Deleted auction thread [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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10-22-2006, 12:45 AM

Posted By: leonGuys- I deleted the auction thread of Charlie's as there was some erroneous information in it. It is this boards policy to let threads go if folks put their names or well known ID's by their posts. Ya'll can have at it again as long as you put your name by it. I will again warn everyone that what you say on this board you can be held legally liable for. IF someone accused me of something I didn't do I very well might seek legal action, especially if it hurt my business. With all that said everyone can post what they want per the board rules....though I would prefer to let it drop. Post away....regards

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10-22-2006, 12:49 AM

Posted By: RichardLeon - for those of us who were following the thread you deleted and were perhaps swayed by what was previously said, which part was erroneous?

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10-22-2006, 12:56 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI would like to know what was erronious too. I didn't notice any anon posts, but then there may have been one since the last time I looked. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 01:00 AM

Posted By: leonJay- you may post anything you want in order to rat someone out. I will not let the one who starts the allegations erase their initial post. That, more than the erroneous info (mainly my scan I erased), set me off. If you start it stay with it....Post away..

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10-22-2006, 01:17 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI stayed with it until the main people that were involved in the whole thing were posting. My orignal post was simply a copy of the email and asking if others thought there were problems with the linked auctions. I deleted it and the email was reposted by someone else. I don't see the problem as the main thrust of the original still existed on the thread. You could have emailed me and asked me to repost it if that was your problem. I would have gladly reposted it since there were some things posted that probably needed to be brought out in the open. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 01:18 AM

Posted By: leonIf you feel so strongly it needs to be in the open then put your name next to it, leave your name by it, and post it....I don't care..Good night...

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10-22-2006, 01:30 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI really doubt the second time around we are going to get the same responses. If Charlie, Brian of Greg want to restart the thread, it's up to them. They are the principles. I used to have a lot of respect for even with all the head butting we've done, but you lost a little of it, not that you really care. I'm pretty sure of that. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 01:39 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthHow am I a principal? I only posted the links I had been sent after Charlie decided to toss my name in this and start trouble. I think that Charlie should be explaining some of the lots in his auction rather than attacking people.

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10-22-2006, 01:43 AM

Posted By: jay behrensCharlie named you and Brian as the people behind the email that was circualted to various board members. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 01:44 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthThat is not the only thing Charlie is not telling the truth about.

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10-22-2006, 01:45 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJay, Greg has said privately he had nothing to do with the email. So until the truth is revealed I will apologize to him for mentioning his name. I was told that by some people but they could have wrong. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 02:15 AM

Posted By: B.C.DanielsI stated I had nothing to do with it. Just because I was aware of it and know Greg and teased you about it does not mean it derived from me. Apart from that,I will stand my other responses and replies to your comments. I am not a card dealer and this is not my "life" thus I have no motive to barely care about what you do short of threatening me by calling at 10:30 tonight! I told you my daughter was using my cell phone and you ignore this and call me multiple times over the past two days. send me my property back. thanks!

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10-22-2006, 05:00 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI have no idea what this is about just because I go to bed early. All the good stuff happens in the middle of the night. Don't you guys ever sleep?

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10-22-2006, 05:46 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI am also clueless... but would love a "summary" of the whole thing if possible, please.

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10-22-2006, 06:32 AM

Posted By: Steve M.Ditto

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10-22-2006, 06:40 AM

Posted By: leonThere has been an anonymous email floating around that has links to some ebay auctions and another board members auctions in the same email. The links are supposedly damning evidence, about trimming and/or alterering, which I am not so sure about. Might be, might not be. Jay B posted them last night, started a fight, then erased the initial post. I am not sure of the analogy but sort of like going to court with evidence, leaving the evidence, then leaving court. I didn't care for that. IF you start something with others then you need to not erase what you started. I told everyone to re-post if they wanted to. Because of that now Jay B has lost respect for me. I will never be the same. I got the same anonymous email privately and deleted it, a few days ago. Hope this helps....

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10-22-2006, 06:56 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK, I gather someone says Charlie is selling cards that MAY have been altered in some manner. But I presume they are slabbed cards (knowing Charlie and his auctions) and that any "funny stuff" may have happened before the cards were consigned to him? OR... there may NEVER have been any funny stuff in the first place? Was Charlie given the right to explain or clarify? Or was the evidence so "bogus" that it wasn't needed?

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10-22-2006, 07:10 AM

Posted By: ScottIngoldI really hate when one of the good guy's gets slammed here. I would love to see this email with the damning evi.

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10-22-2006, 07:52 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI got several copies of that email, but deleted it. I guess I should have looked at it.

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10-22-2006, 08:33 AM

Posted By: jay behrensLEon, I have not lost all respect for you, jsut a smidge. Basic synopsis of the original thread. I posted a copy of the email asking for opinions on what others thought. The most damning evidence being a Crofts Candy Young that looked like a wrinkle was pressed out and stray ink spots or whatever they were being removed. Charlie posted saying the wrinkle was still in the card and admited that he cleans cards (erase pencil adn ink) remove stains and other things, but said he didn't alter, trim or color cards. I deleted my taking Charlie at his word and had a note for Leon to delete the thread. Between the time I did that and checking again, an exchange had gone on between Charlie, Greg and BcD. My original post we reposted by somoene, so it was still there, just not at the begining. At that point, since the original post was back on the thread, I removed the request for the thread removal because I felt with all the relavent facts back on the thread, it was worth keepig up. I guess since the original post was no longer at the top, Leon had a problem with that. Just wish he had emailed me first, I would have put it back up. Needless to say, there were interesting accusations tossed back and forth between Charlie and Greg, and BcD, who all made some interesting points and claims that should have remained. Leon also chimed in with something, but he already edited out scan mentioned earlier in this thread. Then Leon deleted the thread and started this one. I've been here long enough that everyone that reads on a regular basis should know that I will stand behind my posts and if I make a mistake, I will admit to it. That pretty much sums it up Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 08:41 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSounds like a little too much was already deleted from this discussion to make much sense of it. I think what's left might thus be read out of context. Probably best to just move on.

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10-22-2006, 08:59 AM

Posted By: jay behrensyeah, that's why I was disappointed when Leon deleted the thread becuase now we have this, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 09:04 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethHard to blame Leon when the poster both removed the content of his original post and requested that the thread be deleted, it seems to me. I wish you hadn't done that Jay because now we are left with vague, second hand reports ("and other things" for example) rather than what the charges were and what explanations were offered.

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10-22-2006, 09:09 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, why not re-post the original email? I think we should have the right to make a determination of this issue on our own. I have placed a number of bids in this auction and would really like to know if I'm buying altered material. Thanks.

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10-22-2006, 09:17 AM

Posted By: leonJay- once again I have no issue exposing stuff on this forum. It's one of the great things about it. No one, not me, not you, not anyone in the hobby, can hide from it. This was a difficult decision but I would prefer to err on the side of caution when it involves someone's business. I hope you understand. I would do the same thing for anyone. I try to be as impartial as I can.....I can only imagine if there was banner advertising going....I would be accused of doing this for monetary reasons. That is a concern of mine going forward with that trial. I know, in my heart, I will do what I feel is the right thing to do...but no doubt some won't believe me.... edited for grammar...I changed something correct to incorrect and back to correct <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJeff, That was the whole point. There was no altered material. Somebody created an email that shows before and after scans of cards that were bought by me on ebay and then upgraded. But the thing was that the cards were high-end for the grade when I bought them and nothing was done or had to be done to get the upgrade. The cards were cracked out and resubmitted and given a higher grade. What they didnt show were the examples of cards that were cracked out and received lower grades and or the same grade. I made the point that I have never and will never trim or alter cards. The emails do not prove anything other than the fact that I obtained a favorable grade. In fact, one of the cards in question was bought by me in a "3" and got bumped to a "4". The card had a crease when I bought it and still has a crease and I disclosed the crease in the auction. I have been nothing but honest or upfront in any way as a dealer or auctioneer. In fact, the other point that was made was, if I was up to nefarious activities why would I hold myself out to the public and stand behind the cards that I sell or auction? Why not do what many others do? Trim and alter and get the cards graded successfully and them give them to an auction anonomously and never have to be held accountable. This email was a deliberate attemp to defame me and hurt my business. I have contacted my attorney and he is reviewing any and all public statments that were made. Also my best friend works for the FBI, he is researching the IP address etc that was used to send the anonomus email. I have nothing to hide. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 09:27 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethAccording to Jay's recounting of the deleted thread you said that you do do things that many people do not consider alteration such as pen and ink removal. It would be helpful, I think, if you could clarify whether or not you did say that and if so exactly what you did say, so we don't have just Jay's second hand account. Thanks.

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10-22-2006, 09:38 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasPeter, No problem. My personal opinion and I know that it others disagree is that I will remove someting from a card if it was not on there when it was made. I gave an analogy. If you own a all original 57 chevy and you take it out for a spin and while doing so a bird ****s on the card. Do you and can you remove the bird stain and still maintain that the car is 100% original. So to answer your question. I have tried to erase pencil and or pen. Alot of times it does not work, meaning it will not come all the way off. I have never used any chemicals such as bleach etc. Just a little saliva and a finger and or art gum eraser. Caramel stains and tobacco stains can be reduced but never removed alltogehter in my experience so I do not spend much time with them. But I have tried in the past. Keep in mind I was doing these things when I was 10 years old. The last thing I will do, is put a card in a screwdown or glass block in order to lay down a corner that has been fliped up or flaten out a card. Which I ironically I did also when I was a kid by putting my best cards inside books to protect the corners and keep them pointy. If you speak with the grading services privately they will not consider any of things I have talked about as alteration. I am an open book to my customers and auction bidders. I have a family and am not in the business to cheat or deceive anyone to make a buck. I spent 10 years trading securities for a living so I have a little money saved and do not need to engage in unethical practices that might go unnoticed in order to profit. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulli"yeah, that's why I was disappointed when Leon deleted the thread becuase now we have this, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense." It didn't make much sense after you deleted your post last night, either. Seems to me that if you're going to take a poke at someone's livelihood by suggesting improprieties in a public forum, whether you're right or wrong, you should be prepared to stand by statements that you make. Don't get me wrong, Jay, if I had made the post you made last night, and then saw where the thread was going, I might have gotten nervous and wanted to delete it as well. But I certainly wouldn't have come into this thread and started taking potshots at Leon over it. Leon isn't the guy who started the thread and then backed out of it when it got heated. After you deleted your post, all that was left was Charlie, Greg and Brian defending themselves and taking stabs at each other over a thread you started. If I were you I'd be happy Leon deleted it. -Al

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10-22-2006, 09:55 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesOnce a card is in a reputable holder, the grade of the card is defined by a defensable expert. It may or may not reflect the card's condition, but it establishes its grade. What occurs prior to holdering is open to speculation. For all cards, for all time. That is, until the time exists that our technology can eliminate undetectable alterations. You think that a crease has been pressed out? A mark erased? A corner rebuilt? Go ahead, make yourself crazy in the pursuit of the ultimate pristine. Give me the lifted butt, tummy tucked, silicone and colegen injected pseudo babe. I ain't gonna marry my cards. I just like the way they look. And feel. And smell. Taste?

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10-22-2006, 09:58 AM

Posted By: jay behrensThere is a copy of the entire thread out there. Right now it saved in a format that I cannot decode properly so I am trying to clean it up so it is readable. The only thing being edit out is all the gobbledy-gook for graphics. I'll post it as soon as it is done. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 10:15 AM

Posted By: jay behrensOk, here is what was saved of the previous thread. It was saved up to the point where the links got reposted. There were some other posts there, one by Leon which I think he wants permanently erased anyway <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> but the gist of the whole thread is there. Most of what was lost was an echange between Charlie and Bcd that they can rehash if they like. Here it is. It's a bit of mess with all the html code in it, but I was having a hard time deciphering usernames from it, so I left it as-is. deleted, answers were good enough for me. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy. This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 1:25 AM This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 1:00 AM This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 12:47 AM ==== "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/post?messageid=1161404912" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/post?messageid=1161404912</a>" ¶Respond to this message§áááAuthorReply HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:paulcrstratton">paulcrstratton</a>" ¶paulstratton§ paulstratton (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/smokeyjoewood" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/smokeyjoewood</a>" ¶smokeyjoewood§)drOctober 21 2006,á12:42 AMá I didn't overlap them or anything but it looks like he cracked out high end cards and got them bumped. What doctoring are you talking about? ===== HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:sabrjay@yahoo.com">sabrjay@yahoo.com</a>" ¶jay behrens§ jay behrens (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay</a>" ¶sabrjay§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:04 AMá Look at the Young card. There is a crease in the upper left corner tha disappeared along with the black spots on his arm. You can tell it's the same card by looking at the back. Aligned the same the same stain appears in the D of "candy". You can also see where the crease broke the black boarder and they didn't recolor that spot Jay ===== áá HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cbarokas42@yahoo.com">cbarokas42@yahoo.com</a>" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie Barokas (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK</a>" ¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:09 AMá Jay, Thank you for giving me credit for having such a good eye for upgrades. Part of my business is to by cards that look high-end for the grade and crack them out of their holder and resubmit them in an attempt to get a higher grade. I do not deny that all the examples you have shown are upgrades that I have gotten. However, you forgot to show how many losers I have to go along with the winners. I will say this one time. I have never trimmed, added or removed from a based card. baseball card. I have erased pencil or pen marks and or removed stains from cards. I have nothing to hide. I am completely honest about the cards I crack out. Please feel free to bring any example to the forefront that shows the card has been trimmed or altered. You will not be able to find one. The information that was provided to you, was generated from Greg Schwartz and Brian Daniels. This an attempt to defame and or hurt my business for their personal enjoyment. I have contacted my attorney and we will monitor all allegations made in public forums. Including mass emails and other general communication. I have done nothing to Greg or Brian but be nice to them when others said they were questionable individuals. Brian has been emailing me as of late insulting me and trying to get me to engage him and I refused to do so which I believe made him furious. People who know me and the truth about the way I conduct business, know that I am honest and have never trimmed or altered a card. Some people may have had a problem with me in the past but that is life and I make many honest mistakes. Many of which I have tried to rectify including you Jay. Charlie ===== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1127892923.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:sabrjay@yahoo.com">sabrjay@yahoo.com</a>" ¶jay behrens§ jay behrens (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay</a>" ¶sabrjay§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:19 AMá If you don't alter cards, then what happened to that crease in the upper left corner of the Young card? It is no longer there. The only way that could happen is that you either doctored the card or the scan. Either way, it doesn't look good. Jay ===== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1147829752.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:Bicem@hotmail.com">Bicem@hotmail.com</a>" ¶Jeff Prizner§ Jeff Prizner (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/Bicem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/Bicem</a>" ¶Bicem§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:20 AMá Jay, I think the crease not showing up as well on the Young card is just a difference between the two scans. Charlie calls out the crease in the description. ===== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1118724961.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:jkrasner@maupintaylor.com">jkrasner@maupintaylor.com</a>" ¶JK§ JK (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/jkrasner2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/jkrasner2</a>" ¶jkrasner2§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:20 AMá I agree with Paul - all of the cards look like they were cracked and bumped up a grade. I dont see any evidence they were trimmed. I still see the crease in the regraded young - I just think Charlie's scan doesnt show it as clearly - that is probably because of the brightness of the scan - tends to hide minor wrinkling/creasing. I have also seen several cards in charlie's auctions that did not bump. For example, in his last auction he had a beautiful e93 sgc 40 wagner that was sold by Hal on ebay. That card was crossed to a PSA 3 (ie no bump at all). I am very familiar with that card - its a great card and I have no doubt that had someone wanted to, it could have been trimmed and bumped up significantly - it wasnt. This message has been edited by jkrasner2 on Oct 21, 2006 1:25 AM ===== ááCharlie Barokas (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK</a>" ¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:24 AMá Lastly, If I was really guilty of something unscrupulous why would I run auctions and stand behind the cards? Why not do what Greg admitted doing? Giving cards anonomously to auction houses in order to not have to stand behind the card? If he was so proud of the Kid Eberfeld? Why did he not just sell it under his own name on ebay and save the 17.5%? The people in this hobby that collectors need to worry about are those people who alter cards and then in bulk give them to auction houses to lauder themselves from the card. I don't give many cards to auction houses because I am not ashamed of any of the cards I sell and would by any of them back. Because I do not do anything to the card that is consider alteration. I know there is a group of purist our their that will condemn me for erasing pencil or pen or removing a stain. I accept their opinion but I do not agree with it. The example is, if you own an all original 57 Chevy and you take is out for a spin and a bird ****s on it, do you remove the **** or do you put it back in the garage with the bird **** on it? Charlie ===== áá HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cbarokas42@yahoo.com">cbarokas42@yahoo.com</a>" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie Barokas (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK</a>" ¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:28 AMá Jay, SGC is much tougher on corner creases than PSA. Josh is correct the crease is still there, I disclose it in the auction. PSA just did not view the crease as enough to knock the card down to VG. It is true that all three of the big three have different nuances to the way they grade the same thing and as a dealer who is trying to feed his family, he must take advantage of the difference. I think many collectors do the same. What Greg and Brian have done is also unfair to my consignors. Over 70% of the cards in my auciton are consignments. It is a shame that someone who consigned to me would get hurt by this. ===== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1138480616.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cardknowledge@earthlink.net">cardknowledge@earthlink.net</a>" ¶BcDaniels§ BcDaniels (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels</a>" ¶B.C.Daniels§)Charlie...pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:32 AMá You are kidding yourself! "<img src="http://www.network54.com/images/happy.gif">" 1) I e-mailed you to tease you. If not for you posting here I would not even involve myself. Your "belief" I am furious is nonsense. But you are clearly a liar. Tomorrow, I will expose your comments about washing, cleaning and pulling corners and creases out of cards you stupidly stated PUBLICALLY at the Hollywood Park show about two years ago to "Adrian" in front of several people. Funny how after I sent you a couple of links to your "Anthony932006" yesterday then instantly you then tried to CALL me on the phone several times to discuss what you would NOT put in e-mails! This then was followed up by some "pleasant" e-mails and now youÆre accusing me of something I knew about all along and yet had nothing to do with! Maybe you should use your pee brain to trace the IP of the letter sent around and you'll figure out where and who it came from! You got caught AGAIN with your pants down Charlie and want to circumvent your immoral activities on me!!!! I am not a dealer Charlie, I have a job maybe you could explain what motives I would have in this??? You got it-none! I sent you my B-18 blankets to sell through the auction and you think I have some motive for exposing your wanton greed??. Tell me then Charlie, what would my motive be??? You purchased that CY Young card from LEON*** Then you removed the crease, cleaned it and resubmitted it! The scans are obvious! Wonder what Leon is going to say when he wakes up and sees that card Charlie! How will you blame this on me? You did the same thing with a board members card I could post. Privatizing your handles and changing the handles every 30 days as you do wonÆt stop the people you buy from in sharing these things Charlie. It just makes you look as shady as you are! You should have kept your mouth shut at the Hollywood park show. You never know who is looking at your cards as you are describing what you did to them! I'll stand by that fact Charlie! There are other people who heard you, deny it and they might just come on here and infuriate YOU! You dug your own hole don't even mention me in pretending I am down there with you. Send back my B-18 blankets pronto! ===== áá HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cbarokas42@yahoo.com">cbarokas42@yahoo.com</a>" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie Barokas (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK</a>" ¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Leon, delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:39 AMá Brian, You must be drunk? I have never seen you at Hollywood park in my life. Maybe you should read the description, the crease is still on the card and I disclosed in the description. Brian, don't hate me for this but you are the craziest most whacked out individual I have ever met. You are a compulsive liar. You never fought in the Octagon. You never stormed a mountain in the Grenada conflict. You do not own 80,000 caramel cards. You do not own a Gym. I could go on and on. ===== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1138480616.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cardknowledge@earthlink.net">cardknowledge@earthlink.net</a>" ¶Anonymous§ Anonymous (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels</a>" ¶B.C.Daniels§)Re: Leon, delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:44 AMá Brian, You must be drunk? I DO NOT DRINK! INCLUDEPICTURE "<img src="http://www.network54.com/images/happy.gif">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ I have never seen you at Hollywood park in my life. YOU DID NOT KNOW ME THEN AS I ONLY MET YOU FORMALLY LAST YEAR AT THE SAN FRANCISCO SHOW! INCLUDEPICTURE "<img src="http://www.network54.com/images/happy.gif">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ Maybe you should read the description, the crease is still on the card and I disclosed in the description. Brian, don't hate me for this but you are the craziest most whacked out individual I have ever met. You are a compulsive liar. CHARLIE YOU;LL DENY IT BUT IF YOU CALL ME AGAIN AND CALL ME THE THINGS YOU DID AT 10;40 PM MY TIME ( ITS LOGGED IN MY PHONE***) I WILL FILE A POLICE REPORT ON YOU! You never fought in the Octagon. You never stormed a mountain in the Grenada conflict. You do not own 80,000 caramel cards. You do not own a Gym. I could go on and on. YOU COULD BUT: A) WHO SAID I OWNED A GYM? 2) IT IS MERELY A CIRCUMVENTIVE TACTIC TO DENY AND DEFLECT THE OBVIOUS. I DECIED I AM GOING TO CALL THE POLICE RIGHT NOW JUST TO NOTE IT ON FILE AND HAVE THEM CONFIRM YOU JUST CALLED ME. ===== áá HYPERLINK "<a href="mailto:cbarokas42@yahoo.com">cbarokas42@yahoo.com</a>" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie Barokas (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK</a>" ¶MANONTHEROCK§)Gregs response via email to meOctober 21 2006,á1:46 AMá You are a stupid **** and you will pay. First you out my buying id to people because you thought I was the one responsible for giving people info about you. Who the **** do you think you are? I will crush your business you stupid ****. I have had it with you ripping into me without provocation. Wanna see your auction business go down the drain? Watch. Now go **** yourself ****head. Greg Schwartz Bottom of the Ninth 1910 Montana Avenue Santa Monica, CA 90403 310-829-5937 ====== "<img src="http://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1080004621.JPG">" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶§ Bottom of the Ninth (Login HYPERLINK "<a href="http://www.network54.com/Profile/BOTN" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Profile/BOTN</a>" ¶BOTN§)Re: Leon, delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:53 AMá If you have nothing to be ashamed of then why start attacking me? Please explain to us how these cards bumped two grades after you bought them? For someone who is threatening legal remedies why start attacking innocent people? Does not make a good case for you. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160031935644" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160031935644</a> <a href="http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5034" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5034</a> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130019001385" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130019001385</a> <a href="http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5008" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5008</a> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200029196072" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200029196072</a> <a href="http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5021" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5021</a> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280018174907" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280018174907</a> <a href="http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5026" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5026</a> ==== I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 10:23 AM

Posted By: jay behrensAl, don't get me wrong, I had at one point posted asking that the thread be deleted. When it had not and my original post reposted, I removed that request since the impetous for the thread was returned and at that point, I felt there was too much worthwhile info for the whole thread to be deleted. Leon has contacted me about posts I've made before, just wish he had done that with this one. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethJay it still isn't clear to me anyhow why you asked for it to be deleted in the first place. But in any event it seems between the reposting of it and Charlie's clarification and the other comments we now more or less know what the issues and responses are as if it had not been deleted. I guess the bigger question, which has been rehashed many times in many contexts, is the acceptability or not of certain (looking for a neutral word here) practices and where each of us would draw the line. It seems that one will always be with us.

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10-22-2006, 10:35 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesBOTN, MANONTHEROCK, BcD, Jay Behrens - take it away. We tire of your soap opera. I know, just don't click on it Gil, but let us have our fun. You are right, go have your fun.

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10-22-2006, 10:37 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI had posted asking for other opinions on the cards. Charlie posted and gave satisfactory answers to all the cards except the Young. I still don't buy that the crease scanned differently. The crease is far too pronounced to just disappear in another scan. If you look at the eBay scan, there is noticable ridge where the crease is. I don't care how bad your scanner is, that ridge shouldn't disappear. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: jay behrensGil, the doctoring of cards is a major issue for our hobby. Many people would prefer to jsut ignore the 800 pound gorilla and hope goes away. Others want to see something done about it. When questionable things come up, they need to be exposed. Charlie did good job explaining all the cards except the Young. I'm not convinced that wrinkled wasn't pressed out. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsWas Charlie contacted privately, before being "called out" on an internet message board? If not, that seems pretty bush league to me. And so what if his "explinations" were satisfactory or not to whomever questions his cards? Just don't bid on them then. C'mon, its baseball cards guys! Lets have fun! Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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10-22-2006, 10:56 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThere are so many issues here that it is hard to know where to begin, but if Charlie's auction is 70% consignments as he says, he is being put in a terribly awkward situation with his consignors. They are not involved in any of this yet their material may now suffer because of these allegations. I also want to mention that I received these emails and the sender was MANONTHEROCK, so if they were not sent by Charlie, he should know that somebody stole his identity. This is really sordid stuff.

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10-22-2006, 11:01 AM

Posted By: NoelWow, Brian Daniels and Greg Shwartz seem to be a couple of real charmers. And how do you think you two will be remembered for this type of mean spirited garbage? Threating to shut down a mans livelihood during the middle of his auction, very impressive. This isnt the first time we have had the treat of Brians verbal diarrhea when he has a disagreement. Must be a new way of communicating when no other real words will work.

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10-22-2006, 11:21 AM

Posted By: ScottIngoldAgain for me Charlie has been nothing but a class act. Why does it seem someone is doing all they can to harm him ? This is just plain wrong on so many levels it makes my head spin.

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10-22-2006, 11:28 AM

Posted By: leonPlease email me privately....nothing personal, I promise.....

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10-22-2006, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Frank EvanovI have two questions: [1] Charlie posted [and then deleted] the following in a thread here earlier this year.. "I have nothing to hide. Scott or someone before Scott attempted to remove the stain from the back of the card, in doing so they also stired up many of the fibers on the back. I simply removed more of the stain and layed the fibers back down." What does that mean? Is that alteration or restoration? [2] Why would anyone bid on a card at PSA 6 prices when it was available on EBAY as a PSA 4? Frank

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10-22-2006, 11:43 AM

Posted By: leonNot sure if you were looking for my opinion but I could see how a tiny piece of a card would flip up and someone flip it back down. What flips up is fibers/paper. I would stop at anything more than water or saliva on putting it back down. Grading companies (at least the best one(s)) will catch glue and not numerically grade because of it. As for anyone buying a card in a 4 or 6...well, not to be condescending sounding but, it's worth more in the 6 holder. I could see a smudge being removed from a card and a 2 grade bump given. Not sure I care if the smudge came off and the grade was higher..again, I do not know the particulars of what you are talking about but those are my generally feelings. For the record I have absolutely no issue buying from Charlie, Greg, or BCD.....No issue at all.....best regards....

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10-22-2006, 11:50 AM

Posted By: MarkI have a question for Charlie. In one post this morning, you say "There was no altered material..nothing was done or had to be done to get the upgrade. The cards were cracked out and resubmitted and given a higher grade." In your next post, you list list your techiniques for imporving cards (erasing, removing stains, laying down corners, art erasers, etc.) that you have use in the past. Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?

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10-22-2006, 11:51 AM

Posted By: Frank EvanovThanks for your response. I just see the second issue as a transgression against the First Commandment..."Ye Shall Buy the Card and not the Holder. Frank

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10-22-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI thought the First Commandment was "Don't but put price stickers on the front of the PSA holders as it's a bitch to get that sticky stuff off." I think the fourth is, "Don't dry your Armour Coins in the microwave."

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10-22-2006, 12:37 PM

Posted By: Cobby33.

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10-22-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: B.C.Daniels If I had written it I would have signed my name to it-period! I am not the type of person or have the kind of personality that would hide behind that sort of thing. Everyone knows that! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Charlie could easily have the point of origin traced if he wanted to and stop accusing people of things before doing the research! "An innocent man needs no defense." My wife would love to talk to his wife about calling my house in a tirade at 10:40pm late last night threatening me-which he did! He can take that to anyone he wants! It's logged in my phone I specifically told him one day prior that the phone was being used by my daughter. this was expressed through e-mail when he was pretending to be nice and wanted to "talk" (because he wouldn't write about this stuff)several times two days ago. Gee,given all the slams he wrote about me why the "plesantries" via several e-mails to "talk"? I will stand by my replies to his circumventing accusations that have nothing at all to do with this issue. In this issue,my charactor is of no consequence here. I am not running auctions nor am I a card "dealer". I will stand by my comment concerning the Hollywood Park show. Charlie didn't see me as he puts it because he had no idea what I looked like at the time. I knew who he was as he made a point of telling everyone. He wanted to buy there cards as well as sell them some! There is another person who he has engaged on the chat board in a negative manner than can quote comments he made at that show.He didn't or doesn't know what they look like either unless he has formally met them since. The Cy Young I was reffering to was NOT the mello mint e-105 in his present auction or owned by Tony,but the SGC 40*** CROFTS CANDY blue back Cy Young he purchased from Leon under privatized handle number whatever that is changed every 30 days as is all his handles are in hopes you lose track. It will be interesting to see what grade and what company holder that ends up in on the market when it is again for sale. The personal attack on me was both baseless and uncalled for.Charlie jumped to conclusions and should now know better after what has been relayed to him through e-mails by others. I merely relayed to him privately tips on this stuff and would never have discussed it publically if not dragged into it by Charlie! using me as a public deflection for things that have no cercern or bearing on my collecting prowess. He has yet to appologize for his public blunder and his terroristic phone call.My wife is not happy about that and expressed that to the authorities.

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10-22-2006, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasBrian, I sincerely apologize to you if you had nothing to do with it. I also apologize to your wife for calling so late but I was being unfairly attacked and I made a poor choice to call you. On the other hand, I have been in contact with many people who have said that if you did not circulate the email you certainly instigating the situation. Encouraging others to put the info on the 54 board etc. I cannot confirm anything at this point. My main concern is that the truth available so those that bid on my auctions or by cards from me can make an informed desicion. Once again, its unfortunate this thing happen but in a way I am glad that this dirty laundry has been aired and so people can make up their own minds, rather than a few people trying to influence people in a private way. What is not cool and not ok was the fact that someone sent out a mass email which they assumed my identity in an attempt to defame or hurt my business. I will get to the bottom of the whole thing. And you are correct I have contacted my friend with the FBI to check IP addresses etc. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 01:23 PM

Posted By: B.C.Daniels What I wrote in the chat room was this: "no one is going to expose this" That is a quote Charlie; I have the full text saved from the chat board. Re-read my edited version above. I am NOT a card dealer and this is NOT my life! I am a collector and am confident in what I buy to detect what is altered or trimmed or air brushed or whatever. I do not need to worry about what you do as I can determine for myself what I wish to buy with confidence in my own eyes and own experience in now 40 years of card collecting. That’s right! I have cards I collected since I was 8 years old and have studied them ever since. For your convoluted memory Charlie, I am a GM for the largest gym chain in the US. NOBODY but you would try to say I stated I owned one! Who would want to? If I had the kind of money it took to do that right I would own "BrinaontheRock" or maybe "WeirdstintellectsCharliescratcheshisheadover" and compete with you "dealers" and join in on the bull’s eye slams that are part of being a dealer in cards. I DID own part of a game store in Saratoga California A Jewelry store in Log Gatos California and part owner of a coin shop in San Jose California. I traded all that for a common job so I could spend more time with my family-didn't you say that was your goal young Charlie??? So what's so weird about that if inevitably we share the same life's intention Charlie? I am not sure how you can admit and you have that you learned a lesson about having a big mouth on the chat board yet are not willing to except the consequences that go along with having done so! Then you go and do it again!!! Now who's weird Charlie? I take my lumps for whatever I do or say and you should too! You also have failed to address the question on the big picture- Why would I want to do anything that harms you??? Especially when I gave you stuff to put in YOUR auction? Did you think that through before ejecting me from the auction and calling me? Charlie, I am way more involved in COINS and paintings then I am or would be in cards even if I were a dealer. I have some nice cards but no longer have the resource allocation to buy up expensive cards. I am not a "player" in the card market even as a collector! Your other assertions are inane. I could make money today by offering it to you to prove your assertions about other things I have been involved in. You would find flaw in your conclusions there as well. I guy who declares his trustworthiness and honesty should be able to discern when others have no need to lie as well. It appears you have not been masterful at this if you keep having to ask people about the integrity of others as you state often. Why don't you evaluate people for yourself and make up your own mind. Do you really think the people you ask about other people are any better than those you inquire about? I am sure you have my address,please send my blankets back.

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10-22-2006, 01:30 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasBrian, I know you won't believe this but I was calling you prior to this mess regarding the blankets. I can still add them to the auction, provided you have not altered them in anyway. Joke of course. But seriously I will put them in the auction or mail them back Monday am. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsyou are correct by the way,I don't believe you because we convered every possible detail of the blankets in e-mails and as soon as I referred to you as "Anthony", teasing you about one of your secretive e-bay handles you immediately called several times! We had nothing concerning the blankets to talk about at this point and you cannot hood wink people with being polite. "Niceness" is so endearing Charlie but it does not cover over falsehood. As I told you several times before the past several months;"wisdom is the rule of the day" not manners. And posting and writing e-mails and calling in Friday nights??? Sabbath issue! after draging me into your business problems,degrading my personallity and charator publically,pretending to be nice though your not,cusing your head off and threatening me waking up two of my children and concerning my wife after I explicitly told you I was not going to use the phone a day prior then making ellusions of law suits that have forced me to file a police report in case there is subsequent contact from you and yours--pass.. just send them back-thanks and hopefully over!

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10-22-2006, 03:02 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, can you respond to Mark's question?

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10-22-2006, 03:07 PM

Posted By: jay behrensand you haven't satifactorily explained the change in the crease on the Young. The crease may still be there, but it's not as pronounced as before. I don't buy the "It's the scanner" plea. There is a noticble ridge that is no longer there. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 03:13 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDitto to Jay's question. I think bidders are more concerned about these two questions than an FBI agent who should be searching for UBL instead of getting involved in a baseball card drama.

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10-22-2006, 03:19 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI think the anonymous email was sent from an IP address in northeast Pakistan.

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10-22-2006, 04:37 PM

Posted By: jay behrensHere's Charlie's response to me about the e92 Young card: As far as the crease, the only thing that I did to that card was crack it out of the holder and put it in a screwdown overnight. Why do that? The only reason I can think of is to try and press out the ridge before submitting it. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 04:38 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanAnd the response to Mark's question??????

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10-22-2006, 04:48 PM

Posted By: jay behrenshe didn't answer that one. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 04:50 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJay, That was unfair to paraphrase my email. The crease on the card is still there and still breaks the paint and is not flush with the card. Because I did not press it or alter it in any way. And I also did disclose this crease as I do with any crease present on a card that I can see. Jeff & Mark, There are no altered cards in my auction. There are cards that have been upgraded by cracking them out and resubmitting them. As I stated before, when I was a kid I would put my best cards between books in order to make the corners pointy. I still do this. I put the card in a glass block screw-down before submitting them. If you or anyone else considers this alteration, I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. If you would like to retract any of your bids on any card in the auction, I will be happy to do so. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 04:52 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasCharlie, I think I have said enough on this matter and I will bow out now. I am not on trial. I will however address any questions via email or phone at anytime. Regards Charlie

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10-22-2006, 04:57 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI did not paraphrase statement. I posted only the relavent part pertaining to the Young card. If I was paraphrasing, I would have left out the last word, overnight. It would have made your statement look much more damning, but I made sure to leave it in, just for the reason. You say that you don't press cards, but by putting them in a screwdown, you are in effect pressing them. Why else do it. Claiming a lifelong habit is nice, but there is an alterior motive for it. Whether you use a screwdown holder, spoon or some other implement, you are still pressing the card to improve it's appearance. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 05:12 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsas you threaten that way in essence you will be on trial via the counter depositions! And if anyone does actually call you make sure to give them your cell phone number only so you can go outside and curse and threaten them and close the door behind you so your wife and daughters don't hear the real Charlie...you know, the one who prides himself with being nice and polite ect. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 05:14 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, I think all that Mark (and I) are asking is: has anything been done to the cards other than cracking them out and pressing them in a screwdown? Has any effort been made to remove marks? Anything else? That's all. And this is hardly a trial. Trust me, it would hurt a lot more than this. As for answering these simple - very simple - questions, don't you think you are obligated considering you are running an auction presently?

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10-22-2006, 05:22 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJeff, I thought I was done answering these type of questions on this board but because you are a bidder I will answer the question again. No! Nothing else was done. And please feel free to contact me anytime about any card via phone or email. My father is an attorney so I am used to being question but is a public place. Regards Charlie

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10-22-2006, 05:31 PM

Posted By: B.C.Daniels"I am used to being question but is a public place" <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161473464.JPG">

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10-22-2006, 05:32 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, all you have to do is look at the Young scans and see that he also removed the marks that were on Young's arm/shoulder area. Check this other card out. Ink has been removed, although not well <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220028704625" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220028704625</a> <a href="http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5098" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5098</a> Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 05:43 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, Jay's example is pretty powerful and I think the following questions merit a response. 1. Is that Mathewson your card or a consignor's? 2. Did you remove the ink?

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10-22-2006, 05:49 PM

Posted By: BrianLooks like some green accidentally came off too...

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10-22-2006, 06:39 PM

Posted By: DJI'm fascinated with this thread...brought to you by Jerry Springer. I would like to know Charlie's percentage of cards that fail to increase in grade when he tries to get an increased digit. Very interesting thread though... DJ

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10-22-2006, 06:54 PM

Posted By: BcDanielsIf at first you don't succeed, try, try again! Dealers simply resubmit it several times and/or send it to the "soft" competition and either sell it in their holder or try to cross grade it back to your preferred companies holders using emotional ply of showing them what the competition feels it grades by sitting in front of the grading table discussing it for a while with graders you become familiar with based on your continuous business. This is done all the time and you can see it if you observe the tables for submittals. And why do you think so many auctions have all three grading companies’ slabs in their auctions??? You have to play mix and match properly to make money on plastic and grade numbers! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 07:13 PM

Posted By: leonGuys- I really let almost anything go if you put your name by it...to a certain point. Here are the 2 cards of Matty being referred to. I think ya'll need to find a different witch to hunt. I have NOT SEEN ONE ISSUE against Charlie that has been substantiated. This bump of 1 grade is really weak. Everyone has tried their best to hurt his character. NOT ONE person has shown anything substantial imho. I will not let this continue much longer as it's detrimental to the board and himself. It's not right....I can only take so much of this....Ya'll either come up with something better or let it go. I don't want to hear about what someone heard 3 years ago either. Anymore negative posts in this thread might be eliminated. It's just not right. He has been tried (through auction links etc) on several issues and has been exonerated on each one...again, in my opinion. I don't care if you don't believe what he says you better show something concrete or SHUT THE HELL UP. ....kind regards <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161479050.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161479198.JPG">

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10-22-2006, 07:23 PM

Posted By: jay behrensLeon, are you really that stupid? Yes, I am wondering if you are stupid. The question about the Matty card is not about the grade or the front of the card. It is about what was done to the BACK of the card. Are you denying that anything was done to this card? If so, please explain to us how there was nothing done to this card. Charlie claims to not doctor cards, but it's become obvious that he not only buy cards to resubmit, but to also clean and press. It may be fine in your book to do these things, but it's not in others and he should be exposed for what he does so people can make an education decision about the person they are about to deal with. Also, if you shut this thread down, it will provide more ammuntion for those that think you are already cowtowing to big dealers and collectors, even without banner ads. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 07:32 PM

Posted By: DJFor the record, I meant no disrespect in any way toward Charlie in my asking. It was a legit question. Second, Wow. Young Jay is going to the principal's office. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> DJ

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10-22-2006, 07:39 PM

Posted By: Colt McClellandCharlie is a great guy and an honest dealer. In fact, he is more open and honest than most dealers in that he is openly disclosing his opinion as to what he thinks is ok to do to cards before submitting them for grading. Not many dealers are this open and honest about this type of thing. If you disagree with him, then that's fine. But don't attack him personally or try to challenge his integrity. If anything, he should be receiving praise from the board for his honesty, professionalism and open attitude in the face of this unwarranted attack.

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10-22-2006, 07:49 PM

Posted By: leonI would have thought that with your nuclear engineering degree (or whatever it is) you could have figured out what I was talking about...sort of big scans I posted. I should have been talking about the back though ...I thought ya'll were talking about a green smudge on the front...and it's not much different. Charlie already said he has used gum erasers. I use Mars Plastic Erasers myself. I am indifferent as to the enhancement of a grade. I might have liked it before the erasing better but it's close to the same grade regardless...imo. Here are those scans.... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161481677.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161481716.JPG"> edited grammar..

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10-22-2006, 07:52 PM

Posted By: paulstrattonI may be mistaken but didn't Charlie already say he erases marks and removes stains? Something along the lines of "if a bird sh**s on a 57 tbird..." The only problem I would have is in his description he says it is a scuff mark and not an erasure mark. He also said he plays the grading game and sends different cards to different companies. I'm not defending Charlie, hell I don't even know him, but he and his business seem to be getting massacred over this. I'm all for full disclosure but he didn't even grade the damn cards.

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10-22-2006, 08:00 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI think Jay's post was a fair one, the statement was made in response to a previous question that the cards in question had simply been cracked and resubmitted, and Jay posted an example where certainly the scan suggests that ink may have been removed. To me it is a legitimate question and there may well be a legitimate answer. EDITED TO ADD People are getting confused in my opinion between Charlie's general statement about his philosophy and his specific answer to Jeff Lichtman's question about the particular cards in this auction, and I think Jay was simply asking a follow up to that.

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10-22-2006, 08:03 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielscan't Charlie cough up the $9.99 to buy an architectural designers eraser! professional models may cost as much as $14.99 but leave far less evidence of abrassion on the surface of the card! There is also a product you can use that dulls the effect of the whiter appearance oof the area after the eraser friction removes the oxydation! Opps! Why am I posting this! I don't know anything about this kind of thing! maybe someone will hire me to teach them how to do this correctly with limited findings. Oh! the spray is about $16 per can as well.

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10-22-2006, 08:07 PM

Posted By: jay behrensColt, he's open to a point. Every time he's been exposed on the board here, when the heat really gets turned up, he goes quiet. This does nothing to help his reputation with those that don't know him. What baseless accusation have been made against him? The Young and Matty card have obviously been clean up and the Young pressed. Some think it's ok, such as Leon and others, but there are other people that do not feel that this ok. It thought part of what this board is about is helping people make educated decisions about who to buy from. If Charlie feels that cleaning up cards is ok, then he shouldn't have a problem with people asking what he's done to his cards. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 08:10 PM

Posted By: Steve M. "Outstanding eye appeal for the given grade. A VG-EX front with a slight scuff (caused by ink removal with a ink eraser) the reverse accounts for the accurate grade of 2.5." I believe the auctioneer has adequately disclosed the issue with the reverse. With that said I don't think this card should have received a numerical grade.

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10-22-2006, 08:11 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Can we turn this into a "what counts as altering" thread? We haven't rehashed that in a few weeks now. I don't think erasing pencil marks (or any mark for that matter)with an eraser should qualify as "altering" a card. Now, if you were to accidentally erase something and then try to recolor it back in then you've crossed to the dark side and should be publicly whipped. I don't subscribe to "freeing" a card from a grading holder in an effort to get a higher grade. On the other hand, who cares who does it? If you get a better grade then good for you. If you get a lower grade then you better get ready to pony up for the next round when it's submitted again. You can't blame people for trying. I'm not in the business of trying to profit from this hobby so I just don't care.

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10-22-2006, 08:15 PM

Posted By: joeCharlie admits he erases ink and pencil marks. We all can see he did that on the back of the card. Maybe my eyes are not as good as others but the front looks the same to me. I don't flip cards, so maybe it's time to bid on Charlie's auctions, as some on the board probably won't be bidding. Joe Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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10-22-2006, 08:15 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI have to agree with Jay (not his tone - Leon's suffered enough from this forum the past few days, give the guy a break). He's right. While some people are attacking Charlie, neither Jay nor I nor Mark are. We just want to know what the deal is with the cards. Look, I for one appreciate that this sort of stuff, i.e., pressing, altering, etc. goes on in any place on the net where vintage cards are sold. It happens on ebay every day. But Charlie is a board member and we just want to know what the deal is - and I think we deserve to know prior to bidding on his auctions. If he does not want to tell us, fine, he doesn't have to and he lives with the consequences. But it's just hard to understand when he says that no cards in his auction have been altered and then that Matty pops up. What is with that? Charlie, here's some advice: just tell the truth. Plenty of people will still buy the cards that have been touched up. But being evasive is not helping. I suspect half the people that bash you out here have probably done it themselves. Just tell the truth and let the chips fall. But getting these answers out of you has been something akin to root canal, no? And this debate is getting very tiresome. If you guys don't stop it I'm going back on Fox next week solely to inspire another viciously long thread about the direction our country is going in....

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10-22-2006, 08:16 PM

Posted By: Cobby33I think part of the "blame" has to go to the grading companies for allowing re-submittals (if they allow them, we're all stuck with the consequences, good or bad) AND for being inconsistent with their own grading standards (not to mention not having any universal standards). As I had mentioned before, most people believe an "AUT" or "A" grade to mean that the card isn't fake, but it's been altered somehow. I recently purchased a T206 in a GAI holder with an "A" grade, becuase the corners were missing (probably came from an album). I re-submitted it to SGC (because the GAI holder was stained and because I prefer SGC), telling them I was merely looking for at least and "AUT" from them, which I received. The card was otherwise not altered - yet - I see plenty of beaters from PSA, et al., with "1" grades...I also see clearly altered cards with number designations. Mine wasn't altered, and got lumped with the same designation as trimmed and otherwise purposely-altered cards. Inconsistent and certainly unfair.

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10-22-2006, 08:19 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI am being asked to defend myself again, so for the sake of my consignors I will. I did remove the ink with an eraser. I do not think removing ink is alteration. I do not think removing ink is cleaning a card. I was asked had I done anything else to any cards in the auciton and I said no. When I was asked the question I was not thinking about auction lot number 96 but if I had I would have still not mentioned it. Erasing pen is not cleaning or doctoring as it has been described by others. It is a $200 in a 2.5 and it looks worse than when it did have writing on it. So it was not in my mind that it needed to be disclosed. Erasing ink or pencil so common in the hobby that it is a joke that I am being slammed for it. This hobby is full of doctors and trimmers etc and none of it is disclosed. Try asking any auction house to disclose anything done to each and every card. I have offered a level of transperency that no other auction house has.

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10-22-2006, 08:22 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielserasing and flattening out a corner is probably not "restoration" Besides,if the guys who grade this stuff cant see erasing then good for Charlie because those professional graders should be able to detect this stuff if they are going to downgrade or reject the card based on it. This has turned into what is considered to us improper or not in fiddling with a card. air brushing for example would probably be considered restoring by the card community and the correct equipment will cost you $3186.45* <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay,send me my eraser back! <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161483739.JPG">

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10-22-2006, 08:23 PM

Posted By: AnonymousJeff, Erasing is not altering. That is the problem. You are parsing the language. I was asked if any card was altered in my auction the answer then was no and it is no now. Erasing is not altering. Erasing is not altering. Erasing is not altering. I never lied about. You are wrong to suggest anything else. If you do not want to bid in my auction because I erased ink fine, but not because I did not disclose it. The question was alteration. It simply is disingenious to confuse the to make me accountable for both.

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10-22-2006, 08:25 PM

Posted By: CharlieWho are those people?

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10-22-2006, 08:25 PM

Posted By: jay behrenssaying erasing isn't cleaning is liek saying putting a card ina screwdown holder isn't pressing a card. Just becuase ink or pencil lead isn't dirt doesn't mean you didn't clean up the card. Remocing anyhting distracting from the card is cleaning. Ink, pencil, dirt, stains, whatever it may be. Then again, i'm sure, like you, others will justify remocal/cleaning of pencil and ink as not cleaning. If it isn't cleaning up a card to make it look better, then what is it? Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 08:26 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI think the misunderstanding here is that Jeff asked you a much more specific question, not whether, using your definition, you had "altered" any cards. He asked whether you had done anything OTHER ThAN PUT THE CARDS IN THE SCREWDOWN, to which you answered, No, nothing else was done. So I think it was a matter of miscommunication. EDITED TO ADD Here is Jeff's exact question: "Charlie, I think all that Mark (and I) are asking is: has anything been done to the cards other than cracking them out and pressing them in a screwdown? Has any effort been made to remove marks? Anything else? That's all."

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10-22-2006, 08:27 PM

Posted By: CharlieIt is erasing.

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10-22-2006, 08:28 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanExcuse me for my ignorance but do PSA and SGC grade cards that they believe have had ink erased? Do they believe that this is not an alteration as Charlie does?

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10-22-2006, 08:28 PM

Posted By: jay behrenssounds more like symantics to me. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 08:29 PM

Posted By: CharliePeter, I agree. The last 24 hours has been pretty stressful and if I misintrepeted the quesiton I apologize. But why I goto the trouble to go through this whole inquest and try get away with the matty which will go for less than what I paid for it. There was never an attempt to deceive anyone with that card. There is nothing subtle about 1/3 of card missing paper and have writing surrounding it.

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10-22-2006, 08:31 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCharlie, Peter is correct. I simply asked if you had done anything to the cards other than pressing and you said no. After evidence of the Matty alt--woops, erasing, came up you then copped to that. So let me be clear: Erasing is something more than nothing. Erasing is something more than nothing. Erasing is something more than nothing. I'll say it one more time with feeling: Erasing is something more than nothing.

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10-22-2006, 08:34 PM

Posted By: JKCharlie has repeatedly stated that he will attempt to remove pencil and ink from cards. I for one think there is nothing wrong with that. I also think that it only adds to charlie's credibility that he has never hid where he draws the line. His position was also well fleshed out before the scans of the matty were posted by jay. Jay - you appear to be on a witch hunt here. There is absolutley nothing nefarious about that matty. Pencil and or ink has been obviously removed from the back. The real problem (as alluded to by leon) is that GAI deemed the card to be worthy of a 2.5 - to me, its no better than a 10 or 20 (in fact, I bet in its current condition, if sent back to sgc, it would get a 10). Again, my opinion, this is more of a problem with gai than anything charlie did. Obviously charlie knows that gai is more lenient with regard to back damage - that is nothing new, I know that and I suspect most people here know that. You have failed to show me anything that charlie has altered (absent pencil/pen removal - which again, I dont feel is an alteration).

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10-22-2006, 08:34 PM

Posted By: B.C.DanielsCharlie human punching bags from the Octagon on Iwo Jima where they slammed each other on a chat board during the Sabbath last night while trying to buy a gym sized eraser! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 08:37 PM

Posted By: CharlieI feel like I am in the ring with Matt Hughes or Randy Coutour.

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10-22-2006, 08:38 PM

Posted By: B.C.Daniels<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/</a> Charlie have you seen it?

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10-22-2006, 08:38 PM

Posted By: CharlieWho were those people in the pictures? Somebody from the board?

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10-22-2006, 08:39 PM

Posted By: CharlieActually I missed that one. I heard it was all about alteration.

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10-22-2006, 08:41 PM

Posted By: B.C.DanielsYou had no issue with me until you opened your Tank Abbott sized mouth. Did I post links to your auctions? Did I create a letter from some yahoo bs account and circulate it? NO Charlie.........I merely teased you about your handles I am well aware of since you have purchased cards from people on this board~

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10-22-2006, 08:43 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJosh, you and others may not consider removing pen and pencil, or pressing out creases alterations, but others do. I give Charlie props for for coming forward, but as was pointed, he along comes foward and admits to things after a long drawn out process. I really have no hard feeling towards Charlie personally. He's made a wonder offer in the past to try and patch up things between after he felt he was out of line. I can respect that. At the same time, I will take anyone to task if I see something questionable. I dont' care who the person is. I'd rate Charlie as dceent enough dealer that is much more forthcoming that most dealers. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 08:43 PM

Posted By: CharlieBrian, I have always liked talking with you. I was kind of backed into a corner and I reacted. I regret it now. Does this mean we can put the blankets in the auction. I will take out the matty and replace it with the blankets.

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10-22-2006, 08:43 PM

Posted By: B.C.DanielsRe: Deleted auction thread October 21 2006, 10:38 PM "Who were those people in the pictures? Somebody from the board " Charlie,are you drinking? look above! I stated in the Subject title it was jay and his brother. (joke-in case Jay wants to hire your dad to sue me or "make me pay" )

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10-22-2006, 08:43 PM

Posted By: JKJeff, For what it is worth, I interpreted both yours and marks question to deal with the original four or five cards in jays other post (including the cy young - which, according to jay, he had the biggest issue with). I did not interpret the question to mean every card in the auction. I dont think the original question was as clear as you may believe it to have been.

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10-22-2006, 08:44 PM

Posted By: CharlieBrian, Which one was Jay?

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10-22-2006, 08:45 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsyou are not implying that piece of crap matty is mine now are you????? you could have hired me to restore it properly for you! I am an expert at air brushing.......... would you like to see some of my art work via oil on canvass? I have restored paintings for three board members!

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10-22-2006, 08:46 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI think you are wrong, Jeff's question was a follow up to Mark's who asked: "Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?"

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10-22-2006, 08:47 PM

Posted By: leonWith all due respect the questions being asked seemed to be general in nature. Did anyone ever ask Charlie "Did you erase ink from the back of the Matty in question?" If he answered "no" then you are correct. To ask if he altered cards in his auction and he answered no...well, from what I have seen, given his and many others definition of altering, I think he answered correctly. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one. With respect to altering as I define it I still have not seen a real shred of evidence more than his twisted words....show me the beef? Where are the cards in his auctions that most would consider altered? Isn't that the real question instead of all of the interrogation?

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10-22-2006, 08:47 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJosh, I disagree. I was referencing Mark's question which was the following: "In your next post, you list list your techiniques for imporving cards (erasing, removing stains, laying down corners, art erasers, etc.) that you have use in the past. Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?" The operative words being, of course, "any of the cards offered in your current auction ...." Leon, of course that is the $64,000 question -- are any of Charlie's cards altered. I don't know myself - which is why I asked him. I'm not accusing him of anything other than being a horrible witness. Mark clearly asked if any cards in his auction had been altered. Mark's definition of 'altered' included erasing. Charlie said no...until he said yes (shades of John Kerry; can't we please bring that topic back to life???). Charlie, I honestly don't mean to give you a hard time. Like Jay said, some of us don't want to buy cards that have erased marks. Simple as that. I'm still bidding on some of the cards in your auction. I think you just got very unecessarily defensive to (at least mine) simple questions.

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10-22-2006, 08:48 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsthe big guy who will kick my ass next time he sees me and all your fault! <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161485248.JPG"> these were not restored,flattened,pressed,soaked or erased in any way! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> next person who "interrogates" Charlie gets sued by me after I go toe to toe with them in some ambiguios octagon in space! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 08:48 PM

Posted By: JKJay - when you post, try and make your posts accurate. I stated that I dont believe erasing pencil/pen to be alteration. I said nothing about pressing a crease and yet you lump me in that group. Now, as far as putting a card in a screwdown - an item designed to hold a card - that is not pressing in my opinion. Pressing would be something akin to wetting the card and rolling to flatten out creases. I never condoned that - nor, to my knowledge, did charlie. What do you hold all of your ungraded cards in? I certainly hope you dont have any in screwdowns because if you do, you will forever be known as a "presser" in my book.

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10-22-2006, 08:49 PM

Posted By: CharlieIt sounds like I was wrong about oh well I tried to get the heat off me. Sorry peter.

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10-22-2006, 08:50 PM

Posted By: leonThat would be a false statement, from the way it looks, but still not change my mind about the altering of cards in his auction. Show me the cards that have been altered, by most people's definition, or let's get out of court? This is all said in friendliness, btw...

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10-22-2006, 08:51 PM

Posted By: JKPeter/Jeff - I stand corrected as to the question itself. However, the thread and the accusations last night revolved around 4 or 5 cards. To me, they were the issue and placed in that context, I misinterpreted the question. But you are right - I did not read the question correctly myself.

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10-22-2006, 08:52 PM

Posted By: CharlieLeon, Did you know your E103 cobb sold for $11000 on ebay?

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10-22-2006, 08:53 PM

Posted By: CharlieBrian, If I can have the blankets implace of the matty lot, I will give you the Matty.

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10-22-2006, 08:54 PM

Posted By: JKJeff/Peter - I will also add, that mark's question was "were any of these techniques used to IMPROVE the cards". Despite the grade, I dont think the matty was improved at all. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 08:54 PM

Posted By: leonI never personally owned that E103. I buy a few cases for display each year from Scott B. so it was probably his...I never owned that card...just to clarify..

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10-22-2006, 08:54 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMy God, the time we have wasted on this thread. I could have billed a few more hours and used the booty to buy some of Charlie's erased cards by now.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-22-2006, 08:54 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsdid you bid on it? just wondering. Don't make me check!

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10-22-2006, 08:56 PM

Posted By: CharlieBroklemen has great stuff at the nationl.

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10-22-2006, 08:56 PM

Posted By: CharlieBid on what?

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10-22-2006, 08:58 PM

Posted By: leonIf that was the E103 Cobby then I did own it. I didn't own the Lajoie pictured in this thread...I guess my head is spinning. If he got 11k for that card he owes me a soda at next years National, if he goes. Congratulations to him. I wish he would have gotten 100k for it. Bless his heart.... Why not? btw, I know that Greg had two E103 Cobby's including mine at the National (or owned at the time)...the other was much nicer than mine...so be careful here...

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10-22-2006, 08:58 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsbut do I still get the $50 the blankets will realize after your faithful try to push me outside when no one is looking at a show in LA or San Fran and you taunt me to go to blows with you? I'm retired and wont do it just so you know. I believe in the 30 pound rule. I will not mess with anyone who is 30 pounds heavier than I at my age. I only weigh 180 so you and Jay will have to go toe to toe. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> bid on what?? The E-103 COBB Charlie what else?

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10-22-2006, 08:59 PM

Posted By: CharlieLeon, I am with you but that is not the vibe I get from this crew. I don't here the champange bottles popping after I got the cobb from a 3 to a 4

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10-22-2006, 09:01 PM

Posted By: CharlieDone. I will make the change tomorrow after I get some rest. I love card shows I am too busy trying to get upgrades to worry about fighting anybody, especially someone who it 0-1 in the UFC, Just joking. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 09:02 PM

Posted By: CharlieI did not bid on the e103 too rich for my blood, I like to play the 200 matty 1.5s so I can get into in a 2.5 in order to make 12.81 net of fees.

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10-22-2006, 09:07 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsyou need to go view that link again.that was NOT the UFC! shall I come to the next big show in full AF uniform with insignias as to where I was in the service? You ignored my challenge of putting coin in Paypal to back up with proof your claims you slammed me with? the "weirdest" person one was the killer Charlie! That one really hurt! What did you miss about my letter Friday morning about a family incident occupying my time and mind and heart. Do you not read e-mails and take any of them to heart or are you the only person you feel tells the truth about anything? You enjoy talking to someone you have these feelings about??? I doubt that very much sir.

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10-22-2006, 09:09 PM

Posted By: CharlieI am sorry if you are having personal problems. It puts baseball cards into perspective.

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10-22-2006, 09:16 PM

Posted By: B.C.DanielsI told you two days ago there was a death in the family. try explaining that to children and dealing with it for a week or so. by your own words this is "your life"! that sounds pretty important. As I stated prior: "money does not change people it exposes them!" I sent you scans just now of a painting I restored from begining to end. should I go into business as a card dealer?

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10-22-2006, 09:21 PM

Posted By: CharlieBrian, I did not receive your email?

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10-22-2006, 09:24 PM

Posted By: B.C.Daniels -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CD [<a href="mailto:cardknowledge@earthlink.net">cardknowledge@earthlink.net</a>] Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:38 PM To: 'WWW.MANONTHEROCK.COM' Subject: RE: Bidding Begins Friday October 20th I cant call now. Putting out a huge fire with family death and my daughter is using my cell phone and will not answer from numbers she does not recognize as instructed. Whatcha need? I don’t have a home phone Charlie my wife got rid of that about four years ago. that is my cell and you can leave a message or just e-mail me whatever but I cant return anyone’s calls now.

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10-22-2006, 09:26 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielshow to airbrush??? or how to do this? <a href="http://physics.bu.edu/~pradeep/hacking.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://physics.bu.edu/~pradeep/hacking.htm</a>

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10-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Posted By: CharlieBrian, We can talk tomorrow. I am very sorry to hear about the death in the family. Charlie

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10-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJosh, I have not owned a screwdown holder since I returned to the hobby 5 years ago. Even I got out in 1991, the only screwdowns I owned were ones with recesses so that there was no pressure being put on the card. I use semi-rigid top loaders for raw cards and cards that get sent to SGC go into rigid top laoders. I can only think of one reason why anyone would take the time to put a card in a screwdown before putting into a semi rigid holder for sending it to a grading sompany . That reason would be to try and press the card some in order to try and minimize any wrinkles/creases. Guess I'm just lazy, but putting a card into a screwdown and then taking it out is a lot of wasted time unless it's serving some purpose. If it isn't to try and press the card and smooth it out, I'd love to hear why it's being done then. Otherwise, it's a lot of effort for no apparent reason. Jay- the only octagon I fought was a stop sign I beat up while drunk <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-22-2006, 09:31 PM

Posted By: B.C.Danielsabout the blankets and the Matty. I will be gone all day tomorrow from 8.30am to dawn with family matters. You get a break from me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> weird is good. I claim insanity at trials and try to choke myself out and knee bar myself as well.

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10-23-2006, 12:06 PM

Posted By: warshawlawGAI. Does anyone there know anything about card grading? With that degree of back damage and that Matty still draws a 2.5? I've seen so many GAI cards that are ridiculously overgraded. Here is my favorite from my collection--two nice big peels on the front and it still rated fair: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161540322.JPG"> Now compare that with this SGC fair Tinker: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1161540380.JPG">

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10-23-2006, 12:27 PM

Posted By: jay behrensIt's true that GAI has gained a reputation for overgrading cards, but their cards do not realize the same prices for the same grades that an SGC or PSA card does. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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10-23-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: BcDanielsyou read through all this ****?