The (Base) Ball (card) Is In Our Court [Archive]

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11-25-2006, 05:52 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind If you can’t get rid of the skeleton in your closet you better teach it to dance William Shakespeare from The Tragedy of Richard II Collecting, or more appropriately the buying an selling of rare baseball cards, has long been a serious business. The top 12 hobby auctioneers sell in excess of $100 million dollars per year in sports memorabilia. Whilst it would be time consuming to ascertain what percentage of those sales are attributed to graded baseball cards, it is certainly in access of 50%. While there will always be debates and controversy when something so subjective as grading plays such an important role in determining price, we can, as a hobby, create a series of standards that we would ask the major grading companies and the top dealers and auctioneers to abide by. Furthermore, we can establish a Standards Review Board which includes a representative group of independent collectors, and, perhaps, experts from outside the baseball hobby to periodically review the efforts of the grading services and dealers to adhere (enforce) the standards. Although we do not have to go to the extremes of Sarbanes-Oxley, it is imperative for the future of the hobby that we establish rules and that said rules are enforced. All dealers would need to be certified. All violations would be reported. And we could even establish a series of fines.. The Fines would be used to enhance the quality standards. There is clearly too much room for “dancing with skeletons” If we don’t want to see ghosts in our own closets when it comes time to sell, we, as a hobby need to act. Our view is that the real power is not with the giant auction houses or one or two grading services but with the thousands of collectors who spend in excess of $250 million dollars buying and selling cards. Hopefully, we can also gain cooperation from senior management at E Bay as well as from the top auction houses and grading services. Your comments are welcomed Best, Bruce

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11-25-2006, 06:13 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Bruce, That is an interesting (and good) idea but you can't force PSA (or others) to accept or submit to a "monitoring" group or agency. First of all, you'd have to get support from all the PSA slabheads. I doubt that this will happen because they run the risk of having their precious collections of labels devalued. Second, how many tens of thousands of vintage cards have already been graded? The standards would only seem to apply to cards that haven't been graded. Now there's a thought. You try to convince everyone that cards, in holders without the "monitoring group" (ISO 900x, for example) signature of approval, are technically not graded and that they need to resubmit the cards. The grading companies would love that. I thought of this a while back but figured, although the "monitoring group" would have merit, it would be like a UN security force in a country where they're not welcome (by graders and slabheads alike). I certainly would agree that it would be nice to have one industry grading standard. It would be great if grading services were held accountable for their errors. Overall, I think cards should only be authenticated and the label should only have ranges on them or information indictating alterations. For example, it's ridiculous to think that one grader may grade a T206 an "8" and another a "7" because the price difference between those two grades could be relatively astronomical. I suppose that if someones dumb enough to buy the grade and not the true merits of the card, then so be it.

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11-25-2006, 06:21 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- all excellent points, and I agree both grading services and dealers should be held to the highest standards. As far as certifying sellers, I guess that would be good for a full time dealer, but what about the collector who just wants to throw a few duplicates on BST? Would he be banned from doing so? But I agree the grading services in particular need some work and the fact that each of the big three utilize slightly different standards is detrimental to the hobby.

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11-25-2006, 07:09 AM

Posted By: JayBarry--I also think Bruce makes a good point. I think the certification would be not be a necessity, just a plus for the auction house or dealer, like a Good Housekeeping seal.

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11-25-2006, 07:10 AM

Posted By: RhysI have said this about 10 times on this board and I guess I will make it 11. I still have no idea why our hobby does not have a collectors organization that self polices the way other collectibles do. It would be as simple as giving it a name like "The Association for Antique Sports Collectibles" and having someone with some sway starting it. Dues could be small and anyone who wishes to sell in a reputable market would join and adhere to certain principles and guidelines. It would also be self policing in regard to violations of ethics and dealers and big auction houses would be subject to to same level of scrutiny through the organization as a full-time ebay seller if a case for violations was brought before some type of a panel. Just about every other hobby has something like this that actually does something to try and maintain the integrity of their field, while Sports collectibles just get bad press after bad press in the media. From everything I have seen in other areas, this works pretty well. There is really only one hurdle to accomplishing this; you would need someone of Mastronet/Robert Edwards type of sway in the hobby to start the organization with some type of third parties (longtime collectors Like Terry Knouse etc.) to comprise the board and set the rules and then ask others to follow suit and join. Others would do so because they would look like they were dodging responsibility if they did not and in the cut-throat world of auction houses, integrity and who you trust is a big deal. Eventually every dealer would join if they wanted to assert any type of perception of honesty in the hobby and before you know it, its done. I have thought about starting something like this myself for years because it was obvious to me since 1988 that the hobby needed to organize somehow, but it would take some initial muscle to get it off the ground, muscle that only a few major auction houses or companies actually have in our hobby. I think if someone like Robert Edward auctions, mastronet, Steiner Sports, PSA, GAI, SGC etc were to help take the lead and really go for something like this, it would impact the entire hobby in a positive way, and give some good press attention to a hobby that needs to clean itself up in many ways. That is what I think anyways. Rhys Yeakley

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11-25-2006, 07:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateRhys- the National Convention would almost certainly be more than happy to set aside a conference room for dealers to discuss this proposal. But as you said, somebody has to take the initiative.

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11-25-2006, 08:38 AM

Posted By: whitehseHaving been around this hobby for 30+ years I seem to remember this has been tried many times. A national organization of dealers or something like that. I just dont think there was enough participation because I seem to remember there wasnt enough in it for dealers to make it worth their while. If collectors dont care of there is a COA from a collectors organization why would a dealer want to be included in this. I agree its a great idea and I would back it fully.......but a real hard look would have to be taken and make sure there is "want" for this type of thing because we know there is a need!

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11-25-2006, 09:13 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBruce, An excellent idea and one which I independently brought up and then saw your post--I think something along the lines of what you and I described is long overdue. Jim

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11-25-2006, 09:14 AM

Posted By: NetJrInteresting read and topic. The part I was intrigued is when you mentioned eBay. As one that has emailed in countless complaints and even met with mid level executives of the company I have to say there is "NO" chance of getting them to help a collectors organization. They will look out for their power seller no matter what they do wrong, they will never share data even it could clear a wrongfully accused seller \ buyer, and they barely enforce rules of listing titles and descriptions. They are such a mult "billion" dollar enterprise a $250 million a year commodity organization would probably be just as ignored as you, me and everyone else. Sad, very darn sad.

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11-25-2006, 09:27 AM

Posted By: Mark EvansIf this effort gets off the ground, I would be interested in discussing the possibility of a position with the new organization. I'm a retired Department of Justice lawyer with knowledge and experience in ethics and governmental processes (including legislation) and a love for the hobby. Mark

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11-25-2006, 09:38 AM

Posted By: bruce Dorskind My belief is if we are well organized and gain the agreement of the major auction houses and grading services and do not ask E Bay to undertake a cumbersome task, they wlll work with us. 1) You can only work throught people who report directly to Meg Whitman- at least two of whom, we have some access to two such executives. 2) We have to be buttoned up and demonstrate that we are a powerful group 3) We will need a professional PR firm to manage our efforts. The venture of organizating and monitoring the hobby and ensuring transparency on every transaction will cost real money. However, if we form a group, generate a pool of funds where everyone kicks in $100 or even $1000, we are buying security and integrity that will save us each thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in the years ahead. It is difficult to tell how much we would need to raise at this point in time...but it certainly will be in the six figure range. It is evident that the Collectors need to be organized and take back control of the hobby. No auction house, no matter how large, would want to fight against a professional public relations effort. This battle will present its own set of challenges. It will take some investment...but it will pay dividends for everyone in the end. Best, Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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11-25-2006, 09:42 AM

Posted By: JayI don't think that Ebay needs to be party to this. The Good Housekeeping seal is on the products sold in the store, not necessarily on the store itself. Make the "seal" available and dealers will choose for themselves whether they want to go to the effort of qualifying for it.

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11-25-2006, 10:23 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThis is all developing into an excellent idea... double slabbing. Once a card is slabbed, the collector could then send it in to this Master Review Oversight Committee. They in turn, slab the slab, and hopefully correctly identifying the card. Double slabbed cards would be great! They'd take up much more space, be double protected, regardless of what the original slab was the new holder would be of uniform size so all of the PSAs SGCs GIAs and the rest would now uniformly stack together. The trick would be to make sure you have just one Master Review Oversight Committee. If 2 or 3 sprang up, then we'd be right back where we (I mean you folks who like slabbed cards) are... and the only salvation would then be in triple slabbed cards. I can see 'em now, stacked in a briefcase, about 10 cards deep. Beautiful!

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11-25-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: leonDave Forman, managing partner from SGC, wanted me to post this for him: "In response to the suggestions made by Bruce, SGC would support fully any kind of competent graded card oversight review board. Let me remind every member of this board and every SGC customer, that our goal at SGC is to do a perfect job. If any member of the board has an SGC graded card that they sense may be altered or over graded, please bring it to our attention. As always, our written guaranty is in full effect, we stand behind every card that is in our holder. The future of our hobby depends on grading services adhering to industry standards and being as close to perfectly consistent as possible. SGC is more than happy to participate in any program that brings us closer to that goal. As a collector I encourage you to educate yourself more about how to grade cards and more importantly how to tell alterations. That being said, it is important to realize that erasing a pencil mark from the back of an old judge and trimming an e94 are two very different things." edited my own spelling (leon)

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11-25-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: jackgoodmanBruce, Great idea. Would love to see it happen. But it comes up for discussion every couple of years. Then dies again. I'm not normally a negative person - But it ain't gonna happen.

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11-25-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBack in the early 1990's some of the "big guys" in this hobby started the "SPORTS COL- LECTIBLES ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL" (SCA). We all thought it was a great idea so we joined. There was a $100 fee to join and many balked about that; however, it was suggested that if you didn't join you might not be able to participate in many of the myriad number of BB card Shows back then. Well, there were a lot of good intentions and benefits promised (too numerous to bore you with here); but, SCA was short-lived. I will bet most here don't even recall SCA. From reading the posts on this Thread, I can see a very similar pattern in this idea . Sorry guys, to be such a "kiljoy" regarding this. But, stop and give this some serious thought......many people in our hobby are just too independent to go along with this. And, those who aren't will only prove to be divisive. T-Rex TED

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11-25-2006, 11:16 AM

Posted By: whitehseAs a newbie here maybe its not my place to say this but if SGC is willing to participate in this idea are they willing to step up to the plate and get the ball?? maybe in terms of helping with start up costs?? Promoting this on their website?? How far are they willing to take this? I am not trying to take them on here but it was a serious question about how serious they are. I would love to be on this commitee but I see raising funds as the biggest issue to this whole idea?? Count me in as the voice of the limited budget collector!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-25-2006, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Personally, I dont think SGC has very much to worry about with an oversight/monitoring committee. I think that most of us accpet that SGC is a much more reliable service than PSA. PSA is from where the resistance will come. What about the cards that have already been encapsulated? You can have the grading services put the oversight/monitoring group seal of approval on the new labels. What does that mean for the cards that were encapsulated before the seals of approval were put on the labels? Again, the idea is great but...

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11-25-2006, 11:58 AM

Posted By: DJSo let me get this right? We get a card slabbed and then we send it off to get the slab graded? So basically what we are accomplishing is disagreeing with the original authenticator's grade? So a 5 may be a 4 or vice versa and we have to pay yet more on top of the original price of the purchase? In five years, we will perhaps be thinking about adding another layer of sorts. Plus, won't it be a tad biased if the people grading the graded cards are collectors and sellers themselves? I agree with much of what was said above as far as this being a pipe dream. There is way too much independence here and while it's never bad to get second opinions, I can only see a grand carnival the first time a grading card company disagrees a few points down. And what about a "certified" dealer being fined? I think he'll love that. There are certain organizations with the Autograph structure but it works to a certain degree, but who is anyone of us kidding, bad stuff gets passed along and it's tough to prove who is correct and who isn't correct. This is beginning to look like a tad like Orwell's "Animal Farm" and when the operation gets the first taste of the apples and milk, is when everything goes to hell. Perhaps. Perhaps I'm wrong. DJ

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11-25-2006, 12:07 PM

Posted By: WPI think the board would be aimed at concerned collectors such as Jim Crandell who simply want to be reassued that their 8's and 9s are really not trimmed and altered cards. Collectors such as Jim can pay for the serivce. If the idea caught on, the second seal of approval might ad to the value of the cards. It is clear that there is a need for something like this, due to scams such as Wiwag and the card alteration allegations.

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11-25-2006, 12:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf you put a slab inside another slab you may not be able to see the card. It's a little like Jerry Seinfeld's joke that he has put so many coats of paint on the walls his apartment is getting smaller. I know that in the past there have been efforts to organize a committee whose job it would be to clean up the hobby. But it never has come to pass. I think it's a great idea conceptually but one that may be difficult to put into practice. The dealers who are likely to join will be the ones who are most honest anyway, and the ones who don't are the ones we need to keep an eye on. You may argue not having this "seal" will hurt their business but they will still find ways to operate on the fringe.

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11-25-2006, 12:31 PM

Posted By: JayI think you folks are not understanding the point(or I don't understand what I think I understand). Companies who agree to comply with the guidelines set forth by the "group" would receive a "seal" that they could display in their ads, etc. There would be no regrading of graded cards. The "group" would simply develop sensible guidelines for the hobby that companies could agree (or not) to adhere to. For example, if it was decided that pressing out creases and not disclosing this in an auction write-up was wrong then, to get this "seal of approval" auction houses would have to agree to this level of disclosure. If the "group" decided that auction houses must disclose when then they have an ownership interest in lots in their auctions then agreement to this would be necessary to get the "seal of approval". I'm not proposing anything as being right or wrong, just trying to explain how I view the concept brought forth here. BTW, I think this group, if this ever gets legs, should be composed of representatives from the auction houses, from major dealers, and from collectors. Unlike Bruce I think there is no need for alot of money to get this started. This forum could be a great place to organize this and could provide alot of free publicity for the effort.

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11-25-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJay- just to play devil's advocate, couldn't somebody agree to all the accepted requirements, get his seal of approval, and then iron out creases until the cows come home. And who would be overseeing him? All of these ethical standards could be hard to enforce.

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11-25-2006, 12:57 PM

Posted By: JoannI think this is starting to lean toward a system-oversight approach. The hobby agrees to certain guidelines for graded cards. Like Jay said, I'm not thinking that each individual card would be subject for review - but the grading companies could get certified as following certain practices. Kind of like the ISO standards, but please please please not as much waste and not so many requirements with zero value (sorry, editorial comment on ISO 9000 there). If kept within the hobby, and kept very very simple, it could work. So the grading companies would get visited every so often by the committee, who would be looking for things like: Are they following a common (industry agreed-upon) grading standard? (Have you noticed that PSA and SGC do not have the same published requirements for cards at the same level? No wonder they are inconsitent.) Is the grading as anonymous as possible - graders do not know submittors? Are copies of the guidelines close at hand for graders? Are the graders trained, and is the training demonstrable? Is there readily available senior help for a grader that is in between on a decision? Does the company abide by the hobby/committee guidelines on what practices constitute alterations (pressing, etc) instead of setting their own internal guidelines? Are there people with expertise specifically in the area of fakes and alterations that look at each card, in addition to the "condition" graders? Is there a process to make sure that the card gets matched up with the right flip? Etc etc. If the grading companies follow these practices, and others, they would earn the ability to display a seal or logo in their ads. The role of auction houses, and even general hobbyists, would be to preferentially use grading services that had met these requirements. Then let the market forces take care of it. As to cards graded before any type of system is in place ... let the market take care of that too. If an oversight program works, then cards graded prior to the program would have lesser value, and the owners would probably resubmit so the holder would carry the logo/seal. If the cards weren't different in value, then the oversight program would not be perceived to add value, not be perceived to "work" and would probably be abandoned. Just my two cents worth - but I like the self-policing, outside review of practices by a board of hobbyists a lot better than any kind of legal regulatory scheme. Joann

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11-25-2006, 01:04 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliMost industries have an association that helps guide it and set its standards. I think it's been tried in this hobby as well. The problem, to my understanding, has been that it's impossible to get everyone agree to a single set of standards. Just look at the variety of opinions on this board as to what constitutes a "3". Look at the number of people on this board that reject the concept of third-party grading to begin with. Hell, look at what happened when some guys tried to agree on a place to have DINNER. A few months ago, Jim Crandell brought up the subject of the term "alteration" and tried to take votes on whether certain practices constituted an alteration. Even in the last day, it's been said that taking out wrinkles is okay, provided the wrinkle doesn't compromise the paper. It's also been said that it's okay to erase "light" pencil, but not heavier pencil. Who becomes the arbiter of whether a mark is "light"? Or whether a crease has or hasn't compromised the paper? While an advisory board is a great idea, I don't think it should be a place where everyone can go to bitch about their grades, or to besmirch someone's reputation. I think it should be a small group of collectors and dealers that establishes a clear set of standards and a clear set of best practices when it comes to buying, selling, and grading cards (and when I use the term "grading cards", I don't mean determining what differentiates EX from EX-MT, I mean the actual PRACTICE of doing it - how it's done, in what sort of environment, with what sort of safeguards, and what sort of customer service). It would provide, after an evaluation, a "seal of approval" to a set of business practices. Then, if an individual was subject to a situation where that set of business practices was violated, and they were unable to get satisfaction from the buyer/seller/grading company, then they could approach the advisory board with a case, as sort of an independent mediator. I think that handling it any other way, it would immediately get overloaded with "I paid too much for this overgraded 5, and I want the grading company or auction house to give me my money back" and never get anything done. -Al

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11-25-2006, 01:13 PM

Posted By: Joann"Just look at the variety of opinions on this board as to what constitutes a "3". Look at the number of people on this board that reject the concept of third-party grading to begin with. Hell, look at what happened when some guys tried to agree on a place to have DINNER." hahahaha. Al - now THAT was friggin' (@ tbob) funny. Thanks for the laugh. Your fourth paragraph is similar to what I was getting at, but adds buying and selling to the scope. But your emphasis that attention is paid to the PRACTICE of grading, not the theory of it, is right on. J

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11-25-2006, 01:21 PM

Posted By: WPWhy not have a board look at the finished product, that is what is important.

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11-25-2006, 01:21 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJoann, it looks like you and I were typing at the same time. But ISO is exactly what I was thinking of when I posted my message. I'm with you and your post 100%. -Al

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11-25-2006, 02:00 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhile all areas of sports memorabilia needs policing- autographs, uniforms, game used equipment, etc., let's for the sake of discussion stick to baseball cards. In this arena we actually have a form of policing, and that is the major grading companies. Unfortunately, each has somewhat different standards, all to some degree make mistakes, and an incredible amount of money rides on the slightest grading nuance. As I've previously used in an example, put a high end 7 and a weak 8 of the same card on ebay and witness the great discrepancy in prices, and yet each card is probably the same. The best thing that ever happened to the baseball card hobby was the third party grading system, but it has brought with it so much extra baggage that it is just as much a part of the problem as it is part of the solution. And because the major services are in competition, and stiff competition at that, we would never get them to adhere to identical grading standards. Any suggestions?

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11-25-2006, 02:13 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliBarry, I touched on this above - I agree with you. There's no way to get grading companies to agree on grading standards, any more than we can get two collectors in a room and have them agree on whether a card is "VG" or "G-VG". The agreement needs to be on business practice. What kind of tools/training do they give their graders, what kind of experience is required, what reference materials do they use, what kind of environment do they grade cards in? What's the QC procedure, how are the cards slabbed, how do they respond to customer inquiries or problems, what kind of guarantee do they have in place. And, most importantly, what do they do when a customer issue arises. The subtle differences in grading standards are one of the things that give both of the reputable grading companies in this hobby their niche. Tough to establish a standard that makes them both the same would be a difficult thing to get them to agree to. -Al

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11-25-2006, 02:50 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI think those who want to include the grading companies in this(and ebay) are on the wrong track. It should be aimed solely at those who deal in cards. My idea is very similar to the one that Jay outlined-- there would be a set of business practices that dealers would agree to follow to get a collectors seal of approval on what they were allowed to do and not do to cards. They could then advertise it in their ads that they have this. It would hurt the business of those that did not have it. There would be a group who would award this gold star to such dealers. Should it be alleged that certain dealers were not following these practices the gold star would be removed for a period of time. I think this group should be made up solely of collectors who would agree to serve for a set period of time. Jim

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11-25-2006, 02:55 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJim, You want to tarnish a dealers reputation becasue someone alleges that he has "bad" practices. For example I think Mastro uses to much pressure on his creases take away the star, how rediculous.

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11-25-2006, 02:56 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)First and foremost these third party grading services should be concerned with identifying FAKES/REPRINTS and ALTERED cards. They seem to do a decent job about detecting FAKES/REPRINTS. It appears that the services could do a better job of detecting alterations. I believe that these grading services should indicate that the card is AUTHENTIC and then give a grading range to the card. If the card is what they feel is NRMT then give it a "7"-"9" window. If someone wants to pay a huge price for the card then they are willing to accept the fact that the range is "7"-"9". This would reduce the incidents of resubmissions. It will also make the buyer take a very close look at what they are purchasing and then they can't (completely) blindly rely on the grading service. Cards that are in the lower end can have a "1"-"2" range. The same principles apply. If the card is that bad then the buyer can decide how bad is bad. If the card is altered then the label should indicate ALTERED and the nature of the alteration. Now, deciding what is an alteration may be interesting because everybody can't seem to agree. It's democracy at its best. ISO 900x certifications cost a bit of money. A lot of those certifications rely heavily on documentation (how it's tracked, modified, etc.). Those certifications are not cheap. Are collectors willing to absorb the extra costs that grading services are going to rack up by maintaining that certification? I suppose one could create their own certification group but then another could/would pop up and the next thing you know we have the WBA, WBC, WBF, WWF - you get the picure....

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11-25-2006, 03:00 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWallyPost, That is exactly the point of this. If dealers do not agree to abide by a certain set of standards they would not get the collectors seal of approval. Should it be proven that they are violating the agreed upon standards they would lose this seal of apprpoval for a period of time. The whole point of this is to try to stop the alteration of cards that most collectors view as unacceptable. Jim

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11-25-2006, 03:02 PM

Posted By: AnonymousIsn't it the job of PSA and SGC not to grade these cards.

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11-25-2006, 03:17 PM

Posted By: DJIsn't this operation really about protecting the big $$$$ cards, the 8's, 9', and 10's for those who have a lot invested into cards? It isn't so much (IMO) about the T206 PSA4 common as much as it is about perhaps them (big $$ collector) having one of three examples of say a C14 Cobb in PSA9 shape. That card in their possession being jeopardized by say a PSA9 that may have some alteration of some sort and felt that perhaps a major grading card company may have let it go? So SGC gives it a 96 and you look at it and perhaps see the formation of a wrinkle that disappered, then what? You give it a a quick downgrade? So now it's a 96/60? As a person who refuses to pay $15K for a PSA9 Goudey common or even come close to that amount for anything, the service is meaningless to me. I think SGC does a magnificent job so why should I get a second opinion on a C14 Zach Wheat graded SGC30? Or am I just completely off base here as this thread has so many various opinions that I think the original idea and it's honest contributions may be missed to me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> DJ

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11-25-2006, 03:19 PM

Posted By: WPWho says you have to get your Zach Wheat looked at again? I would see this utilized mostly for high grade high dollar cards

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11-25-2006, 03:50 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think this discussion really is about high end cards only, because the difference in value between a 2 and 3 or a 3 and a 4 is negligible, and if you ironed a crease out of a $25 card it might become a $20 card. This is all about protecting the people who are paying thousands of dollars per card for their registry sets. We are theoretically talking about ethical practices, but in the end it is about dollars and cents.

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11-25-2006, 03:59 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI think that is the case as well, to basically protect the investments of the big $$$$ collectors, which most certainly exludes me. In saying that, Bruce says: "However, if we form a group, generate a pool of funds where everyone kicks in $100 or even $1000" Why would any of us do this if we aren't the target audience (which makes up a large majority of us) and this will only reward the interests of the big $$$ collectors, a fairly small group? "Here's a $100 to your goal of help preserving something I'm no part of!" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm not knocking the idea. I'm not saying it's stupid. I'm simply saying it doesn't do anything for me and IMO will further complicate things with varying opinions. Hey, where's Jay Behrans on this? Where is his two cents? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> DJ edit: major grammar issues.

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11-25-2006, 04:07 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI don't get that this is for the high end collector. It establishes a set of standards in the hobby that all dealers will be incentivized to adhere to. The buyer of a psa 5 has the same assurances backing up his purchase as a PSA 8. Jim

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11-25-2006, 04:19 PM

Posted By: WPJim, Your idea is pointless and just a way for collectors to take shots at dealers they do not like. How do you prove a dealer has altered a card in a way that the "board" disapproves of?

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11-25-2006, 04:25 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisA big DITTO from me for your "tongue-in-cheek" comments on this subject in your post (1:23 PM). OJ-Collector you just "hit the nail" squarely on its head with your comments. Jim C....with all due respect....a PSA 5 card (with a typical cost of under $100 is in no-way comparable to a PSA 8 card which is, nowadays, is typically $500 to $1000's (depending on player and vintage). Who are you kidding in trying to sell this idea ? TED Z

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11-25-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: jay wolt"It establishes a set of standards in the hobby that all dealers will be incentivized to adhere to." I have no problem with this but instead of "dealers" lets use the tem "sellers" as there are a ton of sellers on eBay that aren't dealers just guys looking to flip their cards for a profit or some dumping cards to help fund other purchases. It seems that everyone I know sells their cards for a # of reasons so all should be held accountable, not just the full time dealer...jay

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11-25-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliWP, there's nothing whatsoever about Jim's idea that is pointless. You've jumped into this thread and done little except taken potshots at Jim, when he's raising very valid points and offering constructive ideas on how to rectify what many collectors perceive to be a problem. The thread in the first place was started by someone other than Jim. How about taking your agenda somewhere else, or offering something constructive instead? I'm sure you have an opinion that doesn't involve trashing Jim, right? -Al

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11-25-2006, 05:04 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI've been criticized recently for some of these views, but basically here's where I come out on this: (1) This Board is the closest thing to a consumer policing mechanism for vintage baseball cards -- it does a very nice job of ferreting out criminals, crooks and grading company flubs; and (2) SGC already provides a money back guarantee for overgrades. Why do you need anything else? If you are the proud owner of a trimmed PSA 8 T206 Tommy Leach portrait, and your card is trimmed, your beef is with the grading company -- if PSA will not provide a money back guarantee for the market value of the mistake, then how can you trust (hundreds of) thousands of dollars in those grades. For the umpteenth time, the biggest problem facing this industry are the collectors that have already invested (hundreds of) thousands of dollars into high grade PSA product that is not backed by a money-back guarantee. If you have an entire set of PSA graded T206 cards in high grade, why would you ever subject yourself to an independent review of those cards? You only stand to lose (hundreds of) thousands of dollars. So, you all know my points already, but in my opinion, unless you go with a third-party grading company that stands behind their grade to recompense for lost value (e.g., SGC), then you are nowhere.

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11-25-2006, 05:13 PM

Posted By: barrysloateEveryone of course wants to see the industry conduct itself ethically, but it is so hard to enforce anything that all will comply with. You might be able to enforce standards that all dealers who set up at the National must abide by, but how on earth could you expect the same standards to prevail on ebay, which is still the wild west and is infested with people who are trying to make a fast buck. There have been a lot of good ideas suggested on this thread but all would be very difficult to implement.

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11-25-2006, 06:29 PM

Posted By: WPAl, As a matter of fact I do have an opinion not invoving Jim. The marketing director of Coke should not have a can of Pepsi on his desk.

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11-25-2006, 06:33 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliWell, okay, then. That's a good opinion and I appreciate you sharing it with us. I agree. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> -Al

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11-25-2006, 06:35 PM

Posted By: WPSorry that was low.

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11-25-2006, 07:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWally Post--what is your real name--is that it? Why are you attacking me? You have done it before too? I am endorsing Jay Miller's idea 100%. Al--Thank You--us LTS and ex-LTS guys have to stick up for each other(ha ha). If that few people perceive there is a problem with what dealers are doing to cards and that collectors should not do anything--fine--I can pursue things on my own or with a few collectors who do care. But if there is one thing I am sure of--it is that there is a problem. Jim

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11-25-2006, 07:15 PM

Posted By: WPIts no attack on you, I just think the idea is flawed.

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11-25-2006, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI know Leon disagrees on this topic and nothing is going to change, but it sucks to be criticized (if not attacked) by someone using an alias login. Why can't people use their real names, are you ashamed of them?

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11-25-2006, 08:14 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellPeter, I don't think Leon will allow personal attacks without the real name disclosed--maybe he feels our friend Wally Post is on the edge--his explanation is bs. Jim

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11-25-2006, 08:57 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesIf it is ok to press out wrinkles/creases in vintage cards, why do anything else? I mean take one week to practise on Topps. Then do some Goudey commons. Buy them, decrease them, resubmit them, sell them. Use the profit to finance buying HOFers for decreasing. And in no time you will be earning $50K per week. Add it up - a two notch bump in grade. You can do six per hour easy. So, you put in full 4 hour days. Thats two dozen HOFers bumped two grades per day! And it is legit, the auction houses say. So why do anything else?