Reaction to New Poll

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Mein Gott!!!!! I'm on the wrong board. Close to 40% are PSA 8/SGC 88 collectors. Maybe it's a little too early and when some of the "working class" get home tonight they can right the ship. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Edited to say from when I originally posted this the numbers are starting to look a little more reasonable. Just a little. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Makes me think that the poll is being "Freeped" by the PSA crowd.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I might need to check into this. I don't think there is anyway this poll is indicative of the boards feelings on the subject so far. There are ways to manipulate the poll if someone wanted too. I am not saying that has happened but my guess is about 1-2% of the board members AND lurkers collect in the 8 and above category. We'll see how it goes. Maybe there's hanging chads? Maybe we'll have to have a committee to decide if the poll is tainted?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Are PSA-8 voters aware that this is a poll for vintage cards only, and not post war? Because if you collect caramel cards in PSA-8 or better, you probably have a really small (and very valuable) collection!

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Well I'm one of the few PSA 1 and 2 collectors I guess...

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>hmmm, i am surprised too...thought there were only a few of us...<br /><br />anyway, for the purposes of helping Leon do some detective work, i am one of the "PSA 8 & higher" people...(T206). although, as i have stated before, i do collect rare variations and rare backs, which are low-mid grade...but my focus is 8's & higher for T206.<br /><br /><br />MVS<br />NYC

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Is anyone out there paying hired goons to stuff the ballot box?

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />There are alot of us here from Chicago. <br /><br />Vote early and often . . . <br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hey in Texas you can still vote when you're dead.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think we need to get Jeb Bush to recount the votes! (uh-oh, here we go...)

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Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>I "prefer" to collect in Psa 8, but can only afford Psa 4-5. maybe it would be better to ask... in general, what grade do you normally collect?

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Those evil high grade registry-heads -- they screw-up everything!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Seems like the kind of poll done to embarass high grade collectors--i.e. real collectors collect low grade--but instead it is having the opposite effect.<br /><br />The backbone of the hobby speaks!!!

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Barry brought up a good point, It isn't clear whether we are talking about pre-war only or whether it is all cards (remember this board is focused on pre-WWII). I don't collect pre-war in 8 or above, but if I am buying a Rickey Henderson rookie I probably would. Just an idea, but if 35% of this board really does collect solely PSA 8 or above vintage cards, I will be the first to admit I underestimated the volume of people that did so.<br />-Rhett<br /><br />Note: at time I am writing this PSA 8+ is 40/113 responses to poll

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if at the end of the poll the PSA-8's are the winner, I will be the first to apologize and say you are right!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I wouldn't be so fast to apologize Barry. Online polls are easy to manipulate. And this poll is poorly worded as well.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Ha Ha--no way do I expect Net54 to show the majority collect psa 8 and better--it is surprising. And I only told my psa/sgc/gai buddies to vote once--no ballot box stuffing.<br />May be the wording--wouldn't almost everyone "prefer" to collect psa 8 and better cards if money was no object?<br /><br /><br />Jim<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just how would you manipulate a poll like this? Are there strongmen at the voting booths threatening to break people's kneecaps if they don't vote PSA-8?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, you told people who don't post to Net54 to vote in this poll?<br /><br />That's pretty close to the definition of "Freeping" a poll.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I would prefer to complete my E107 set in PSA-9 or better, and collect my Four Base Hits HOFers in gem mint 10 (I would throw back all the 9's). But I think the poll should reflect how people typically collect. Everyone would like all of their cards to be gem mint if possible.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I think thats what they call it at the Democratic Underground and the DailyKos.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />Exactly my point--the question asks what would you prefer to collect--you would prefer to collect 9s and 10s--so would I--<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't care where the word got it's start, if you are telling your friends who don't post to Net54 to vote in this poll then you are manipulating the poll.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>The poll was a little vague for my collectiong so I picked the low grade catagory. I collect anything I can afford, which usually limits me to PSA 1-4's. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>Griffins</b><p>I collect some sets that I really like in high grade, a bunch of sets in mid grade, some raw, and am currently avidly pursuing a set in any way, shape or form I can find, as long as it's full size. But I don't see a choice "all of the above and none of the above, depending"

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>I for one think that we all know how the majority of this community prefers to collect. I think the only way to show it publicly is to start a thread with the same pole and see who is posting. But really, it doesn't matter if you like 8's or 1's it just matters that you like what you collect.<br /><br />Jim<br />I do have to say, to call one group of collectors the "backbone of the hobby" I have found a little insulating after the 10th time I read it, from which ever side it is and whom ever is saying (including me). I think you are saying it just to get a raise out of people and stir things up. Nothing wrong with that ounce in a while (for me at least) but to keep saying it in jest dose make what you are trying to represent (high grade collectors) look a little short sided. I hope this is in sarcastic fun and not the way high grade collectors feel about the other groups in this hobby?<br /><br />I chose:<br />8) grade and/or slabbed doesn't matter if I am filling a hole or like the card<br /><br />"Edit for grammer."

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I'm with Griff.<br /><br />I've got two prewar sets that I collect in the highest grade I can find (1938 Goudey and 1928 W502). I've got one prewar set that I deliberately built in the lowest grade possible because I feel that's the way that they're meant to be (1943 MP & Co.). I've got one prewar set that I'm trying to collect in SGC 50 and lower, provided the fronts are well-centered and colorful (T205). I collect one type of card (H. Johnson Confectioners) in whatever condition I can get 'em, and I keep them raw. And I collect HOFers in the highest grade feasible for the issue and my budget - so I might have an SGC 40 E card, an SGC 84 Goudey, an SGC 88 1960s Topps.<br /><br />No real category for me in the poll.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I dont know if anyone is really sad enough to do this, but if you want to you can vote multiple times on these polls relatively easily. From a technological standpoint, its not hard...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Trevor,<br /><br />Just trying to be funny.<br /><br />Whats funnier is that people are interpreting these polls with some seriousness--<br /><br />Excuse me--I gotta go vote 5 more times for the psa 8s and higher.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>So I assume this means that anyone answering the poll that he/she collects only cards SGC 88 and above does not collect:<br />1911 Zeenuts, 1910 Obak Series of 150, D311s, E98s, E97 black and white proofs, E94s, E103s, E107s, in short any set I am currently working on! <br />Maybe Leon should have mentioned pre-war does not mean pre-Iraq.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Leon- Nice job.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Are these results indicative of exit polls? Are some people voting multiple times? Do we need a hearing?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I just took a glance at the results and at this moment 47 people have voted for PSA 8 or better, and clearly the poll is not done. What I find interesting is that in the daily course of this board, maybe there are 3 or 4 high grade collectors who I recognize as regular posters. So who are all these people voting, and where did they come from?

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Posted By: <b>Joe Tocco</b><p>Perhaps the early results of this poll show that there are many lurkers and semi-lurkers who collect high grade cards, but do not post because they see how other high-grade collectors are treated here? Just a thought...

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />That's what I thought. I just want to let you know that us lower end heels and toes of the hobby are a little touchy when it comes to our cards and dry humor. It's hard to see the smirk through the keyboard. I think the pole was trying to show a real result of how this community feels about vintage baseball cards. I can see how you would take a "little" offense in this pole. As it does show how N54 feels. I am sure you knew as Leon did when he started it the outcome of this pole. So you decided to jab away and make the pole point less. Just come over to the Force and admit that we are all backbones and bury this stupid my group is more important than yours thing it's getting old. I know you love cards just like the next guy here. Who cares about who's prom king?<br /><br />Just my 52¢ (I getting up there now)<br />Trevor <br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>And why do the caramel cards in SGC 50 and 60 bring such a premium if none of these guys will lower themselves to bid on them since they are below 88?????

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I collect T206, M116, 1933 Goudey, 1934 Goudey, 1934-36 Diamond Stars,36 S&S, 1938 Goudey, 1939, 40 and 41 Play Ball all in psa 8 or better so one can collect pre-war in a fair number of sets and focus on high grade.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Whaddaya know!!!! Someone hit the nail right on the head. You have to have thick skin if you collect high grade cards on this board.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I asked for help in wording the poll. I sort of took for granted (and maybe it was a mistake) that the boards first sentence:<br /><br />"This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily Pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics."<br /><br /><br />would have told people what we are talking about. <br /><br /><br /><br />Trevor- I am with you on Jim making jokes. Enough is enough....<br />best regards

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Look closely at the poll question:<br /><br /><font color="red" size="3"><b>What grade/condition of cards do you prefer to collect?</b></font><br /><br />I'd <font color="red" size="3"><b>prefer</b></font> to collect nothing but 8's and 9's but I can't. I'd <font color="red" size="3"><b>prefer</b></font> to though...<br /><br />As indicated in an earlier post that would limit most collectors to not collecting a lot of different cards/sets.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Guys,<br /> I think the poll looks pretty accurate, about 25% of the board are PSA 8 collectors, and the other 75% collect lesser graded or raw cards in the best conditon they can find or afford.<br /> Be well Brian<br /><br />PS I have plenty(100+)of PSA/SGC 8'S And 9's, but the vast majority of my collection is ungraded.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- is it worth restarting the poll with a clearer topic sentence? Fred's point is correct- everyone would like a gem mint Wagner but that is not what you are asking. Also, are all voters aware that Topps and Bowman don't apply here. And I am the first to say I have no problem with the idea that there may be more high grade vintage collectors than we imagined.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>New poll -<br /><br />Should we draw and quarter the creator of this newly posted poll?<br /><br />Shoule we blame Brian?<br /><br />Should we blame Leon?<br /><br />Should we blame ourselves?<br /><br />Should we have emphasized what it is that we collect instead of what we PREFER to collect?<br /><br />Do we have a do over on the poll or call a Mulligan here?<br /><br />We can't draw and quarter Leon or Brian because nobobdy else would be dumb enough to moderate this motley crew of posters...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />If there were 2 people who collected psa 8 and better cards in the survey--a lot of people would be yukking it up at my expense and probably a lot worse than that. I have taken a lot of undeserved crap for trying to fight card alteration and saying what I think. Certainly a lot worse than the backbone of the hobby comment. Yet noone is telling them to back off????<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Jim- Fair enough, I was just pointing out that many sets just simply don't have any 88s or better in existence, at least not yet. I'm sure to you the challenge of finding an 88 or better in the Goudey series is akin to my finding a decent looking 1911 Zeenut with rounded corners but nice eye appeal. Both searches are tough.<br />As far as thick skin goes, I have had to deal with a couple of guys on the board, lurkers or otherwise, who feel the need to sneak around whenever I post an honest admission, whether it be on the soaking question or trying to buy a card early on ebay at a price set by the seller on a counter-offer, trying to cause trouble, so I know the feeling too. The flip side is that there are a huge number of solid, great guys (and gals JMK) on this board who are very personable and the kind of people I have been very glad to meet in person and are just as nice in person as they seem in cyberspace.<br />Bob

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good point Jim. If the poll showed two PSA 8 collectors you would have had to endure merciless attacks from this group of yokels. However, I still wonder if perhaps some voters misunderstood the question.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I agree. Lets keep doing this poll until we get the message that the vocal consensus wants. People want to trash psa 8s as largely being altered cards and trash those who defend them.<br /><br />So lets give the people what they want as the ChiLites would say. Maybe we should just take PSA 8 out as a category since the real idea here is to try to marginalize the high grade collector.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I have tremendous respect for you and what you are collecting--just not what I choose to collect--maybe when I turn 40 I will shift my focus to tose difficult pre-war sets where 8s just do not exist.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>After looking at some comments I believe the wording of the permise for the poll is not proper. I think it would be better stated if we took out the "prefer" verbiage. Almost everyone prefers pristine but many find it ridiculous on many fronts.... The categories would be the same but the premise would be:<br /><br />What grade/condition of cards do you collect?<br /><br /><br />The only problem is that if we start it over there will be cries of impropriety and no doubt we/I will hear...."oh, you didn't like the results so you started a new one"...but that is not the reason...I think the wording is ambiguous....which is not good for a poll..That is the reason...thoughts?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Finally, the PSA 8s pull into the lead with 74 votes--at last a poll that I like the results of.<br /><br />Whoops--gotta go and vote for it a few more times before its taken down because people didn't like the results.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Is there some way to set this up so that you can only log one vote per IP address?

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I think any reasonable person would interpret "prefer" as the manner in which they presently collect. It's a stretch to think that someone would vote PSA 8/SGC 88 when they are lower grade collectors just because they might "prefer" higher graded cards.<br /><br />With that said, if you do revise the poll may I please have option 8 changed from "grade" to "raw". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />PLUS: The title is "Focus on Collecting" not what would I like to collect.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all you can only, or should only, be able to vote once from each IP address.<br /><br />Jim- If there ever was anyone banned because I thought they were just a total ass you would be first on the list....Grow up....and you haven't been 40 for longer than I can remember...or if you are 40 you really need to change your lifestyle...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I agree Steve--we should keep it as it is.<br /><br />Are we at 100 for PSA 8s yet?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />It is very easy to vote multiple times from the same IP address.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Come on Leon.<br /><br />PSA 8 collector put back in his place.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>It would make my collection a lot easier to work.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>At 4:19 there were 47 votes for PSA 8. An hour and a quarter later there are 93. That's roughly one new vote for PSA 8 every minute and a half. Does that make any sense?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Makes perfect sense barry - someone is creating new accounts, and deleting the cookies from their temporary internet files, and voting again, and again, and again.<br /><br />Its easy to do - I tested it a couple times myself (note my "new" login name) and it renders the results of the poll completely useless...

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>you are right on. This poll is fatally flawed and contaminated. Close it up.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>We will see how many emails I get at home this evening and then this poll will probably be taken down. My guess is I will have less than 5. I was hoping to get an accurate view of what the board collects but it looks as though some folks want their opinion to count more than others. Gee, I wonder who that is?

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Is it so hard to behave like adults?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>Adam,<br /><br />Youre just now figuring this out? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I voted # 8<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />I don't mean to muck things up any, but what is the point of a poll if everone claims to know the end results already? Pretty much everyone here would agree that the majority of folks on this board collect less than PSA8's (collect, not prefer) and most people would estimate that its probably a 90%-10% majority, so why have a poll on this topic in the first place?<br /><br />I'd rather see a poll on something where the answer isn't known already, say "If you were selling $20k of various graded mid-grade cards, which Auction house would you choose" or "which night is the best night for selling cards on Ebay".

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>This poll doesn't work. <br /><br />A proper poll would be something along the lines of...<br /><br />How would you spend $10,000 if you were given $10,000 today to spend on cards?<br /><br />1) T206 low grade set<br />2) three PSA8 T206 commons<br />3) eight low grade e107 cards<br />4) 1952 Mantle in PSA5 form<br />5) One hundred poor condition Old Judge cards<br />6) 1987 Topps set in PSA10 form<br />7) One quarter of a T206 Honus Wagner<br /><br />etc.<br /><br />I also think that it's amusing (as well) that so many PSA8'ers out there voted in that short time frame and that it's easy to pile on the votes of one side, so really, what is the sense of any poll really? I mean, I voted four times!<br /><br />The true measure of this forum (and the collecting population) is in the words of the contributors. <br /><br />My two cents...<br /><br />DJ<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>interesting poll idea...definitely more clear...but...if you can find me a t206 honus for 40K...sign me up for a few.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>OK...so some say what is the use of a poll anyway? Good question. A poll, that is not tainted, puts what we "think" in black and white. No conjecture. The problem with the current poll is that it has obviously been manipulated/tainted to render it worthless...I also have a stong suspicion the grading company poll was manipulated in the same way. I still like polls as I do believe they give a more accurate picture in black and white. Here is the solution. First of all I am going to take this poll down this evening. (Brian- please do so at your earliest convenience)....IF we have another poll like this I will make it a rotating one in an individual thread....so the babies can only vote once. I still would like this poll done in some shape or form...so when the correct wording gets put together I will start a thread with the poll. I can see IP's that way and there will be far less room for the manipulation. Sorry for the issues... I would guess there are more high grade collectors than I originally thought (but it's a guess)...maybe 5%-7%....best regards<br /><br />edited to not insinuate

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Good call Leon. I just looked at the poll about 10 minutes ago for the first time, and was shocked by the results. It's not a matter of taking it down because someone doesn't like the results. And it's not a matter of knowing ahead of time what the answer is. But it is a matter of knowing ahead of time what the answer isn't, and the current results are simply not reality. We all know that.<br /><br />And I also don't think it's a matter of misreads on the "prefer" language, or scope being prewar. Anyone voting in this poll is either a board member or lurker, and both of those groups of people know full well what the intent of the poll is based on the content of recent threads. <br /><br />Not valid? Not innocent mistakes? Manipulation. Buh-bye. Take it down. I just wish I had whatever kick-a$$ little life it must be to have time to create new id's or gather friends to vote or whatever it took to get this outcome.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Okay, all kidding aside because I am serious about my cards, I confess to.<br /><br />1)Being 53--just kidding about 40.I think I look pretty close to 40. If my daughter wants something, she will say I look 40.<br /><br />2)I only voted once--I did vote for the psa 8 option though. I have no idea how to vote more often. Even if I did, I would not stoop to gaming the poll.<br /><br />Cheers to all.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>An est.100 of the 115 people mistook the word "prefer to" as "wish you could".<br /><br />They thought it was a wishing well. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Fred Y</b><p><br />As a new Board member but a long-time reader I took that 1st sentence literally as written--emphasis on the word PREFER--and the only thing that fit for me of all choices was obvious--#1.<br /><br />I would have PREFERRED to answer--Both Graded & Raw--Both High Grade & Low Grade, whatever appeals to me & my pocketbook at the time I purchase!!!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>maybe the poll can be taken at the dinner? <br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Who nees a poll when Leon seems to know all the answers anyway? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Seriously, whatever results that even a fair poll shows, does it really matter to anyone? Are you going to feel better if you are a PSA 8 collector that others are too? Is it so bad to a SGC 50 collector that some other people collect PSA 8 cards? It's all meaningless trivia. But it was fun reading these threads...gave me a few good chuckles.

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Yeah, what King said . . . whatever, much ado about little. What would Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr say about this?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Maybe we need an accounting firm to audit the results, like they do the Oscars.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>The poll seems to lack relativity. In many ways I believe myself to be a high grade collector. This is one of the top eight highest graded E107 Planks in America today.<br /><br />SHOW ME YOUR 8s!!!!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/7571/agfplanklj4.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />Edited obnoxiously large scan.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>There actually is a E107 Plank in a PSA 8.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>I think part of the poll voting is related to the number voters thinking in terms of post-war cards. How many lurkers voted that are predominatly post-war collectors? It should be what you actually buy and it should be in a pre-war sense only.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>maybe the poll should read....in what grade are most of your pre war baseball cards <br />nm/mint<br />vg/ex<br />poor/good<br /><br />this keeps it simple and elimates the slab element because you can collect high grade(or any) w/o the slab<br />