If this were the stockmarket.............. [Archive]

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11-30-2006, 11:10 AM

Posted By: scott brockelmanAll of these posts would have driven it to record lows. I certainly hope all the collectors of high grade material, 8's and up, know what they are doing to themselves and their card "investments" by continuing the drudging of these high profile dealers and grading services. They are going to make it most difficult for that level of the high grade card market to sustain it's value. I could see the value of those 8's and 9's falling to prices not seen in the previous 5 years and making them very difficult to sell in any holder prior to this date. Theoretically many high end collectors from the registry's for example could see the value of their collection fall 50% or greater. But, I guess that would not bother them, as they appear to be the driving force behind all of this. Good luck on your quest for more information. Just be careful, you may get what you wish for, and then you will be worse off then before all of this inquisition began. Scott

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11-30-2006, 11:14 AM

Posted By: E, Daniel...... lets get the heads of Enron out of jail and back in charge. If only no-one had ever screwed up their con, then all the shareholders could sleep well at night. Absolutely ludicrous, what a laughable comment you've made. Daniel Enright

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11-30-2006, 11:14 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLose money/change the hobby for the better--not a bad tradeoff. Jim

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11-30-2006, 11:15 AM

Posted By: warshawlawHit the nail on the nose. If there was a way to short high end cards, I'd do it right now.

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11-30-2006, 11:18 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorTo me these posts have been nothing other than an acknowledgement that some significant portion of high grade collections may be suspect.

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11-30-2006, 11:20 AM

Posted By: scott brockelmanE. Daniel I am not condoning any of the actions of others. I am trying to point out to the vigilante's that they may want to approach this in a positive manner and not a lynch mob mentality. Jim, You may be able to sustain the loss in your portfolio, others may not be able. Also I would like to point out in defense of the card hobby as a whole, that the number of altered cards(not pencil removal or wax removal) but trimmed, rebuilt, recolored, etc in holders is extremely small probably less than 1%. Is that too much? yes, But is it worth throwing the baby out with the bath water? Let the grading companies do their job to the best of their abilities and help them to find ways to circumvent all of the new tech alterations. Adam, you are correct, there are a large number of people reading this board that would be delighted to see the high end cards plummet. Disclosure: I have both raw and high end graded cards in my collection.

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11-30-2006, 11:29 AM

Posted By: DJNothing is AT ALL laughable about what Scott wrote. Jim also got it right. It's an exchange. I have been critical about Jim (not toward his goal, just taking up so much of the Forum for his quest) but what Jim has done is kind of like showing the whole Board what's actually in a hot dog. A lot of us wouldn't want to eat hot dogs anymore after seeing how they are made. Some would still, but most wouldn't. If the prices fall over the next six months, this Forum and Jim's quest has played a vital roll in bringing down the prices. One person. One forum. Who would have thunk it? I already talked to three big dollar buyers who have been reading along and lurking and they are rather disgusted by some of the things they have read. As a person who prefers his card to be nude and doesn't go after "8's", I'm glad I never got into the hype of purchasing the number and high grade cards. DJ

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11-30-2006, 11:32 AM

Posted By: Cobby33Without pointing any fingers, I tend to agree with Scott. If there is a real, tangible problem, bring it out. But if you try too hard to find a problem where one may or may not exist, people are going to start believing it. I'm really close to just liquidating everything. Although I collect primarily for the enjoyment of it, there's no sense dumping a bunch of money (on albeit low grade stuff) in something that everyone is speculating is a complete sham. I think we've beat this thing enough, it's making it too tedious and I'm getting a headache too. The general tenor of the posts in the last month is getting absurd as well.

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11-30-2006, 11:33 AM

Posted By: leonand there goes my big advertising dollars <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ... I was gonna get rich too. I think the time I put in trying to keep the integrity of the board (extremely difficult the last few days) works out to about $4.00 per hour...and that's after the banners start getting paid for. Honestly, I am considering not doing this anymore as I don't have the time. I can make more being a greedy,money grubbing wh*** somewhere else....

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11-30-2006, 11:34 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAs with stocks, when they decline in price is often a good time to buy--which is what I expect to be doing in the December auctions. Glad I am not holding any of those mid-grade T206s now. Whew!

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11-30-2006, 11:35 AM

Posted By: Cobby33Give me a break.

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11-30-2006, 11:38 AM

Posted By: T206Collector[Glad I am not holding any of those mid-grade T206s now.] Actually, that's where the safe money is -- evenly rounded corners that anyone can tell weren't trimmed, slight wrinkles that everyone can see. It is one of the primary reasons I collect mid-grade cards.

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11-30-2006, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliGeez, I love my cards. The high-grade ones, the low-grade ones, the altered ones, the original ones, ALL of 'em. I can't WAIT to buy some new ones on Friday at the show! Wrinkly cards, skinny cards, fat cards, smooth cards...I am SO glad that this is NOT the stock market! Because if it were, I'd have to have some other hobby! -Al

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11-30-2006, 11:41 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDisagree--mid grade T206s have been dragged along by the incredible strength in prices of psa 8s. If psa 8s go lower so will the mid-grades. Jim

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11-30-2006, 11:42 AM

Posted By: leonI think I see a wrinkle that had a spoon taken to it in the upper left corner. 1. This card raw. $250 approximately 2. This card graded $250 approximately 3. Seeing high grade collectors squirm - Priceless <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://luckeycards.com/pe98bender.jpg">

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11-30-2006, 11:43 AM

Posted By: Cobby33BS. As I (and I believe Barry S.-if not- sorry) have pointed out, it's like comparing apples & oranges. Comparing PSA 8 T206's to PSA 4's and 5's is like comparing T206's to T214's. Go enjoy your high-grade stuff and let us enjoy our low-grade stuff. Why the "my bike is shinier thank your bike" nonsense?

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11-30-2006, 11:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellLeon, Well I am not squirming--I am a buyer. Small price to pay to bring integrity and honesty back into the hobby. The same people who missed the explosion in high-end vintage sportscard prices will miss the next one too.

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11-30-2006, 11:48 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCobby, Some are reveling in the fact that high end collectors could see the value of their cards come down. My point is everything comes down and perhaps by equal percentages.

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11-30-2006, 11:48 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorIt is like apples and oranges. If I could graph it there would be a much higher spike in price for high grade stuff than mid-grade stuff. That is, the increase in price for high grade stuff has been exponentially higher. If that were to come crashing down, mid-grade stuff would come down somewhat, but not as steeply. A lot of that has to do with the fact that there are other variables besides price of high grade stuff that influence the price of mid-grade stuff. For example, what I have said previously, that sharp corners on a PSA 8 T206 card look weird to me. Call me crazy, but it's all so suspicious.

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11-30-2006, 11:49 AM

Posted By: Cobby33Thinking that "honesty and integrity" will be pervasive in any billion-$ business is naive. There will always be scams, so why not address them on a case-by-case basis instead of creating some kind of pandemic scare?????

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11-30-2006, 11:49 AM

Posted By: leonI was only having a little fun. I need it. Honestly, very few of us have the same monetary concerns over very high grade cards as we don't collect too many of them. (By the way the number is around 20%.....give or take....from reliable sources....)

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11-30-2006, 11:53 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCobby, Because nothing would ever change. Lets see what happens with SCP Auctions tonight?

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11-30-2006, 11:57 AM

Posted By: scott brockelmanI confided in someone a few days ago that this may actually be a ploy on someones part to manipulate the market. Please read the posts above this and see if you can spot anyone that could possibly profit from this fall in prices, either financially or being able to gain more acquistions at a reduced price. Scott

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11-30-2006, 12:00 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAnybody tired of all this yet?...I'm a little worn around the corners myself.

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11-30-2006, 12:02 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellYup Scott--you win--I give up. I have a huge short bet on the card market. Jim

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11-30-2006, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI absolutely agree with Scott's insightful take on things. Jim couldn't possibly be motivated by genuine concern for the state of the hobby. Shame on you, Jim, for not revealing your true motives. You are as guilty as anyone else who has not made full disclosure. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-30-2006, 12:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellRight again Peter and let me congratulate Scott again on his expert analysis--let my 24,000 PSA high grade cards go down in value so I can buy a few cheaper--brilliant!!

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11-30-2006, 12:15 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- SCP Auctions closes tomorrow night. Those T206 are from an original find- I'll go long and bet they go through the roof. Nothing this board says or does will stop them.

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11-30-2006, 12:16 PM

Posted By: E, Daniel...I must confess. I have one card in my vintage collection graded above an SGC50. Clearly my plans are to plunder the rest of you. daniel

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11-30-2006, 12:16 PM

Posted By: DRit would be safe to assume numerous 'dealers' would end up in JAIL!

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11-30-2006, 12:19 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...the notion of Jim taking a dive for personal gain is ludicrous. While I disagree with Jim's plan, I have to agree that he should be commended for recommending something that would hurt him financially. That should be enough to protect his credibility here. Those 24,000 PSA graded cards would look much better in an SGC holder. How many do you suppose would cross over?

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11-30-2006, 12:22 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Right you are! Jim

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11-30-2006, 12:25 PM

Posted By: DaveIf from all this there happened to be enough of a fallout with high end cards....say PSA 8 T206's went from $1200-2500 to $300-400.....what would that entail do with the low end stuff that hasn't been tampered with? My PSA 1's, 2's, and 3's, while they are "cheap" and not a hit economically to many on the board...they would be a hit to me if they went from $25-$60 to $5-$20.....if the high end stuff ever falls, the low stuff has to follow.

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11-30-2006, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesyou are a millionheiress, doesnt mean that you can ruin it for others. Many rely on Auctions houses to buy other cards, pay bills ,buy their wife a new vehicle, etc...etc.... Just because you are bored with your 24,000 trimmed cards..... It is obvious that you only care about your own "hissy" ways or you would have regard to others. Iam shocked at your level of maturity overall and "frankly" could care less about any future posts that you have. You will not win with me, so lets have at it!

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11-30-2006, 12:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHa Ha--good luck Dan--and I mean it---and I love the hobby. Jim

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11-30-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDave- if PSA-8's go to $300-400 I'll take them all- unless Jim gets to them first. The fallout won't be that bad. There are a few nervous people out there, a few disillusioned, and a few fed up...but I'll still take all T206 PSA-8's at $400 a pop.

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11-30-2006, 12:37 PM

Posted By: DaveIt's not a slight, but I figured you would...you'd have the means to. Your not, I won't say young...your, already financially settled. I'm 30...my money after family and bills equates to a few T206's 2's here and there...I love them, and don't ever plan on getting rid of them....but, in emergency situations, when money is needed, it is unsettling to think the cards I'm spending $30 for now, I won't get but $10 for later....

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11-30-2006, 12:37 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDave, The market for psa 8 commons and minor leaguers(not southern league) has been Pop 1s--$6,000-$6,500 Pop 2s --$5,000-$5,500 Pop 3s--$4,000-$4,500 Pop 4s--$3,000-$3,500 Pop 5s-$2,500-$3,000 Pop 6 and above $2,000 to $2,500 So judge SCP Auctions prices against that benchmark. Jim

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11-30-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: Bryan LongWhat happened to collecting cards because you love collecting cards. I could care less what grading companies do, what the guy down the street does to his cards. I love my cards, will always love my cards and plan on selling my cards to buy more cards. Life is too short to fight about this stuff people. This board is such a small place in the collecting world and yet some people on here treat it as the whole collecting world revolves around what is said and done on this forum. People need to relax and start to enjoy the hobby again. Grading companies are not to blame - auction houses are not to blame - YOU ARE! Take a deep breathe, kiss your wife or significant other, hug your kids - thank God you have a computer to write all of this on - DO SOMETHING! But relax . . . please. We are not going to change the hobby for the good or the worse. Buy what you want to buy and trade what you want to trade or sell what you want to sell, but have fun for the love of everything holy. .

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11-30-2006, 12:41 PM

Posted By: DaveI believe you...I was merely throwing a number out on 8's. I really have no clue other than the few that make it to ebay that I've seen (even those I haven't paid much attention to because what the use for me) But, maybe your response is what I"m looking for...I agree with what your doing. I really do. However, I know in the end, worst case of what could happen is a fall in prices....and a fall at the top means a fall at the bottom....and even though you have the means to collect the high end stuff, the trickle effect the low end cards (would) get will still hit guys like me in the backside...I trust you understand that.

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11-30-2006, 12:41 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYou're right Dave. I may be a lot of things, but young is not one of them...but I used to be young, just a long time ago.

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11-30-2006, 12:42 PM

Posted By: DaveAgain, wasn't a slight, I too hope to be older...lol

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11-30-2006, 12:45 PM

Posted By: DaveFor me as a low end collector, I spend maybe $60 a week on average on a couple cards a week, there are some weeks I go a little stir crazy and will do $100-150, depending on what I've bought raw and got graded and stuck back on ebay because I"m not interested in them. Auction houses have no effect on me....the majority of what they have is high end stuff anyway and I cant compete to begin with, ebay and B/S/T is the only source of buying cards for me.

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11-30-2006, 12:46 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorPop 1s--$6,000-$6,500 Pop 2s --$5,000-$5,500 Pop 3s--$4,000-$4,500 Pop 4s--$3,000-$3,500 Pop 5s-$2,500-$3,000 Pop 6 and above $2,000 to $2,500 So, if you paid $6,000 for a Pop 1, and 5 more showed up, you'd lose $3,500. For every 1 that does show up, you lose about $1,000. You'd have to be pretty nervous sitting on a bunch of Pop 1's if you paid full retail for them. Just another reason high grade card collecting is totally irrational.

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11-30-2006, 12:51 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliHeck, T206, collecting BASEBALL CARDS is irrational, for crying out loud. We like what we like. Why get on someone for what he likes? In any type of collectible, there are people who want the high-end, top-of-the-line, rarest, nicest, biggest, most expensive. Cars, antiques, art, coins, whatever. Why begrudge a guy and call him irrational because of what he likes? This is a hobby, folks. There's room in it for everybody. -Al

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11-30-2006, 12:52 PM

Posted By: scott brockelman Most people do not like unsubstantiated allegations against them. In my prior post I only suggested that someone might have something to gain, a conspiracy theory if you will, and it took only minutes for other to choose sides, with no evidence of any kind. Perhaps a different angle in your quest for more information from card dealers and card grading services would be more productive for the hobby as a whole. Scott

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11-30-2006, 01:05 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellScott, I do have a master plan if Leon allows me to carry it out but I don't have all the good ideas so please speak up. Jim

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11-30-2006, 01:09 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAllow me to summarize my feelings: the pallor that has clouded this board since Doug Allen made his admission has been simply staggering, and the bad feelings that have arisen are truly demoralizing. Frankly, I don't know why I am still here. But the fact is, no matter how much chatter circulates from post to post, when the sun rises tomorrow it will still be business as usual. I have known for years that altered and restored cards have made their way into holders, so none of this is news to me. I don't think I could even tell the difference between a genuine PSA-8 and a retouched one. But the market is not going to collapse because of posts made on this board. The hobby is bigger than us. We can be an engine for change, but we won't cause a market this large to fall. If some are fed up and want to sell their collections, there will be somebody out there eager to buy it. I think these discussions have gone as far as they can; some dealers have come forth stating their views, a few have gotten into pissing matches with each other, and others refused to engage with this angry mob. I don't think it will accomplish anything to rehash this all over- we all know we have to watch our rear ends when we make a purchase, and that not everything is what it appears to be. How about we call a moratorium on all this stuff and get back to business. Either the hobby is fun, or it's not worth it. And the board in the last few days has been a really depressing place to be. I think we've hit the proverbial wall.

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11-30-2006, 01:15 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Maybe we can talk--I think it would be a huge mistake to end the process at this point. Plus look at all we have learned. Jim

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11-30-2006, 01:20 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanI can't imagine why there is even a need for a "Plan". It doesn't seem we need a conspiracy theorist to unravel this mystery. What few "bad" cards that may be located in slabs should be removed from the slab and marked as such. A further advancement of alteration detection equipment by the grading companies should be able to counteract much of the future alterations. Again I am talking about trims, colors, rebuilds, etc. Cards which have had pencil erased or traces of such or corners laid back down, should just be graded accordingly. Again, these posts are perpetuating a myth that the vast majority of cards in high end holders are tainted, which is far from the truth. However I would like to make one observation. The number of 1950 & 1960 cards in high end 8 and up with problematic cards is probably a much, much higher percentage than prewar cards. This is due to the vast number of cards available to work on if you will. If the operation is not successful, than one merely needs to find another mid grade card to try again. This is a little tougher to do in prewar cards and again the sheer production numbers and slab numbers would lead one to the conclusion that the problem would be greater in those eras. Yet another reason why we should not be getting the collectors in an outrage over what a dealer may or may not have replied to in a post. Scott

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11-30-2006, 01:23 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellHmmm, Not sure I agree with that. Scott, As I have explained elsewhere my plan ends with Network 54 and other serious ncollectors getting behind a code of conduct for the industry. Your suggestyions are worthwhile too. Jim

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11-30-2006, 01:24 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanAgain you speak with much wisdom and sage advice. Calmer minds will prevail. The hobby market will keep moving on, be it up or down, not based on these boards, but the ebb and flow of supply and demand for cards of all grades. Scott

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11-30-2006, 01:25 PM

Posted By: cmokingScott, I agree with you that it is only a minority of cards in high grade PSA/SGC holders that have been tampered with. However, that is certainly not the opinion of others on this board, including the moderator himself, who (correct me if I'm wrong) posted that he thought about half the high grade pre-war cards were altered somehow. Again, I don't agree with Leon's assessment, and I agree with Scott's....however I am also interested in trying to seek out more info. It is certainly possible that with more info I would change my opinion and agree with Leon. Getting more info is exactly what Jim is trying to do. (edited to be more clear)

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11-30-2006, 01:34 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanWhile such a code of conduct sounds nice in concept there are inherent flaws to that or anyother plan. Foremostly, the vast majority of cards have been encapsulated. Too implement any code of conduct now does nothing to undo any previous misconducts. Secondly, how in the world could such a code be enforced. This is why we have the problem we do now, the person altering the cards is usually not the seller or even the reseller, they are often many times removed and impossible to assign guilt to. Plus, do you really think a dishonest person is going to honor the code, heck they would probably be the first in line to sign one, especially if they thought their work was that undetectable. This all sounds so much like other remedies in other arenas of life that failed. Good intentions, but in reality the only people that got hurt were the honest ones, the crooks don't care. Kind of like gun control, a thief is still gonna be armed even though the law says he can't. A card doctor is still going to doctor cards, only perhaps to a lesser educated crowd, and if Ebay proves anything, there are still unknowledgable collectors with big bucks. Thirdly, Who is going to be the baseball card grading Czar? Scott

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11-30-2006, 01:39 PM

Posted By: peter chaoScott, Leon is going to be the grading czar. We know he really doesn't have a job because it's got to be easy keeping board members focused on vintage cards. Laugh out loud. Peter

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11-30-2006, 01:45 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanBut I know of a board member who would fill the shoes perfectly.

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11-30-2006, 01:51 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I think this topic is important, but we are beating a dead horse at this point. I think we've taken it as far as it needs to go. I don't think I will learn anything new from subsequent posts.

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11-30-2006, 01:53 PM

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)Scott, good point, "Secondly, how in the world could such a code be enforced." How can we enforce something when there is no way of detecting it? According to SGC, "These are examples of procedures that, if done carefully and properly, are unfortunately undetectable." Even if every major auction house come out and promises that they will not do it any longer, it will still happen. Only it will be all of the dealers and who buy the cards in their auctions that do it and get them upgraded and turn around and resell them.

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11-30-2006, 02:03 PM

Posted By: shaneHigh grade/rare material will always have a market regardless of the economic situation of this world. The rich will always have disposable income for these types of treasures. Jim-I agree with Barry on the value of T206's if the market ever dipped down to $400 per PSa 8. I will buy every one of those. In closing, I think it is important not destroy a persons character/business by assuming alterations are being practiced by certain people. We should enjoy what we collect and enjoy the friendships that have brought us together through card collecting. Shane

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11-30-2006, 02:11 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)A stock market usually deals in publicly held negotiable instrucments. The tougher cards (high graded included) seem to be more "privately" held companies/stocks. I like the irrational train of thought and the nervousness of the people with pop (1) PSA8 cards. It's absolutely hilarious to me. Someone pays $6000 for a pop (1) card only to see three more come available or worse yet, the crowning of a new king pop (1) PSA9 card. I suppose a lot of people could be making a stink in an effort to scare the grading companies away from grading higher graded cards (or at least scrutinizing them better) and also to put the auction houses on notice that "altering cards aint cool" (because it's wrong) and because populating the population reports with more PSA8 cards will diminish the value of the existing PSA8 cards. Maybe the next collecting niche will be to find OVERSIZED cards... Personally, I could care less if the whole (excuse the pun) house of cards market fell flat on it's face. I would like that more than anything - get rid of the speculators and get the cards back into the hands of the people that enjoy these things for what they are.... where are Karl Marx and Frederick Ingalls when you need them?

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11-30-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: warshawlawfor me to say <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> In Jim's defense, the brouhaha started not with his question but with Doug Allen's admission that Mastro engaged in card doctoring in an effort garner higher grades on cards it has submitted for slabbing as part of the auction process. That's not Jim's doing.

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11-30-2006, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonThis all might actually be a good thing... More suspicion about cards being sold/auctioned = lower bids = I might be able to afford some more cards! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Steve

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11-30-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Richard Masson"Doug Allen's admission that Mastro engaged in card doctoring in an effort garner higher grades" He admitted to laying down flipped corners, erasing light pencil marks and removing the occasional surface wrinkle. The vast majority of collectors and dealers do it. Any dealer that comes on here and swears he doesn't do these things is lying. Period. Full Stop. Getting people to sign some oath of compliance will never change these practices. Focus on trying to identify the real theives- the true doctors who trim, bleach, soak and stretch and rebuild corners. Doug's admission is not in any way newsworthy to anyone who has been paying attention over the last twenty years; he is being unfairly blasted for simply being honest.

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11-30-2006, 04:30 PM

Posted By: denniswell said richard!

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11-30-2006, 04:35 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanRichard, Thanks for a level headed post, of which there are few of lately. Scott

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11-30-2006, 04:38 PM

Posted By: E, Danielyou just called Barry Sloate a bald faced lier. Any chance you'd like to think about that one again? daniel Oh, and the vast majority of collectors? You've got to having a lend of yourself, no?

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11-30-2006, 04:47 PM

Posted By: cmokingDoug Allen stated that if SGC and PSA stated they felt removing wrinkles was altering that he would stop that practice. SGC has stated that. Will Doug stop doing it now? Whether or not you as a collector (any of you) believe removing wrinkles is fine or bad, that's not the point. The point is that Doug said he'd stop if SGC/PSA disagreed with him. SGC has disagreed.

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11-30-2006, 04:51 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisThank you for bringing some SANITY back to this Forum regarding all these chaotic Threads. and...... JUDGE DRED I'm with you......let the "out-of-sight" pricing levels in the BB card market collapse to the pricing levels of the early 1980's.....when you buy an ExMt T206 common for $10 and a Cobb for $100....a Goudey Babe Ruth for $150....a 1952 T Mantle for $500. T-Rex TED

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11-30-2006, 05:13 PM

Posted By: warshawlaw"He admitted to laying down flipped corners, erasing light pencil marks and removing the occasional surface wrinkle" aka...card doctoring... And to quote my Mom: Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right. If everyone else was jumping off a building would you do that too? And to quote my Dad: Political Science? What the hell are you gonna do with that? And to quote Taqgert in Blazing Saddles: I am appalled.

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11-30-2006, 05:32 PM

Posted By: barrysloateRichard wouldn't call me a bald faced liar, we've been friends for too many years...balding, perhaps, but not completely bald. I do admit to erasing pencil marks from the backs of Old Judges and things like that before I submit them. But to repeat, I don't think anyone finds this to be an unethical practice. If it leaves an indentation then it accomplishes nothing anyway. And as I said in some thread somewhere- there are so many threads running simultaneously I don't know where I posted anymore- I used to try to take out creases 20 years ago, ended up making the cards look worse, and quickly gave up the practice. Most of the time I was ironing out the crease so the card would look better in my set, and if I resold it, I turned a $12 card into a $14 card. It doesn't justify my actions, and I apologize for it, but I was young and impetuous. Those days are long over.

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11-30-2006, 05:36 PM

Posted By: John"Small price to pay to bring integrity and honesty back into the hobby." Congratulations Jim, you made the leap from the martyr role you generally play to that of the superhero role.

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11-30-2006, 05:36 PM

Posted By: cmokingBarry, you said you tried to take a crease out but failed. If you were successful, would you have continued doing it to this day? I know that's a tough philosophical question to ask because it is more an alternative universe type of thing...but curious what your answer is to that.

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11-30-2006, 05:37 PM

Posted By: AnonymousBarry, I think you are a superb dealer and a class act in the hobby. I think however you are misunderstanding Jeff and Jim, who believe pencil removal is comensurate with alteration. I think it is unfair to say pencil removal is accepted but light wrinkle removal is alteration. Either the standard is submit cards as they are without anything done as some suggest or aggree with Mastro. Charlie

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11-30-2006, 05:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateKing- somebody asked me that exact question and I answered it, but I can't even remember what thread it was in. There are like ten threads going on at the same time discussing the same topic. But to answer your question, no, I could not do that today. The simple reason is it is dishonest, and in a manner of speaking it is a form of stealing money from somebody. And my conscience wouldn't let me do that. I stop at pencil erasure, and that is it. I'm really not that obsessed with making money. I like it, but I prefer to work for it, not steal it.

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11-30-2006, 05:48 PM

Posted By: cmokingThanks Barry. Sorry to ask the question again, I thought I had read all 2000 posts already. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-30-2006, 05:51 PM

Posted By: E, DanielI thee wed.

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11-30-2006, 05:51 PM

Posted By: AnonymousBarry, Is Mastronet stealing? It sounds like you liken wrinkle removal to stealing? Charlie

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11-30-2006, 05:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateLet me put it this way. For every dollar added to the final price of a card by artificially enhancing it, that is a dollar stolen. If a VG card is worth $50, and by ironing out a crease you are able to sell it for $100, then in my book you just stole $50.

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11-30-2006, 05:56 PM

Posted By: DylanI hadnt the time to read through all of the posts. However I think this all lends a grand oppurtunity to the auction houses to change and run as transparent as an operation as possible. Also to the grading companies- obviously if a vintage card's worth equals thousands of dollars its ok to charge more to spend more time authenticating it. Cards graded to a higher service could have an asterisk on the slab. I would spend more on it knowing that its been through rigourous testing.. and maybe that would give some sort of incentive for the high grade material out there right now to get re holdered and we could all feel better about it!

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11-30-2006, 05:56 PM

Posted By: Chris CountsMy unslabbed, beat-up, pin-holed, creased, off-centered, tape-stained and dog-earred collection of cards is looking better every day! Ah, the simple life of a small-time card collector ...

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11-30-2006, 06:05 PM

Posted By: joe brennan I have read about all this over and over and over again. I have refused to respond because actually I didn't have anything to say till now. I lurked for about 3 months last year before I joined and started collecting T206's Low grade, mid grade, what I could afford and what I liked. I found this board to be informative, interesting and enjoyed members posting pictures of cards I will never own but loved the history and the images. Frankly in the last few months I find the board to be boring, self serving, pompous and frankly more than childish of late. How else can you explain the NY Dinner thread, but childish or idiotic may be more appropriate. Now, in the last week we have had 15 threads about events that everyone in this hobby confessed to knowing about. None of this is news to anyone and quite frankly is the same **** over and over again with a slight twist. You can say, I don't have to read it and you are quite right. I don't have to be here and you are right again. What I'll ask is what happen to discussing cards, the history of the card and the pics and congrads of new cards. I think the latest discussion out numbers those threads 4 to one. The pissing matches and pompous attitudes get old and boring fast. I know no one gives a **** if I stay or go, but I would like to go back to a time when the fun threads outway the witch hunts, name callings and libel suits are 1 to 15 ratio again. Only one more thing, Jim Crandall when you get something in your head, you become obsessive to an extreem that I have rarely seen before. People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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11-30-2006, 06:52 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisYou are absolutely correct....how much more can this "dead horse" be beaten down ? A growing number of us have had enough of this "horse-crap". Joe, your comments about the lack of more meaningful subjects regarding BB cards and just BB in general this past month is very true. I posted another one of my T206 Surveys which I felt would be quite informative on Sovereign backs....and it "died" and vanished into never-neverland. And, why was this, when my previous such Surveys on T206's or E90-1's received over 100 responses ? And, I noticed other similar Threads with worthwhile information "dying on the vine" ? And yet, why is this so.... because all the "freakin" ENERGY and OXYGEN in this Forum has been exhausted by this "freakin" obsession by one member. Which when all the dust finally settles will have proven nothing. However, it creates the perception in some minds that the "bad guys" in the hobby are being flushed out.....BULL-CRAP ! LEON....a growing number of us want to return some normalcy back to this Forum......PLEASE.

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11-30-2006, 06:58 PM

Posted By: Dan KravitzAmen Ted!

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11-30-2006, 06:59 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellOne member--ha. Ted your head is so deep in the sand it may take you months to find it. I love how you have taken your personal mission against my efforts to try to clean up the hobby and now say its everyone against me. Kind of sad. If people cared about your posts they would respond. I hope they do--you certainly have something to add. Be well. Jim