My Ideas for Next Steps [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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12-01-2006, 04:55 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellFirstly thank you all for the outpouring of support. I think almost everyone supports this in concept and as long as the boards are not crowded with the other posts I think almost all will be happy. I have gotten a lot of e-mails regarding ideas and I wish you would all post them here so they can be talked about. I would also refer you to Bruce Dorskind's post a week or so ago where he proposed a number of things. Lastly before listing my ideas of steps I would ask you all to remember that many dealers are taking light creases out of cards(some think this is fine) and that the microtrimming/reshaping of cards has been described as an epidemic--hopefully the top grading companies can stay on top of this. Anyway, these are my ideas: 1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not. 2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?) 3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers 4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned. 5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors. 6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics. 7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics. 8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect. Other steps such as some of the ones that Bruce suggested take time and money and the dedicated time of one or more people. Anyway, I look forward to everyone's comments. Jim

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12-01-2006, 05:25 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldMy thinking would be to end your inquisition, or at least give us a break and keep it down to one thread.

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12-01-2006, 05:30 AM

Posted By: dennishow about the next step is starting your own net 54 board to discuss these issues.

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12-01-2006, 05:45 AM

Posted By: T206Collector[I think almost everyone supports this in concept.] Obviously that's not true. And, in any event, McCarthy had supporters, too.

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12-01-2006, 05:49 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellT206, So a code of ethics for the hobby is akin to McCarthyism--which items on my list don't you support?

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12-01-2006, 05:55 AM

Posted By: peter ullmani personally am pretty tired of all of this nonsense as well. this isn't medicine...it's not rocket science...it's a hobby...collecting pieces of cardboard with pictures of men in leggings...what the f$%k? pete in mn

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12-01-2006, 05:58 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...the concept that is troubling, it's the measure of enforcement -- saying everyone loves you, when Leon has a post saying 50% of e-mails think you're killing Net54; suggesting that anyone that isn't supportive of a code of ethics isn't ethical; starting 15 posts asking auction houses to respond -- failure to respond results in the suggestion that such auction houses are unethical. I have said in a previous thread that your credibility is good given that you stand to lose more than gain financially given what you're promoting as a high grade collector, but nobody likes to have leadership shoved down their throats like this. That's not leadership -- it's not taking the initiative -- it's being a bully. That's why you are faced with suggestions that what you're doing is akin to an inquisition or McCarthyism.

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12-01-2006, 05:58 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittones you list but are YOU ready to man the helm, set up the office, collect dues and disburse checks, send out dealer packets, etc etc etc. I think the idea has been tried before. Not sure what the name was but there was one or more collector type endorsing agencies during the 1980's and it kinda fell through from what I can remember. The issues (and DOLLARS) are much larger now and it might gain legs, but someone has to be IN CHARGE. I know you've pushed these issues. Are you the man?

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12-01-2006, 06:05 AM

Posted By: John SJim, I respect your concerns and you have definitely made some valid points regarding the hobby. For me however collecting cards is nothing more than a recreational pursuit...a link to my childhood. I especially enjoy the history of the game. The cards are a link to earlier times. I simply cannot be that serious about sometime that I view as a pastime.

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12-01-2006, 06:21 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- your ideas are excellent but like everything else in this hobby and on this board, getting people to come to an agreement may be more difficult than trying to clean up the mess. But I would be interested to see how this all evolves.

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12-01-2006, 06:26 AM

Posted By: leonI spoke with Jim about this this morning. It's a great idea, imo, but just won't work as no one that wants it wants it bad enough to devote all of the time it will take. At the same time I think, if this stuff is so important, then this thread will stay on top, and on topic, and the rest of the threads can talk about cards. I do politely disagree with Barry a little bit. I think this board is resiliant and the hobby is FAR more resiliant and will still be fun for whomever wants it to be. It was a bad day for me yesterday on the board as it was for a lot of people. I guess if you were advertising it was a good day as we had 29,800 hits to the main page (a record by more than 6000 hits) and over 500 posts (another record by over 200).....Also, I might have had my first experience with not letting someone advertise because of the position they put me in late last night. I am still on the fence about it though. My guess is there might not be any advertising in the long run if I keep getting those insinuated "ultimatums" from advertisers....which might not be bad anyway.....Also, I guess that makes the few that will advertise get that much more bang for their buck...which they deserve.....take care and thanks again for all of the kind words and emails....they really are appreciated.

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12-01-2006, 06:26 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThese analogies seem awfully far-fetched. As to the subject at hand, I don't have any great ideas on how to fix the problem. The nature of the problem is pretty simple and as I see it has three parts: (1) there are people who can do things to paper that grading services (and perhaps even the cognoscenti on this board) cannot, or do not have the time or resources, to detect; (2) it is hugely profitable; and (3) noone who knows the culprits is likely to rat them out in a meaningful way, either for fear of reprisal, or reluctance to get involved, or because they are part of the system. There is some logic to Paul's (T206collector) approach, if I understand it correctly and forgive me if I am misstating it. If you can't tell, and a grading service can't tell, then don't worry about it. That approach, however, for a variety of reasons, is not going to be satisfactory to many people. So how to change behavior? My belief is that ultimately the only thing that might really make a difference is a government investigation (or perhaps private litigation), as happened I believe in the autograph segment. I have no idea how likely it is that any prosecutor would be sufficiently interested to take that investigation on. Private litigation poses a variety of challenges as well, although it would not be impossible. Short of that, I think continued dialogue with the grading services (along the lines proposed by Dave Forman) would be very helpful. I would like to know a lot more about their operations and what they are doing to keep on top of detection, for example, and would also like to know how much time is spent reviewing cards, whether all cards are examined under a blacklight, and so on and so forth. Maybe there should be tiers depending on the level of scrutiny you want your card to go through. I don't know, just some thoughts. Also, I think it would be very helpful if some of the esteemed members of this Board, including those so contemptuous of Jim's effort, shared their knowledge on how to spot alterations in some sort of comprehensive organized way. I recognize the internet is not the best medium for this, but I still think there is value there. Without intending any offense to anyone, I am a bit skeptical at this point of the utility of Codes of Ethics etc. unless there is some meaningful way to detect and punish violations, and I see significant issues as to both.

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12-01-2006, 06:27 AM

Posted By: jackgoodmanJim, Been there, done that, still have the t-shirt. Good intentions but still ain't gonna happen. Jack

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12-01-2006, 06:36 AM

Posted By: JayJim--Maybe the best idea is that, along with Leon, you set up a committee to go forward and try to put together a draft of what is acceptable and what is not. This draft, after completed, could be run by the board for comments. After a few iterations you may have something that could form the basis for an industry watchdog group. This would probably move things along more quickly and, at the same time, allow the board to breathe and return discussions to mainly vintage cards.

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12-01-2006, 06:41 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI think this is an important issue, and unfortunately it's not one that only affects collectors of high-grade material. It's also not one that only affects collectors of GRADED material. I also don't think this is an inquisition, or an issue of legality. It's an issue of consumer confidence. I've used this example multiple times in the last few days, but when a group of vegetarians wants to find out if McDonald's is using beef tallow in their fry oil, they expect a response. Not everyone is a vegetarian, and not everyone cares, but that doesn't make the question any less legitimate. The questions may not be of interest to everybody, but they are clearly of interest to some. The answers may be painful to hear, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be heard. And lastly, I don't think it's Jim's questions that have polluted these threads. Jim has been very polite and has stayed very much on point throughout all of this. It's all the ancillary questions, backbiting, agenda pushing, accusations and personal attacks that have caused all the digressions. I do like the idea of keeping it all in one thread, though. -Al

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12-01-2006, 06:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul, I don't need to be on a Board of Directors--I am not doing it for myself--I am doing bthis for the hobby. I have been constantly looking for suggestions. I don't see it as 50/50--the complainers call Leon, some are just upset that these posts are dominating the board which they won't in the future, and somre are upset because they have consignments with the big auction houses(relax, this will have no effect. Leon, It won't work if you are on here saying it won't work. If a large number of people think these are troubling issues then there ought to be something that can be done. I am also happy that you are standing up to potential advertisers(not that I thought you would not) and not letting their potential business alter your thinking. I have no alternative agenda--please keep the suggestions coming. Jim

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12-01-2006, 06:45 AM

Posted By: leonI gave my opinion. It counts as 1. .......just like everyone else's. IF it will work then me saying it won't, won't make a difference. If Barry Halper couldn't do it back in the day, and no one is stepping up to the plate to take charge now, then my view stands. I hope I am wrong.....

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12-01-2006, 06:48 AM

Posted By: John WaltersHi Jim, the Goodwin thread where you called Dave Forman a hero is locked, so I will post here, but you said "what heroes like Dave Forman are doing to combat it." Do you remember this thread? You may want to do some more homework. <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1091141182/last-1091239958/Thoughts+on+SGC+and+grading+in+general" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1091141182/last-1091239958/Thoughts+on+SGC+and+grading+in+general</a> Steve Verkman, will you please elaborate?

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12-01-2006, 06:49 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, Just saying if a big percentage of us think its a problem, lets try to move forward with a solution and be upbeat that we can achieve one. Jim

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12-01-2006, 06:52 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn, I don't believe it. Jim

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12-01-2006, 06:54 AM

Posted By: KyleWhy not start your own auction house in which you gaurantee all the cards/items for sale are unaltered?

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12-01-2006, 07:26 AM

Posted By: WesleyIt is certainly worth a try. Perhaps a committee of six people who are all passionate about the hobby but with differing opinions would work out best for this card police activity. I would nominate the following: Jim Crandell Leon Doug Allen Jeff Litchman Steve Verkman Brian Drent

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12-01-2006, 07:26 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI have a job.

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12-01-2006, 07:28 AM

Posted By: WesleySo you think the committee should consist of only unemployed collectors?

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12-01-2006, 07:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- what you may find is little resistance by the honorable dealers to join such an organization, but you may not even be able to weed out and identify the culprits who operate under the radar and cause all the problems. It is likely that the paper restorers who are creating many of these bad cards are not known by us and sell their work to fringe dealers who then take them to shows, sell them, and disappear. These invisible problems may be the major source of the hobby's problems and these guys may never be identified, nor will they join a committee.

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12-01-2006, 07:35 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWesley, Sorry--that comment was for Kyle. I think its an open question for debate whether the group should be just collectors or a group of collectors and dealers and possibly graders. Your suggested group would be an interesting one. Jim

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12-01-2006, 07:38 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethMy personal belief, and it is just that, is that paper restorers are working a lot closer to the surface than Barry thinks.

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12-01-2006, 07:42 AM

Posted By: barrysloatePeter- what do you mean by close to the surface? I am not asking you to name names, but are they identifiable?

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12-01-2006, 07:44 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethYes, Barry, many people including well-known dealers know who they are and work with them -- in my opinion, of course. Some dealers may even have that expertise themselves -- in my opinion.

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12-01-2006, 07:51 AM

Posted By: howardInquisition? McCarthy? Why stop there? Hitler and Stalin had plenty of supporters also. One of McCarthy's supporters, by the way, was lefty favorite Bobby kennedy.

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12-01-2006, 07:52 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Perhaps but I don't think so. Dave and Joe know who is giving them the bad cards. They are on their guard in regards to these people. If the reputable dealers get behind this they can be helpful as well. I think it would in greater awareness of who these people are and hindering their activities. Jim

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12-01-2006, 07:59 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellTo clear up the record(this was pointed out to me in one e-mail), I feel the same way about Brian Drent as I do about JP and Bill. I think he is an honest dealer who would prefer not to post his thoughts here.. Jim

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12-01-2006, 08:08 AM

Posted By: whitehseAgain as a small time collector maybe I am a voice in the wilderness. The recent postings has opened my eyes even wider to issues in this hobby. I think we all knew things like this were happening but to get some sort of confirmation was very alarming. But at this point dont you feel that the attention that has been brought on these issues is enough to wake up the collectors in this hobby?? I mean to be honest I have been in this hobby for 30 years or more and I know the idea of a "collectors association" has been tried and failed miserably. I am not trying to be a jerk but I guess my question is this....what will make this attempt any different than all the others?? what will this association offer that others didnt? I guess at this point in time maybe you should rest in the fact that light was shed on a dark corner of our hobby and at this time buyers should be aware!! Fool me once shame on you....fool me twice shame on me! I do appreciate the effort that was put in place here and I can say if I am ever in the position to be able to do bidding with auctions houses I do know who I will and will not spend my hard earned money with. I think everyone here has been able to make up their minds regarding who they are spending money with and they dont need a seal of approval from a association that might not be here in 2 years. just my 2 cents

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12-01-2006, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsAnd here I was thinking that by this morning, there wouldn't be any more new threads. Ahhh!! Can we just give it a rest?! "I am not doing it for myself--I am doing this for the hobby." Sure. Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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12-01-2006, 08:12 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhitehse, Perhaps you are right--we could stop now and be content that we effected some positive changes and raised awareness. I think what could make this succeed this time is that the issues are greater and there is more collector demand for it. Jim

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12-01-2006, 08:19 AM

Posted By: leonWith all due respect and nothing personal I think this one thread is a great compromise......Surly anyone can not open 1 little ole thread if they don't want to. How about starting a good one yourself? take care

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12-01-2006, 08:20 AM

Posted By: shaneJim- Everyone has a job. Leon-you are the best! Keep up the good work. Verkman- I hope you get your 5'2", Herve' Velache, (i don't know the midgets correct spelling, but he always said Da Plane, Da Plane), tight jean wearin', rude biatch hirin', and overgrading raw material a$$ sued for all of your liable comments yesterday. Please stop sending me that .04 cent catalog you call an auction to my office immediately. I wouldn't use that 20 page catalog, full of starting bids of $12 for VG/EX commons from 1954, to use as a floor covering for my bird cage. You ought to talk about the time you sold me 4 colored 1971 Topps Greatest moments at the National. I returned them and you took them back, but then sold them to another collector the next day without mentioning that they were still colored. Character is all a person has. Money can't buy you a reputation or character. You are born with that-just like your 25' legs. I don't have a problem calling a spade a spade. I don't have a problem calling out a dealer for wrong doings, but for you to come out on these boards and post damaging statement towards a dealer and can't even remember the facts is wrong.

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12-01-2006, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusPerhaps the most illuminating post I have read on the many threads discussing this issue was Leon's reciting the substantial increase in hits and posts yesterday when this issue reached crescendo. To me at least that signifies that what we are discussing has hit a chord. While I respect very much those who opine we have beat this issue to death, or that the issue should not have been raised in the first place, and that I do agree we would have been better off without some of the negativism and innuendos (a point I might add which I believe applies to many other threads), I do feel this whole issue of card doctoring is a legitimate one for this Board and indeed is as productive and relevant a topic as this Board has ever discussed. Edited for spelling

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12-01-2006, 08:28 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisIn the early 1990's an organization of Dealers was formed called "Sports Collectibles Association International"....SCA. It had good intentions and lots of promises. But, it did not last too long; although, many "big time" guys in the hobby joined it and promoted it. BB card collectors, and especially dealers, are a very independent lot. Trying something like this now is doomed to fail....again. All is not lost, though, Jim can contact his Congressman and have him initiate a Congressional Hearings to investigations of all BB card dealers and collectors....as to the integrity of the cards in their collections. Congress will then refer to it as the House Unethical BB Card Inquisition Committe (HUBBSIC). And fair warning....we can all be expected to be subpoenaed before Congress.

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12-01-2006, 08:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandell Shane, My answer of I have a job was to the question why don't I start my own auction house? Jim

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12-01-2006, 08:32 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, Thanks for your post. Your reasoned voive adds substantially to the discussion. It is the big big topic in the industry and we ought not to sweep it under the rug. Jim

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12-01-2006, 08:34 AM

Posted By: JayShane--Are you saying that Steve has a 5'2" ass? That is very big! We must have different tastes but I can only commend Steve's hiring practices--especially with respect to his assistant at the National two years ago.

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12-01-2006, 08:37 AM

Posted By: John 1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not. Ok, but how will this be enforced?? 2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?) Has to include all parties, to be fair and protect the interests of all parties included in the system. 3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers Nice in thought but virtually impossible to enforce, unless a dealer/auction house just plain got caught you would never know. I also think it’s a bit like a code of ethics for life we all know what is fundamentally right and wrong but still cant really stop people from doing it with rules per say. People will say or sign anything most of the time, with little or no thought regardless of ethics. 4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned. Once again how will this be enforced? 5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors. Impartiality, and are they currently involved or had involvement with anyone in which they will be implementing this policy upon? Once the policy is agreed upon how is it enforced? 6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics. Getting them wont be an issue, enforcing however…. 7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics. Means nothing, sort of like the “World’s best cup of coffee” sign in half of the dinners in the world. 8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect. Great but unless its enforced, its little more than a comfort feeling, sort of like your mom saying you’re the best kid in the world. Might make you sleep better, but what’s it really doing for you?

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12-01-2006, 08:38 AM

Posted By: JohnThis concept is nothing new; in fact many industries employ this same type of concept from the steel, lumber, food, drug etc. Below is the formula in which they follow if you’re interested. The trick then becomes how do you implement the below into our hobby. I think its virtually impossible. But I will say I feel the below guidelines are the only true and effective way of regulating any industry. All other ways are essentially non enforceable or pointless. 1.These regulatory firms are non-profit, they garner what little income they do receive which goes to employ their staffs and cover expenses, from the very companies in which they are in a way policing. Budgets, incomes & officers are also set buy a board of directors set by the companies who particapte in the system. 2.In return these companies which in this case would be (Dealers, Graders, Auction Houses) who financially support these regulatory firms get their so called “Good House Keeping” seal of approval. Although its much more complex than that for the above types of industries, and the benefits are different. 3.As to protect the best interest of the parties that are being regulated once again (dealers, auction houses, graders) these companies or who ever agrees to be a part of the non-profit organizations regulating, is allowed to appoint board members to regulate and police the very firm they have agreed to be audited by. Generally these board members are very successful retired industry people within their field. Board members are generally changed every 2-3 yrs. 4.How does the regulatory non-profit firm work? They in a fact establish with the people they are watching over and enforce a list of rules or “code of conduct” if you must. The non-profit firms carry out routine inspections and surprise inspections and report cards are kept. Those companies that have fantastic report cards obtain many benefits to being policed in this manner. Those who don’t are eventually not included in these benefits any more, or are given ample time to correct. It is also important to note that not all of the above industries comply or partake in this system, only the ones who would like to benefit from it. 5.Employees or inspectors for the non-profit regulatory company. Technically cannot be involved or receive financially gain from the industry in which they are regulating. They also have to draw a very direct line regarding relationships etc. No gifts, fancy dinners and no business dealings with the company they inspect etc. All of this is set buy the companies that have chosen to be policed, board members. All of the above are viewed as major conflicts of interest. You can only imagine if a buddy of Dave Forman’s was inspecting PSA even if nothing was going on other than the connection, the implications and or potential for financial gain over there competitor would be unacceptable to anyone who is a part of the system. Also any findings via PSA could be disputed and therefore would lose credibility. 6.Yearly meetings are held between the employees & officers of the regulatory firm and the board members from the appointed companies that the regulatory firm manages. There are some other nuances to the above system, which I would gladly elaborate on if you would like that should put you in the right direction. All in all don’t think your idea is a bad one Jim, in fact others before you have had similar ideas. The issues facing you how do you find un-biased parties who have very little dealings within such a small industry as this, the keys are un-biased and with little or nothing to gain from the situation other than their paycheck. I said yesterday in my first response, nice concept but to do it right will take time money and boatload of effort. Even Leon in a way echoed that same view that finding the people willing to devote this time, money etc. will be a very tough job. Take what you want from the above, good luck in your project.

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12-01-2006, 08:40 AM

Posted By: MikeTed "I refuse to talk about the past"

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12-01-2006, 08:42 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn(Wonka), Should it proceed to that point would you be interested in serving with me on a committee or a Board or whatever to work on this? Jim

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12-01-2006, 08:46 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethOf course Congress is not going to investigate but it is at least possible that if cases of alteration could be well documented, a zealous prosecutor somewhere might be interested given the size of the industry. This did happen in autographs as I understand it, perhaps someone can correct that impression if it is wrong. One could track certain purchases on ebay, for example, and certain sales a month or two later and show patterns of significant "improvements" in cards -- distinctive markings or features show that they are the same cards. And I am sure there are other ways to build a case, for example, obviously stuff was done to the Lajoie card we have seen scans of. Collectively these would support an inference that something untoward is going on. But who among us is willing to make that effort or to come forward? Especially if the evidence suggests a friend may be among the culprits?

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12-01-2006, 08:52 AM

Posted By: JohnJim, I would be happy to give any and all input during that process. As far as committee or board seeing as I have purchased items from several of the auctions houses. It could be viewed as a conflict of interest, and subject to board approval of the people we would be working with per say. But we can always cross that bridge when we get there, also I do believe there is a gray area here in which we could tweak the above to fit or hobby. I don’t think it has to be as black and white, but it needs to be very close to be effective. At the very least I could help you spearhead or give some insight along the way if you would like?? Also I hope you understand how much work this would be??? Also no money to be made, and quite frankly daddy needs Plank and Magie so a lot of my time is spent on more capitalistic ventures. LOL Feel free to drop me an email and we will swap info. Best regards, John

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12-01-2006, 08:56 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThanks John, Appreciate your offer and ideas; time is a big issue with me as well. Jim

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12-01-2006, 09:10 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethIf there is one thing that is clear from these threads, there is nothing even close to a consensus among collectors, dealers and auction houses as to what are acceptable and unacceptable alterations. At the extremes everyone can agree, but in between there is a great variance of views. I would be curious how a representative group could ever establish a consensus industry standard in light of this divergence of views. Perhaps the better solution would be to agree on disclosure practices -- although of course compliance would be a huge issue given how much is undetectable.

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12-01-2006, 09:13 AM

Posted By: JKRather than a trade group or code of conduct, simply create something like the better business bureau where people can report their problems. Its self-policing.

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12-01-2006, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliPeter: Figuring out an acceptable set of standards for the entire hobby will be easy. All we need to do is get the board together in one place at the same time, to hash it out. Once they're all together, it should come together with no problems. Perhaps this should be done over dinner. Anyone like to suggest a date and location? -Al

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12-01-2006, 09:22 AM

Posted By: JohnWell, there could be a rough round table discussion at the reading show???? Just a thought… I'm in Philadelphia, and in New York twice a month on avg.

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12-01-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl, You and I live close-by so lets say Morris County NJ-- If there is anyone who lives in the NY/NJ/PA area that is interested in this please let us know. JIm

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12-01-2006, 09:34 AM

Posted By: RhysIf you go back and look at about 5-10 different posts on this forum dating back about 4 years, you will see that I was pretty much the only person to espouse the idea of a collectors association that self polices what is going on in the hobby. Each and every time I brought it up, it was met with resistance and people treated the idea like it was a pipe dream. I am not caiming I invented the idea as other hobbies and even this one have or did have organizations before I was born, but I have been baffled that the Sports Collectibles Hobby does not have one since all these forgeries and repro cards have come out of the woodwork in the last 5 or so years. I first started thinking about this idea with my brother Rhett because we both collect other things and almost every hobby besides cards has a functioning association that WORKS. Having said the above comments and having given this idea a lot of thought for the last 5+ years, I think the way this is being brought about is wrong and as a result it will not work. Anytime you go about anything with an Inquisitional or forced perspective you drive more people away than bring them in. The Network 54 board did not become popular overnight, it grew because people WANTED to come here. You have to attract people to an organization willfully or it will die. If you try and force responses from people and force membership than the day to day activities of this membership will all be out of a feeling of forced ethical duty and not genuine concern. If you started a collectors association on a small level and waited for membership to grow, people to see it work on a small scale, people would have FUN while being a member of it and Auction Houses and dealers will be forced to recognize it the same way they were forced to recognize this board. If someone had started a thread like all the ones on the board now 5 years ago, not a single person would have come on here. That is the power of an organization with willfull members and a strong base. You will have neither with the current appraoch. We already have a strong base on this board. We already have a moderator who cares about the hobby, and lots and lots of members who enjoy the hobby tremendously. You will NEVER be able to recruit a stronger base than the one that already exists. Setting a code of ethics within ourselves as a group of Network 54 collectors would be a great place to start. The board could start by setting an ethical base without any inquisitions. If an auction house or dealer does something against those ethics, they would be punished through decreased business from board members or loss of priviledges on the BST threads, advertising etc. until it acknowledges and it fixes the problem. There are all sorts of avenues that could be looked into to set up a fuinctioning organization that people WANT to join and clean up the hobby at the same time. Just a few comments from someone who has given this a lot of thought. Rhys Yeakley

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12-01-2006, 09:35 AM

Posted By: JohnJosh, good thought but essentially we have that here. People can report their problems and do; the next step is how do you enforce or investigate these complaints, then what actions are then taken? It’s really a question of accountability unless there are real repercussions for nefarious actions taken by dealers/card doctors or anyone else for that manner abusing the system. The you don’t have much more than an organized word of mouth club. IMO.

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12-01-2006, 09:38 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- according to the guidelines you posted anyone who would be chosen to oversee the industry could not have any affiliation with it due to potential conflict of interest. That unfortunately would include all of us. We each have developed relationships over the years with collectors and dealers, and there might be a bias if your favorite dealer was under suspicion and you were chosen to look into his business more carefully. So you would need a group who have no connection to the hobby whatsoever; thus, they would have to be noncollectors. How are we going to find people from the outside unless they are paid substantial salaries? Collectors may be willing to volunteer their services for the betterment of the industry, but impartial third parties would not.

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12-01-2006, 09:39 AM

Posted By: T206Collector[Figuring out an acceptable set of standards for the entire hobby will be easy.] Isn't it obvious that we do not have a consensus? Take erasing pencil marks and soaking glue of the backs of cards -- many of us, including the major grading companies -- think this is acceptable practice, while Jim and John(Wonka) disagree. If you are going to set standards, you ought to have minority opinion representation on your Board.

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12-01-2006, 09:43 AM

Posted By: BcDFuzz Veteran This was posted on the CU chat board~ Send user a private message View thread in raw text format A number of years ago, I bought a very desirable pack from one of the guys who later turned out to be a GAI grader. This was obviously well before GAI was established and PSA was a mere pup. The price was extra right so I picked it up. I paid less than the going rate for the wrapper and had bought it with intent to open. I suspected it was a reseal based on prior dealings with this person. Sure enough, when it arrived it was laughable. It was a whole piece of gum vintage 1979 based on the dimensions. Thumb print in the wax, etc. I opened it and there was a single card (as expected) with heavily rounded corners and multiple deep creases though the card. The wrapper showed no effects of corner wear or being foled and the gum was whole. Clearly this was fake. He knew it and I knewit. If you hire a person with this kind of ethics, you probably shouldn't be surprised by what you get. But in defense of the rest these guys, there are a few resealing artists that are incredible. Knowing for sure I believe to be impossible. I hope that PSA does not suffer in their reputation from making this choice to authenticate packs. I believe that some mistakes will be unaviodable. This was a driving force many years ago why I gave up packs and switched to wrappers and boxes. Best of luck. Fuzz BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> new chat board Elclods moderates has 42 posts! 31 of them are from Elkins himself-no job and no life!

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12-01-2006, 09:48 AM

Posted By: JohnBarry, you are correct there is a problem there. My above guidelines were showing what is the norm when these kind of firms are put in place. You will also notice that in my reply to Jim that it doesn’t have to be as black and white. I think there is a gray area here but ultimately you have to have some level of impartiality or the system will always be flawed. The trick as you pointed out, as did I, is how do you find that within our little community? Also as for outside parties being paid I clearly outlined how that happens above #1. Once again not saying the above will work, because I clearly stated that I feel it would not. However a mix of the above warped to fit our needs might. Still a lot of work though….

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12-01-2006, 10:16 AM

Posted By: JohnPaul, Without opening this can of worms again, I have no problem with erasing marks and or removing glue from cards. I don’t view this as altering the card, however I do feel it should be disclosed and should lower the overall value of the item. Grading companies also agree with me hence the MK qualifier and or lowered grade. But you me and the lamppost know that if it cant be detected most people aren’t going to be honest about it. Simply because it does lower the value in most peoples mind, if it didn’t people would boast or be very proud of the restoration work. Also for the record SGC does not endorse it, they simply stated if done correctly it’s almost impossible to detect.

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12-01-2006, 10:18 AM

Posted By: MVSNYC"Regardless of the verdict of juries... no dealer (or auction house) who alters a card... no dealer who undertakes, or promises to alter a card... no dealer who sits in conference with a bunch of crooked dealers and auctioneers, where the ways and means of altering cards are discussed, and does not promptly tell his customer about it...will ever sell baseball cards again." -Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis i know this is a very serious topic...just thought i would have some fun here & put a smile on everyone's face... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Michael Sarno NYC

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12-01-2006, 10:35 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorWe're a lot closer on this than I thought. I also have no problem with erasing marks and or removing glue from cards. And like you, I don’t view this as altering the card. While I do not think there is an affirmative "duty to disclose," I agree that it should lower the overall value of the item, if detectable. And also agree that grading companies provide the MK qualifier or a lowered grade if they see evidence of it. Where we part ways, somewhat, is that I view an MK qualifier or lower grade as an endorsement of these practices, unlike, say, trimming or chemical bleaching. If this isn't an endorsement, it is at least remaining neutral on the topic. Again, with my Chance (formerly in PSA 4 MK holder, now in SGC 40 holder -- submitted for crossover without cracking it out), it is obvious both PSA and SGC saw the poorly erased pencil markings on the back. I have several other examples that reflect this practice. In short, the major grading companies currently employ the standard that I endorse. I am also against those that try to alter cards in ways not permitted by the grading companies; especially if those people are trying to get their reworked cards graded by such companies. It appears to me that Jim would prefer to have a policy that erasures and soakings were impermissible and that cards with detectable erasures or soakings should not be graded by the major grading companies or sold at auction without a disclosure of such findings -- basically endorsing an MK qualifier; whereas I prefer that SGC gives you a hit in the grade, rather than a high grade with an MK qualifier.

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12-01-2006, 10:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul, John, Barry and Peter, While I have a certain set of beliefs, I would be a consensus builder on this. If the majority of the committee and for that matter the hobby at large thought taking wrinkles out of cards was okay and that it would never be detectable anyway then I would go along with that. I would certainly passionately state my views to the contrary before that. Reaching a hobby standard requires everyone to comprimise and be able to show some give around their core beliefs. Jim

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12-01-2006, 10:48 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPaul and John(Wonka)--where do you guys live?

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12-01-2006, 10:52 AM

Posted By: JohnJim, I agree, taking out wrinkles is not kosher (can I say that being a gentile?). I’m in the Philadelphia area. Feel free to drop me an email and we will exchange info if you would like to brainstorm on a solution. John

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12-01-2006, 10:52 AM

Posted By: BcDwhere's the photos requested? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-01-2006, 10:59 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWouldn't you also get the MK qualifier if you had a card graded that had an ink mark or stamp on the back even if there was no atttempt to erase it? For example, a card that would be VG but it has an initial on the back. That would get a 3 MK, but I may be wrong. Also, asking someone to admit in a sale that they removed a light pencil mark from the back of the card, say a blank backed Old Judge, might be expecting a little too much. I don't think even I would mention that if the erasure were invisible, and I think I am a reasonably ethical person. I think there are things exponentially worse than that going on, such as cards that have been rebacked that now reside in holders (yes, that really exists), so I hope we all agree that a stray pencil mark isn't something we should focus too much attention on.

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12-01-2006, 11:00 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellJohn, Could you drive an hour to have dinner on a weekday night? Jim

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12-01-2006, 11:02 AM

Posted By: BcDI have nine of the PSA 8 Old Judge cards available can they rival the T-206 commons? under close inspection with the correct eqipment,( I use lab equipment from my jewelry store I sold),they are in no way ALTERED! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> lucky me! BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-01-2006, 11:32 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBrian- if you've examined them under a microscope, they are probably fine. Hope they were given the same rigorous test the first time around.

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12-01-2006, 11:42 AM

Posted By: JohnBarry, good points. I said it should be disclosed, and I know its wishful thinking on my part. Also for the most part the pencil thing is the least offensive IMO, even if you said a small spot was erased, I doubt it would really impact my purchase price on a tough card, on a more common card though it might have an impact. Perfect example, residue/stain removed from this card would bring up its value quite a bit, me I don’t care I'll take all the 2’s that look like this, but in the hands of the wrong guy... <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/websize/Untitled-1%20copy_2.jpg"> I would also be upset to find out if I bought this card after it was cleaned for $600 that it was cleaned and resided in a 2 holder prior to being worked, as I think most people would be.

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12-01-2006, 12:03 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- Actually, a stain like that might not be easily removed and would take a chemical solvent to get off. So do we agree that that is a step beyond erasing a stray pencil mark, or is it exactly the same thing? This is a perfect example where we need to agree on standards of ethics.

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12-01-2006, 12:07 PM

Posted By: JohnNot just a step beyond, but a whole pole vault IMO. I think were on the same page here at least for me that is...

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12-01-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...for that tape mark -- soaking with water or heating with a hair dryer. I doubt either would do the trick. If you have to add a chemical to the card, and that chemical leaves a residue, then that would be impermissible.

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12-01-2006, 12:38 PM

Posted By: Jerry Hrechka I'm a Non-Sports card collector. The BS I've read over the last few days is exactly the reason I quit collecting BB cards in the early 90's. I don't want to get into scoping, microscope examining, micrometer measuring, or carbon dating small pieces of cardboard. Paranoia reigns in the sports field - who did what to what card, how can I stab them in the back, I paid a dollar too much etc. Have fun guys, I'll stick to my collecting area where the angst & paranoia level is substancially less.

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12-01-2006, 12:43 PM

Posted By: Davewith all due respect...this is a vintage baseball card forum as the headline says.....have fun with your non sports cards, i'm sure there are sites for that as well

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12-01-2006, 01:12 PM

Posted By: JohnJerry, I too am Non-Sports collector in fact have way more non-sports than sports. My thoughts on this subject apply to all forms of card collecting. The only difference is for the most part there isn’t as much money to be made tweaking up Non-Sports. But the day there is look out, you may have a slightly different view. John

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12-01-2006, 01:26 PM

Posted By: JudgeDred2Wonk, That's one of the nicer looking "2s" I've seen. Jim, 1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not. NOBODY CAN SEEM TO AGREE ON THIS ISSUE. PERHAPS A POLE ON EACH TOPIC BUT I'D CHECK WITH LEON. MAYBE HE COULD SET UP A POLE EVERY WEEK WITH A FEW DIFFERENT QUESTIONS. YOU CAN THEN MAKE USE OF THE DATA. 2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?) 3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers 4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned.WE DIFFER ON THIS BECAUSE I DON'T CARE IF THE AUCTION HOUSE OWNS MATERIAL OR NOT, IT'S ALL GOING TO BE THE SAME. IF THERE ARE DISHONEST AUCTIONEERS THEN DISCLOSING WHAT'S THEIRS ISN'T GONT TO SOLVE ANYTHING. SOME STUFF JUST SELLS FOR MORE BECAUSE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE REALLY WANT IT. I COULD MAKE A CASE IN POINT BUT I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT - IT'S JUST MY OPINION. PERHAPS THIS COULD BE A QUESTION ON AN OPINION POLL 5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors. 6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics. GOOD LUCK ON THIS ONE. I'M PRETTY SURE TAHT A LOT OF DEALERS AND AUCTION HOUSES SEE THIS AS A BBB OF SORTS. THEY MAY NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH GETTTING A SEAL OF APPROVAL WHICH THEY PRETTY MUCH HAVE WITH THEIR CORE BUYERS ALREADY. AGAIN, IT'S A GREAT IDEA BUT GETTING IT OFF THE GOUND WILL BE A CHALLENGE. 7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics 8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect. Other steps such as some of the ones that Bruce suggested take time and money and the dedicated time of one or more people. Anyway, I look forward to everyone's comments. THOSE ARE MY COMMENTS. I THINK THE TOPIC IS EYE OPENING AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S WORTH READING BUT IN THE FUTURE I'D TRY DOING IT IN A MORE CONTROLLED FORMAT WHERE PEOPLE CAN'T SHRED THE AUCTION AND GRADING COMPANY REPS. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THEIR COMMENTS ARE WELCOME BUT EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION - NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH WHAT'S WRITTEN SO WHY LET THE BOARD MEMBERS TEAR UP A COMPANY REP FOR VOICING THEIR THOUGHTS. WE COULD DO IT ALL DAY LONG BUT IN THE END THE COMPANY REPS WILL GET TIRED OF BEING BEAT OVER THE HEAD. AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, I APPLAUD DOUG ALLEN, STEVE VERKMAN, BARRY AND ANY OTHER COMPANY REP THAT RESPONDED. TO ME THIS WASN'T THE INQUISITION, SALEM WITCH HUNTS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IT WAS JIM TRYING TO GET SOME ANSWERS TO A FEW QUESTIONS THAT I'M SURE A FEW OF US WONDER ABOUT.