Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians [Archive]

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11-14-2006, 10:21 AM

Posted By: runscottPretty amazing - I bought this cap along with another one with a 'c' and the actual uniform that went with them. I later sold the cap separately, and now Mastro has magically turned what used to be a local team cap with a 'c' into a Clevenland Indians game-worn cap....nice trick. BTW - this cap was used by a team sponsored by a shoe repair shop...hardly the Cleveland Indians. <a href="http://mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=66955&CurrentRow=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=66955&CurrentRow=1</a>

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11-14-2006, 10:23 AM

Posted By: Daveuh oh

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11-14-2006, 10:29 AM

Posted By: JayLew Lampson may have some splanin to do

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11-14-2006, 11:02 AM

Posted By: JKJust wondering if you've emailed Mastro and what their response was.

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11-14-2006, 11:05 AM

Posted By: ScottIngoldSeems like after the REA email. People will be more detective like when going throught the auctions. It should be interesting to see what shakes out. What with the afermentioned email regarding Maestro. Does this get filed in the questionable ethics bin ? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-14-2006, 11:06 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWill I have to pay the full 20% BP for this one?

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11-14-2006, 11:13 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI wouldn't lay the blame on Mastro for this one...this is all Lou Lampson and the owner of the item. Scott do you remember who bought this cap from you? I recall bidding on some baseball caps you had put on ebay a while back, but I don't remember if this was one of them.

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11-14-2006, 11:40 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Scott, Do you have a few more caps for sale. I was looking for one with an NY insignia, perhaps one that could have fit Babe Ruth's head, if it looks like a Yankee hat from the 20's then that would be a great bonus.

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11-14-2006, 12:05 PM

Posted By: runscottRoostersports bought it from me on ebay. No, I didn't contact Mastro. A friend spotted this cap in the Mastro auction and recognized it as the one I sold, so I'm reporting it here. You guys are much more concerned about ethics than any of the auction houses.

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11-14-2006, 12:45 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenBased on the information provided here we will pull the item for additional research. Let me confirm a couple things here. Dan Knoll who is probably the foremost authenticator when it comes to vintage game used material indicated he was very comfortable with the cap due to the following things: #1 It is exactally the same from a style perspective as that used by the Cleveland Indians. #2 It is of "pro quality" and #3 it came from the era identified. To his knowledge when it was pointed out to him on eBay there was no mention of it being a "club" cap. I would love to see the eBay write-up if anyone can provide it. I agree if the ad clearly stated that it came with that provenance that is a huge problem. At this point we will pull it and see what we can find out.

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11-14-2006, 01:11 PM

Posted By: runscottWell Doug, I don't remember what all was in my original ad, but it certainly didn't say it was a game-worn Cleveland Indians cap.

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11-14-2006, 01:33 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenScott I am sure you didn't sell it indicating it was Cleveland. My question is if you had provenance indicating the cap was from a "club" team did you disclose this and did the provenance accompany the lot?

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11-14-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIf you remove/rewrite the LOA and rewrite the description, you can still auction it. Say it's not an Indians cap, but is a vintage original Spalding cap that is they same style as the Indians used. A vintage Spalding Cleveland Indians-style cap.

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11-14-2006, 01:54 PM

Posted By: runscottYes, I always disclose everything I know about an item. I said that the cap was originally purchased with a uniform and another cap, that the "c" on both caps was exactly the same, but that the one you are selling appeared to be older than the other cap and uniform - I based this on the 8-panels, thinking it was 1915-20. Mentioning the above in your auction would in my opinion be reasonable. You could then mention that it was similar to the type used by the Cleveland Indians at the time (dark with a 'c' on it).

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11-14-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenThanks Scott....did you disclose the fact it was from a club team sponsored by a shoe repair company? That is the provenance that is key to it not being a Cleveland gamer. Otherwise let me tell you I pulled the cap it is a high quality Spalding cap that sure appears professional quality. Let me know

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11-14-2006, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Joe K.Doug- You stated "...That is the provenance that is key to it not being a Cleveland gamer." But where is the provenance that is key TO IT BEING a Cleveland gamer??? So it would seem Mastro started with the premise that this was a Cleveland cap, and minus any provenance refuting that, decided to stick with that assumption. Is that how authenticating works? (sorry for the sarcasm <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) Does it matter that much whether or not there was mention of it being a club cap? There was also no mention of it being a Cleveland Indians cap. It would seem the main basis of it being a Cleveland Indians cap is that the stylized ‘C’ matches that of Cleveland from the same period. Isn’t it reasonable to assume many town, school, collegiate or non-pro teams could have used a black wool cap with the same letter ‘C’ on it. Without provenance it would seem there is little basis to assume this is Cleveland and misleading to call it “Cleveland Indians Circa 1920 Game Worn Spalding Baseball Cap”. It could be Cleveland, it could just as easily not be. I think David and Scott's compromise on the lot wording sounds very reasonable and would make all comfortable with this lot. Just my two cents...Thanks! -Joe

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11-14-2006, 02:38 PM

Posted By: runscottWOW!!!! You mean I had an ENTIRE Cleveland Indians uniform, along with TWO caps!?!?! Now I'm just feeling sick <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-14-2006, 03:06 PM

Posted By: Steve DawsonJust my two cents here, but could the "town club" have obtained old/used authentic caps from the Cleveland Indians, to later use themselves? Steve

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11-14-2006, 03:24 PM

Posted By: runscottHere are the ebay descriptions - make of them what you will. Bidders on the 'cap' auction were referred to the uniform and other cap. I've attached the ebay auction photo for the uni, since it's no longer available - no, I didn't actually write the words 'shoe repair' in the auction description, but it's readable in the auction photo. In any event, it clearly DOES NOT say "Cleveland". Now you have everything that I have access to, so no point in me saying anything further - it would just be useless debate. <img src="http://oldsplice.homestead.com/files/Spald01.JPG"> <img src="http://oldsplice.homestead.com/files/Spald09.JPG"> Circa 1915-20 Spalding 8-panel Spalding Baseball cap Rare 8-panel wool baseball cap, dark blue with two-layer felt 'C' (white "C" sewn onto a dark blue "C" which is tough to see). Nice used condition with Spalding label and supple but worn leather band inside. Heavy, solid construction - pictures do not do this hat justice. I picked this up with the Spalding uniform currently on ebay, but had planned to keep it, as I believe it is a hat from the same team but that went with an older uniform. Circa 1920 Spalding uniform with Spalding cap Nice early example of a Spalding baseball uniform, probably 1920's. Nice Spalding label, name-tag gone, original pearly black buttons (irregular, probably shell?), blue and pink pinstripes with blue braid trim. Wool shirt with no holes. Used to have front lettering, but only faint shadowy remains. 31" from back of collar to bottom of tail, 21" across from pit to pit. Pants also have nice Spalding label, measure 31" long, tunnel belt-loop, two original plastic buttons and metal fastener, nice condition with one knee tear repair. Cap is cotton with two-layer felt 'C' (dark blue on white), front of cap pushes over bill - I've seen pictures of this type cap, but first I've ever owned. Nice used condition with Spalding label and supple but worn leather band inside. Socks are purple and grey, and well-used - ancient all-wool stirrup (no elastic), about 28" long.

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11-14-2006, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenSorry Joe you are missing my point. When this cap stands on its own...being of high quality, being from the era and matching an existing style it can be attributed to the Cleveland Indians as it was. As I indicated an independant authenticator confirmed to me this is not much of a stretch. If you look at the original post here Scott indicates I quote "Mastro turns a town ball cap into the Cleveland Indians"....this insinuates that Mastro or our consignor had knowledge that this cap was from a "town ball club". If this is the case shame on the consignor or Mastro Auctions. If this is not the case than Mastro did not turn the ball into anything. We formulated what independant experts believe to be a reasonable conclusion.

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11-14-2006, 03:30 PM

Posted By: Doug AllenTook so long to post my response did not see Scott's post with descriptions and images. I agree with you Scott the consignor could have easily looked at your other auction and concluded that the Cap was most likely from a town team. Thanks for pointing it out and it has been pulled from the auction.

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11-14-2006, 03:33 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAnyone feel like spending more than $100 on an "authentic" cap or uniform from Mastro (or any other auction house) in the future?

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11-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Posted By: WesleyNo thanks. As many issues as we have in the card collecting hobby, I think the game used memorabilia hobby is infinitely worse. I don't know who Lou Lampson is and what his qualifications are, but to have an expert authenticate an item that turns out to be something completely different is something I would prefer not to deal with. I cannot understand how anyone can be comfortable spending large sums of money on game used uniforms or equipment.

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11-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThat's why documented provenance is nice. If it is established that a Tigers cap came from the estate of a player or team employee or even a 1910s Tigers season ticket holder, that is nicer than it being discovered in a dumpster in Fon Du Lac.

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11-14-2006, 04:01 PM

Posted By: Joe K.Thanks Doug. I understand your points. But in my opinion, it does not stand on it’s own without any provenance. I am sure Mastro had no knowledge of it being from a town ball club, and authenticated it based on the 3 points you mentioned…..but for me that is too much of a stretch and not a reasonable enough conclusion for me to bid on it…just my IMO. For me, I need provenance – without any provenance there are other “non-Cleveland” conclusions that can be drawn that are just as likely and reasonable. In this case you have now concluded that the Cap was most likely from a town team. Will this cause you to re-evaluate how you authenticate items, and by whom? IMO these independent authenticators take too big of a “leap of faith” than they want all of us to believe – as in this case it was too much of a stretch. Thanks -Joe

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11-14-2006, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethExpert texpert.

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11-14-2006, 04:31 PM

Posted By: jeff drumI would be very uncomfortable spending any significant sum of money on any game-used item from early baseball that did not come directly from a player's estate or next of kin. Didn't we have a similat type of thread about game used bat authenticating earlier this year?

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11-14-2006, 04:42 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThis illustrates the significance of provenance in authentication. With no provenance the cap was called a Cleveland Indians cap. With provenance, the cap was identified as not being a Cleveland Indians cap. The physical cap authenticates itself only as a perdiod Indians-style Pro Model cap.

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11-14-2006, 04:52 PM

Posted By: martindl Jeff, you asked "Anyone feel like spending more than $100 on an "authentic" cap or uniform from Mastro (or any other auction house) in the future?" My answer - from Mastro? A qualified yes. With a Lou Lampson letter? Absolutely not. If Mastro starts relying on Lampson as an authenticator many, many game used and memorabilia collectors will just not bid. Way too many questionable authentications. Lampson may indeed be good, but thats not his reputation to many in that community.

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11-14-2006, 04:55 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo if he has a lousy rep in the community, shouldn't Mastro - you know, the company that had to increase its BP to 20% in order to continue to treat its customers at the highest level in terms of authenticating its wares - have protected us? Or is it just about the bottom line, buyer beware?

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11-14-2006, 05:31 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethFrom what Doug posted it sounds like they were relying on Dan Knoll as well as Lampson, at least internally -- although it appears he may have been wrong on this one too. I don't think anyone is acting in bad faith here, given that most of these calls are judgment calls based on circumstantial evidence, it's really a question of what your starting point is and what the burden of proof is. Varying the starting presumption and burden of proof can greatly affect the outcome.

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11-14-2006, 05:40 PM

Posted By: leonThe cap has been pulled. I am glad I don't collect memorabilia and auto's. In threads like this I do want to know who each person is.... edited to say Joe just contacted me with contact info via email....that's all I needed....thanks again....

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11-14-2006, 05:49 PM

Posted By: Joe KirschnerSure Leon. No problem - I understand. My name is Joe Kirschner. I have posted a few times in the past, but I am mostly a lurker. I am friends with many members of the VBC, including Dan Bretta, Scott and others. I don't collect too much cardboard...mainly vintage memorabilia these days. Here is a link to my site... <a href="http://www.geocities.com/vintagesportscollector/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/vintagesportscollector/</a> BTW - I am the "friend" who alerted Scott to his "Cleveland" cap being on Mastro. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -Joe

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11-14-2006, 06:23 PM

Posted By: BryanI would love to know how Lou authenticated this. <a href="http://www.100percentauthentic.com/CertList.asp?SearchStr=madonna" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.100percentauthentic.com/CertList.asp?SearchStr=madonna</a>#

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11-14-2006, 06:44 PM

Posted By: runscottYes, Joe's a friend of mine who was the first collector I ever consulted about old uniforms (and I still do). Joe and I both collect vintage "no-name" stuff, which meant we never had to deal with the dirty world of "game used".

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11-14-2006, 06:45 PM

Posted By: joeI can only say that Lou has been around for about 25 years selling uniforms and game used items at shows and through advertising. He always had tons of uniforms at the shows in Michigan. I never collecting uniforms so i don't know him personally. Joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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11-14-2006, 07:58 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackSometimes, the consignor gets most of the blame.