If You Can Sell It Here, You Can Sell It Anywhere [Archive]

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12-05-2006, 04:34 AM

Posted By: bruce DorskindNow that so many Board Members have made the long journey home from rural America, i.e. Reading, it is time that we planned for a major annual show in Manhattan. New York is the center of the financial world; the center of the television sports world and the most visited city in America. A sophisticated and elegantly planned event which is promoted properly will draw thousands of interested baseball fans, collectors, potential collectors and investors. In fact, next year the Museum of the City of New York will feature a 6 month exhibit entitled "The Glory Days of Baseball in New York 1947-1957" The exhibit, which will open in the late spring, will be promoted nationally and will attract thousands of visitors. A perfect marketing tie in would be with the first annual Manhattan show. We have spoken at some length recently with several Hedge Fund friends. Together, we may start a collectibles Hedge Fund and allocate $25 million to sports collectibles. A New York show would be an ideal opportunity for those dealers and collectors with rare and expensive items to sell them to a new audience that can easily afford to acquire the very best that the hobby has to offer, Such a show could also include a special limited live auction where the minimum reserve on every item could be $1000 . Perhaps there can be a charity aspect to the auction as well and we create a special auction where a number of companies participate. More on this later. In order to succeed the show will have to be held in apporpriate venue, like the Park Avenue Armory. Furthermore, it is our belief that such an event should focus on rare, high end materials. Certainly such a show should not be loaded down with $2.00 cards and the latest baby toys. With Wall Street's assistnace, we could also have a Thursday night preview with tickets at $250 each. Said funds would go a major charity. At such an event we would be able to attract athletes and sports personalities. It would also be great if we could ask Keith Oberman and other news, sports and entertainment personalities could help with the planning. Would welcome your comments. Bruce America's Toughest Want List

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12-05-2006, 04:46 AM

Posted By: Greg"Would welcome your comments." Although I'm very new to the hobby, and while I see nothing wrong with a show in Manhattan, the manner in which this is being approached involving hedge funds, wall street, and the like, seems deplorable to me. That is just my opinion and therefore my "comment", for whatever it's worth. Keep these items in the hands of the collectors, who love the hobby for the hobby and the history of the game not some impartial "investor". Off to work, have a good day. Greg

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12-05-2006, 04:49 AM

Posted By: leonWith all due respect we think your plan will further alienate the masses. Most collectors just want to relax and have fun. We are so sick of all the talk about "money". We are not naive and have more money into our cards, relative to other resources than we should, but continued talks of the money aspect just aren't that fun....at least not to us (whoever "we" are?). Our vote counts as 1 (I guess). We hope you have a happy holidays.....

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12-05-2006, 04:57 AM

Posted By: JoannBruce, I've been kind of watching as you've mentioned a Manhattan (or with Barry's input, a Brooklyn) show in the past few weeks. I think I would go to a toothpick show if it were in Manhattan, so the comments really had my interest. Then I scanned your post and saw something about an auction with minimum reserve of $1000. And not littering the show with $2 cards and baby toys. Not that I want or need a lot of $2 cards and baby toys, but if the intent of that comment was to keep the lower-end riffraff collectors out, then I guess I'm out. Manhattan or Brooklyn - good. Black-tie affair - bad. Just my opinion. But then I'm not the one that's actually doing anything to get it togehter - you are. So my vote should count a little less, I suppose. Joann

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12-05-2006, 05:08 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind The concept that we developed would enable the Hobby to showcase its very best items and make it possible to hold a show at a venue which is beautiful and distinguished and one which would attract an entire new crowd of potential collectors and investors. Can you imagine having a 17th century furniture show or an impressionist art show at a venue like Willow Grove or asking collectors to drive 30 miles on a two lane highway? The hobby should welcome new collectors and investors... My sense, Leon i,s that you would like to limit access to the best material. We will increase demand for the best items and uncover many, many additional rare items if we expand the scope of the hobby While auction sales of a few baseball houses are impressive, they are dwarfed by coin sales. Remember 150 million Americans collect coins...probably less than 5% of that number collect baseball cards. That spells opportunity!! Why not expand the market.? It's not about money...it's about creating new opportunities and looking at things in different ways. Let's raise the bar and have at least one event a year which showcases the very best (and most expensive material). Bruce

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12-05-2006, 05:22 AM

Posted By: Kevin CummingsLiving in northern New Jersey and having just made the trip to the show in Mayberry, ummmmm....Reading, I heartily support the concept of a show in New York City. I think it is laughable that there isn't already a show there on a regular basis. But all the grandeur you are trying to attach to your proposal certainly might make people with a shoestring collecting budget feel a bit alienated. The hobby is all about the cards.

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12-05-2006, 05:22 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittWhile on the surface a comparison between coins and cards might seem appropriate, it really isn't. Coins as a whole have been minted for millenia; cards (as we know them) since 1880's or so. Widely distributed coins have been minted in the US since the late 1700's with literally (as Carl Sagan would say....) billions and billions made. They've also been collected far longer and far broader than cards. We understand the comparison, but we don't really think we agree with it. As for a show in Manhattan, we think it's a wonderful idea but we also believe that INCLUDING more than EXCLUDING makes more sense. We guess we live in rural america (Louisville, KY) and might find a 2 lane highway to New York City somehow for a show as we've been to New York City many times. We welcome any large show and we try to attend when we have the ability to go away from our family and our other varied responsibilities.... We wish you the best of luck in your endeavour......

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12-05-2006, 05:24 AM

Posted By: Josh Adams"Why not expand the market.? It's not about money...it's about creating new opportunities and looking at things in different ways. Let's raise the bar and have at least one event a year which showcases the very best (and most expensive material)." So which one is it? Is it "not about money" or about the "most expensive material?" Kind of confused. As far as having a show with a $250 preview night, that seems like it wouldn't draw that many people that attend card shows, and if you are having a show in Manhattan, why not try to have the show at a large venue, and with attendance to rival the National? On another note, more people collect the $2.00 card than the very best expensive highest grade whatnot. Good idea though, having a show in Manhattan. I would have to seriously consider making the trip. Josh Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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12-05-2006, 05:26 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- if you are planning to bring hedge fund managers into this it is everything about money. I wish you would take a chill pill, relax, and enjoy the hobby. This money and power thing causes more problems on the board and just isn't worth it. You are just creating animosity between the haves and have nots, and these kind of threads always end in rancor.

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12-05-2006, 05:35 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldI'm all for a Manhattan show, right there in the center of arogance and obnoxiousness. Exactly the types of folks you describe could go, lord only knows if they'd keep their word on anything. And as for the hedge fund, who would they sell to one day? Seems to me a good way to get some nice items out of the hands of collectors, and into the hands of some entity that could one day only sell to another such group, or maybe to a museum. Museums are nice, IF they're going to display an item. Too many items end up in storage, never seen by the public. I have a few items that might qualify for hedge fund purchase, but I'll never sell them to such a group directly, my items would be on the "world's toughest to buy list" as far as you and your group would be concerned. Your plan would be an excellent opportunity for some collectors to sell some high end items to the folks you describe, and the fund you propose. It would be good for those sellers. So you go for it. I'll remain here in the rural, distant, poor, rancorous, unenlightened hills of Kentucky, a place where someone's word is still to be trusted. Frank.

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12-05-2006, 05:37 AM

Posted By: cmokingBruce, let me know which hedge funds you are talking to please. Because I'd like to advise my hedge fund investing friends (in case they have money with those hedge funds) to get their money the heck out of those hedge funds.

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12-05-2006, 05:39 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliWould this be black tie? I hate the idea of getting mustard on my tux. -Al

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12-05-2006, 05:40 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittdon't have anyone drinking 'haterade' around here.......... Al, get your tux scotchgarded or simonized..........at least the mustard would be grey poupon dijon.....kinda like the commercials....

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12-05-2006, 05:46 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonI agree with most of the posts here about "hedge funds", "Wall Street", etc. However, I think the idea of a Manhattan show is a great idea. I used to set up at the National Pastime/Armenian Church show, in Manhattan, and it was a VERY successful show. It attracted dealers from all over the country and was always well attended. I don't set up at shows any longer (love the Internet and the mail order business) but I would certainly strongly consider setting up at a show in Manhattan (considering that is where I live). --- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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12-05-2006, 05:48 AM

Posted By: Judson HamlinWhat Barry said. Y'know, when the revolution comes, at least I won't be first on their list

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12-05-2006, 05:51 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorAs much as I would love to see a National take place in Manhattan, I totally disagree with the approach of the initial poster on this Board. However, as a person who lives near and works in Manhattan every day, I take extreme exception to New York city being called the "center of arogance and obnoxiousness" and not being a place "where someone's word is still trustworthy." There are arrogant, obnoxious and untrustworthy people everywhere -- even in Kentucky. If you would like to make a point about the unwelcome stereotypical attitude of a poster, your argument would be more persuasive if you would keep your own stereotyping out of the equation.

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12-05-2006, 05:59 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldTo you sir, and the other truthful folks of Manhattan, I do appologize. And I appreciate and am grateful for you pointing out my overzealous comments to Mr. Dorskind's proposals. I fear that my interatction with him has unduly tainted my perception of the citizenry of Manhattan. Thank you for helping me narrow my focus. And again, I beg your forgiveness. I'm unaware of you having been arrogant, obnoxious, or untruthful. F W II

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12-05-2006, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Robert SThere used to be some great shows here in New York in the 1980s -- the Armenian Church show comes to immediate mind. A few years ago, the folks who run the White Plains show threw a large show here in the city and it did OK -- with a mix of high and low end vintage and modern material. In fact, there's been talk among some of the White Plains and Ft. Washington dealers who used to do the 1980s NYC shows about having another show here in the city. One dealer in particular, who many of you know (who used to do shows here in the 1980s and still hits Ft. Washington, the Shriner's show and White Plains), has been exploring organizing such an event. Of course, to make a show work he's talking about doing it the way big shows have always done it -- many dealers selling 1950s-current stuff, as many Vintage (pre-war) dealers as possible, and top flight autograph guests who would draw well (think Willie Mays caliber not Bob Watson and Ed Kranepool who just did the White Plains show two weeks ago). He never mentioned hedge funds, and I, for one, am glad. By the way, if you've ever attended the book fairs in NYC you know the prices at the Park Avenue Armory are plain stupid when compared with the exact same items being sold at the Lexington Avenue Armory and the Greenwich Village book shows. I would rather be downtown or in midtown and buy two cards or books for the same price as one on Park Ave. The obstacles to a NY show are well-known, however: 1) Dealers from out of town don't want to pay NYC hotel prices. 2) Unionized venues (extra charges to load and unload) 3) Parking issues (especially for dealers) 4) Higher rent for the venue itself means higher booth charges 5) Local advertising costs (think Daily News and NY Post) Of course, The National could more easily hit major cities (NYC, Boston, San Francisco, etc.), but those guys are REALLY cheap when it comes to costs...

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12-05-2006, 06:08 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittthat's very 'judicial' of you...... Even though I'm also a Kentuckian....I have spent MUCH time in Manhattan and find it one of my favorite places away from Kentucky, who MUCH of the known world has some ill-conceived thoughts about as well. I've found many of the stereotypes of New Yorkas to be incorrect and overall it's a great place. Other than getting sideswiped by a NY taxi who later drove off and getting a parking ticket in Greenwich Village, Manhattan is one of my favorite places. My 14 year old wants to be a lawyer and live in Manhattan (something you don't hear of too much) and I'm hoping he makes it so I have a place to visit in retirement!

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12-05-2006, 06:10 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaLiving in Manhattan, the couple of miles I would have to travel to this show would be too far. Hedge funds my ---.

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12-05-2006, 06:22 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethWill people have to bring proof of their net worth to be admitted? What is the minimum requirement?

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12-05-2006, 06:39 AM

Posted By: JayBruce--IMHO, you have a knack for bringing out almost unanimous opposition to even good ideas. The thought of a high end auction is nothing new--Siegels has had their rarities auction in stamps for years. It is not a hedge fund or Wall Street auction; it is an auction of the best lots that they accumulate over the year and then sell on one date. It is very popular and very well attended and generates alot of publicity. Similar auctions have happened in the past--remember the Copeland and the Halper auctions both took place in N Y City. Proposing a N Y City show is a good idea. Proposing a N Y City show that is by definition exclusionary is not. My suggestion to you--lose the "we" unless you are heading to the mens room and then use several.

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12-05-2006, 06:45 AM

Posted By: dstudebaI have no problem with hedge funds, or Bruce's original idea. I however do agree with King and wouldn't invest in it. Personally I don't think the market is liquid or large enough for a hedge fund of any meaningful size. That said, I could always be wrong and would enjoy the show or at least the catalog. Edited to add : I think Bruce trying to promote a part of the hobby is good. Though it might not be a part that I am involved in, I am not going to rip him because of it, or because I only dress up for weddings and funerals.

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12-05-2006, 06:47 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorThanks Frank and Tom. I just feel that there is plenty wrong with Bruce's initial post that can be shown without resorting to the same kind of stereotypical rhetoric that he resorted to.

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12-05-2006, 07:46 AM

Posted By: ChadI would very much like a Manhattan show. I hate leaving the island. A couple of quick points: 1. I'm was born in Tennessee, raised in California and went to school in Mississippi and Florida and now live in NYC. I've found there's a pretty equal ratio of a-holes and good people in all places. Even Texas where my brother lived for many years. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (kidding!) 2. I have a dreary job at a brokerage firm--back office work, yay!--but in my work I interact with many rich people and I ahve to say, rich people seemed more interested in art and antiques and fast cars. Now, obviously, there's a lot of wealth on this board, but you guys seem more the exception that the rule. A card that sells for 100k in our hobby is a big deal, but pieces of art go for 100 million dollars. All in all, we're pretty low rent and thank god for that or I would be buying reprints and 87 Topps. I can understand why people like Mr. Dorskind want to expand the number of wealthy folks who collect baseball cards--increased demand etc etc--but I just don't see it happening. I have to admit I'm prejudiced against the extremely wealthy jumping in, though, so I could be wrong. My problem with it would be that the cards would become simple commodities devoid of their historical context or nostalgia. They would become items of interest to these new wealthy collectors SOLELY because of the their value. This rubs me the wrong way. Again, I'm not attacking wealthy collectors in general--there are lot of great, great collectors are wealthy and that's a good thing, and who's to define who's wealthy anyway. I may not be expressing myself well here so I'll apologize in advance if I haven't. So, to sum up Rich + knowledgeable is good Poor + knowledgeable is good Rich + not knowledgeable + hedge funds is bad Manhattan show is good I'm a Manhatanite and I am good! Peace out, y'all --Chad

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12-05-2006, 07:58 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaIf this chatroom were on usenet Bruce would get an award for best fisherman because he routinely throws out delicious bait that is gobbled up by the masses.

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12-05-2006, 07:59 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskindNYC Responds Our idea was to have a show at a venue that would attract people outside of the hobby-people who love baseball and people who are capable of investing considerable funds in the hobby. As for the Book Fair comment, the Armory show is a very profitable venture for the dealers and attracts a cadre of world class collectors, many of whom don't attend the other shows As for minimum on lots at an auction...the idea was to have an auction, as Jay suggested, of the very best material which would be limited in scope. We are certain that all the Board Members realize that the average lot in the last REA auction exceeded $5000 and the baseball card and memoribillia Mastro lots (don't track balls and bats) also average well in excess of $5000. The $250 a night preview was strickly for charity...and nearly every other collectibles specialty area does this. It amazes me how upset Board Members feel when a whole new set of ideas are presented. While card collecting is a hobby it is also a business, and the number of items that are available, are in part available because they command such high prices. I The hedge funds and private investors will come and you can either deal with the now or wish you had. America's Toughest Want List Bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

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12-05-2006, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffWe think we can almost envision the ad which will run in the Robb Report: <img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/vajra1/DorksinInvestments.jpg"> -Ryan

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12-05-2006, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Josh Adams"It amazes me how upset Board Members feel when a whole new set of ideas are presented. While card collecting is a hobby it is also a business, and the number of items that are available, are in part available because they command such high prices." Bruce, I don't want to speak for everyone, but I don't think it's that board members are upset at new ideas, it's more that your demanor, tone, and overall presentation is a turn off. It has that air to it of snobbery to it, which could upset people. Also, collecting is a business to some, not all. I know several people who just collect to collect. The fact that money is exchanged for our precious pieces of cardboard does not mean that everyone views it as a business. You may, and that's fine, I am not knocking your collecting interests. But you might want to give the whole "we" thing a rest. Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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12-05-2006, 08:15 AM

Posted By: ChadI don't know guys, why would hedge funds want to get involved in cards? The funds our firm works with have portfolios worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Why would they want to deal with cards when the market is volatile and, more importantly, it would be pain in the arse to store them. More importantly, though, could a hedge fund get its hands on enough high end cards to even make it worthwhile? And, if they do manage to gobble up all these cards, who are they going to sell them to since, in the act of gobbling up the cards they are going to drive the market up to a point where the hobby is going to lose a lot of people? Wouldn't it be easier for a hedge fund just to invest in Indian communications companies or Italian Treasury notes or Swedish Kroner or GM something? This is a serious question--some of you guys on the trading or analysis end should feel free to help me out. I, however, would love to get a job "clearing" baseball cards rather than Treasuries or options or foreign equities. Talk about a dream job... --Chad

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12-05-2006, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Anonymouswe agree with Kevins Cummings...but would likely dig up some of the loot in the back yard and head on down to see what you city slickers are made of...Gold or Silver? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> and thanks for the heads up on the Museum exhibit...sounds like it would be worth a trip.

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12-05-2006, 08:33 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittwho are very close to the hedge fund folks and I bet there's not many (more than 1) that would think those in the hedge fund world would jump on high end cards..... Also....I don't have a bone to pick with you Bruce (or those other people you count yourself part of--you know....the WE, OUR, US, etc) but the new ideas are ALWAYS welcome. This board is a hotbed for ideas. It's just the condescending tone that yours are presented with that turns off so many people on this board. Not only the people who have LESS money than you but also the people who have MORE money than you.

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12-05-2006, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Cobby33IMO, the only people who could (a) afford to and/or (b) be interested in, such a show, would be the same people who specialize in high-high-high-end material. Once again, apples & oranges. You are not going to attract mainstream or even high-end collectors with such criteria - "we" are in a whole different league - almost to the point of collecting different things. Personally, I would avoid such an event, as it sounds like it will be full of people like the folks I work with (who have too much money). I spend enough time avoiding them - I certainly wouldn't pay $250 to be with the same kind of people (acknowledging, of course, that there will probably be "some" down-to-earth people there).

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12-05-2006, 08:55 AM

Posted By: David SmithSNOBBERY !!! That is what this sounds like to me. It's not about the cards, it's about who you are, who you know and how to get a black tie event together so you can hob-nob some more. If you think card shows (or the lack there of) are bad in NYC, try coming to Indianapolis. Most of the card shows and shops have stopped and/or gone out of business. The ones that are left mostly have shiny new crap. "Vintage" to the ones that are left are cards from the 1950's. The National only comes to Chicago (a 3 hour drive) or Cleveland (at least a 5 hour drive) every other year. You New Yorkers have shows that are both closer to you and more often, yet you still complain. Also, if you don't feel like driving, you can get on a train and be in Boston, Philadelphia or Washington D.C. within a few hours. An Amtrak train from Indianapolis to Chicago takes MOST of the day to get from one city to the other. Even if I had the money, I would NEVER attend a show in NYC because of the "better than thou" attitude that is being vividly displayed with the original post. David

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12-05-2006, 08:59 AM

Posted By: Brian"We have spoken at some length recently with several Hedge Fund friends." Who is we?

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12-05-2006, 09:09 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellGreat idea Bruce. The idea of having a show in NYC is an excellent one. Since it is in NYC which is more expensive than most areas it should carry prices that are higher than other areas. Every business is segmented. You can have low-end shows, mid-tier shows and high-end shows. If there was a show in NYC major dealers would gladly pay the price of higher lodging, transportation, etc. But it would have to be marketed as an upscale show in order to achieve this. $250 could still be a tad high but I think you would get a good size crowd at $100-$150 if it were marketed correctly. Jim

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12-05-2006, 09:13 AM

Posted By: DRAs long as a show created awareness and was able to generate a substantial charitable donation, the idea does not seem bad at all. I am curious if Bruce could pull off such an undertaking. Imagine viewing so many super high end cards and memorabilia in one place. It would be like the National condensed. I might even be interested in a table and taking a trip to NYC. Hopefully hedge fund, private equity and mutual fund principals / managers / associates show. Even the stock / bond brokers are OK. These guys would feel right at home with all of the opportunistic activities taking place in our 'hobby'. My resume will be ready to distribute too and maybe some early stage investment opportunities and/or red herrings. In all seriousness, I am shocked by the backlash. If you are able to pull this off Bruce, please let me know. This sounds much better then a trip to Cleveland. It is not all about the cards or money to me! Thank you. David

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12-05-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: John SBruce, When card collecting becomes "business" to me it will definitely be time to find a new hobby. While it is impossible to have a $0 collection (unless one has no cards) I try not to focus on the $$. I cannot say that I would welcome a price crash (as many have spent significant money building their collections) but it would certainly be interesting to see many investors dumping their "portfolios" of cards.

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12-05-2006, 09:43 AM

Posted By: MVSNYChmmm, sounds interesting...as a native new yorker, i love the idea of having a big show in my backyard, but not sure about the whole upscale, exclusive idea behind it...and this is coming from someone who collects T206 8's & 9's...how about a good old fashioned baseball card show in manhattan? doesn't need all the bells and whistles, just a cool venue...being a furniture designer, i goto the armory shows, and the pier shows many times a year...the best ones, are the ones where it is just the basics: tables and items (whether it be antique furniture, art or cards, less is more. i used to goto the old show at the church, but i agree a new updated Manhattan show is needed, maybe at the javitz, lower level?

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12-05-2006, 09:47 AM

Posted By: BobWe don't mean to speak for everyone here but we feel that the backbone and heart and soul of the hobby is the collector who is in it for the love of cards, not to embellish his stock portfolio. There are a lot of collectors here whose net worth is sufficient to buy only the best of cards but they never act condescending to those who can't. We don't give a tinker's dam for those who are in the hobby only to impress themselves and others, give me a guy or gal who literally loves cards, the hobby and collecting cards and sharing "war" stories with each other any day to those who are only interested in cards as a means to an end, i.e. financial elitism. Besides, we think that with increased information as to card's worth, collectors who buy Boston Garters Mathewson cards for $1000 from unknowledgeable people and then chortle on video that they turned around and sold it for $67,000, would want to keep the unknowing from learning how much their property is worth. We would like to see a national show in New York though and anything which might benefit charity is admirable, just come down off the old high horse, as folks around here are prone to say. Just our 2 cents worth...

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12-05-2006, 09:55 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI have never seen a person in my life that collected cards that did not love the hobby and love their cards and certainly noone who collects for "financial elitism". The whole notion that affluent people love their cards less than the average Joe is ridiculous. In fact, based on affluent people I know know they love them more. Here Bruce comes on and has a great idea--a high end show in nyc targeted at the affluent collector and the high end dealers that serve them with charities making out well and it turns into another thread about class warfare. Jim

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12-05-2006, 09:59 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Bob With regard to the Boston Garter Matthewson.we asked the seller what he wanted. He said four airline tickets to Europe...in those days the total cost was about $1600. We happily sent him the tickets. $1600 at that time was the most money ever paid for a Boston Garter So try not to twist the facts. FYI, we have collected rare cards in the very best condition for 30 years..it is because we love the hobby and the history of the cards..but there is nothing wrong with earning a profit when one decides to either sell or upgrade his/her collection We are sure you often go from table to table at card shows telling people they are asking too little for their cards. Bruce

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12-05-2006, 10:02 AM

Posted By: JoannI love Manhattan. It's one of my favorite places to visit and if you shop around you can find nice midtown hotels that don't cost an SGC 40 E93 per night to stay there. I would love a show in Manhattan. But if it's for the blue-blood set, maybe I'd go anyway. I'll just grab a 40-oz and nasty hot dog from a street vendor and stand outside on the sidewalk and watch as all 15-18 people show up. So on top of the other comments ... I'm not so sure it wouldn't flop. Vintage cards aren't that broad in the fan base area, and when you subdivide that to include only those with serious money, I think the total audience becomes very small. And as to the "we" thing. I've noticed lately that when Bruce talks about cards, purchasing cards, going to card events, etc, he uses "we". But when he talks about himself, where he's from, things he likes or dislikes or disagrees with, he uses "I". Personally I don't have a problem with that. If he wants to use "we" in a specific context that has meaning to him, and that may involve people I don't know about, then I see that as different than just a general universal use that feels like an affectation. Just my opinion. J

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12-05-2006, 10:07 AM

Posted By: Chad"The whole notion that affluent people love their cards less than the average Joe is ridiculous. In fact, based on affluent people I know know they love them more." Who the hell is saying the affluent can't love their cards? Certainly not the many affluent people who ahve repsonded to this thread. And if you think you have a higher regard for your cards than I do for mine, simply because you paid more for yours, then, geez, I really don't know what to say except that it might be the single most jackass thing I've ever read on this board. Hopefully I'm misunderstanding you. If not, then I think you've really dropped your shorts and I can understand why you think everything is "class warfare". --Chad, already regretting hitting the respond button on this one

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12-05-2006, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Todd Schultzsounds like an interesting idea to me. I probably could not afford to do much more than attend and preview, but it seems worthwhile to me, especially if charity was involved and more of the hobby's gems were up on display, whether or not they were up for auction. I am certain that there is a great deal of simply wonderous material in the hands of collectors who infrequent or even avoid auctions. If by chance they feel more comfortable with an upscale, cosmopolitan setting and would prefer to participate there rather than elsewhere, so be it. If not, then the event will be a bust that's either scrapped or modified. Personally, I have no problem using such an event as an excuse to go to New York.

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12-05-2006, 10:20 AM

Posted By: BobBruce we apologize for stating the purchase price was $1000, when it was actually $1600, our bad and no I don't go from table to table at shows telling sellers their cards are selling for too little because anyone who sets up at a show generally has a pretty good idea of what cards sell for. Jim, the post was not intended as a diatribe about class warfare, sorry if you thought so. I fully understand that some collectors are obsessed with owning the nicest possible cards of each issue and I certainly don't begrudge them their passion. What I do object to is a condescending attitude that those who collect cards which might be low or medium grade somehow fall in to a different "category" of collectors. It is not so much a question of delineating between the "have's" and "have nots" as in just accepting that in our hobby there are those who are extremely passionate about the hobby and their cards but can't afford PSA 9s on prewar cards. I don't gripe about Hal Lewis because he can afford cards in conditions many of us can't, indeed Hal is a hell of a nice guy and has never uttered a comment which I consider to be condescending to those who can't. There are a lot of collectors like that and I know your collection of high grade cards is enviable yet I don't remember any comments you have made which border on condescension. That's all I am trying to say. The backbone of the hobby is made up of the vg collector who loves his/her cards. If that group ever disappeared, the hobby would suffer immensely. It is possible to have a great collection without trumpeting it. Many consider my collection to be very nice but I know there are better and there are collectors who don't even know about this board who have collections that make mine pale in comparison. Still my collection gives me pleasure and I don't have to throw it up in to anyone's face.

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12-05-2006, 10:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBob, If I sounded like that I am sorry--it just seems to me that there are all these posts about people in the hobby just for the investment side of it and these must be the people that are spending this crazy money on high end cards. My point is I know personally many of the people who are spending this money to buy high end vintage cards and they absolutely love the hobby. They are extremely knowledgeable about the cards, the sets and like to buy stuff that is in high end condition and thanks to their hard work and good fortune they can afford it. Everyone collects what they like--I don't think people come onto this board to brag about their collection. I come to increase my knowledge and to discuss serious issues in the hobby. People will misinterpret this but for example I do not agree that the vg collector is the backbone of the hobby. I think this has changed. I think the psa 8 collector who loves his/her cards is now the backbone of the hobby and the hobby would suffer more from losing this group. Jim

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12-05-2006, 10:45 AM

Posted By: RhysBruce I bet you can get the State of Ohio to invest in your hedge funds. They already did this with coins and a bunch of other stuff and from what I have seen in the news I think it worked out really well for them. Rhys

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12-05-2006, 10:49 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- if I had to guess, based on the extremely high cost of PSA-8 cards, I would say perhaps 1% to 2% of the hobby can afford to buy them on a regular basis. How do you consider that the backbone of the hobby? That's like saying the average art collector collects Picassos and DeKoonigs.

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12-05-2006, 10:52 AM

Posted By: BobRhys- Thanks for giving me the smile of the day <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> tbob

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12-05-2006, 10:55 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI actually have no gripe, in fact think it's a terrific idea to create a super high end event for the sports memorabillia/cards crowd. Those who can go and buy will, those who can't - won't. Pretty much the same as goes for me and the Mastro Auctions, or REA, or most Auction Houses for that matter. Just because It's out of my price range, doesn't mean it's not fun to drool and fantasize. I see no-where in your post or description an attempt to belittle anyone else's collecting style, and think frankly you are carrying baggage from other postings you've made where perhaps you have been less delicate - read dopey, in your writings. A $1000 minimum? Who cares? The $500 minimums that other auctions employ does not make them callous, and the items are worth to the collector whatever they are worth...and always way above minimum, and far more than I can afford. My only addition to you plans, would be: As a way to allow more people to afford to attend and at least view the material on offer, I would suggest the pre-auction charity night selling tables of 8 for a $1000, or around $125 a head, instead of a flat $250. I think there would be lots of collectors on this board and in general that might get excited by the idea of a trip to the big Apple and organize amongst themselves to coordinate such a trip. And perhaps not black tie, but trousers and blazer would be sufficient, and evening style dress for the ladies. And say if you could get a 100 or more tables, then that 100K - and I mean ALL of the money - could be given to a great cause (the Ronald McDonald house is currently my heart-strings). Perhaps in conjunction with material gathered for auction, a visit from Cooperstown of some of the most scrupmtious items could be coordinated to be shown at the same premises.... Anyways, regardless, I think it's a fun idea, and certainly shouldn't preclude organizing a 'regular' trade card show more in keeping with average pockets to find it's way to such a terrific city. regards Daniel

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12-05-2006, 10:55 AM

Posted By: Robert SSpeaking as someone who attends ALL the shows in the area -- the Park Ave Book Fair, The Pier Shows, the Lexington Ave Book Fair, The Greenwich Village PS Book Fair, The White Plains Card Shows, the Hofstra Card Shows -- I think most of us would go to any and every baseball card show in the city. There are so few opportunities for baseball collecting-related gatherings, we're all starved for them. However, what I think you're missing is that because the card show attendence base is so small (in general), a NYC show would do well to be more inclusive rather than more exclusive. Meaning: have the high-ticket options, but don't eliminate the mid-priced and low-priced ones. Take the National for instance: you can have high ticket auctions held on-site (as has been done previously) and invitation-only dinner events (see Mastro, for instance) while still serving-up an event that actualy garners more of a mass audience. I think what the people here are trying to tell you (Bruce, any alter-egos, and/or the entire Dorskind Group), is that they will gladly go to any NYC show that is served-up, but that they don't necessarily think it should be exclusive rather than inclusive. For instance, a charity-only preview would be great (many antique shows, in fact, set different prices for different times within the same day/night), as would a big ticket auction. However, so would the ability to walk the floor and buy a card for under $500. Take the Pier Show, for instance, it doesn't exclude small ticket items, but does include big tcket ones and all the high-end trappings. As for your response to the Park Avenue Armory show comment -- even the Dorskind Group would be knowledgeable enough to hop on over to the Lexington Avenue show (which sometimes is held on the same weekend) to purchase its P.G. Wodehouse first editions for half the price. This doesn't mean the Park Avenue show isn't popular, successful, or even worth scouring for that special high-ticket item or even a bargain or two. However, for common items, why would anyone to whom money is any object pay more than is needed? The same can be said for baseball cards. Sure the Boston Garter cards will garner high prices, as they should. But why would anyone on this board pay more for a T206 Rube Marquard just because it is being sold two avenues away from a more reasonably-priced alternative? In sum: set the NY "high roller" show dates, Bruce, and every New Yorker on this board will likely come (maybe we all won't buy, but we probably all will come). Just don't be surprised when the bulk of New York card collectors don't appear... unless you give more of them reasons to show up, as do shows like the Pier Show for antique and collectible collectors.

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12-05-2006, 10:57 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, You are defining hobby as pre-war and even at that I would say that the money spent on prewar 8s and better is dramatically higher than what you suggest. In the 40s,50s and 60s it is the majority of the hobby and the 70s and later it is the hobby. Jim

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12-05-2006, 11:03 AM

Posted By: barrysloateFair point Jim, I was thinking vintage and not about the more modern sets...on a slightly different note, I think that Bruce is talking theoretically here. I don't foresee him organizing such a show himself; I think he suggests that such a show in NYC would be a worthwhile venture. Bruce is busy with his own business affairs and I don't see this idea going beyond the discussion phase. There is an enormous amount of work to do and red tape to overcome to bring such a project to fruition in the city.

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12-05-2006, 11:07 AM

Posted By: Bob CBruce, What you are proposing is introducing an entirely new facet to our hobby. Your concept of forming a hedge fund to “manage” sports collectibles is both non-traditional in its own venue, and viewed as an intrusion by collector’s and hobbyists who enjoy sports collecting for its own rewards. As an investor, I am skeptical. Most of my colleagues and family see the hobby as a child’s errand and a questionable use of my time and energy. Further, since hedge funds engage in opportunistic investing strategies, would this fund “short” the “market” as well? Although the internet, EBay in particular, has leveled the playing field, the hobby is irregular and inefficient for many reasons. I have a lot of other thoughts that I won’t go into here, but serious investor’s will need to be seriously convinced this is real, and you know what I mean. As a collector, I cringe at the thought of launching significant new dollars to pursue scarcer and scarcer supply. I have been chasing four (4) Ramly commons to complete my set for nearly two years now and I don’t even want to talk about graded T3’s. As a collector and hobbyist I abhor your idea and you know what I mean. Manhattan as a scene is red herring, who cares. If you think your average couple at The Four Seasons is going to pay $250 a throw to preview a sports collectibles auction, well I want some of what you have been smoking, just ask my wife. My two cents, no smiley faces.

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12-05-2006, 11:19 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaJim, I respectfully disagree that the PSA8 crowd is the backbone of the hobby. IMO the majority of hobbyists are the collectors who value the card over the number on a slab....and Barry's assessment of 1-2% is right on when considering prewar collectors. A good majority of prewar cards are difficult to come by in any condition that most collectors (99%)will take what they can find regardless of the number on the slab. Bruce may the only prewar collector I know of that will not include a card in his collection if it doesn't meet a specific grade. Of course I don't know anyone around my area that collects cards to put on a registry. I gravitated towards vintage (vintage as far as I'm concerned is anything pre-Topps) cards because of the way the hobby was headed in the late 1980's....people were actually selling blocks of 100 Wally Joyner rookies as an investment <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> And while that idea thankfully went into the toilet it was replaced by the card companies inserting short printed insert cards into packs. I still go to my local card shop to get supplies and talk to the owner who I've been friends with since the mid-80s, but it's really become more of a gambling parlor for adults buying boxes of cards hoping to pull 1/1 cards...you can see them sitting at the table opening the packs, keeping the inserts and just giving the cardshop owner the "regular" cards because they are "worthless". I'm not denigrating anyone because I believe people should be able to spend their own money however they want to, but IMO the PSA8 registry crowd is just like the gambler hoping to pull the 1/1 card...they are aspects of the hobby, but they are by no means the backbone.

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12-05-2006, 11:22 AM

Posted By: MorrieM(.ullins)Jim, You do understand how it sounds when you accuse someone else of making a thread into "class warfare," then follow up with a statement like, "I think the psa 8 collector who loves his/her cards is now the backbone of the hobby," don't you? Take out the "psa 8" from your statement, and nobody disagrees with you. But add it in and you, not Bob, have made it about class differences and relative criticality to the hobby. Maybe "hobby" and "business" are synonymous for you, and that's fine if it's what brings you joy. I can certainly see that on the financial side, the people buying psa 8's are pouring more money into the cards than most of the rest of us -- but on the hobby side, it all falls apart without people who are enthusiastic and passionate about the cards at every level. I have no interest in Bruce's proposal. I fail to see how it makes the hobby better for 95+% of collectors. But, hey -- as long as it doesn't affect access to what I collect, have fun with it. Morrie

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12-05-2006, 11:26 AM

Posted By: BcDBob,that was funny! Leon,your post here is one of the best you have ever written and of course King's public service message to do his social duty to the card collecting World was as usual a bullseye! Do you think people with one man companies here really 1099 anyone for two hours of work so they properly and formally can justify the use of the word "we"? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 11:35 AM

Posted By: BrianWhilst this thread provides enjoyment and auspicious hopes to the future, I remain vexed by the "we" issue.

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12-05-2006, 11:37 AM

Posted By: warshawlawGoing forward with a model for a show that is is snobby, elitist and exclusionary is a lousy idea. The exclusion of people based solely on the amount of money they have will not help boost card collecting. Certainly it will not bring in the kids and sports fans we need to bring into the hobby if it is to survive past the current generation of collectors. My feeling is that it will have the opposite effect. Do you really want the hobby to turn into the art world, where a few people collect and everyone else pretty much says "who cares"? Coin collecting isn't big because it excludes people and talks down to them, it is big because anyone can start collecting coins literally from spare change.

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12-05-2006, 11:38 AM

Posted By: BcD"noone are we" Jim Crandell's hero~ <a href="http://www.peternoone.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.peternoone.com/</a> BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 11:39 AM

Posted By: bruce DorskindA final comment. Any show, regardless of venue, would have to be able to draw a certain number of dealers to be a worthwhile economic investment. In turn, said dealers would like to see a certain number of collectors. The suggestion was the following 1. Charity Dinner-- the attraction would be baseball..,perhaps at the Museum of the City of New York (where six great collections will be featured- this could be a charity event which would benefit cancer or kids from abused families (Joe Torre's charity) and the Museum. $250 is inexpensive for a charity eventin NYC. A number of Board Members raised the black tie question- we did not. 2. Eliminating cabbage patch dolls, lots of common local 90's stuff is a long way from excluding what someone called the backbone of the hobby. Whilst we may collect PSA 7 and PSA 8 where possible, we certainly can't expect to limit tables to dealers who only sell rare E cards in PSA 6, 7 or 8. Even the Reading show had relatively few tables of 1990's and 2000's stuff and almost no toys and dolls- compare that to Westchester, NY for example. 3. Auction- if you want to attract collectors and investors from outside the group of usual suspects, it is imperative that one market very interesting material- in this case- rare cards or items with a special significance to the history of baseball and/or the history of New York would appear to make sense It is amazing that someone reads a thread, then creates his/her own interpretation and everyone responds to comments (i.e. black tie event) that were never made in the original post. By no means do we limit this over reaction to our posts...nearly every thread fosters an over reaction because someone states that the original post contained a certain controversial or politically incorrect thought and then a whole cadre of people react to words that were never written. Thank you for your interest and for listening. America's Toughest Want List (212) 734-7362

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12-05-2006, 11:42 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJust when I didn't think this thread could get any funnier -- the class warfare issues, the big city stereotypes as set forth by the self-proclaimed yokels -- Brian provides that 1099 comment. Priceless.

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12-05-2006, 11:44 AM

Posted By: BcDcabbage patch doll! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> actually Bruce,the reaction is a result of our loathing of you~ <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 11:47 AM

Posted By: DanWell, I see that nothing has changed since I left for Iraq 8 months ago. I returned last month and took some time off before getting back in to my hobbies and "normal" life. I must say that it saddened me to log back in to the N54 forum and discover that as collectors we are still missing the boat. First off folks, this "idea" is an idea that can become a reality with or without your support. As with all collectibles, they ultimately are consumed by the people that have disposable income or at least a good portion of disposable income. Many of you fit in to this criteria as you have previously stated that your money for cards and vintage items came from inheritence or something similar; or you simply make a lot of money as a lawyer, doctor, hedge fund specialist, etc. Folks like myself, I happen to be military, do not make a lot of money. I do ok, so I buy and sell what I can to scrape by to put together my particular items of interest in an attempt to corner my small corner of the market. The folks out there with "the cash" would basically just prefer that the market stays with the "collectors" because what they are doing is slowly buying up the entire vintage mass one piece at a time, one auction win, one Ebay sale, etc. The big players are exactly that and whether or not this New York event occurs, everyone had better wake up and realize that one way or the other, the cards will hit the street one day or another. It may be your prized collection today, however, when you pass that on to your children one day... chances are good that your collection will be sold out from under your best desires and wishes. Secondly, some of you claim to "keep it with the collectors" when in fact I think that it would be accurate to say that you are the ones that have the disposable income and are enjoying some great "buying" years, not necessarily collecting years. Obviously this is not accurate to everyone that says this, but close. The last thing is; an event such as this will only aid in bringing more collectors in to the realm of things as well as push the vintage sports to an even higher level than it currently is. I say collectors with a sense of it actually being investors, because NO ONE pays that kind of money on a small scrap of paper if it weren't going to at least hold it's value or eventually go up in value. So the argument could be made that ALL of you are an investor as much as you are a collector and some of you are certainly only investors, either way, you are some variant of investor. Have a great day, take care... and damn does it feel good to be home!

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12-05-2006, 11:48 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellSorry guys--did not realize you had to be politically correct here. Dan, The hobby is more than pre-war--even if it wasn't the 1-2% that Barry estimates, his estimate is dramatically low when measured in dollars. Well -you can add me to Bruce's list--I have never bought a card in less than psa 8. I know hundreds of collectors who collect high-grade graded sets and put them on the registry--noone collects just to put them on the registry. I think the biggest gamblers are those who buy raw cards. SGC/PSA collectors theoretically have the comfort of the company's assessment behind them. As I have said before, the day will come when virtually all cards of any value will be graded. Morrie, Hobby and business are not synonimous for me--I know of noone who loves the hobby more than I do. I would never buy a low-to-mid grade cards but I see nothing wrong with those who do. Jim

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12-05-2006, 11:50 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind Brian Since you are in the habit of sending e-mails of yourself in gym shorts and clearly have a cadre of other issues, you might be advised to get the facts straight 1. We send 1099's to everyone who works for us 2. We have considerably more full time employees than you suggest 3. As usual, you have no idea what you are speaking about Oh and while we are responding... we wonder how certain Board Members are so astute and/or so well informed as to know how much money another Board Member earns. Do they work for the IRS, Homeland Security or do they have some secret access to all Network 54 tax returns? Rest assured, we are never shy about stating our opinon, and we don't really care about the response from people who change the facts to suit their needs. The Board is a place to learn about baseball cards and share new ideas. Board Members, are in the end, the people, one competes with in auctions. And we, as well, as nearly every other Board Member, will do whatever he or she can to win a card they need. Bruce

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12-05-2006, 11:53 AM

Posted By: BobJim- And of course you do fully recognize that if you buy nothing less than a PSA 8, you will not be able to collect, for instance, the D311 Pacific Coast Biscuit or 1911 Zeenut sets, two of my passions, which are both red hot right now and where there are few if any cards at all in those sets which meet your criteria. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Bob

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12-05-2006, 11:53 AM

Posted By: ChadThis 'we' thing is growing on me. It's like that episode of Seinfeld when Costanza starts referring to himself in the third person. We really like that epsiode. (Yep, we're definitely starting to like it.) --We

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12-05-2006, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensGee Bruce, You love the hobby so much you go to show buy some cards like it was the greatest thing that happened in the hobby in the last month and then you turn around and offer them on the Net 54 BST thread. Boy is the love of the hobby ever flowing from you. Cut the BS and admit what you are a wannabe hobnobber with the higher escelon that does not actually have the means and jsut trying to present yourself as the Donald trump of the card world. At least Jim Manos & Jim Crandall are honest and straight forward about who they are and what they are about. I respect them for that whether I agree with them or not. Move your horse and pony show someplace else, I give out bowlingshoe, have a modest house, make a modest wage, and damn proud of it. Lee

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12-05-2006, 11:57 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBcD, Thanks--I loved Herman's Hermits--I even have their greatest hits DVD and sing along to every song----but alas, he is not my hero. Bruce, I think you have a lot of good points. The charity part alone makes it good--again what is wrong with a show with high entrance fees that has high-end collectibles when the vast majority of shows have low-end fees featuring low-end collectibles. You are serving a distinct market niche--and many of you would be surprised how many from all over the country would come to this sort of event. Jim

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12-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBob, I do realize that and if I ever do finish all the sets I nam trying to collect in psa 8 or better and turn to those, I will have to lower my standards. Jim

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12-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI'm thinking no-one's bowled a 300 at your lanes...<img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> daniel

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12-05-2006, 12:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- please educate me on this. You say you know hundreds of collectors who collect PSA-8 cards. My question is: just how many of these PSA-8 cards are around? I thought people paid such a high premium for them because they are so comparatively rare. If so many people collect them, how rare are they? The numbers just aren't connecting for me.

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12-05-2006, 12:04 PM

Posted By: BcDmy facts are quite clear 1) I offered NO facts on the subject of 1099's and you Brucey I merely made a joke 2) you are a blow hard who spun your wheels pretending to be a player at live auctions only to get blown out and become known as "the underbidder" of the auction houses. 3) you are the only guy on here that googles themselves under the word "we" all day only to scratch the three strands of brittle hair you have left on your Humpty Dumpty dome wondering why nothing comes up. 4) you remind me of Proverbs 10:19. In fact,you define it! Now don't make me call greg and tell him your flapping the layers of blubber under your chin on here again as you know he will call you to the carpet on it! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jim,you are honest! Bruce makes me want to hug you! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThis thread is crying out, I mean crying out for an addition from Jay Behrens. I picture him reading this thread dressed up like Hannibal Lecter, wheeled in front of the computer screen...dying to get his hands out and type a response.

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12-05-2006, 12:07 PM

Posted By: BcDin which Elklods posts 93% of the threads no one gives a hoot about. BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 12:07 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAre we on the verge of spinning out of control yet? Another day on Net54.

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12-05-2006, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittHILARIOUS.........I was talking to Leon about that this morning......it was the 'Jimmy' episode....... 'Jimmy likes Elaine' 'Hands off Jimmy' blah blah blah Then George picked up on it..... 'George likes Kung Pao' PRICELESS........ I thought exactly the same thing when I see the 'WE','US,'OUR' references Monday's really are the best days for posts like these.....thanks to Bruce (and all those encompassing his sphere of influence) for brightening our day.....

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12-05-2006, 12:12 PM

Posted By: leonI don't think this will spin out of control. As we spoke about on the phone this is one thread and everyone is arguing with one person...not everyone with everyone. This is really a very focused thrashing <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>..... BCD- be careful of the personal nature of your comments. thanks ya'll....

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12-05-2006, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanBarry, I think Jim is pretty much right with regard to the cards from the 50s and 60s. If you do an ebay check on PSA graded cards from the 50s you'll find that the most items being offered are in PSA 7 followed closely by PSA 8; PSA 6s, 5s, etc. are scarcer. Also check the PSA pop reports for 1958 as an example: the 8s and 7s are most graded with 6s and lower far behind.

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12-05-2006, 12:15 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaBarry, the real solution to the out of control nature of the board is to divide it up into sections: 1) PSA8 Collector topics only 2) Everything else I wonder which one would get more discussion?....and I wonder how that relates to the "Backbone" of the hobby?

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12-05-2006, 12:17 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthAptly titled "Take Me Out"... <a href="http://www.collectorsquest.com/video/index.php?playvid=12" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.collectorsquest.com/video/index.php?playvid=12</a> You can never watch this enough times. Thanks so much Bruce! I will email you (plural) later on. We have so much catching up to do. Greg

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12-05-2006, 12:21 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJeff- I don't pay attention to the 1950's and 60's market, but I would venture to guess that for every collector who has a 1963 Topps set on the registry, there are ten collectors who don't even know what a registry is. So I am still going to go out on a limb and say PSA-8 cards in the 50's and 60's are not the backbone of that hobby either. They may be expensive and desirable, but not how the majority of collectors put their sets together.

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12-05-2006, 12:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, There are 23,000 sets registered on the PSA Set Registry--several sets have over 100 sets registered. To pick three popular sets 1961 Topps--128,000 cards graded, 54,000 psa 8s 1957 Topps 116,000 cards graded, 35,000 psa 8s. 1952 Topps 89,000 cards graded, 12,000 psa 8s. Why would yopu think I would not know 100s of high-grade collectors given that I am doing so many sets? I say this in a nice way but I think people on this board underestimate just how huge the graded card hobby is. Jim

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12-05-2006, 12:23 PM

Posted By: ChadAssuming it's possible, is it a good thing or a bad thing to bring Wall Street into the hobby. This is really the heart of the Dorskind collective's project. I say it's a bad thing for the reasons I gave earlier. This whole idea of a fancy pants show is to DRAW INVESTORS, which is what the original post states and which is why it would need to be in Manhattan. The show, though, is not the real issue. The real issue is trying to attract investors who are devoid of appreciation of the hobby except for the dollar values they can assign to cards. I call BS on this. I'm sorry if that makes me rabble, but I do. I would love to hear reasonable arguments to the contrary. Again, this is not about PSA 8's, or fancy card shows, or any of this crap. It's about the direction of the hobby. Everything else is tangential to this point, I think. One again, just to be clear Rich collectors are all right. Poor collectors are all right. PSA 8's are all right. GAI P-F's are all right. Unslabbed 1978 Topps are all right, even the ones that are worn down because kids actually played the game with the backs. Faceless hedgefunds with Honus Wagners and Pop Lloyds locked away in a vault is not all right. --Chad or --We, whatever

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12-05-2006, 12:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf your numbers are correct, and I am sure they are, then 50's and 60's cards should not be hard to find in PSA-8.

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12-05-2006, 12:26 PM

Posted By: DJWelcome comments...here we go. I want to know what you (Bruce) hope to achieve with threads like this. It seems like you have a weekly idea on how to revolutionize and improve the hobby, mostly singling out the big dollar collectors. First it was an organization. A big dollar show (Cabbage Patch Dolls not okay, but we'll allow the PSA5E card though, that's okay). A hedge fund? It all ends in a debate (again, the vg collector versus the PSA8 people...the registry people versus those who loves their creases) while the large majority of the board "scoffs" at these suggestions to improve the hobby, the others (a handful of loyal high dollar collectors) agree it's a good idea, but that's about as far as it goes. When it comes down to it, will they (or you or "we" as we are often plural) do any of the work to begin these proposed projects? Will they (those who like the idea) even show up when it comes down to it or have a bunch of better things to do? I also think that, honestly, the concept of a show is moribund. The Cabbage Patch sellers exist because tables need to be sold. How many tables do you think you can sell of only "big dollar sellers" in this ebay and catalog world? Not to mention you have to probably pay celebrities like Keith Olberman, Joe Orlando and Charo to come to the event. Already when we go to shows, all we do is comment on high prices and at Bruce's show, we'll see a PSA8 n28 Mulvey for $4,000 that we will all pass on and it will simply end up in Mastro catalog in the future. This is an "ebay" world. A "high priced catalog world". I have no reason to leave the house. I have to fly to NYC...get a hotel...get a car...pay $250...look like a penguin...(bleep) that. I once did this for a charity event that uncovered some original Joan Miro work, but this...pass. It's Monday Barry, Leon promised us that things would go back to normal. In all honesty, as long as Bruce and Jim C. (no offense to either gentlemen, your views are simply different than 95% of this Board in your way of thinking) post, there will be chaos and friction at the n54, VBC. DJ P.S: I'm going to send in all my "poor" conditioned 1963 Topps cards to PSA so I can get 1/1 PSA1 cards.

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12-05-2006, 12:27 PM

Posted By: BcD"Rest assured, we are never shy about stating our opinon, and we don't really care about the response from people who change the facts to suit their needs" I don't recall ever seeing a post by Derek Irwin? "noone" has posted that in any way are associated with Bruce on this website have they??? So who is it besides Bruce from the Dorskin group that is not shy about stating "their" opinion? BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 12:28 PM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind We have a system set up to block all of your emails Bruce

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12-05-2006, 12:30 PM

Posted By: Chad" Greg- save yourself the time December 4 2006, 3:28 PM We have a system set up to block all of your emails " But this made me alugh out loud. Now my boss wants to know what the hell I'm doing! --Chad

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12-05-2006, 12:30 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDJ- I predicted at 8:00 this morning that the tenor of this thread would degenerate into a battle between the haves and the have nots. If I may pat myself on the back, didn't I call it right? Edited to add that "The Jimmy" episode of Seinfeld is especially funny, with Michael Richards having too much novocaine and Mel Torme making one of his last appearances before he died...but I can't find Michael Richards funny anymore. That said, let's get back to the business of class warfare.

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12-05-2006, 12:30 PM

Posted By: E, Danielbut I didn't notice you making mention in your auctions that you will only sell your high grade Josh Gibsons to collectors made of the right stuff, and sufficient knowledge base to appease you..... Similarly, how in the hell is any of this any different to a Mastro or REA Auction? I've never heard anyone on this board say we should vet buyers of those auctions for their card-collecting credentials. If you ask me, and quite obviously you would not, the greatest amount of classism that goes on on this site is from collectors who proffess to know what a true collector is, or isn't, and are so balls sure of themselves they don't even know how full-of-90' Leaf Sammy Sosa they are. most sincerely Daniel

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12-05-2006, 12:31 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, It is still a substantial challenge and an expensive undertaking to complete sets from the 1950 and 1960 with each and every card is psa 8 or better condition. Jim

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12-05-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthBruce that is bad news. What is the best number to reach you at? Don't force me to get a yahoo account, please.

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12-05-2006, 12:35 PM

Posted By: MarkI have my '81 Donruss packs ready to go..... Where's the show again? Graff Diamonds on 721 Madison Av? Mark

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12-05-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: BrianGeorge is getting angry!

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12-05-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDJ, Nothing wrong with debates--most people can make their points intelligently--some cannot. Since you are so anxious to see my project fail which contrary to your opinion has the support of the majority of the board, we are continuing forward. There is a dinner being set up in NYC with a follow-up conference call with other hobbyists who want top be part of the solution. For those who wish to participate in either one of these, please contact me. Jim

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12-05-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: ChadI'm working under the assumption that an individual collector knows something about and appreciate the 50,000 dollar card he's buying that, say, First Eagle Funds of America or the MIT endowment fund wouldn't. Do high end cards end up in the collections of people/entities that don't care? Absolutely. Should we encourage this? Why would you want to? --Chad edited to add: And who have I ever accused of not being a real collector? Show me a single post I've made where I've implied that. If my being wary of hedge funds jumping into collecting makes me a snob or full of s--t, then so be it. I can offer suggestions of what you're full of if you want.

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12-05-2006, 12:46 PM

Posted By: BcD"complaint filed" remember! please bring the foul cookies and milk back in from your porch as the FBI never showed up to claim them! Or was it the justice department? or maybe Monster.com excecutives! :0 BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 12:46 PM

Posted By: E, Danielthat if any such investment group or hedge fund were to take on such an endeavour, they would hire someone with significant knowledge in the hobby to be their chief advisor (hopefully not Bruce, that would just garner too much board energy/animosity). And secondly, that such purchasing would undoubtedly be restricted to items that 99.99995 % of us collectors would never dream of selling our homes to buy. If such a fund wanted to buy an original 19th century cabinet filled with baseballs from a historic first proffessional season, or nice wagners in high end condition, or a black betsy or two, exactly which collectors are being deprived? An extremely well-heeled one or two across the nation? I seriously doubt I will sleep better at night knowing Hal is able to look at some amazing piece of memorabillia as opposed to it being held in a vault. I really think you are kidding yourself on this issue, and just taking the opportunity to have a whack at Bruce. Fun maybe, but hardly a righteous argument. IMO. daniel edited to ask: And, if you could just have a go at the question I asked, which was how is this any different to the Mastro or REA Auctions. How do I know the motivations and actions of those individuals or groups who end up buying material at such auctions? What guarantees do I have that they are not buying primarily becuase they believe it is an excellent investment, and that the material does not make its way directly to a very large, very dark, and very secure bank vault?

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12-05-2006, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthBrian, I had to bring in the milk and cookies long ago. After Bruce threatened, via email, to burn down my home and business and kill my family I wanted to clear a path for the fireman and the coroner. Did not need anyone else getting hurt.

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12-05-2006, 12:55 PM

Posted By: ChadThere's much better ways of making fun of the Dorskind group if that's all I wanted to do. In his own post, he states that dealing with these funds is inevitable. Is it? Is it a good thing? I think it's not. Thanks for explaining my motivations to me, though. I guess my righteousness is matched only by your arrogance. Maybe we can be a "We", too? --Chad

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12-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Posted By: E, Danielwhere exactly did I explain your motivations? daniel edited: Oh, and yes. I almost forgot. How is this all different from the Mastro and REA auctions again?

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12-05-2006, 12:59 PM

Posted By: BrianGeorge is getting angry!

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12-05-2006, 01:12 PM

Posted By: DJBarry, stop patting yourself on the back. It's like saying the moon will come out tonight. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jim, where did I say that I wanted your mission to fail? I encouraged your mission. I think you scroll the posts, see the ones you like and refuse to think that anything negative can be said about your mission. In truth, a large majority of the readers here collect low grade cards and don't really care about your mission and some "in the know" aren't surprised at all, just surprised of some things that were admitted. The next VBC Forum poll should be the following: WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE? O----Five-hundred and twenty four T206 cards (a set) in Fair condition. O----Two PSA8 T206 Commons. (low registry cards) O----Twelve e107 cards in poor condition. Then you will see what this Board's collecting focus is all about. DJ

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12-05-2006, 01:13 PM

Posted By: ChadGeorge has to close up shop anyway. George is getting busy. George has to work sometimes or he won't even be able to buy those 90 Leaf Sammy Sosas to fill himself up with. (Disturbing image, by the way.) --Chad

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12-05-2006, 01:16 PM

Posted By: S GrossHey Leon, I am a terrible reader (I was Dyslexic before Dyslexia was cool), and it takes me forever to read through all these post: Do you think you could come up with "Net54 on tape" ?<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>? Thanks, Scott PS -- I totally agree with everyone.

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12-05-2006, 01:23 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittJames Earl Jones could narrate....... Or Carrot Top........

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12-05-2006, 01:29 PM

Posted By: ScottIngoldIs it just me or does the video short remind anyone else of the afermentioned George Costanza ? To funny BOTN.

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12-05-2006, 01:34 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittLooking a little closer.....I think he could become a hand model........

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12-05-2006, 01:41 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSoft and delicate...yet very masculine! That's the Puffy Shirt Episode.

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12-05-2006, 01:42 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittBut was he master of his own domain?

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12-05-2006, 01:50 PM

Posted By: joeseems to be a HEX on NY City, 1st WE could not get a lunch together, now WE can't get a small card show organized. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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12-05-2006, 01:52 PM

Posted By: barrysloateGeorge was master, but not the guy he replaced. That guy developed arthritis and crippled his hand from...well, you know from what. That episode was also the debut for Jerry Stiller as Frank Costanza- the scene where he tells George about his silver dollar collection was his very first. I love Seinfeld trivia.

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12-05-2006, 01:59 PM

Posted By: T206Collector<a href="http://nyshows.org/main_page" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://nyshows.org/main_page</a> Why does JPS promote shows in White Plains and Long Island, but not in the middle in NYC? It must have to do with cost and the belief that most collectors are really in the suburbs.

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12-05-2006, 02:03 PM

Posted By: John As long as Lloyd Braun is there I'm ok with it, honestly why cant you guys be more like Lloyd Braun???

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12-05-2006, 02:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think NYC is extremely expensive and there is too much red tape to deal with. Plus, hotels are prohibitive and that would scare promoters away, fearing poor out of town turnouts. They used to have one at the Armenian Church in the 80's as others have cited, but for numerous reasons they just disappeared from NYC.

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12-05-2006, 02:05 PM

Posted By: steve f"He relied on Cub Scouts to feed him... Let's just hope you have a little more self-control." George, "You don't have to worry about me,________________________."

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12-05-2006, 02:07 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAnd there were two Lloyd Brauns- the first one who got George an appointment with Mayor Dinkins doctor was different from the second, played by Matt McCoy. I guess they hoped the audience wouldn't notice this. Several other examples of two actors playing the same role occur on the show- such as Phil Bruns playing Jerry's father for one episode before he was permanently replaced by Barney Martin.

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12-05-2006, 02:13 PM

Posted By: ScottIngoldGeorge is getting MAD !

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12-05-2006, 02:14 PM

Posted By: JohnDoes it have to be "Black Tie" I'm a big fan of casual Fridays..... <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/websize/Timeless_Art_Of_Seduction_by_L05ER.jpg">

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12-05-2006, 02:20 PM

Posted By: steve f"ahh, the timeless art of seduction." Am I the only one here that Ebay's, wearing that identical outfit?

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12-05-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: warshawlawOk, assuming for the sake of discussion that anyone would be stupid enough to invest in such a fund post-Ohio, how would it really play out? If your fund manager was charged with the task of buying only the "best" cards, how would he figure out which definition of "best" to follow? Would it be "best grade" or "rarest card"? Would he buy a PSA 10 1952 Mantle instead of a Western Playground set? Would a T206 Wagner be considered "better" than a group of E107 HOFers costing about the same? How would they possibly price rare items, other than by guessing or topping everyone else at auction? And selling, how could that happen? There isn't any exchange for these things. They'd either have to form their own auction house, do private sales, or work with the auction houses (paying a hefty "load" in return in the form of the commissions and BP).

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12-05-2006, 02:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI think having a fund that invests in cards is an interesting concept--he would buy and sell just like stocks--buy the blue chips like a Mantle PSA10 or the ungraded dogs--wherever the best value was for the money. If LarryMayer ran a hedge fund in cards I would invest with him--he watches ebay like a hawk, buys cheap and sells at a profit and seems to do very well at it. Larry usually deals in only the high quality stuff which turns over more quickly.

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12-05-2006, 02:47 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, it's no fun when it's this easy. Besides, the last time I got into it with His Royal Majesty, he threatened to have me killed. All emails have been kept and my local authorities have been notified of his threats in case something unusual happens to me. I, or should I say we, warned him that if he ever threatened me again that the apropriate autorities in his area would be notified of all threats he has made against me. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-05-2006, 02:51 PM

Posted By: BobYikes! That is 2 posters now who say they have emails where they have been threatened to be killed by another poster. Crap, we are talking about pieces of cardboard here fellers. (We are wondering when this thread warped in to another dimension)...

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12-05-2006, 02:53 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, who is this "him" and "he" you are referring to? I'm thinking you're having pronoun issues. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 02:56 PM

Posted By: jay behrensYou are right. I should have said "they" and "them". My apologies for the gramatical faux paus (can't spell sissy foo-foo French words. I wasn't raised by servants) Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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12-05-2006, 02:59 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethJay, "we" understand. Or is that "oui"?

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12-05-2006, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Oui oui I wonder if French kids tell thjer moms that they need to go oui, oui...

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12-05-2006, 03:28 PM

Posted By: SteveA show in NYC sounds like a great idea! maybe the dinner could be held around it too. Steve

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12-05-2006, 03:32 PM

Posted By: David SmithNo, kids in France tell their Moms they need to go yes yes. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-05-2006, 03:33 PM

Posted By: BrianWhy dinner? Why not a breakfast? Duels at dawn, then have breakfast.

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12-05-2006, 04:11 PM

Posted By: John SMaybe this will scare them away...kind of like a cross to a vampire. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165277225.JPG"> Spend your money as you will, PSA 8's, creased and beat, its just a hobby to me.

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12-05-2006, 04:18 PM

Posted By: barrysloateOne of the first things I learned in this hobby is there is no right or wrong way to collect. If we could all just take that to heart the board would be a more harmonius place. PSA-8 is not better than PSA-1; it's just different.

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12-05-2006, 04:33 PM

Posted By: RichardWell, Barry, if you could take that PSA 8, sell it and buy 100 PSA 1's with the proceeds, I would say that indeed, that PSA 8 is far better than the PSA 1 !

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12-05-2006, 04:45 PM

Posted By: Rich KleinLoves General Hospital, which I always tell her is a waste of time (All my Children and One Life to Live were always better anyway). However, I think I will tell her to read this board in the future -- this is more entertaining than any soap opera Regards Rich

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12-05-2006, 05:06 PM

Posted By: LarryBruce- I am amazed at the power you have, taking so many at Net 54 and unifying them against a common front at the stroke of a thread, the disgust expressed seems to have no borders. I would love a good NY show but maybe, just maybe you can be a little kinder and thoughtful. Even if your intentions are well meaning, it appears to be a reach since you are leaning toward arrogance. How can you justify alienating so many collectors and potential future collectors while trying to represent New York, the center of many cultural & economic classes and multiple beliefs. Hope you can put humility back into your life, that will make you an even stronger man than you think you are now, no disrespect intended. Happy Holidays- Larry

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12-05-2006, 05:07 PM

Posted By: Frank EvanovWell I sure missed a lot today. It would be great having a show in my backyard. I have spoken to Jimmy Ryan about it in the past and he cited the reasons listed above [parking, hotel fees etc] as to why he would never do one there. So I guess we're stuck with the Long Island National every 6 months. Frank

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12-05-2006, 05:10 PM

Posted By: AlanI think this song sums it up: <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=pBAasek8NR4" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://youtube.com/watch?v=pBAasek8NR4</a>

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12-05-2006, 05:30 PM

Posted By: JimBJohn S, That post with scans was the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. Thanks, JimB

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12-05-2006, 06:17 PM

Posted By: Judson HamlinWow, I can just feel the love. A few thoughts -The "we" thing is really throwing me. I just watched an old Muppet Show episode with my daughters and Peter Sellers is doing some Queen Victoria impersonation in a Viking helmet saying "we will receive him.." We are not amused. Actually we are. -A Manhattan show isn't impossible. There is a postcard/ephemera show at the Penn Hotel a couple of times a year, so a paper themed show can be done. I mean, those postcard collectors can't be better or more organized than us, right? (checks NYC Dinner threads) Oh, right, never mind. -When it comes to this "hobby"(and I recognize that is is a business for many of this board's members), I am clearly a have not. Like many of us (I suspect) I am a fair to vg-ex collector for all my pre-war sets, and wouldn't know what to do with a PSA 8 T205, except sell it for a heap o' raw vg's. And I do feel like a dollar spent on a grading service is a dollar lost for another card. A PSA 8 show has all the allure for me of say, a Menudo reunion concert or watching a "The Simple Life" marathon. But good luck with that. -You may now return to your regularly scheduled sniping, ranting, etc...

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12-05-2006, 07:14 PM

Posted By: jackgoodmanDoesn't anyone remember back in the 80's when David Hall (I think that's the original PSA guys name), actually tried to create securities to sell on Wall Street that were backed by baseball cards. Tony (Galovich), if you're reading this, I think I remember you being initially involved. Do you remember what ever happened to the idea back then? But since there are no securities around today, I'm betting it didn't work then and it won't work now. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

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12-05-2006, 07:16 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellIt would have to be like a closed-end mutual fund designed to last a certain period of time--I think with the right guy running it, it could be a great investment.

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12-08-2006, 01:04 AM

Posted By: edacraThe truth is New York is a real nickle and dime town when it comes to collectibles. It's a suprisingly great flea market city, with a good cross section of merchandise, but there are very few upscale shows for a reason. Same with auctions. I've watched auctioneers take some heavy dives in this town There was a furniture auction I witnessed where the dealers were buying back their own merchandise back because paying the buyers premium was better then the lowball closing bids. The first Grafitti art auction was poorly represented, in the mid 90's, and again major works were sold way below value because they attempted to make something exlusive, and upscale when there wasn't yet a market for it. Meanwhile, this city has some of the most established auction houses in it, and it's not like you can buy much at Sotheby's for $2. So just make sure the approach doesn't alienate people. This town could really use a low key show with a large amount of quality dealers, in a tried and true venue like the 26th Street Armory (69th Regiment). The sports crowd doesn't really live in the city, they just work here...Manhattan is more of an arts & culture town..so you have to appeal to that cross over crowd* instead of target the luxury box crowd. That's my opinion. *a good example of crossing over would be a recent book of art from Japanese menko cards that's for sale at Giant Robot stores, MOMA gift shops, and some downtown hipster shops too.