay. So be proud of what you have, be respectful of others collections and put some heart into what you are buying, selling, and trading.