Doug Allen Did the Right Thing

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I bought this Zeenut from Mastro in the October auction. It was in the PSA holder shown below. I wanted it in an SGC holder so I cracked it out and sent it off. SGC gave me a call and stated that it had color added and did I still want it slabbed. I got it slabbed but was not happy to find out about the altering.<br /><br />I called Mastro stating that "I want a solution" never being any more specific than that in a discussion of "a fix" for buying an altered card. <br /><br />I stated my position to Mastro Auctions: Buying a Zeenut that has been identified as trimmed is not uncommon (and certainly it was disclosed), in my view, since the coupons are cut off in some fashion on the majority of the Zeenuts. I further stated that buying a card with undisclosed adding of color is a completely different alteration and in my view decreases the cards value far more than the disclosed trim. I further stated I bought the card from Mastro and I wanted a solution from Mastro.<br /><br />In essence their response was simple: <br /><br />1) Who's to say SGC got it right versus PSA (I told him "I think third party graders may miss flaws but I trust that third party graders do not determine that they see flaws which don't exist).<br /><br />2) We're not going to take the card back (I had never recommended this as the "solution" to start with).<br /><br />In the end I stated that I paid for the card plus 17.5% implying that a partial refund would be acceptable. I was told "no" and my final statement was "I thought there would be a better solution than being told 'to go take a hike.'"<br /><br />We wished each other good day and that was that.<br /><br />I would be curious as to what others think about my beliefs as to the decrease in value (over and above the trim) due to the adding of color. TO ME, it is a complete different level of alteration than the trimming. I will add that I had knowledge (from a board member) that the card had not been trimmed other than the bottom where the coupon formerly existed prior to buying the card from Mastro.<br /><br />Shown below, is the card, one scan is in the sleeve, circled by SGC, as to where the color was added.<br /><br /><img src="http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6406/dimagggiopsahp0.jpg"> <img src="http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5609/dimaggiosleevepj7.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1122/dimagggiosgcyu2.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>I agree that it is a different - and less desirable - type of alteration and that you should be upset. However, I think your ire is misdirected. Once you spun the Wheel of Crack-n-Crossover, you absolved Mastro of most responsibility. Seems like you should be taking the issue up with the third-party graders. Which, at least in the case of PSA, is likely to be about as satisfying as beating your head against a brick wall.<br><br><a href="http://imageevent.com/yawie99" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://imageevent.com/yawie99</a>

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>hmmm, maybe call psa and see if they can explain anything about the card...maybe they knew about the ink but since it was getting an "authentic" anyway, they could only put 1 qualifier on it "trimmed" as opposed to "trimmed" and "ink added" or "mark"...just a thought<br /><br />actually by sgc stating "ink added" may imply that it isnt "trimmed" making it a different graded card altogether...<br><br>when in doubt, keep it!

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The coloring should have been disclosed by Mastro. It is possible that Mastro missed it initially, but they should have compensated you for the difference in value.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But what would be the difference in value? How do you calculate it? And they are free to say once you crack it out of a holder, you own it. Tough call.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I agree with you completely that the card is now a whole different proposition in terms of its future value. The coupon being clipped off is a totally accepted version of the card as this happened more often than not and collectors know the history, and indeed having the card with coupon is almost a variation that has more of a multiplyer effect - with the sans coupon a standard version.<br />The only problem you have was accepting SGC to slab it once you knew about the color added.......obviously you should have kept it in the psa slab and sent it into SGC that way (mighty ballsy of you to crack it out I must say!) and then you had two avenues for mediation, mastro and psa. Now it is hard to argue its provenance and being free of tampering from sources other than Mastro or PSA....<br />I would guess value at 50%-70% as an ink added, as opposed to minus coupon.<br /><br />Definitely a beee-utch.<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I assume that Mastro missed the doctoring but, regardless, your gripe was with PSA since they graded the card. It would have been nice if Mastro noticed it but they didn't. They have no responsibility in the matter. Obviously, you didn't notice it either since you decided to crack the card out and resubmit it to SGC. Once you did that PSA no longer had any responsibility. If you had submitted the card in its PSA holder to SGC for a crossover then SGC could have seen the alteration before removing it from its holder and told you to send it back to PSA for a regrade. Unfortunately, you are the one who screwed up and must now suffer the consequences.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>post the auction itself?<br />It can't be all that many, and for Mastro to not make good with at least an offer to return half the BP makes for crappy customer service.<br />How many such posts about instances like this can they afford before they could clearly count the cost financially in their auction takings?<br />Dumb Dumb Dumb.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Lee</b><p>I like PSA, but good luck getting any information or resolution from them. Any time I call them with a question, they just read me the flip and don't talk anymore until I say something. Then they say, we have no more information. As many have said before, PSA = not really customer oriented. They just don't care about the smaller $ collectors.<br /><br />Not to bash PSA's grading or anything, just their horrible circus they call customer service in getting anything resolved.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I'm not going to tell you what I think about graded cards and card grading... nor point out how other folks think I'm wrong, and how this situation clearly shows I'm not... but I should.<br /><br />What I will say, is that I don't see any reason why you lose recourse against the auction house if you crack open the PSA slab. And I don't see where you have any recourse against PSA in the first place. I think they'd only be answerable to whomever sent Joe in to be graded. <br /><br />The auction house should buy the card back from you. That is where your recourse is, if you pursue it. Maybe you should contact them one more time, and give them another chance to do the right thing.<br /><br />Evidently they won't buy it back. Don't buy from them again. Ever. I won't. Get others to follow along. That is the only way to deal with such conduct. I haven't bought from Sports Cards Plus for several years... I might calm down about them one day... There are dozens of good folks out there who are good sellers. A bunch of them participate in this board from time to time.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>PSA is the 3rd party grader and should be held accountable. Mastro is a venue...just as ebay is. I doubt PSA will do anything now that the card is not in their holder. If it's any solace, I bought my N300 Duffy from Jay M. in this thread. I sent it in to SGC and it came back recolored. I got the card, used an art eraser, and now it resides in a 30 holder. Maybe you can send it back to PSA and they will miss it again? (that's sort of a joke)....Sorry for the issue Cat....either way it sucks...but I really don't think it's Mastro's issue.....again, this is one opinion....best regards and good luck with it...I would be a little sick over it..

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Does PSA note "color added" on its Authentic flips? I wasn't aware. I'm surprised Mastro won't take the card back. They should stand behind their cards they sell, period. PSA didn't sell you the card, Mastro did. Is Mastro claiming that no color was added?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>So Jeff- let's say you sell a card in an SGC80 holder to someone for 5k....immediately they crack the card out, send it to PSA, and they deem it trimmed. You give a full refund right away, huh? Personally, I tell the person that cracked it how it should have been sent in, in the holder...so next time they will know. That's the recourse, imo....again, I like to think I am a fair person. That too is debatable I guess....<br /><br />edited to ask...Why would Mastro say anything? They didn't grade it...

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, fair point. No doubt the better course would have been to have the card sent in in the holder. Not sure what the point was in cracking it out as SGC would only give it an authentic grade anyway, right, due to the coupon being removed? But I think that an ebay seller or an individual is different from Mastro which is a huge company. They should take a small hit here just for the PR purposes -- god knows they do every other damn thing in the book for PR purposes. I mean they can re-sell the damn card and probably lose a few hundred bucks at most - or give Cat back a few hundred bucks. What is the big deal? It's not like they're going to raise the BP to 25% over this card.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree with that compromise.....except I think the Mastro guys run a great auction and I enjoy them immensely. I am not sure you feel the same way. best regards

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Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>I think Frank is spot on. PSA and Mastro (along with others) should get together and hold a conference on all things not to do to improve business and goodwill in the community. Do not bid or pay their outrageous "buyers premium" (I am still trying to grasp that concept). These people will not change until it hits their pocketbooks, period. There are plenty of collector friendly dealers around to waste time with this.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, if you knew how much in bids I have going right now you'd know that I love Mastro's auctions as well. I just don't appreciate the BS, etc. that they throw our way.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Something I'd like to bring up is SGCs method of determining color was added to a card. The reason I bring this up is because I've had a couple of cards deemed "color added". I know for sure that none was added. One of the cards (T200) was pasted into a book and had been there until I removed it from it's resting place of over 90 years. I submitted the card to SGC and they rejected it for "added color". Bottom line is that SGC could have errored in their judgement. They aren't perfect but they are probably the more reliable alternative to all other graders. <br /><br />I'm guessing that they have some way of inspecting cards that they use and if the SGC graders see a certain attribute they deem the card had color added. I can't fault them for this because that is their assessment and they probably catch more cards with color added than they make judgement errors. <br /><br />It would be nice to know how SGC determines that there was color added. Again, I'm not faulting them, I'm only bringing up a point that SGC does error in judgement every once in a while. I suppose we should all be happy that they reject a card rather than let it pass through if they have any doubt.<br /><br />As far as breaking the card out I wouldn't have done that for a cross over. We all know people that have sent in cards that have been rejected for trimming in the past. In many cases they get a numerical grade for the card and they then can make a killing on the card (if it's a desireable card). I'm not saying that's the case here but it has happened in the past. We all know that people break them cards out of cases and resubmit them for higher grades and receive them. Again, I'm not saying that's the case here but some people may suspect that. In my opinion any card that has had the "coupon" or what ever cut off deserves to be either marked as trimmed or AUTH (based on being altered). What about people that cut the Goodwin and Company ads off the bottom of OJs. Should those cards receive a numerical grade? I think not, they were altered. <br /><br />If people have grievances regarding graded cards then they need to take up the fight/debate with the company that graded it. In this case, maybe PSA was right and SGC was in error. Maybe Mastro Auctions didn't catch the "color added" to the card because in their opinion (and believe me, I'd trust them more than some kid that has no clue what this stuff is) there was no color added or detected. <br /><br />Sorry about the long winded post... <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Doug Allen just called and his message was simple. After telling him who I had talked to at Mastro he stated his represented likely didn't understand the issue and Doug believed the re-coloring of the black box is a more serious alteration than the coupon trim. He said... I can solve this by offering you Solution A or Solution B. I thanked him. I told him that I appreciated his reponse and I picked Solution A.<br /><br />He offered that I could contact him directly if a similar issue arose and I told him that I would likely take him up on it.<br /><br />Thanks Doug!!!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Good for Doug and good for Mastro. It was the right call.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>but don't you love the power of this board.......<br />we really could do and affect more if the will was there, pity there are equal parts apathy, cynasism and enthusiasm battling for supremacy amongst the many voices.<br /><br />daniel

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Like achieve world peace? Create the AIDS vaccine? Get the BP down to 17.5%?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Sounds like thread title extortion to me.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>What was solution A and solution B?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Many of us know exactly what you mean.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>How inconsiderate, If I was to recolor that area, I would have corrected the mispelling <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />Glad for your happy ending. It's a beauty.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />With all the clever and witty people on this forum, I forget what the topic of this thread is (was).<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Who are you?<br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br />How did you know that I was a professor at the age of 28. At any rate, I enjoy this forum immensely. It's fun and entertaining.<br /><br />Now I'm semi-retired and a serious pre-war collector.<br /><br />Peter