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View Full Version : Who can you compare Derek Jeter going back to 1869.


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09-23-2006, 12:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Is there any player that has had as big of an impact that Derek Jeter has on the Yankees? Look at how many division titles they have, and World Series wins! Maybe Mickey Mantle, Mickey Cockran or Lou gehrig? Any thoughts?<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1158950561.JPG">

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09-23-2006, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I dunno, but that might be the ugliest baseball card I have ever seen...

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09-23-2006, 01:01 PM
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Phil Linz.

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09-23-2006, 01:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>How about a coach's impact? Has anyone had a bigger impact than Leo Mazzone had on the braves? Look what happened to the Braves this year without him.

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09-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I would say George Steinbrenner allowing Jeter to play for a $200 million dollar team hasnt hurt either...

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09-23-2006, 01:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>There was that Ruth guy!!

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09-23-2006, 01:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Joe Tinker.

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09-23-2006, 02:05 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If you want to go all the way back to 1869, George Wright would be his equal. Great hitter, great shortstop, super athlete.

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09-23-2006, 02:13 PM
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...Joe DiMaggio. <br /><br />Even old Joe's teammates say so. It was the subject of a NY Daily News article, perhaps as recent as last weekend.<br /><br />

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09-23-2006, 03:09 PM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>chipper jones has as much value to his team! if your looking for a yankee....joe dimaggio.

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09-23-2006, 03:18 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave Seaborn</b><p>I'll refrain commenting on Jeter since I absolutley despise the Yankees and would not be able to give an objective opinion. (If you can't say anything nice...)<br /><br />I've got to respectfully wonder about Leo Mazzone though. He's gotten an amazing amount of credit for the Braves, but how much of that was just talent? After all, now that he's left Atlanta he's failing miserably here in Baltimore. Looking at the ptichers who pitched for Baltimore last year (apples to apples,)all of them save one (Bedard) has actually had their ERA's go UP!! Where's this guru's magic we heard so much about? Plus, this year he vouched for John Halama and (ugh!) Russ Ortiz - both projects failed horribly. Just an O's fan venting!<br /><br />Now, back to Jeter...

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09-23-2006, 03:36 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Im with you on that, Dave, the Yankees do not inspire.<br /><br />Although, they have had some inspiring players. Gehrig and DiMaggio are two (maybe the only two). Clearly Jeter is not in their league, however, he does do what he does (I think).<br /><br />And what he does is most akin to what John McGraw did as a player (and yes, Jeter is also not in McGraw's league - in any sense). Perhaps more like a Pepper Martin, although I don't know enough about him to draw sufficient parallels.

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09-23-2006, 04:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>Derek Jeter is (in my opinion) The most over-rated player in the history of Baseball. I get so tired of hearing about the intangibles he brings to the table. The fact is that he is a .314 career hitter with about 15 home runs a year, 75 rbi's, and 115 runs. Good stats - yes, clutch player - yes, popular with the ladies - yes, a real difference maker on a team that does not surround him with all stars at EVERY position - NO. If he did not play for the Yankees, nobody would know him or care, and he would not have ANY rings or perhaps not even a chance at making the hall of fame.<br /><br />I went to BaseballReference.com just out of curiousity to see who REALLY is the most comparable player to Jeter. ANd the answer is........................<br /><br />Ray Durham<br /><br />So go ahead, tell me all about the intagibles again and again and again and again and again.

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09-23-2006, 04:55 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Rhys, that is the pretty much the same way I felt about Mattingly in the 80s. Put him on the Twins and Hrbek on the Yankees and we would be hearing about how great a 1B Hrbek and he would have gotten the Gold Gloves that he got and maybe more. The last truely great Yankee was Mantle. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-23-2006, 04:57 PM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Rhys - the top ten compared to Jeter on that list had 5 HOFers in there<br />incl Jackie Robinson. All in all, not bad company.<br /><br />Similar Batters View in Pop-up <br />Compare Stats <br />Ray Durham (844) <br />Arky Vaughan (841) * <br />Travis Jackson (829) * <br />Alvin Dark (824) <br />Vern Stephens (823) <br />Tony Lazzeri (817) * <br />Bill Madlock (817) <br />Lou Boudreau (813) * <br />Jackie Robinson (807) * <br />Jay Bell (805) <br />

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09-23-2006, 05:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Ty Cobb's stats are awesome. But he is, who he is in our eyes, because of intangibles.<br /><br />IMHO.

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09-23-2006, 05:18 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I don't think anyone here can speak with any certainty about Cobb's intangabiles. What we do know for certain is the incredible stats and that is why most of us are in awe of him as a player.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-23-2006, 05:22 PM
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Now really....you cannot compare a present day player's performance with someone<br />of 1969....much less 1869.<br /><br />When you compare Jeter to his contemporaries these past 10 years, he comes out<br /> pretty high in my book. And, what are you "naysayers" going to say when he gets<br />the MVP award this year ?<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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09-23-2006, 05:23 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>MVP? Morneau!!!<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-23-2006, 05:48 PM
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>MVP of the Yankees is ...... Rivera.<br /><br /> So how can Jeter be the MVP?

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09-23-2006, 05:53 PM
Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> I was listening to WFAN in New York about 2 weeks ago and happened upon a conversation involving the notion that Jeter was as talented a ballplayer as Joe D. This is beyond absurd. (Another good place to go is thebaseballpage.com to get a read on just about any player you want. You can look it up, as Casey once said.) I agree with Rhys in that Jeter is very over-rated: if he didn't play in New York he would not be getting as much attention as he does. Yet I think there is much to like about Jeter: he is a very smart player in an era of the dumb; he hits the ball where it's pitched; he puts the team first (although this has been a Yankee trait for a long time). In the 13 years he played, Joe was in 10 World Series and the Yanks won 9 of them. He was the key player on those teams; there are many key players on today's Yanks. Joe is one of the top 5 or 6 players of all time. Mantle is the last great Yankee, maybe the last great player. Jeter would be lucky to place in the top 150 of all time.

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09-23-2006, 06:29 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't know, but living in NY and watching Jeter on a daily basis, I got to tell you the guy is a really good ballplayer. I don't think the Yankees or their fans feel he is overrated. Personally, I think he's on track for Cooperstown.

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09-23-2006, 06:35 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I don't think anyone is arguing that he is not an outstanding ballplayer. The problem is with the hype that comes with playing for Yankees. As has been pointed out, he could do exactly the same thing and the team win the same number of titles and he would go unnoticed comapred to the hype he gets out of NY. Just imagine if Johan Santana were pitching for the Yankees, we'd be hearing about the second coming of Christy Mathewson. Or a more accurate, all the hype that surrounded Dwight Gooden when he burst on the scene.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-23-2006, 06:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>and would vote Jeter the MVP, even though I'm a diehard Twins fan who would love to see Morneau represent. Jeter is the consummate middle infielder and leader, and his plays in the big games accentuate his value. I really don't know what you want a SS to do that he can't. He averages around 110 runs a year, .315 BA, just shy of 200 hits, 20 SB, and plays solid defense. Throw in 15 HR and 75 RBI from the two hole, and that's pretty damn good. As Jay Wolt pointed out, his numbers compare favorably to 5 HOF middle infielders, and that doesn't include defense and intangibles.

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09-23-2006, 06:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

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09-23-2006, 07:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff</b><p>I would compare his leadership and intangibles to Barry Larkin

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09-23-2006, 07:34 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm a New Yorker and not a Yankee fan and I have to admit that Jeter is truly a great player. As another poster wrote, his numbers as a shortstop and (mainly) a leadoff hitter have been fantastic. He's also a fine fielder, a very smart player and has intangibles out the a$$. He is a true winner who always gets the big hit and makes the big plays. You guys keep bringing up Mantle in your arguments against Jeter; uh, many people believe that Mantle was highly overrated due to the team he played for. Here's something to think about: after this year, Jeter will have had just two less seasons than Mantle of 100 RBI or more - and he's got a few years to catch Mantle. No doubt Mantle was the better offensive player and we never got to see what he was truly capable of over the long haul due to injuries and his drinking, but Jeter, as a shortstop, has damn good numbers over his career and is the consummate team player and winner. He's also going to end up with over 3000 hits - how many players in that club can we call overrated???

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09-23-2006, 07:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Jay - Please revisit your comments: <br />"I don't think anyone here can speak with any certainty about Cobb's intangabiles. What we do know for certain is the incredible stats and that is why most of us are in awe of him as a player".<br /><br />And recognize that we have seen these intangibles in others. Jackie Robinson, Maury Wills, Pete Rose and many others; And by their impact can reasonably estimate their effectiveness in a single individual.<br /><br />Although it is true that we did not witness the sharpened spikes threatening the defense then, nor more recently, that part of the personna of the man is similar to a baseball Mike Tyson equivalent.<br /><br />How much attention will a pitcher be able to dedicate to Crawford's at bat with Cobb leading off 1st?, 2nd?, 3rd? What is the impact of intimidation? Serious, imminent fight intimidation? Every day, every play. Only Rose has had that intensity in recent days. And he was far less intimidating, albeit quite intimidating.<br /><br />His stats reflect more than a small portion of his impact on won games, but they only portray a part of the picture. Ruth's stats speak volumes, but Ruth's intangibles do not compare. This is why some would rather have a t206 Red than a Goudey Red.

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09-23-2006, 07:46 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>I always thought Barry Larkin was one of the most overrated players in baseball during his career - he was a decent enough player but he could never stay healthy. That some people push him for the Hall of Fame is beyond ridiculous to me.<br /><br />I don't care for Jeter because I absolutely loathe the Yankees, but have to admit he's a great player. He's a bit overrated, to be sure, but that goes with playing in New York where great players are compared with the greatest and the bums become bums of epic proportions (case in point is A-Rod this season). Jeter's consistency and reliability have been his greatest contributions to the team and if he played for Oakland or the White Sox I'm sure he would be one of my favorites.

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09-23-2006, 08:28 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> The proof that Jeter is overrated is "the catch". Diving into the stands to make one of the greatest plays ive ever seen to quote John Sterling. Everyone knows the catch. When i heard it on the radio on the way home it sounded like the greatest catch ever but when i saw it on replay i said wow that was a nice catch too,i cant wait to see "the catch".....but it never came. It should be referred to as "the bad landing" because the catch was almost routine,it was a running catch,you see about 5 better each day of the season. Its Jeter tho so a running catch in fair territory mind you,with a bad decision(most people wouldve slid,or jumped over and stayed on their feet) at the end.<br /><br /> David Wright actually made a diving catch where he actually dove into the crowd to make the catch last year,much more difficult than the Jeter catch yet ive seen that catch about 200 times less and hes from New York! The even better proof of how overrated that catch is because it was done by Jeter is the fact Pokey Reese made a better catch in the same exact game!! Find a tape of the game,watch the catch by Reese in the same spot and tell me in all honesty its not a better catch.<br /><br /> "The catch" won Jeter 2 gold gloves because he was not the best defensive shortstop either of the last 2 years.Tejada and Vizquel were better in 2004,Cabrera was much better in 2005 and he was a former gold glove winner who earned it.

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09-23-2006, 08:37 PM
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Buddy Biancalana !!!!!!!<br /><br />The man who graduated from the same high school as Robbin Williams<br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biancbu01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biancbu01.shtml</a><br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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09-23-2006, 08:39 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Gold Gloves are awarded by the managers and coaches, not sportswriters. Although I might disagree with a pick or two, I am willing to concede that those guys pretty much know what the hell they're talking about, and that they're not oohed and ahhed by any one particular play.

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09-23-2006, 08:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>Don't give the managers and coaches too much credit - Rafael Palmeiro got a Gold Glove in 1999, a year in which he was at first base for 28 games and DH for 135. I'd be willing to bet that those who vote put about as much thought into it as I do concerning what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow. The managers and coaches tend to just vote the same names year in year out until the regular winners either retire or go into a steep and noticeable decline.

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09-23-2006, 09:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>If they tend to vote the same guys year after year, why is it Jeter didn't win his first until '04, when they could have given it to prior winner Vizquel? Seems to me they saw something in his defensive play, and I'm willing to bet it was more than just "the catch".

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09-23-2006, 09:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>As I said, voters TEND to vote for the same guys year after year - take a look at any list of Gold Glove winners by position and you'll see that award winners often go in streaks. Jeter won in 2004 and 2005, and it would not surprise me to see him win several more in a row until the next guy comes along to win four or five in a row. <br /><br />No doubt the "catch" was a big factor in building the perception of Jeter as a good fielder - seeing the same play over and over on SportsCenter will be a factor in many people's perception whether they would admit it or not. Many people have nothing on which to base their opinions about fielding other than Baseball Tonight highlights or what they read in the paper, and many sportswriters aren't well versed in fielding statistics.<br /><br />Here is an article about how John Dewan and Baseball info solutions charted every single ball put into play for three seasons and came up with a plus/minus rating for each player based on how he stacked up against the average player at his position.<br /><br />Jeter ended up 30th at -64 over three seasons, with Michael Young (-73) the only regular shortstop who fared worse. Adam Everett of Houston had the best rating.<br /><br /><a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=newstatsmakedefenderslik&prov=tsn&type=lgns" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=newstatsmakedefenderslik&prov=tsn&type=lgns</a>

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09-23-2006, 10:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Johnnie LeMaster

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09-23-2006, 10:03 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I disagree Todd and ill use your point to validate it. Before that catch Jeter was thought of as average with a very strong arm and medium range but after that catch he had great range and seeing it everyday along with mentions of his play in the playoffs vs the A's and his jump throws which i consider showing off.You wouldnt teach a kid to catch a grounder in the hole,take 2 steps,jump and then throw.You either throw on the run,circle around the ball,or slide and plant on your back foot.When you make long throws common sense is either get rid of it quick or plant and get something behind it.He does neither with his jump throw and i think youll see alot of kids come along with these improper mechanics because of him.<br /><br /> You add them all together and somehow he went from middle of the road to the best basically overnight which obviously is a flawed thinking

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09-23-2006, 10:06 PM
Posted By: <b>prewarsports</b><p>I think Jeter is a Good player. Good, not great. He might make the Hall of Fame and if he does, I won't complain because there are less worthy people in the Hall. I get so tired though of all the Sportscasters in the country hyping this guy up like he is Ozzie Smith and Babe Ruth rolled into one guy. They all talk about how "If they had one guy to pick to start a team and build around him, it would be Jeter." <br /><br />I REALLY like the Barry Larkin comparison. He was an MVP who won a World Series with his "intangibles" as well. Good, not great, and a border line Hall of Famer who never had the luxury of playing in New York. I think that comparison is Dead on!<br /><br />Lastly, if Jeter wins the Gold Glove this year over Yuniesky Betancourt of Seattle than the voters need to stay up late and Watch some Mariner games. And if you disagree with that statement, you need to stay up and watch some Mariner games as well. He is by far the best defensive Shortstop in the American League and should win his first piece of many Glove-Shaped Bookends this year.<br /><br />

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09-23-2006, 10:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>we'll have to agree to disagree, although frankly, I'm not sure I understand your last post. You still seem hung up on Jeter's catch, but I sincerely doubt the managers and coaches put much stock in just that one play. Then you say he shows off with jump throws from the hole. Again, I have to believe the coaches and managers would not be impressed with a show off, in fact, they may be turnedd off by it. I personally don't see him turn that play that often, but I have to believe he has his reasons. Maybe he feels more comfortable that way, does not want to plant on a slick or uneven infield, I don't know. I do know that Jeter is one of the most fundamentally sound players, in all phases of the game, that I have seen in many years.

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09-23-2006, 10:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I like Prewarsports analogy. I am a Yankee fan and probably watch at least 125 games a year so I have a pretty good feel for how Jeter plays. He is a good fielder who can make the difficult play but occasionally botch the easy one. He has good range, especially on bloops, and a pretty strong arm which is most noticeable on his jump throws when going deep into the hole on a backhand. As a hitter this is his finest season in a while if not his best ever. He doesn't have alot of power but he usually makes contact. He is an excellent base runner who steals more bases than you would expect based on his only slightly above average speed. His best quality is that he plays heads up ball and never takes a play off. I think that he is a shoe in HOFer. In my mind he is a much better all around ball player than Cal Ripken or Ozzie Smith, or most of the shortstops in the HOF for that matter. Combine that with his number of championships and you would expect him to easily make it on the first ballot.

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09-23-2006, 10:54 PM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>"I get so tired though of all the Sportscasters in the country hyping this guy up like he is Ozzie Smith and Babe Ruth rolled into one guy"<br /><br />This statement a few posts ago got me thinking.<br />Ozzie Smith is a Hall Of Famer that was a light hitter<br />w/ little power but was a great defensive short stop.<br /><br />Would you rather have an OK defensive player w/ good range<br />like Jeter that scores 100+ runs a year, always has around 200<br />hits (has 199 right now)and can get you 90 RBI (has 95 right now)<br />and hit ya .315 (hitting .339 right now)<br />OR would you rather have a great defensive player w/ little offensive<br />#'s?<br />Give me Jeter anyday over the Wizard

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09-23-2006, 11:00 PM
Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>Jeter is a great player. He has had some great postseasons, but also had some brutal series that directly contributed to the Yanks losing. Specifically the Sox in '05 and and the D'Backs in '01. <br /><br />His defense is the only part of his game that is vastly over rated. He does fine but his first step is always late. He makes the "catch" because of speed and does have a nice arm.<br /><br />I still think Jeter should be in center and A-Rod at short, but that ship has sailed and hopefully after a another disappointing post season the Yanks will send A-Rod packing. Maybe for Ramirez of all people.

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09-23-2006, 11:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Derek Jeter is an outstanding player, and the fact he's a Yankee has very little to do with it (other than the rings). If the reason for all the Jeter "hype" was solely because he was a Yankee, then we'd hear the same hype for Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Jorge Posada, etc. <br /><br />If I were to compare Jeter to some past player, it would have to be some sort of weird cross between Pete Rose and Ernie Banks. He's got Banks' enthusiasm and raw talent, and some of his pop. He's got Rose's hustle and work ethic, and his ability to make things happen.<br /><br />-Al

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09-23-2006, 11:18 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I dont think you can compare Jeter with other generations of players just based on the fact the midset at shortstop is much more different and id have to think he wouldve been moved to a different position back in the 70s when Smith started.Too big for SS,too much power potential and in the minors he was a horrible defender.You also have to remember Cal Ripken was a 3rd baseman to start,and because of his size,probably a better suited position for him,but he was an underrated defender.<br /><br /> Todd i just meant,coaches and managers see highlights and hear talk just like the rest of us.Theres poor choices for gold glove every year. Jeter doesnt even deserve consideration this year with Bentancourt,Cabrera,Uribe,Gonzalez and Michael Young all much better choices but id be willing to wager even money with anyone that Jeter will win it again.

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09-24-2006, 07:23 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Youa re right, Bernie Williams doesn't get the press that Jeter does, but if you put him on another team, would we even know about Williams name outside of a boxscore? There was a time when the NY media was trying to pass him off as the next Mantle. That doesn't happen with any player from any other team. All it takes is one good season with Yankees and the NY media will hypoe the player beyond believe. Just imagine the hype if Ichiro played from Yankees. We'd have the second coming of Cobb without the nastiness.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 08:11 AM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, Bernie Williams is a lifetime .300 hitter with nearly 2500 hits and multiple gold gloves. Somehow I think he'd rate a mention outside of a boxscore if he played outside of New York. What non-NYers don't seem to appreciate is that the NY press is way harder on NY players than any other market is on their players. That's the reason so many guys can't handle playing here and flourish elsewhere. When ARod played in podunk places such as Texas and Seattle he was the greatest player of all time. In NY, the guy wins the MVP one year and the next year he's a joke in NY. If Bernie Williams played in Minnesota there would be a statue of him outside the stadium. In NY, Bernie is a well-respected because of his professionalism and abilities. And I can't recall him ever being put on a pedestal of the level that Joe D ever was.

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09-24-2006, 08:36 AM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Mattingly: You have to divide his career into two phases, pre-injury and post. In the years before he hurt his back he had numbers that would have put him in the hall if sustained for a normal career:<br /><br />1984 153 603 91 207 44 2 23 110 .343 <br />1985 159 652 107 211 48 3 35 145 .324<br />1986 162 677 117 238 53 2 31 113 .352 <br />1987 141 569 93 186 38 2 30 115 .327 <br />1988 144 599 94 186 37 0 18 88 .311 <br />1989 158 631 79 191 37 2 23 113 .303 <br /><br />Had he been on a really solid team his totals would have been even better in the RBI and run categories. Afterwards, he was a decent average little power hitter. It is like two separate guys.<br /><br />Jeter: He is a great player whose consistency is his enemy. Reminds me of Eddie Murray or Charlie Gehringer in that regard; send him out and he hits .310, scores 100x, drives in 75, plays a solid infield, etc. This year is his first breakout season at the plate. As a shortstop he certainly rates the HOF. <br /><br />Williams: Bernie is a really good player, not great, but really good. I'd compare him to Henrich, Furillo, Grace, Dom DiMaggio, etc. Not a HOFer but a long, sustained excellent career.

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09-24-2006, 09:12 AM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>True about Mattingly; he was a lock for the HOF if he didn't get hurt. The guy was really a great player and his numbers bear this out. He also played the field with grace and was the ultimate professional. This is why he still is revered in NY long after his career ended. I think this is what non-NYers don't realize: if you play with class, don't complain and show up and play hard every day, the press takes care of you. If you make excuses, dog it, or otherwise behave like a jackass, the press will run you out of town. So many guys have come to NY and been driven out of town on a rail by the press and the fans. It's by far the hardest place to play in the country and only the strong survive. What has happened to ARod this year is the perfect example. The guy wins the MVP and the NY press and fans still hate him. Why? Because he makes excuses, doesn't deliver in the clutch and is perceived to not be a winner. That's why Scott Brosious and Tino Martinez are so revered here while ARod, a far superior player, is not. By some people's reasoning, once ARod won the MVP he should have been treated like Babe Ruth. No one is saying Jeter is Albert Pujols; but at SS he is a great player and the consummate winner. And he has won on the biggest stage with the most pressure and done it with grace and humility. NYers care about winning, period. No other city holds its players to such a high standard. Don't blame the NY press for inflating this guy's accomplishments because they don't. Honestly, I can't think of many sports figures in NY that are given a pass or made to appear greater than they are.

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09-24-2006, 10:23 AM
Posted By: <b>Rhett</b><p>I just love how on a team with an average salary of $200 million, it is JETER's intangibles that win championships for New York. <br /><br />On a team with the best coaching staff money can buy, it is Jeter and his clutch hitting who wins championships. <br /><br />On a team with an all-star at every position for the last decade and a half, it is Jeter and his gutsy plays who wins championships. <br /><br />On a team that has the absolute best pitching staff they can buy (not develop), it is Jeter and his great leadership that wins championships.<br /><br />On a team with arguably the best shortstop in history (ARod- who was forced to play out of position, then lambasted by the press for not being Brooks Robinson, and getting no support from his "teammate" and leader, who minus this year is notorious for starting seasons slowly, yet still not publicly supporting his teammate who started slowly, who makes a mere 19 million as opposed to the overpaid guy who makes 25 million), yet if they win this year it will be JETER who gets the credit for winning another championship for New York.<br /><br />-Rhett

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09-24-2006, 10:29 AM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I don't buy the argument about the Yankees buying their titles. LOTS of teams have big payrolls, and LOTS of teams overpay their players.<br /><br />Jeter is the catalyst on the Yankees, and he has been that for ten seasons. <br /><br />Odd to me that with people talking about the best team money can buy, it's Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano - along with Jeter - that kept the Yankees in it this year. It's Mariano Rivera, Bernie, Jeter, and Posada - all home-grown guys - that formed the nucleus of the club. And it's TRADES that have rounded out the bulk of the Yankee roster - I believe there are more free agent acquisitions on the Boston roster than on New York's.<br /><br />-Al

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09-24-2006, 10:33 AM
Posted By: <b>Rhett</b><p>You are right, there are lots of teams that have payrolls like the Yankees, now name five...<br /><br />Edited to add: Sorry for not including Jeter's catalytic abilities in my earlier post as well, my bad.

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09-24-2006, 10:46 AM
Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>Joe DeMaestri

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09-24-2006, 11:09 AM
Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>They haven't won the World Series since they expanded their payroll and brought in all these All-Stars. Look at the roster of the teams that won those championships, there are no other All-Stars(save Bernie Williams) who played in the field, just a bunch of gritty baseball players. <br /><br />Jeter is about 2/3 of the way through his career. Based on 10, 000 at bats his stats will finish somewhere along these lines...310 average...300 HRS...1200 rbi's...400 steals...3, 400 hits. That's a lock for the HOF, not a maybe. Throw in the "intangibles" that people speak of and you have a career that is hard to match. <br /><br />He plays shortstop(the hardest position), he plays in New York(the hardest place to play), he plays to win and he does it with class. I can't believe there are so many "haters" out there. It's just jealousy. <br /><br />Name another shortstop who led their team to multiple championships with stats like he is going to have and you have a very short list. Throw in the "unmeasurable" things and the clutch playoff hitting and defense. <br /><br />Now I know I'm going to get killed for saying this but there is only one player to compare him to...Wagner. Or at least a poor man's verison.

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09-24-2006, 11:15 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Jeter couldn't carry Mantle's jock. It's apples and oranges anyway.

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09-24-2006, 11:17 AM
Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> Any Yankee fan knows Mariano Rivera is the main reason they have won so much in the last 10 Years.

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09-24-2006, 11:32 AM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>There are four other teams with payrolls greater than $100 million - Boston, the Angels, White Sox, and Mets. There are five more with payrolls greater than $90 million - Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, Braves and Giants.<br /><br />So of nine teams with payrolls greater than $90 million, it looks like three of them - the Yanks, Mets, and Dodgers - will make the postseason.<br /><br />You're right. All it takes is a high payroll to have a winning baseball team. Ask the Red Sox, Angels, White Sox, Cubs, Astros, Braves, and Giants, who will all watch the postseason on television. <br /><br />Look, a Yankee hater will always be a Yankee hater; there's nothing I can say that would convince someone to change their mind about that. But to make comments about the Yankees buying their playoff berth when their success this season was driven by home-grown guys, and to make comments that Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter would be nobody's if they weren't in New York, well, comments like that are just plain silly. <br /><br />-Al

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09-24-2006, 11:35 AM
Posted By: <b>aro13</b><p>Jeter is vastly under-rated by those outside of New York who tend to think he is overhyped by the New York media. Regardless of what city he played in, his offensive statistics are worthy of first ballot Hall of Fame induction. <br /><br />However, he is vastly over-rated by those that cite his "intangibles" as being the reason for his greatness. Jeter has had countless opportunities to shine in the post-season and consequently he is going to come through big in some situations but for the most part his post-season hitting with men on base and in scoring position indicates anything but clutch hitting.

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09-24-2006, 11:39 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I don't think anyone is saying that they would be a nobody outside NY. What we are saying is that if you they didn't play in NY, they wouldn't be treated like gods and their feats blown out of proportion. That's pretty much the point I and others have tried to make. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 11:52 AM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It is interesting that a team like the Yankees can spend $200 million and still lose a World Series to a team like the Florida Marlins, who have a payroll closer to a AAA team. I'm not sure I have an explanation for it but I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some kind of salary cap in baseball. It's not necessarily wrong that the Yankees pay their players more than other teams because they are the most famous franchise in any sport and it is New York City, but I think at some point enough is enough. For the amount of money they spend they really aren't getting ideal results and it couldn't hurt to have a little more fiscal balance in the league. The luxury tax isn't working because it hasn't curtailed the Yanks spending and it hasn't made Kansas City any more competitive.

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09-24-2006, 12:31 PM
Posted By: <b>prewarsports</b><p>The things that many people overlook when looking at ANY players stats from todays game is the steroid influence. Would Derek Jeter have so many runs scored if he was not being driven in by Giambi and Sheffield? Would he be on base and get as many good pitches to hit if he was not hitting in front of these guys? <br /><br />Jeter is a slightly above average hitter. He will probably end his career with an average of around .300-.310. Good numbers, but not great. He will get over 3000 hits and that is a good enough number to make the Hall of Fame, but hitting in front of great players his entire career inflates that number quite a bit. He will score a bunch of runs (inflated by the steroid users hitting behind him) and play slightly above average defense, and provide a few memorable plays in the field.<br /><br />I guess the point I am trying to make is that if Jeter was on the Devil Rays, he wouldnt have the same numbers he has. People would pitch around him and nobody would be driving him in. I bet in a place like Kansas City, he would have a career .280 average and get about 180 hits a year, drive in 50 runs and score about 90. <br /><br />Something to think about

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09-24-2006, 01:22 PM
Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Those are just good numbers? For a shortstop? Tough crowd. He seems to be getting penalized for not taking steroids. His numbers might be better if he juiced up but would you have more or less respect for his game? His game isn't all about the numbers anyway. He sets the tone. He's a winner and I think if he played for the Royals or D-Rays then they would probably have good teams. <br /><br />Look at all of the HOF shortstops. Who would you rather have starting for you in the World Series?

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09-24-2006, 01:43 PM
Posted By: <b>aro13</b><p>Yes, Jeter would score less runs in almost any other lineup and drive in less - but that does not make him any less of a hitter. Jeter had his best year in 1999 when the Yankee lineup was nowhere near as formidable as it is today. His career OBP is .386 which is excellent for a shortstop, his career SLG is .461, again excellent for a shortstop. He is a very good basestealer, he hits equally well on the road as he does at Yankee Stadium. By any offensive measuring stick he is a great hitter for a shortstop.

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09-24-2006, 02:01 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> How do you know Jeter never did steroids? Have you seen his size difference from his early years till now? Besides steroids arent just for bulking up,they improve stamina and the ability to heal quicker and if every home run hitter is scrutinized then why isnt every guy who plays every day? Basically no one has proof he never did them so i wouldnt claim he didnt or use it to prove a point when its been said over 50% of players were using at one time.<br /><br /> I do agree with Rhett that his stats are inflated by playing everyday in a lineup like the Yankees have bought thru the years. Its also ridiculous to compare any other teams payroll to theirs because the difference between the Yankees and anyone else is enough to buy another great team of players.Theyre basically working with 3 average teams worth of payroll,or 4-5 below average teams.Until baseball has a salary cap they will keep taking advantage of their seemingly endless means and BUY teams that will make the playoffs every year.With a salary cap of 120 million which could only be afforded by a few teams anyway the Yankees would lose any advantage because of the fact they spent wreckless, taking advantage of their fans who pay ridiculous prices to watch games.Why not spend wisely and invest money into making the neighborhood fans walk thru safer?<br /><br /> They actually havent bought a world series winner yet but they will one of these years and you dont have to be a Yankees hater to realize that.Also their payroll is 220 mil,they added 20 from the Phillies and didnt cut any,and if you want to be technical you would include the luxury tax which is a direct cause of their payroll,and they wouldnt pay without it being so high....so really theyre at 250+ mil.When they win again with a payroll of 125 or less ill give them some credit but until then i just call it how I and everyone else not blinded by pinstripe glasses, sees it.

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09-24-2006, 03:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Here is a list of payrolls directly off of ESPN.com<br /><br /> MLB TEAM PAYROLL (US$) <br />1. NY Yankees 198,662,180 <br />2. Boston 120,100,524 <br />3. LA Angels 103,625,333 <br />4. Chicago Sox 102,875,667 <br />5. NY Mets 100,901,085 <br />6. LA Dodgers 99,176,950 <br />7. Chicago Cubs 94,841,166 <br />8. Atlanta 92,461,852 <br />9. Houston 92,101,503 <br />10. San Francisco 90,862,064 <br />11. Seattle 87,924,500 <br />12. Philadelphia 87,148,333 <br />13. St. Louis 86,912,217 <br />14. Detroit 82,302,069 <br />15. Baltimore 72,585,712 <br />16. Toronto 71,915,000 <br />17. San Diego 68,897,179 <br />18. Texas 65,129,570 <br />19. Minnesota 63,810,048 <br />20. Washington 63,267,500 <br />21. Oakland 62,322,054 <br />22. Cincinnati 59,162,015 <br />23. Arizona 58,884,226 <br />24. Cleveland 56,795,867 <br />25. Milwaukee 50,540,000 <br />26. Kansas City 47,294,000 <br />27. Pittsburgh 46,867,750 <br />28. Colorado 40,791,000 <br />29. Tampa Bay 35,417,967 <br />30. Florida 14,344,500 <br /> <br /><br />Al, you are right there are many teams close to the Yankees (if by "close" you mean around 50%). Looks like $198M doesn't buy the intangibles it once did.<br />-Rhett<br /><br />Edited to add: Earlier I said Jeter made $19M, I just found out he makes a modest $21M

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09-24-2006, 03:18 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The difference between the Yankees and the next highest payroll is $78M. That's more than what half the teams spend on their entire payroll. Or to put it another way, they spend more than the bottom 5 teams combined.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 03:26 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm not a Yankees fan but I'm still capable of appreciating what Jeter is as a ballplayer. The anti-Yankee and NY basis is kind of laughable here. The small ball guys claim that Jeter is overrated cause his power numbers aren't huge. The small town guys claim that the NY press over-praises Jeter (without acknowledging what the NY press has done to ARod this year). The fact is that NY is the toughest place to play and Jeter has won big, with great SS numbers, and done it with style and big plays (did we forget that flip against the A's in the playoffs that got the runner out at home? Think Manny could have made that play?). 3000 hits, 300 HRs, 2000 runs, 400 SBs and all the intangibles ever and he's still overrated? Admit it: you hate him because he's on the Yankees, he makes a lot of money, he's biracial and he's good looking. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-24-2006, 03:31 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I hate him cuz of the women he dates <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 03:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>At last, honesty. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />I hate him for that too.

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09-24-2006, 03:34 PM
Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> I think the Yank's payroll is higher (prorated) after their pickups at the trading deadline. If you figure what they spend on signing talent (for example, the stud catcher Jesus "Forgot last name") and minor league baseball operations, they will be spending about double what the Red Sox spend. This only figures to expand further when they get in the new stadium.

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09-24-2006, 03:38 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The most amazing stat on that list is Florida's. It's not even half of the next highest total, and not even close to what one Yankee superstar makes. Nevertheless, they still are alive for the wild card. How does one explain that?

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09-24-2006, 03:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No doubt that the lack of a true cap has hurt baseball. Notice how in football and basketball any team can win, for real. I find it incredible that the owners don't put their foot down and insist upon it.

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09-24-2006, 03:50 PM
Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Only 3 of the top 11 in payroll are going to make the playoffs. It is an advantage but nothing is guaranteed. The other 5 teams are between 12 and 21. <br /><br />

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09-24-2006, 04:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I always find it interesting that a debate about a player can be turned into a way to bash a team. It always happens with the Yankees.<br /><br />As for the payroll argument... the Yankees pay other teams to compete (but most of the owners pocket the cash)... they fill seats in visiting ballparks. They are more valuable to baseball than anything else. Payroll means nothing to winning. The Yanks have proved that themselves. If anything, bash the Yankees because they can afford to keep their players and can take other teams "problems" with payroll (Abreu & A-Rod). They haven't won a thing since they started spending all this money.<br /><br />As for Jeter... 3000 hits. Enough said. The other players in the line-up didn't put his bat on the ball. And how about the winning HR in the WS against AZ? Or the play to cut the ball off & flip in Oakland? It's hilarious that people here talk about Ray Durham or Phil Linz. Your hatred blinds you. He's a class act and a hell of a shortstop.

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09-24-2006, 04:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No one can really argue with the 3000 hits point. Find me a player on that list that is overrated. Clemente? Musial? Mays? Lajoie? Eddie Collins? Seriously, guys, how can you criticize anyone on that list?

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09-24-2006, 04:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>When all is said and done about this era... he may be one of the only hitters people talk about without suspicion of steroids. Sure, he's dwarfed by the big power guys these days... but he may be one of the few guys that could have actually hit well in the dead ball era. If you watch his approach closely at the plate... he is such a professional hitter. He uses all fields, occasionally hits for power (when needed)...etc It's probably better to compare him to the likes of Gwynn or Boggs than most of the guys in the game today. He won't come close to their averages, but he's more that type of player. He won't peak the way they did, but he's as consistent as they come.

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09-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Let me be the 100th person here that isn't a Jeter fan to say... NOBODY is saying Jeter sucks, or that he is even mediocre. He is a very good ballplayer, he has been a part of some great Yankees teams. What most people that have responded here are saying is that HE gets the credit for everything the Yankees accomplish. Yankees fans will never understand why people don't like him, and non-Yankees fans will never understand why he gets so much credit for being a good (not great) ballplayer. Undoubtedly, Jeter will make it into the Hall if he keeps up what he does. The whole 3000 hits talk is a little premature (~2100 hits currently), so that doesn't even warrant a comment. About the payroll of teams not being a guarantee for success, you are right it doesn't guarantee anything, but is sure as heck helps quite a bit, imagine a team that can pay scrubs $10M and then release them or send them to the bullpen...must be nice. Every time a free agent or disgruntled player is available the first team to get a crack at him is the Yankees because they can afford to [over]pay that player the most, the Red Sox have been pretty bad the last few years as well, but are still behind the Yanks by $80M. <br />-Rhett Yeakley<br /><br />Also, my vote for closest historical ballplayer (obviously a tough thing to do) would be Zach Wheat (quality ballplayer, average HOFer, definately not Joe D. or anybody else a Yankees fan will choose to compare him with)

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09-24-2006, 04:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rhett, no one is dopey enough to say he sucks. But you're saying that a player with over 2100 hits, who just turned 32, who is averaging nearly 200 hits a season for the past 11 years, is just a good player? I'm not a Yankee fan and I have enough clarity and honesty to admit that his numbers as a SS are fantastic over the long haul and he will end up as a first ballot HOF. How many first ballot HOF players are overrated? He hardly gets all the credit for everything the Yankees accomplish. Have you heard of John Wetteland, Mo Rivera and Scott Brosius? Those were the other 3 guys that won the WS MVPs during the Yankees' WS championship run from 96-00. Can't help but notice that Jeter only won one of those. Funny how he didn't win all four considering he gets all the credit for their success. Also, I note in your post that you spent a few words criticizing Jeter and the rest attacking the Yankees. Admit it...you hate them...and hate him because he is their public face.

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09-24-2006, 04:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Jeff, I actually called Jeter a "very" good ballplayer. And reread my post I hardly spent a "few words" criticizing Jeter and the rest attacking the Yanks, it was half an half. I don't hate the Yanks, but they are hardly my favorite team. I do feel strongly that as a "very" good ballplayer Jeter gets too much credit from people like you who already have him hitting 3000 hits, 400 SB's, 300 HR's (he's only about half way there), and 2000 runs. IF he does all those things you think he will, someday he might be elevated to "marginally great" until that time however, he will be relegated to the "very good" category. Also, what NY fans did to Arod this year was grotesque, how do you do that to somebody that just won an MVP award, all booing Yankee fans should be ashamed of themselves. I love it how Yankees fans can justify their actions booing Arod because he makes so much, but last year when Jeter was hitting less than .250 to start the season nobody was booing, but then again he makes so much less than Arod ($25M vs. $21M). Also, would you call Wheat, Manush, etc. great ballplayers or very good? I think we each have a different definition as to what great is, in my opinion great palyers are the best to ever play, Jeter is NOT in that class. <br />-Rhett

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09-24-2006, 05:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I'm finding some of the comments here pretty silly. Lets look at it this way-there are 22 shortstops currently in the HOF:Aparicio, Appling, Bancroft, Banks, Boudreau, Cronin, Davis, Jackson, Jennings, Lloyd, Maranville, Reese, Rizzuto, Sewell, Smith, Tinker, Vaughn, Wagner, Wallace, Ward, Wells and Yount. With the exception of Wagner, and maybe shortstop/first baseman Ernie Banks, who would you rather have than Jeter. I think if Jeter keeps doing what he has been doing he is a first ballot HOFer. BTW, I would take Jeter over soon to be HOFer Cal Ripken any day of the week.

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09-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>It wasn't just the fans that torched ARod, it was the NY press. You know, the NY press that routinely inflates the value of its hometown players simply because they are marginally good. Imagine that happening in Minnesota. The reason ARod gets treated like crap is because he doesn't hit in the clutch, he chokes in October and he whines and makes excuses. As for Jeter, he is the complete opposite. Also, when you have someone as consistent as he is it is not so farfetched to project stats 7 years into the future. With his numbers over the past 11 years, if he plays similarly he'll end up with 300 HRs, 400 steals, 1200 RBI, etc. etc. I guess Albert Pujols isn't a great player yet either cause he's only done what he's done over 7 years or so. The fact is as much it hurts to say it, Jeter is a first ballot HOF player and the press has had nothing to do with it.

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09-24-2006, 05:29 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And finally, Jeter for his career has a .307 batting average and a .413 OBP when hitting with 2 out and men in scoring position. ARod is hitting .270 with a .394 OBP in the same situation for his career. In contrast, David Ortiz, the greatest clutch hitter in baseball is hitting .273 and has a .397 OBP in his career with men in scoring position and 2 out.

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09-24-2006, 06:02 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The truth of stats is that 27-32 are peak performance years. Jeter is on the down side of his career and will not be posting similar numbers until the day he retires, unless he finds the miracle that Bonds found. HRs won't taper off too badly, but SBs will decline very rapidly. Then there is the chance that some freak accdent may occur, ala Puckett getting beaned. IF he stays healthy, I'd be very surpised to see him end his career with 300 HRs and 400 SBs, even if he plays for 10 more years he needs to average 11 HRs and 18 SBs to reach those marks. For a player of his type, the SBs are pretty much out of reach and he may need all 10 years to get the HRs.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Jeff, if you are trying to respond to my comments I don't think you are actually reading them. I never said he was marginally good or anything like that. I also stated in an earlier post that NY press was involved in blasting Arod, I still think it was rediculous for anybody to be blasting him like they did. Projecting stats 7 years into the future is silly, and I will never do that for any player, people did the same thing for Griffey in 1999 and that hasn't turned out to be true at all. Pujols is incredibly dominant (Jeter has never put up Pujols numbers, and never will because thay are 2 totally different types of players.) You keep getting hung up on me not wanting to call Jeter great, so what, in my opinion he is a very good ballplayer, not yet worthy of being called great. <br /><br />Jay, I also would take Jeter on my team before I took Ripken.

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09-24-2006, 06:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rhett, which of the 3000 hit players who weren't caught taking steroids would you considser not to be great?

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09-24-2006, 06:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>To say A-Rod chokes in October isn't borne out by the numbers - he had a lousy division series again the Angels last year, but his career postseason batting average is .305. Jeter edges him out slighly in that category with a .307 average, but he also has four times the postseason at bats as A-Rod does. When you have that amount of at bats and highlight plays in October people will tend to remember the great moments and gloss over the lousy performances.<br /><br />In 1998, Jeter hit .200 in the ALCS against Cleveland, .118 in the 2001 ALCS against Seattle and .148 against Arizona in the 2001 World Series. He also hit .233 and .200 against Boston in the ALCS of 2003 and 2004, respectively. If A-Rod has a series like any of those this year he might be run out of town, while if Jeter has one it will be talked about for a while and forgotten come next season. Certainly A-Rod's demeanor when compared to Jeter's is a factor in how they are treated, but I don't think it is entirely fair.<br /><br />Give A-Rod, or most any other great player, the number of postseason at bats that Jeter has and I would bet he would produce roughly the same number of great moments that Jeter has.<br /><br />I'm not saying Jeter isn't a great player and I would take him one of my teams any day. If he retired today he would still be a Hall of Famer without a doubt, especially when you stack him up against the others already in.

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09-24-2006, 07:18 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'd say Boggs is the weakest of the 3000 hit club. Not much of a fielder and had no speed. All the other members were more than just hitters. Jeter would be among the bottom 5 in the club.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-24-2006, 07:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Mr Peabody. All the Yanks, uh, nevermind.<br /><br />Boughten and forgotten !

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09-24-2006, 07:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jay--I would rank Jeter ahead of these members of the 3000 hit club:Yaz, Molitor, Ripken, Yount, Winfield, Brock, Palmeiro and Boggs.

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09-24-2006, 08:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>What about Carew?

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09-24-2006, 08:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>... on a team of great players. He may in fact be the 2nd best SS on his own team to the much maligned AROD. AROD lacks Jeter's sterling winner's rep but he is also statistically about 2 standard deviations above Jeter and was a gold glove calliber SS before he switched to 3B when he arrived in the Bronx. By the end of his career, AROD will be recognized as easily the greatest 3b ever. Schmidt will have more gold gloves but Arod will annihiliate him in every offensive category (including HRs)<br /><br />Historically, I think of Jeter as something of a combination of Rizutto and Yogi Berra, two other big winner's whose greatness extended well-beyond the boxscore. <br />Berra to me is more valuable, he played the most valuable everyday position and won more than Jeter (so far). Yogi's 10 world series rings is tops of all time. Rizutto was also a winner although I think he was a lesser player than Jeter. Scooter was on the right team at the right time, and benefitted from who he played with: DiMaggio (at first) and then Berra, Mantle, Ford etc., while under the stellar management of Casey Stengel for many of those years. Scooter has 8 rings, twice as many as Jeter.<br /><br />Jeter has played with many HOFers and solid HOF candidates as well: Clemens, Boggs (on his way out), Rivera, AROD, Soriano (he looks like an eventual HOFer right now), Giambi (I bet the writers who love this guy don't hold his steroids against him), Mussina and Randy Johnson. And there are others. Also, he plays for a pretty good manager too -- future HOFer Joe Torre.<br /><br />When he finishes Jeter will clearly be the Yankee's greatest SS but he will have trouble cracking the top 3-4 of SS's in general. Statistically, he will never approach Wagner -- who is still regarded by many as the greatest all around player... ever at any position. I'm not certain he will end up better than Arky Vaughan (check the numbers) or 2-time MVPs at SS Ernie Banks and Cal Ripken, either.

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09-24-2006, 11:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Rhett- $14 million total payroll for players for the Marlins??? That's incredible. That's less than half what USC's players receive each year.

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09-24-2006, 11:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Brian--I have to disagree with you about Vaughan and Ripken. First, Vaughan finished his career in 1946 but was only inducted into the HOF in 1985. He had decent stats but obviously not many of his contemporaries thought of him as a HOFer. We've all seen Ripken play and he isn't close to the player Jeter is. He showed up every day. Other than that he is a marginal HOFer at best.

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09-25-2006, 01:10 AM
Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>There really is nothing that makes Phil Rizzuto a "winner" other than the luck in playing for the right team at the right time - had he played for a marginal team or for a bottom feeder of the time like the Browns or Athletics he would barely be remembered today. <br /><br />You could take most any shortstop and put them on the 1941-56 Yankees and they would have been on just as many World Series winners as Rizzuto. What would make a guy like Rizzuto a winner and someone like Billy Rogell, Woody English, or Marty Marion not one other than Rizzuto's sheer luck of arriving on the scene during the start of a long stretch of Yankee dominance?

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09-25-2006, 08:15 AM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Jay: How is winning 5 batting championships and having 200 hits 7 times weak? The most similar careers per baseball-reference are: <br /><br /> 1. Rod Carew (881) *<br /> 2. Tony Gwynn (851)<br /> 3. Paul Waner (828) *<br /> 4. Sam Rice (807) *<br /> 5. Zack Wheat (802) *<br /> 6. Frankie Frisch (798) *<br /> 7. Roberto Alomar (778)<br /> 8. Tim Raines (768)<br /> 9. Jimmy Ryan (765)<br /> 10. Charlie Gehringer (757) *<br /><br />Not exactly weak company to keep. Let's not also forget that Boggs languished in the minors for at least a couple of seasons beyond his time. Had he come up earlier, he would not have had to hang on for an extra few seasons to get to 3000 hits and we'd be looking at a guy around .335 instead of .328 (which is nothing to sneeze at either). <br /><br />Winfield's on base % and average (.283, .353) are considerably lower than Boggs's (.328, .415). Even slugging % (Boggs .443; Winfield .475) isn't that far apart. Take away the 3000 hits from longevity (took him nearly 2000 more at bats and several more years than Boggs to get there) and he isn't a HOFer. Well, he did top 30 homers twice...<br /><br />Brian: Banks's career is about half playing first base. As a shortstop he was adequate. <br /><br />Greg: I agree that Rizzuto has enjoyed a "halo effect" from being a Yankee; so did Pee Wee Reese from being a Dodger. I think Marty Marion is underrated but really was a cut below the other two. Vaughn was a terrific player; read Bill James's analysis of his career. <br /><br />WE at the Warshaw Group will take Boggs over Winfield any day. Don't hate us because we're pompous <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-25-2006, 09:41 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Adam, among the 3k club he is the weakest player there. Not neccessarily the weakest hitter. Boggs offered nothing to his team other than his BA. He was a marginal fielder and had no speed. Essentially, he was a one tol player and that one tol was exceptional enough to keep him in theleague a long time. Winfield was a decent fielder and had decent speed. Basically, Winfield was a 5 tool players. I'll take that over Boggs any day.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-25-2006, 10:12 AM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Although I always liked Boggs...<br />I agree w/ Jay that Winfield was a far superior player.<br />W/ superior speed (as Jay stated) and power.<br />Winfield had 465 HR's, Boggs 118<br />Winfield had 88 triples, Boggs 61<br />Winfield scored 1669 runs, Boggs 1513<br />Winfiled stole 223 bases, Boggs 24

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09-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Also...Winfield had 7 gold gloves, Boggsie 2

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09-25-2006, 12:50 PM
Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>I always thought of Winfield as a guy who underperformed. He did accumulate some nice career numbers but never really had any monster seasons. He hit .208 with 2 hr's and 9 rbi's in 26 career postseason games. Post season success matters.<br /><br />

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09-25-2006, 01:03 PM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>"Post season success matters"<br />True!<br />But Boggs wasn't that spectacular either, <br />In 9 post season series, he hit .273<br />over 50 points lower then his career reg season mark.<br /><br />And if you are going to give props on Post Season work.<br />Then Jeter's value is higher. This is his 11th year<br />and all 11 years he's been in the post season. He's nicknamed<br />"Mr November" as well.<br />Granted Steinbrenner spends a fortune each year. But Steinbrenner<br />did this as well before Jeter came up and has never had 11 straight<br />post season visits.

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09-25-2006, 01:21 PM
Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Of course Ty Cobb hit over .100 points less than his career average in 17 career postseason games so...<br /><br />I think today's culture places more of an emphasis on winning than in the pre-war days and that it's much harder to win now than it was in the past.

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09-25-2006, 01:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Since Lloyd was commonly referred to as the "Black Honus Wagner," I'd have to take him over Jeter. When asked about this comparison, Wagner replied it was a real compliment to be compared to Lloyd.

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09-25-2006, 03:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>I think what "makes Jeter Jeter" is not really his individual stats but his winning. Although he will have to spend sopme more time excelling to warrant fair statistical comparion with the 3000 hit crew (who he will probably join at some point), his presence at the center of the Yankees' juggernaut the past 10+ years is what makes him great.<br /><br />That's why I compare him to Rizutto (favorably) and Berra (less favorably). He was and is more essential to the Yankees that Rizutto was except (perhaps) for Scooter's MVP season. Jeter is not generally as integral to Yankees' dynasty from the late 40's to the early 60's as Berra.<br /><br />I also mentioned some of the other top SS in major league history and where I think Jeter will stand in that pecking order by the ned of his career. Wagner (and surely Pop Lloyd in the Negro Leagues) I think are out of Jeter's league. Both are among the best, ever at any position. Banks, Arky Vaughan and Ripken I think are who he will ultimately be evaluated against.<br />Banks played most of his career at 1B but his MVP season were as a shortstop, Ripken won MVPs while he was playing all of those games and hit for power (and probably fielded) much better than Jeter. Vaughan is perhaps statistically even more impressive than Ripken. His lifetime average was .318, he never struck out and he walked alot. The low strikeout numbers and high OBA were only recently recognized as especially meaningful Stats with the advent of SABR, and the writings of Bill James (who has Vaughan as the #2 SS of all-time in his Historical Abstract) And, of course, Arky didn't play in New York which made him a lesser name during and right after his career.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughar01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vaughar01.shtml</a><br /><br />Although, as Jay notes, he apparently was not held in such great esteem by the writers since his inducution into Cooperstown was not immediate. However, Vaughan missed some crucial years due to WWII and passed away very young (actually before he was even eligible for the HOF) which might also have dimmed his election prospects. The writers missed alot of great players and did not always elect even the most obvious great players on their first ballot (Joe DiMaggio and Jimmy Foxx, who were contemporaries of Vaughan, for example).