Card Restoration....the REAL Grader's Fear [Archive]

Archive

11-30-2006, 05:45 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMy 1941 Joe DiMaggio looks really great.......could be a PSA 9 or an SGC 90+ ? And, I am tempted to submit it for Grading.......but, as most of you know, I don't care for graded cards in my personal collection. Actually guys, this card was less than Vg....with rounded corners and a crease thru the center of it. It's the only card I have had "restored" and I was really amazed with the result. I wanted a near perfect 1941 card of Joe D. to honor his 56-game hitting streak. As I believe it will probably be the last vintage record that will stand. <img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ajoedimaggio41.jpg"> You Graded card dudes better be more concerned with the Professional Restorers, rather than the "amateurs" involved in altering cards. Because, if the $$$$$ get any higher on "high-end" BB cards, the restorers will be working overtime. And, they can restore cards to the degree that the Graders will not be able to detect the difference. T-Rex TED

Archive

11-30-2006, 06:19 AM

Posted By: Trae R.T-Rex, do you have a before scan we can see? I'm very interested. Thanks

Archive

11-30-2006, 06:43 AM

Posted By: RayBIn general I am not concerned with "Professional Restorers" because I collect only low grade pre-war; mostly T206 now. Respectfully Ted, why ruin a perfectly good VG DiMaggio and support a professional restorer? I embrace my VG (and lesser)cards with all the passion that is inside me and deeply appreciate the history of the issue and the physical signs of the particular cards journey to my hands. The Graders fear is not the Professional Restorers; it's the hobbyists and/or dealers greed they fear which promotes and enriches this type of service. There certainly seems to be a lot of high anxiety in the high end card hobby market, that I, for one, am glad I'm excluded from. RayB

Archive

11-30-2006, 06:47 AM

Posted By: DaveMy opinion....if you have a card professionally restored, then your just as guilty as the guy doing it. I understand Ted your not planning on getting the card graded. But at some point, it will leave your hands...be it alive or after your gone. And it's not justifiable for whoever owns that card next not to know the truth about it.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:06 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWith all due respect to you, Dave......I had this card restored back in 1988 by a close friend who restored paper type memoribilia as a hobby. He was very good at this, as is evident in this card. He stopped doing any restoration back in 1990. This card will follow me to my grave. I hesistated to even show it to anyone. It is in my 1941 Play Ball set (of which most of the cards are of this condition....unrestored). However, I thought that members of this Forum should be aware of the quality that many professional restorers are capable of.....and showing this card speaks louder than all the ranting going on this Forum lately regarding "amateur" altering of cards; and, who are the "bad guys". TED Z

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:14 AM

Posted By: Chris CountsI see nothing wrong with altering my own cards as long as I don't have the intention of misrepresenting them if I sold them. I have personally trimmed the rough edges off several of my punched-out Batter-Ups and miscut Wheaties panels so they display better. If I were to sell these cards, which is not my intention, I would disclose the trimming. And if the cards outlive me, well, I won't lose any sleep over it ...

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:14 AM

Posted By: DaveI understand your position to a point. I myself don't have the funds and never will for that matter to spend thousands of dollars on high dollar cards. I also understand you didn't do it for purpose of a profit, so I'm not coming down on you in that aspect. To me it just kind of relates to buying a car (I know not that best of examples). When you buy a car your able to check a VIN number....check for history of the car including wrecks (restoration).....that drops the price of the vehicle down. The same should apply to cards in a sense. The card may well be with you when you go to your grave, but unless its going in your grave with you, somebody will end up paying a premium for that card, just my two cents.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:16 AM

Posted By: Joe D.I completely disagree. If its your card / you can color it in with crayon, cut it into a star-shape, trim the edges, paste it to a book.... restore it.... whatever you want to do. Its all up to the owner. If it is something that might be hard to notice (restoration).... disclosure should be given.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:18 AM

Posted By: DaveThat is kind of troublesome to hear "I wont lose any sleep over it", if the next guy coming along after your dead pays $3500 for a card that may well be otherwise worth $250. Same as Ted, I'm not saying your out for a profit. But I also know that when people alter cards, the percentage of those that are going to state "hey this card was VG, but because of some touch ups its now near mint". I've very rarely if ever seen that stated.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:19 AM

Posted By: DaveOh I agree whole heartidly that you can do what you want with a card to damage it as you see fit. Put it between a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for all I care....that won't cripple a buyer that thinks he's getting something nearmint that really under the surface isn't. Restoration is different. If it were a perfect world and full disclosure was giving on cards that have been restored than fine.....they most likely wouldn't bring any premium prices...but it's not a perfect world, and what percentage of cards restored are actually defined as that when they come up for sale? No matter how much you love your cards, they aren't going in the ground with you...someone is going to own that card after your gone.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:22 AM

Posted By: DylanThis is why I believe that when grading cards that will sell for very large sums if graded high go through a more rigourous grading. A company will only go so far for 15 dollars. If you have a potential 10,000 dollar card that im purchasing i want more then 15 dollars of attention paid to it!

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellPresumably, SGC or PSA can tell this is a restored card and thus the card would have little value relative to the $10K price for a psa 8. If someone wants to restore their own cards fine but they are destroying value in the process.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:40 AM

Posted By: Tom BoblittI think that may be why the grading companies charge more for grading high $$ cards than low $$ cards. It SHOULD allow for more scrutiny. The actual encasement doesn't cost anything more, so the only explanation would/should be that they are looking more closely at the card to determine just such alteration possiblities. Judging from some of the comments on the other threads though, there are some HIGHLY skilled people out there who may be able to perform alterations on cards that are difficult to detect.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:42 AM

Posted By: PCThis is why we buy graded cards. On the internet, from a scan, that card seems ok. But SGC, PSA and GAI would all catch it. Now that we now it's an altered card, even on the net you can see that that the corners look built up, there's a ding or two on the top edge that has been repaired, and the remnants of two creases coming from the left border and hitting Joe just above and below the belt. While not apparent on the scan, with the right light and a slight tilt, if any color was added it would be easily detected (as would the corner repairs). That card would get by some trusting person on eBay, but not the reputable grading companies.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:43 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...several of those corners are as white as snow, if the scan is right.

Archive

11-30-2006, 07:44 AM

Posted By: DaveRestoring a card imo is no different than destroying a card's place in history. Is it really any different than the jackass card companies of today taking a Babe Ruth jersey and slicing it into little bits and selling them each attached to cards? There are only so many cards left today of the upper thousands that were produced in that time period, to destroy the integrity of the card is just plain wrong.

Archive

11-30-2006, 08:36 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI am not sure what you are seeing on my scan.......but, I will describe this card prior to it being restored. All 4 corners were very "rounded" and there was a crease across the card a thigh level. That was the extent of the degraded condition of the card when I acquired it 1987. It would have graded no better than a poor Vg. Whether this card would get passed a Grader, nowadays, will remain academic; as, I don't ever intend to submit it for grading. My point is that this restoration occured 18 years ago. Nowadays, there are professional restorers with new technology that can restore anything (much less BB cards) to such a high degree, that there is no way that Grading Co. with their present techniques can detect. It's done everyday in the Art world and in the Vintage Car restoration industry.....so what makes one think it's not possible with a little piece of cardboard ?

Archive

11-30-2006, 08:39 AM

Posted By: ScottIngoldTed, As i know you, I already know your answer..... But i would love for you to send that in. Just as an experiment. I really would like to see what it comes back as.

Archive

11-30-2006, 08:46 AM

Posted By: Jeff Prizner"My point is that this restoration occured 18 years ago. Nowadays, there are professional restorers with new technology that can restore anything (much less BB cards) to such a high degree, that there is no way that Grading Co. with their present techniques can detect." I like how you state that like it's a 100% certainty. As technology improves, restoration detection capabilities improve with it. If your restored Joe D card was in a PSA or SGC holder, then your argument would have a lot more validity and would turn some heads.

Archive

11-30-2006, 08:47 AM

Posted By: steve fTed, thanks for the post. I can now see (I believe) where the corners were built up and the crease was/is, paper loss at left pocket. Scary to imagine how far the technology has advanced in twenty years.

Archive

11-30-2006, 09:10 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsI've asked this before, but never received a response: What is so bad about removing a pencil mark from a card? I personally have never done it, because I'm sure I'd ruin the card further, but I'm having a tough time understanding how this is such an underhanded activity? Thanks for all opinions, Josh Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

Archive

11-30-2006, 09:18 AM

Posted By: NetJrDo you really think a professional grader putting the card under good magnification isn't going to see your friends handy work on restoration? I don't think that is possible? I've been naive about a lot of things but my guess is they will know.

Archive

11-30-2006, 09:35 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThere is no way they can detect today's restoration??? What is your basis for saying this Ted??? It is a certainty that PSA and SGC would pick up the restoration work. And after thought I will change my mind and agree with whoever said you are destroying vintage collecftibles by doing this and that it is analygous to cutting up Babe Ruth's jersey and putting it in packs of cards. Jim

Archive

11-30-2006, 09:54 AM

Posted By: Joe D.are the restorations obvious when you shine a black-light on it? I just ordered a black-light so that I can do some of my own detective work on stuff.

Archive

11-30-2006, 10:27 AM

Posted By: JimBTed said, "You Graded card dudes better be more concerned with the Professional Restorers, rather than the "amateurs" involved in altering cards." Judging from the exaggerated white corners in contrast with the rest of the boarders, that card would never make it into the holder of one of the reputable grading companies. Though I agree that Professional Restorers are the serious problem, I think the logic is a bit misplaced in this statement. It is the folks that would buy a raw mint DiMaggio that should be most concerned. It would be wisest for all of us to know the tell-tale signs and know the issues that we collect well. But for those who do not have the time or interest to do that, those who buy graded cards are much better protected in examples like the one given. JimB

Archive

11-30-2006, 10:32 AM

Posted By: SeanI would bet that SGC, PSA or GAI would be able to see that work was done. If I were to casually look at it I might miss it, but when it is your job to look for alterations I would think they could pick up on it. About advanced restoration technology to fool the graders I'm sure the grading companies are also continue to evolve and invent technology to catch this. Sean BH PS - Joe when you get the black light make sure to pick up some cool Zeppelin and Hendrix felt posters...Groovy Man!

Archive

11-30-2006, 10:49 AM

Posted By: warshawlawAt a time when the high end collectors are starting to feel like faith healers with appendicitis, I and my fellow trash collectors are enjoying the theater, particularly watching Verkman and Drent bitch-slap each other. In fact, I think we ought to use some of that big time banner money to have an N54 dealer, auctioneer and grader smack-off at the National dinner, judged by a panel of collectors. J/K <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But seriously, I agree that the real "threat" is not from Doug Allen's staff rubbing out a crease here and there, it is from qualified paper restoration experts cleaning, pressing and restoring cards. I am of conflicted feelings on this question. On the one hand, I am concerned that the allegations will diminish the value of all cards, especially because we have amateur graders trying to ferret out the work of professional artisans (until SGC, PSA and the rest have restoration experts on staff scrutinizing every significant card, they are trying to fight a fire with a water pistol). On the other hand, since I have never bought a high grade, super expensive prewar card and likely never will, to quote Robert Byrd, none of my dogs are in this fight. I will say this, however: I wonder if the participants in all of the flame fanning realize that the rank and file collector who is watching this is being turned off from collecting? I know of at least a few respected collectors (unlike me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) who are openly stating that this is the last straw and they may be liquidating their collections because real world stresses are intruding on their downtime hobby. Perhaps it is time to step back a bit and recognize that no one is sitting around repairing those vg T206 commons. All I can say is I've always preferred my old cards with some evidence of time on them; I like them more and more each day.

Archive

11-30-2006, 11:20 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis......."RIGHT - ON" guy......you are the Man. T-Rex TED

Archive

11-30-2006, 11:20 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK guys......I have received numerous emails about this '41 P/B Joe D.; and, asking me to bring to the Philly Show this w/e......I will consider this. As for submitting it to SGC or GAI (on-premise Graders), I'll consider that, too. I, person- ally, do not feel it will pass muster with either of these Graders. And, I say that just because 20 years ago (when it was restored) the "state of the art" in BB card restoration was in its infancy. I recall that there were only two guys in the hobby that were doing it in the late 1980's. One on the East coast and one on the West coast. The West coast guy was unbelievable, in that he could perfectly restore lettering on back-damaged cards. And, I am telling you that experts could not discern the difference. I have seen very recent examples of memoribilia restoration, and the workmanship is amazing.....and at the same time very "scary". T-Rex TED

Archive

11-30-2006, 11:29 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffTo detect the masterful restoration on that card one would need two things: 1. A black light. 2. Five seconds to wave the black light over the card in a dark room. When restoration is visible to the naked eye just from seeing a scan posted on the internet, it's certainly going to be detected by any grading company, unless you are sending it to CGI (Cataracts Grading, Inc.) Maybe that's why the hardcore raw-holes are so grumpy about graded cards. Maybe they just used the wrong company once and it soured them on the whole concept of grading. -Ryan

Archive

11-30-2006, 11:31 AM

Posted By: davidcyclebackMajor restoration, like building up of corners, is usually staightforeward to identify. It's a lot easier to identify than a ironed wrinkle. If a card is horribly damaged, like torn in half, even the top conservator can't fix it to be undetectable. With the naked eye, you will be able to see where the tear was. My neighbor was a professional painter and restorer, and I've checked out a number of his restored paintings. One he fixed after his grandson threw his shoe through it. The restoration is top notch, and the casual visitor won't notice anything, but you will see where it was restored if you look closely. Much of the restoration was major, ala repairing a hole where a kid threw a shoe through the middle ... He told me conservators have a tough time conserving Jackson Pollack paintings, because Pollack put cigarette butts and stuff in his paintings. It can be a challenge on how to conserve a cigarette butt. Interestingly, he collects 1700s British silver pitchers, much which has been restored. I asked him what he though of restoration on antique silver. He said, "Depends how good the restoration is."

Archive

11-30-2006, 12:18 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittwhen 'bitch slap' is in a thread. You just don't see that enough..... Thanks Adam....

Archive

11-30-2006, 05:19 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisADAM In my posts on this Thread I have been trying to impress what you so adeptly just stated in this paragraph of yours.....and it is worth repeating: "But seriously, I agree that the real "threat" is not from Doug Allen's staff rubbing out a crease here and there, it is from qualified paper restoration experts cleaning, pressing and restoring cards. I am of conflicted feelings on this question. On the one hand, I am concerned that the allegations will diminish the value of all cards, especially because we have amateur graders trying to ferret out the work of professional artisans (until SGC, PSA and the rest have restoration experts on staff scrutinizing every significant card, they are trying to fight a fire with a water pistol)." I couldn't have said it better myself. T-Rex TED